Mini 1468: Legends of the Hidden Temple- Game Over!

[Wisdom]

Why did you find SC's explanation so important at the time, if later on you do nothing with it?

Because I didn't know if I believe you, that thing seemed too weird.
But since he confirmed it happened, there's nothing I can do with it except think that Coug is weird.

[Wisdom]

Because that doesn't make sense as AtE.

[Wisdom]

And however weird it is that he asked you to do that, it's not alignment indicative. It's plain weird.

[Wisdom]

I'm not going to read two pages filled of your bullshit, no. If you want to summarize your points, I'll listen.

Can you summarize your points against me? All I seem to recall is you thinking that I'm trying to protect Coug. Which is stupid because a) we don't have a Coug flip yet,

Partially thanks to you.

The point remains that since you cannot know Coug's alignment (or can you?), you cannot accuse anyone of association with him. You need a flip for that.

[Wisdom]

yes, well, back at you.

Ok, then don't whine I am not acknowleding and things. If you had a genuine case on me, you'd have no problem presenting a summary.

[Wisdom]

What are you doing, Wisdom?

You were on such a good track of being townread by almost everyone

and suddenly you're all over the place with arguments that don't make sense.

I want someone (not Grim) to explain to me why would town ever say this. Especially the bolded part.

[Wisdom]

No that's not weird, that's scummy. Scum care about who townreads who and base their moves on that.

[Wisdom]

@Wisdom: So your reason for voting me is?

Read my posts.

yes, well, back at you.

Ok, then don't whine I am not acknowleding and things. If you had a genuine case on me, you'd have no problem presenting a summary.

That is just wonderful.

The difference is I didn't whine about you not acknowledging things, you whined about not seeing my reasons.

[Wisdom]

Not really; you're arguing that I directed you to read my posts just like you're doing; however I'm only asking you for your points because you're saying I didn't acknowledge them, while you asked on your own without me saying anything.

[Wisdom]

Except I did direct you to the post where my main argument was, so yeah

[Wisdom]

Quick run-through off the top of my head: unnatural response to my disclosure of the QT-happenings

There's nothing unnatural about finding a "please continue posting" request weird, because it

is

weird.

playing dumb when it comes to basic understanding of the english,

Playing dumb? I understood perfectly what you said but it still made no sense to me so I asked for further explanation.

making up a ludicrous story about me making the whole thing up,

I mentioned that once because it seemed ridiculous to me. Ofc in hindsight it would be unreal for you to make that up since Coug would call you out on it, but at that moment that thought crossed my mind anyway.

responding badly (if at all, aside from omgus) to points raised against you,

"badly" is your interpretation of things. I can argue that the points themselves are bad (which they are)

a poorly backed up scumread on me, a poorly backed up switch away from StrangerCoug. Yes, that should be about it.

Not poorly backed up at all. It's based on facts.

And I repeat, that post you directed me to was not an argument. It's something that started as a silly thinking exercise, and that has now suddenly become very convenient. But its convenience does not hide its silliness.

No, it's not silly at all. Again, Majiffy completely discards his scumread on you to vote the bigger wagon, a scumread that initiated the whole thing, a scumread that made him go against the town agreement, and you do nothing about it. You just sheep him. Even if I buy that Majiffy could do that as town (because unfortunately, he could), I do not buy how you do that. You were screaming for Majiffy to give you a case, and saying how scummy he is for doing that while having no reasons and stuff, and then you completely ignore his opportunistic jump to Coug and declare that you intent to sheep him.
Nothing silly about this. These are facts.

[Wisdom]

No I don't buy "he asked me to keep posting" as unique reasons. You had much more important reasons to scumread Majiffy over Coug. I don't see why Majiffy's ego makes him town and why you don't think Majiffy-scum could do that. Based on what has happened in the game, that's the natural thing you should be thinking. Especially given you don't know Majiffy.

[Wisdom]

I townread him before, and I townread him after. It only irritated me to no end when his scumread on you dissappeared and he hoped on Coug.

I agree with your view on him - Majiffy's ego is one of his traits. He even made a whole "cult" about how people have to sheep him, so you get it. And I can accept he did what he did as town. What annoys me is what YOU are doing. You're not supposed to know Majiffy that well to figure out that this is because of his ego. You are supposed to think that he's scum doing that, especially given how you were viewing him before anything happened. I scumread Majiffy for practically the whole game in the first game I played with him, because this attitude annoyed me and I thought it was scum attitude. It happens a lot to me too, many people scumread me in their first game with me, because I'm not that different from Majiffy in that aspect. So I expect you, who don't know Majiffy, to naturally have this response too. Not instantly townread him forgetting everything that happened. It just doesn't feel natural.

[Wisdom]

So you agree with my view on him. This proves that I do know Majiffy, or at least I know him as well as you do. Yet you said "especially given you don't know Majiffy", after having read a description of him by me that you agree with.

No, it doesn't prove that, and that's precisely my issue.

[Wisdom]

This reeks. It reeks of scum.

You can't be possibly expecting me to take you seriously when you post things like that.
Scum are telling people what they are supposed to think?
Really now?

[Wisdom]

@720
Do you really think I care about how you read me? This is becoming really stupid. No, I won't do any of this, Grim. MissD were scummy, so I read them as scummy. You're scummy, so I read you as scummy. I don't tunnel on people just because I think it's fun, I do it because I believe they're scum. Because they do things that make me believe they're scum.

"absolution of my sins"? lawl. die.

[Wisdom]

mollie have you played with Coug before?

[Wisdom]

Amrun is prolly scum

[Wisdom]

It doesn't, because mollie can't read. She thought that you meant that it bugs you as in you find it scummy.

[Wisdom]

thought so

[Wisdom]

She said that she finds him scummy but the qt thing bugs her (she finds it town). You can't read.
And you go and call someone you haven't played before confscum, without realizing that what's annoying you might be playstyle.

[Wisdom]

wtf are you talking about. That's not even why you're scum

[Wisdom]

Grim/Amrun/NS and one of {AP, Elyse, Safety} is my current guess.

pedit: lol

[Wisdom]

So will you challenge me, Venmar? Or will we follow the plan for once?

[Wisdom]

StrangerCoug (7) - enomis, Venmar, Majiffy, pirate mollie,

Grimgroove, Nobody Special, Amrun

,

I don't like any of these, but it's certain they are not all scum; 3 of them voting in a row seems unlikely. So scratch what I said.

[Wisdom]

I don't see how she's town.
She agrees with my scenario that Majiffy-Grim both scum might be feasible (497), votes Majiffy, yet ends up calling me nonsensical and saying that it's not likely Majiffy challenged 3/4 of his scumteam (which isn't even what I argued)(661) and votes Coug while saying that "town has devolved into silliness and petty arguments".(735) Arguments that she agreed they might be true earlier.

[Wisdom]

Not to mention that like Grim, she was unfazed by Majiffy discarding his Grim scumread.
It shocks me that anyone at all is unfazed by that considering Majiffy even ignored the town plan so he can challenge Grim, yet then forgot about him, but those that scumread/wanted to lynch Majiffy and then completely ignored that and wanted to lynch Coug instead are the worst.

[Wisdom]

mollie my issue is with those that scumread Majiffy yet did not care when he did that. It's not natural. You know Majiffy, I know him to some extent and can see him doing it as town, but not everyone does and not everyone can ignore it like that.

[Wisdom]

Awesome.
Well this is at least better. AP or NS have good chances of being scum.

[Wisdom]

Majiffy is Grim town now that Coug flipped town?

[Wisdom]

Really Grim?
But how, I thought that your scumread made sense because I was protecting Coug?

[Wisdom]

Amongst other things.

Which all had to do with Coug.

[Wisdom]

The current lynchpool does have scum though, and you aren't voting them so far.

[Wisdom]

I don't know what to think about Venmar btw. I've kind of written him off as a VI/Typical person who tunnels on me when they first play with me but he could easily be scum ignoring the game and just tunneling on one person because it's convenient.

[Wisdom]

The lynchpool is very nice, but you're not voting scum, Venmar.

[Wisdom]

Okay.
Can we have your reasons for voting/challenging me? You've tunneled on me all game so far and you've never actually said anything.

[Wisdom]

Can't say I like all these quick votes on AP though

[Wisdom]

Can you remind us why AP is scum?

[Wisdom]

Venmar you'll never be able to convince anyone like that, just saying

[Wisdom]

Yeah okay. I had enough of this.

VOTE: Venmar

Either explain yourself or die. Acting like a VI is not acceptable at some point.

[Wisdom]

I dropped you because I figured you're just stupid. I won't tolerate it for the whole game though, no.

[Wisdom]

pfft
UNVOTE:
I really don't see scum pushing a mislynch on me when they know they will not succeed.
He's just stupid.

VOTE: NS
let's go there instead.

[Wisdom]

I'm going to ignore you from now on if you don't mind

[Wisdom]

Have you played with AP before? Can you be sure it's not just how he plays?

[Wisdom]

No, I actually had a scumread, but I dislike how everyone is voting him and it's making me think that's what scum want.

[Wisdom]

Amrun's reasons aren't that good btw.

[Wisdom]

Are you familiar with his scum game? Does it look like his play here?

[Wisdom]

If it helps, NS asked me "Why are you so defensive with Amrun, have you not played with her before?" (regarding what happened towards the beginning of the game with the plan etc), then he realized I haven't and said so. I asked him if Amrun usually suggests plans like this and he said that she does.
That's what has happened in our QT more or less, since he's as active there as he is here.

[Wisdom]

I'm unsure about Wisdom. Mollie is right about dumb arguments being a scumtell from him,

what
Where did you see my scumgame, Majiffy?
And this is wrong actually, my arguments are far more dumber when I am town, and you have witnessed it.
What the fuck is this shit?

[Wisdom]

But Wisdom should know I'm town.

Do you want to take a step back and reread your game?

[Wisdom]

I've definitely played with YouScum once or twice.

No, you haven't. You have played 3 games with me, and I was town in all 3 of them.

[Wisdom]

Actually 5.
Chosen, Diffusion, Duck Duck Goose, 8matrix, and a newbie.
And I was town in all 5.
Plus the one you modded, in which I also was town.

[Wisdom]

@Grimgroove
The only thing that I feel is completely different from the game I played with you and you were scum is how you criticize your own play. You didn't do that at all in that game. But why should I assume that it's not an act?

[Wisdom]

I'm becoming less certain. I'm just telling you, if you are town, take a step back and see why someone would think you're scum. Because claiming that "He HAD to know I am town" is too selfish.

[Wisdom]

You weren't scum in Chosen? Also I thought it was more than that.

No I was town and we tunneled on each other for tons of pages.
So, where did you see my scumgame?

[Wisdom]

Yeah that's not exactly a minor detail though, is it?

[Wisdom]

That's not my point.
You argued that mollie is right about my scumgame thinking that you've seen it.
Now that you know that you've not seen it, and instead what you were thinking is my scumgame was my towngame, does your read on me change?

[Wisdom]

Since when is calling bullshit on the bullshit you're saying hyper-defensive?

[Wisdom]

Or maybe I find it weird that you're not changing the read on your own after realizing that you're wrong and I'm pointing it out.

[Wisdom]

No way does Wisdom reverse his ap-scum read for such a very stupid reason.

It's too conspicuous for a scum on town or scum on scum interaction.

Not sure what you meant by that, no way I do that as town or as scum?

[Wisdom]

If you think that will make me stop pushing you, you're an idiot.

Whatever. What's your case on AP?

[Wisdom]

Wisdom are you scumreading me, and if so, why? Also when did this start?

I'm feeling you're not reading the game.

[Wisdom]

No way does Wisdom reverse his ap-scum read for such a very stupid reason.

It's too conspicuous for a scum on town or scum on scum interaction.

Not sure what you meant by that, no way I do that as town or as scum?

Oops, as town.

My brain is fried.

So you're calling me scum or what?
Could you explain this a little better?

[Wisdom]

I found it scummy when you dropped your Grimgroove scumread, a scumread that made you challenge him, in order to vote the bigger wagon.
Other than that I've found you town.
I've said all of this before.

[Wisdom]

I do realize that, but you voted Grim, so you can obviously scumread him more.

[Wisdom]

I unvoted Wisdom. It's actually based on an argument I read somewhere else but that I alo believe in: someone who is convinced about his arguments and really believes in them is town, no matter how wrong these arguments.
He really seems to believe in his arguments very strongly. He makes a stance and barely budges. He's known for tunneling, for being stubborn, at least as town. I don't know his scum meta, but the fact that his points against me don't make any sense at all don't make him scum. And the fact he keeps defending and blieving them makes him lean town.

That's a pretty bad reason to townread me. I believe in my arguments very strongly regardless of alignment.
Also my points make perfect sense to me.

[Wisdom]

Well, at least I give the impression I believe them. But you would hardly tell the difference.

[Wisdom]

That's better.

So, what you said about AP; do you think that "being wrong" was scummy? And what exactly was he wrong about?

[Wisdom]

It scares me that I agree too much with your scumreads

[Wisdom]

Both Elyse and Amrun are voting AP. Do you think they're both bussing?

[Wisdom]

I think that my strongest scumread is enomis however. I just read his ISO and it's all kinds of terrible.

[Wisdom]

Right now I think: enomis/AP/Amrun/{Safety or Elyse} with Safety more likely than Elyse.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: AP

[Wisdom]

If it helps, NS asked me "Why are you so defensive with Amrun, have you not played with her before?" (regarding what happened towards the beginning of the game with the plan etc), then he realized I haven't and said so. I asked him if Amrun usually suggests plans like this and he said that she does.
That's what has happened in our QT more or less, since he's as active there as he is here.

[Wisdom]

If you think Amrun and I have been cross bussing for no reason since D1 then you need to reevaluate your life choices.

You can cross bus all you want when the votes don't matter until there's a challenge. That's the trick.

[Wisdom]

All the scumreads I listed are individual, yeah.

[Wisdom]

Why the hell are you self-voting?

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, way to fucking ignore pieces of the picture that are inconvenient to your world view (re Amrun and me).

What?
What am I ignoring?

[Wisdom]

UNVOTE:

[Wisdom]

How does

enomis/Amrun/Elyse/Safety sound to you?

[Wisdom]

How does

enomis/Amrun/Elyse/Safety sound to you?

but that would mean all scum are in 2 pairs
what are the chances of that? xD

[Wisdom]

I'd lynch Venmar if he's going to continue being useless all game. Or NS because equally he will most likely be lurking all game. But both of those are more policy lynches than anything.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: venmar

[Wisdom]

Wisdom i'm not being useless, i'm trying to eliminate a scum from the game.

No, you aren't, and that's exactly why you're useless.

Let's say you get me lynched, Venmar. Who will you go after then? What are your other reads? With reasons and examples please.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom's retardedly opportunistic, waffly, and flip-floppy stance on me is so painfully scummy

Please show us where I have been opportunistic or waffly. As for my stance on you, I have made it completely clear.

[Wisdom]

If Wisdom truly thinks I am the typical player who tunnels him the first game that they play with him, he should have little reason to be voting for me for similar reasons. Right now, Wisdom is only voting for me because he thinks I am being retarded and useless. Sorry Wisdom, that is such a classic discredit case that I think I will call you out on it.

Right now I am voting you because the pool you created is bad. My four scumreads are outside it. I have to compromise for you or NS, and I'm feeling that you'll be less useful than NS. I don't think you are scum, because scum wouldn't be that stupid to expect to get me lynched like that, but you need to die because you don't show any interest in actual scumhunting.

Do you want to prove that wrong? Tell me what you think of enomis, Amrun, Elyse, Safety. Use some of that effort you used to make that Wisdom-lynch campaign and actually scumhunt.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom is waffly and flip-floppy because his read on me sporadically changes depending on how much I am pushing him. He changes it to serve his purpose, he attacks me and I attack him, ignores me when I ignore him. It's purely a scum motivated tactic for survival.

Yeah. I'm in such danger of getting lynched that I have to constantly change my read on you to survive. Are you seriously that stupid?

[Wisdom]

- i.e; If I am pushing him, he thinks i'm scum. If i'm not, he no longer things im scum. If I come back to pushing him, he thinks im scum again. CAN SOMEONE PLASE REALISE THIS SHIT.

Except for the part I don't think you're scum.

[Wisdom]

Amrun - Town
Elyse - Probably Town
Safety - Null
Enomis - Who is this?

That's not giving reads. I want reasons. And don't you "who is this" me, go and ISO enomis.

[Wisdom]

So, if Wisdom thinks i'm useless but also a typical player who tunnels him in our first game together, it makes his vote on me opportunistic in contrast to AngryPidgeons small push on me, not to mention it makes his vote look like sheep in a way. You see, Wisdom made up a reason to make an excuse to not vote me in the first place, but he doesn't hesitate to vote for me if it serves his scummy purpose. It's very opportunistic, because he doesn't push my lynch ( something he knows wouldn't happen ) when he thinks it's futile, so he flips his read on me a bit until he starts insulting me as a player, and then when AngryPidgeon shows interest in a Venmar-scumread, he flips YET AGAIN, DROPS HIS AP SCUMREAD, and votes for me because it, once again, serves his purpose. NOBODY NOTICE THIS? MMMMK.

So the fact that one person shows interest is enough for me to change from "I won't push it because it won't happen" to "let's push it"? Last I checked, it takes 6 to lynch, not 2. Besides, you think that both me and AP are scum, right? If so, why would I wait for AP to show interest in thread? I would know that he's going to be pushing it anyway.
Nope. Your logic is faulty.

[Wisdom]

Don't tell me what to do, you're not my mother. That's called giving reads, suck it up.

No, it isn't. This is called being useless.

[Wisdom]

Furthermore, if i'm reading Wisdom's logic correctly, he thinks people pushing "town" lynches are useless and worth being lynched. By that logic, Wisdom should be pushing the lynches of EVERYONE on the Strangercoug wagon. No, Wisdom, you cannot deny this, shut up. His logic in general is very flexible and weak really. NOPE, NOBODY WILL THINK ABOUT THIS, CAUSE FUUUUUCK VENMAR

No, you're not reading it correctly, you're just forcing things. Town lynch town all the time, whoever lynches town is not automatically scum.

[Wisdom]

Wisdom just argues for the sake of arguing, he is super hyper defensive about himself and goes to a length to spam post in his defence. This is scummy since he clogs up the thread on purpose. He argues just for the sake of arguing which is scummy and anti-town, since town should have no town motivation to clog up the thread.

Here's a typical example of why Venmar can't be scum. Scum can't push this bullshit for a serious accusation. Anyone's simple 1 minute search will tell them that Wisdom is hyperactive regardless of alignment and could care less if the thread gets "clogged up" or not.

[Wisdom]

#ignoringwisdomasofthispost

This alone shows the strength of your arguments. You're not even willing to support them after it gets pointed out that they're bullshit.

[Wisdom]

What post was Venmar referring to in the first place?

He supported that my logic was that whoever lynches town is scum and has to be lynched. I never posted anything like this, so I have no clue where he got it from. It's forced anyway.

[Wisdom]

I swear, if you guys lynch me while thinking I am town... UAGUGHAUFGAUFG

There's no better alternative though. Unless you want to stop being stupid and start playing the game normally, I don't think there's a better lynch.

[Wisdom]

There's a logical fallacy in the questions he's asked Wisdom

Huh?

[Wisdom]

No, he clearly meant why I'm being defensive.
However I have no clue why everyone calls attacking faulty/scummy posts as being defensive.

[Wisdom]

Elyse is town, though, idk what you guys are smoking.

Why?

[Wisdom]

Why would she put her neck out for safety dance like that as scum, being who he is?

Where did she do that?

[Wisdom]

That means nothing. Scum can reflect townish thoughts too. They want to look town, after all. I want you to explain to me what is townish about her posts.

[Wisdom]

That means nothing. Scum can reflect townish thoughts too.

And it means even less since I don't know if you're town.

[Wisdom]

Damn it Elyse looks town with that post now.
Who the fuck is scum in this game

@Elyse
About your point about Venmar; I refuse to see how someone who does absolutely nothing other than spam "LETS LYNCH WISDOM" is helpful for the town.
About AP I think that his posts were genuine. I did have a scumread on him previously, but the quick votes on him and his recent votes make me think he's town.

[Wisdom]

and his recent posts*

[Wisdom]

You can still start playing properly and you'll have friends!
(@Venmar)

[Wisdom]

She did say that the first scumteam is what she considers most likely though.

[Wisdom]

it's that nobody gives a fuck about what I have to say in regards to reads.

Probably because you don't give any reads, and when you are forced to, you cannot explain them.

[Wisdom]

I'm just done arguing with a total moron that I don't think I have the nerve of talking to anymore.

Did you think you'll just throw your bullshit at me and I'll stay silent? Sorry to disappoint you.

[Wisdom]

Did you think I still GAF about you? Lol nope.

That's cool, but you'll still have to give and explain reads.

[Wisdom]

I dislike 1005 a lot btw

[Wisdom]

AP, give us your final reads on everyone before the flip please

[Wisdom]

I think if you were town you wouldn't say it like that.
You'd go "Obviously town you idiots"

[Wisdom]

Mollie has a firm belief in WisdomScum

I wanna hear about that

[Wisdom]

We're also both expecting AP to flip town.

I thought you were voting him..?

[Wisdom]

And why did you want to unvote?

[Wisdom]

Polygamy.

As for that, tell mollie to reread 218, then reread it again.

[Wisdom]

he pushed and pushed and pushed. I think I am seeing the same thing here I dunno I want to hear from eno about this (again) cos he was in that game.

And who exactly am I pushing and pushing and pushing here mollie?
ffs, don't fucking do this. I told you from the beginning that I knew that you'll get paranoid in the very next game with me, like Mara did and I am sure Nacho will too. Stop it while you can.

[Wisdom]

AP's reactions look to me like he realized the hammer was fake (there's no way someone doesn't know how many votes they have, especially when they have self-voted), and used that to plant town looking reactions. The post about lynching Elyse next was exactly that.

[Wisdom]

Yes, I would expect town-AP to do either of these:

a) Realize that the hammer was fake and say it

b) Not realize it was fake and rage at how he got mislynched (because if we assume that the anger he displayed earlier was genuine, then the same and possibly more should be expected from a hammer.

His response was instead a cautious, relatively calm "lynch this person next". I really think that what happened is he realized it was fake (which is the most likely since as I said above he had self-voted and thus he knew how many votes he had), and tried to act like a townie would.

[Wisdom]

okay then well why is it I can usually get a town read on you early and in polygamy I didn't but instead listened to nacho and in this game I am not getting it either?

I don't know how you get your townreads, therefore I can't help you with that.

[Wisdom]

VOTE: AngryPidgeon

[Wisdom]

mollie listen.
This is what happened.
AP self-voted and brought himself to L-1.
I instantly unvoted, which brought him to L-2.
Then after much discussion and no votes, Venmar votes him and claims it was the hammer.
Do you really think AP didn't know it wasn't fake?

pedit: I cannot work with herds, you know me.

[Wisdom]

Also the self-vote didn't happen because he gave up. The self-vote happened because he wanted to "test" if Grimgroove would hammer him or not.

pedit: you cannot vote Amrun

[Wisdom]

mollie I know you're tl;dr'ing everything but please stop doing that for a moment.
AP claimed that his selfvote was to test if Grimgroove would hammer or not. He didn't give up. Don't misunderstand things. Please go back and read it again.

[Wisdom]

Ok I thought you were talking about the self-vote, because you said that ffery unvoted in some other game etc.

Again, regarding the post-fake hammer stuff. Read it with the mindset that AP is scum who knows this is a fake hammer and says "This is a reaction test, let's act like I'm town and just got hammered". Tell me if it makes sense.

[Wisdom]

I'll try to summarize the whole situation again.

-AP is at L-2.
-Grim claims that he wants AP lynched, but doesn't vote him.
-AP self-votes, and dares Grim to hammer him (AP now at L-1)
-Wisdom instantly unvotes (AP back to L-2, AP is obviously aware of this since it happened instantly and AP posted after that a lot.)
-After lots of discussion, Venmar votes AP. Doesn't say that he hammers or anything.
-

This is important

: AP votes Venmar back when that happens, claiming that a Venmar lynch is what has to happen after all. What does that mean?

That AP knows he isn't hammered.

-Amrun goes "omg was that a hammer?" and Venmar takes the opportunity and states that it was a hammer.
-AP then acts like he doesn't know that it is a hammer, and after a long delay, he says "okay lynch Elyse tomorrow". Not the rage you'd expect after the supposed frustration he had shown in his most recent posts, nothing. Just a caution, simple request to lynch someone. And the same applies to the reads he gave when I asked him. And the same applies to the answer to Venmar's question about his alignment: Just "Town".

Read everything that happened again if you think my summary does not reflect the truth. AP obviously knew the hammer was fake. Obviously. As town, he'd have no reason to act like he doesn't know and do all this stuff. He'd go "No Venmar, you didn't hammer." or something. This is scum-AP knowing it's a reaction test and trying to act like a hammered townie.

[Wisdom]

Does anyone know what games AP has been mislynched in? I'd like to see what his reactions were then (granted, there might be a time gap/ meta change since then, but still)

[Wisdom]

Unvote why, mollie? What does the unvote have to do with anything? I unvoted instantly, he wasn't in any danger.

[Wisdom]

I feel like you two are both arguing about different events and assuming the other is talking about that same event.

@mollie/wisdom

ok can mollie explain wtf shes talking about then?

[Wisdom]

Majiffy which part of -he knew he was not hammered, he even tried to push a Venmar lynch- you don't understand?

[Wisdom]

I think he knew he was hammered

You mean not hammered

[Wisdom]

Alright listen up.
I found the two games that AP was mislynched as town.
In one of them, someone did the same thing that happened here; a fake hammer/reaction test.
Read and see what AP's reaction was.

[Wisdom]

And this is the other one, if anyone cares. In both of them, AP spent his dying moments trying to actively advise the town on who they should go after next. Nothing like a simple "please lynch Elyse, thanks".

[Wisdom]

Ok that situation is entirely different on account of the fact that the fake hammer was by someone already on the wagon. Venmar was not on the wagon.

Boo on you, Wisdom. Boo on you.

How does that matter? In both cases it was an obvious reaction test. As town, AP instantly said "No, that's not a hammer", while here he acted like it was a hammer while he showed one post earlier that he knew it wasn't.

[Wisdom]

Simplified, but you guys are acting like it is impossible for:
AP to have voted, not thinking there was a hammer.
A big situation arises around it being a hammer.
And AP then thinking he was hammered, and acting accordingly.

It isn't outside the realm of possibility and it seems like there are a number of diehard positions being taken that assume it to be such that it IS outside the realm of possibility.

Yes, I've thought of that possibility and I consider it completely impossible simply because someone who self-votes knows very well how many votes are on them. He was here all the time from his self-vote till the fake hammer. If there were any votes after my unvote, he would have seen them and he would be alerted he's at L-1 again.

But even if we consider that it's somehow possible and that AP genuinely thought he got hammered - his reactions are not town reactions. No rage, no active guidelines to the town on who to lynch, nothing. See those two games, see what he did in them when he was about to get lynched.

[Wisdom]

Second link doesn't go directly to the hammer/his reaction, ISO + ctrl F finds no results for "hammer". Please remedy.

ISO and go towards the end of his posts, duh.

And it matters because he knew someone ALREADY ON HIS WAGON can't hammer him, you fucking twit. This is someone OFF THE WAGON voting him. I mean, if you can't grasp the difference, I don't know what to say to you other than considering an hero.

That assumes that AP was paying attention to his votes in that game, right? He knew the hammerer was voting him already, so he spotted the test instantly.
So on the same assumption, knowing of what votes are on him, he'd know that Venmar's vote is L-1 and not hammer.
There's really no significant difference, both rely on knowledge of what players are on his wagon. And in our game, seeing as he even self-voted, it is guaranteed that this exists. So he noticed it there, he noticed it here. The difference is he isn't town here.

[Wisdom]

Like I said, the simple "Lynch Elyse next, thanks" was nothing like what he did in his town games. It was simply an attempt to fake a hammered townie. Again, read those two games and read how he actively tried to advise the town on what people they should go after next. Here he only gave us reads after I asked him to, and nothing other than that simple thing about Elyse.

pedit:
"Arent you already in my wagon" shows that he instantly figured something's wrong, he instantly figured this is a test. He checked and confirmed. Did he do that here? No. He took Venmar's "Yes I hammered" as granted and started acting. If we follow your scenario, that he was thinking he was not hammered, but he was confused by Venmar and Amrun's statements, wouldn't he think that something is wrong, like he did in that game? Wouldn't he go check and come back to say "Nope, reaction test" like in that game?

[Wisdom]

Jiffy listen to me.
Let's assume it's like you say.
He thinks he's not hammered, then the whole fuzz about the vote being a hammer confuses him.
What does the linked game show us that he would do in that situation? He would go check, confirm things are like he thought, and he would come back to state "Nope, you didn't hammer. Silly reaction test." like he did in that game.
Instead, he takes Venmar's declaration for granted, he doesn't check, and he switches from posting about how we should lynch Venmar today, to posting about how we should lynch Elyse tomorrow.

[Wisdom]

Kay, when you aren't tired, come and explain to me where I'm wrong.

[Wisdom]

So Majiffy is scum because he's reading you as scum?

Also, did you read what AP did? What's your opinion?

[Wisdom]

And I believe that if people acted according to fucking logic for once, it would be nice.

UNVOTE:

I cannot scumhunt when things like AP's real life and what the fuck not affect our game.

[Wisdom]

So you don't act based on what AP explained happened, you act based on a ridiculous scenario Majiffy brought up that defies all logic. Because players never have to check how many votes have on them, never have to check if someone is reaction test, ITS THE FUCKING DEFAULT TO BE BUSY BECAUSE OF RL AND ASSUME WHOEVER SAYS "HAMMER" MEANT HAMMER. Yes, perfect logic.

[Wisdom]

Are you retarded? Of course I believe his story, hence why I unvoted, the thing is I cannot fucking accept that someone comes and ruins logic with fucking RL. I cannot play when things that should make sense don't because of things that don't belong in this game.

[Wisdom]

Great, Grimgroove is scum.

enomis/Safety/Grimgroove. One left.

[Wisdom]

AP is town because apparently what happens in this game doesn't matter, let's tell the tale of our life to appear obvtown instead.
Amrun and Venmar (especially Amrun) are town as balls for the reaction test.
Elyse is also town for following the same logic I and Amrun did and every townie should.
Majiffy and mollie are certainly town.
I guess that leaves NS for the fourth scum.

VOTE: NS

[Wisdom]

No I won't clarify shit from now on. I'll just do whatever I want because apparently saying tales about your life defies logic.

[Wisdom]

Elyse could actually be scum. Reading her posts all she did was go "yes what Wisdom said" instead of presenting logic on her own.

So if NS is wrong, then it's enomis/Safety/Grim/Elyse.

[Wisdom]

Not sure which word you don't understand in that quote

[Wisdom]

lol
have you read the game?

[Wisdom]

I'm not going to argue that. The reaction test was obviously a reaction test. If you think otherwise, you're an idiot.

[Wisdom]

1. enomis/Safety/Grimgroove/NS

2. enomis/Safety/Grimgroove/Elyse

3. enomis/Safety/NS/Elyse

These are the 3 possibilities everyone, take your pick. Everyone else is town.

[Wisdom]

Go. fucking. read. the. game.

[Wisdom]

^Talk about sheeping Wisdom

[Wisdom]

Elyse apparently thinks I need an echo or something.

[Wisdom]

suuure

[Wisdom]

Yeah because apparently the best strategy for me as scum would be to sheep you. Just stop.

Then why are you doing it? I see no town motivation for it.

[Wisdom]

Instead of voting NS, you should vote Wisdom.

Back to being retarded already?

[Wisdom]

enomis and Safety are basically conf scum to me.

Ok since you claim you're not just echoing me.
Can you explain why they are confscum to you?

[Wisdom]

Claim scum harder

[Wisdom]

I know for a fact that you don't have tl;dr issues like for example mollie. Therefore you have no excuse to not have read what exactly happened and ask me to explain something as obvious as why Venmar and Amrun are town for the reaction test.

[Wisdom]

Ok then Amrun is not necessarily town. I thought she knew that.

[Wisdom]

I guess I should stop thinking that because I realize something obviously isn't a hammer, everyone also does.

[Wisdom]

Oh my god wait was that a hammer?!

Venmar has had a scum read on you since day 1. Hardly willy nilly. I'm concerned about if it is a hammer, though?!

unvote

Me too. So I think we're about to see a scumflip and my juices are beginning to flow!!

And why did you want to unvote?

Though reading these posts at the time I really thought that Amrun is just going along with Venmar's plan, like I was doing.

[Wisdom]

Wait, where did she try to get towncred for it?

[Wisdom]

In any case, Amrun returns to my scumreads. I thought she was obvtown for following and helping Venmar create the reaction test, but apparently she did none of those.

So enomis/Safety/ 2 of {Amrun, Elyse, Grimgroove, NS}


pedit: Yeah, you may have a point there. She said anothing about me stating that she's town for the test.

[Wisdom]

nothing*

[Wisdom]

How does

enomis/Amrun/Elyse/Safety sound to you?

but that would mean all scum are in 2 pairs
what are the chances of that? xD

So yeah I think I'm returning to ^this team being the most likely

[Wisdom]

NS did it too. I don't care when people justify lurking with whatever. I care when my logic is shattered with out-of-game things.

[Wisdom]

Anyway.
enomis/Safety/Amrun/Elyse.
With Grimgroove or NS if any of them is wrong.
We lynch NS and we have the jaguars and the monkeys fight.
Are there disagreements on this?

[Wisdom]

If only you weren't this stupid, it would be great. You have to realize by now that I have a hard time accepting that things aren't like I thought. I didn't spot what Amrun was doing right away, so I asked you.

[Wisdom]

No when you explained it I told you that you have a point.

[Wisdom]

I didn't explain it to you because I considered it obvious that Amrun WAS part of the plan. I didn't even think of the possibility that Amrun wasn't because I considered that bullshit. I had taken the impression from the posts I quoted that she surely was following the plan. So I considered you an idiot for not seeing it the way I did. I was wrong, but you can see how I thought.

[Wisdom]

Scum have fucking daytalk, if I was a part of the scheme you seriously think I would have let Amrun derp like that and ruin it?

[Wisdom]

Except I am not Amrun. I don't tl;dr when I want to make a plan like that. I did miss it because I didn't care about what Amrun was posting and my mind was on what AP was doing, but I would never miss it if I wanted to create such a scheme.

[Wisdom]

Anyway.
enomis/Safety/Amrun/Elyse.
With Grimgroove or NS if any of them is wrong.
We lynch NS and we have the jaguars and the monkeys fight.
Are there disagreements on this?

I want this answered by everyone that is not in those four.

[Wisdom]

@Mollie:
Wisdom's meta fit quite well with his scum meta.

You have repeated this at least 4 times now, don't you have anything else to say?

[Wisdom]

But he seem to really believe in the case of Angry being scum because of his fake reaction post. I find it hard for scum to do this.

I added an extra point.

So what are your reads now?

[Wisdom]

AP, 1200? Opinion?

[Wisdom]

Fun Fact: Activity in this game is going at a rate of approximately 5 posts per hour, or 116.9 posts per day.

Imagine if bulder played too

[Wisdom]

Grim fucking read my game again. You can't possibly think I'd play scum like this.

[Wisdom]

All four that I said are obvscum for me. I don't care about the order we lynch them.

[Wisdom]

Before the hammer, I want Majiffy and Venmar to agree that tomorrow the Jaguars and the Monkeys challenge each other. No derp challenges from town.

[Wisdom]

PoE. I have townreads on Amrun, Majiffy, Mollie, you, and AP.

So they are

obvscum

because of PoE? Really? That's all you have?

NS/Grim/Safety/enomis

What if NS flips town?

[Wisdom]

^or rather,

confscum

, since that's the word you used

[Wisdom]

If you have to reevaluate your reads, that means they aren't that strong. Ergo, your PoE is not that strong. Ergo, you cannot use words like

confscum

based only on PoE.

Ergo, you are scum echoing me.

[Wisdom]

Kay, we'll continue this after he flips then

[Wisdom]

But I do expect him to flip town, that's not a secret, is it?

[Wisdom]

Because 1200

[Wisdom]

Because the scumteam is enomis/Safety/Amrun/Elyse and there are not 5 scum.
If he somehow flips scum, that means I'm wrong for one of the above. But I don't think so, so I expect him to flip town.
Get it?

[Wisdom]

For NS? Yeah.

[Wisdom]

I don't see any point.. If you wanted to insinuate that I'm wrong for accusing you about PoE because I use it myself, it's bullshit because I don't call people confscum because of PoE. I expect someone to flip town because of PoE. Complely different.
bye!

[Wisdom]

It is, but now I'm very confident I have a grip on the scumteam so I feel good about you again.

[Wisdom]

No it's not. How is determining someone's alignment using PoE scummy in any way? It's not. So stop acting like it is.

Considering people "confscum" based only on that is though.

[Wisdom]

I dropped my scumread on AP

and did not see a scummy alternative in the lynchpool at the time.

AngryPidgeon is my preference

, but not enough to put him at L-1 already. Elyse and amrun on his wagon aren't exactly reassuring either.

[Wisdom]

But Elyse's point stands that you voted who your scumread was voting.

[Wisdom]

Because we don't have a better alternative, while you had. Your scumread was in the lynchpool.

[Wisdom]

That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if everyone agrees that Jaguars-Monkeys challenge each other tomorrow. NS goes today anyway.

[Wisdom]

indeed

[Wisdom]

Amrun, challenge the Monkeys.

[Wisdom]

The hard part now is I don't know which of my four scumreads is wrong.

Summary of Purple Parrot QT:
-I ask NS if he's town
-He says he is and asks me if I am
-I say I am
-Later he says that he's catching up and he's reading page3; he asks me why I am so defensive with Amrun, and if I have not played with her before.
-He realizes I haven't and states it.
-I confirm I haven't and ask him why that's important, does she always suggest plans or something?
-He says that yes, she usually does.
-I ask him if he has any other thoughts from the first pages
-He says he arrived at page 7, he hates the bickering, not really other thoughts
-Later he says that he's busy because of RL, he has skimmed the thread and he has seen the (first) challenge. He says that he will need to ISO people.
-I ask him later if he caught up yet, and if he has any thoughts on the wagons (D1's wagons)

And that's all, there's no answer to that.

[Wisdom]

P-edit: he said I usually do? That's p odd because it isn't true. It's not an odd thing for me to do, but most games don't require plans...

That only makes you look worse then, because that means NS wanted me to townread you.