Large Normal 223 | New Beginnings | GAME OVER

[profii]

Measure twice, cut once

Measure twice, cut once

Measure twice, cut once

Measure twice, cut once

Measure twice, cut once

I feel like this is important given that more and more doubt over JJDs flip is sheeping through

[profii]

@Profii - what the fuck are you waiting on here? I cant see any scum motivation in what you're doing, but its sure as hell weird.

I'm not hammering until we know why cliff didnt pursue a guilty yesterday?

I was already there

[profii]

Or at least well on the way

[profii]

For reference the exchange between JJD and Cliff is on page 147/148 - this is where JJD and Cliff dance around JJD sending fruit to Cliff.

[profii]

We also have to consider that Cliff reckons he fruited JJD and Billy, in that order as a loyal fruit vendor.

[profii]

end of day vote counts with t= town. T = traitor. I abreviated bob to b as i know im town as im using it for my analysis.

Elements - (11): Cliff Booth, Rick Dalton, t, AaronFrost, t, EeveeLution Army, b, t, t, profii, t
Cliff Booth (3): Hectic, T, Titus
Tchill13 - (3): Billy Pilgrim, Garmr, t
AaronFrost (2): Kop, Hopkirk
Billy Pilgrim - (1): YouAreGreat

Alonzo - (10): - b, Garmr, profii, t, AaronFrost, Titus, Billy Pilgrim, T,

davesaz

, Cliff Booth
EeveeLution Army - (3): - Rick Dalton, Hopkirk, texcat
Hopkirk - (2): - t, t
Judge Joesph Dread - (1): - Carcalilly
Tchill13 - (1): - Hectic
Titus - (1): - EeveeLution Army

Not Voting: Kop

Judge Joseph Dredd - (9): Garmr, Hopkirk, b, t, Cliff Booth, Billy Pilgrim, AaronFrost, texcat, t
Garmr - (1): Titus

Just for completion.

[profii]

rooster first wagon

10th gobble/roster (5): t, t, Kop, t, profii (proffii is either 3rd party or town)

iwith 2 wagons at 5 for the traitor with 6 different players.

If scum didnt know who teh traitor was there is high chance kop is scum. With a purely statistic analysis

I can actually comment on this now, dont think I've said this thus far - roosterfoster was posting in the hood thread, but not in the game thread, so I voted for him but didnt give a solid reason, as I felt this was as good a reason as any on day 1 to actually vote. But I didn't really want to reveal that so early and end up someone going 'you need to explain' and backing myself into claim corner.

[profii]

I am. I need you to confirm what message you received so I know you're not just saying you did.

why is it a "'messenger' of sorts" and not a role title? did you specifically target me for the message or was the target chosen at random.
it feels like you're intentionally hiding something

Let me try again: Did you receive something or did you not receive anything on N1?

Failing to answer probably means scum have a Tracker/Watcher who saw me visit you but didn't know what kind of action I performed. I can't think of any other scenario where you would know I visited you but didn't receive the gift.

I did receive a message

What .. was .. it?

A lovely basket of fruit

Are you sure? Are you absolutely certain that you received FRUIT (and not -say- chocolate)?

It was fruit

JJD = Town + Disloyal + Simple

Billy is claiming Town Loyal FV, that also received a fruit on N1

JJD is claiming to have attempted to have sent the fruit, so it seems improbable that another FV is here AND they targetted CB successfully.

This means Cliff is either disloyal to JJD (Scum) or Simple to JJD (not a FV and therefore a liar)

Given the somewhat awkward exchange, I dont think Cliff really received a fruit and guessed but I think Scum were happy to trade a cop for whatever cliff is.

Consider me voting for cliff but I am going to let everyone have a say before we rush into yet another lynch

[profii]

I also have my mind on Billy, but we can deal with him once we have talked about Cliff.

[profii]

that or a liar.

[profii]

Billy - I meant Cliff there... whoops, fingers typed faster than brain was going

[profii]

this will probably get me lynched but I think Cliff is town and was making a gamble. He looked like he somewhat was regretting his actions around the end f the day. If he was scum I would expect a bit more of happy tone when he lynched JJD but all I could see was regret.

But Billy says he got a fruit ?

[profii]

hard claim no fruit for me.

[profii]

I think we should also say that we should not lynch until we have been through where this fruit went.

[profii]

Bob - fruit or no?

[profii]

I dont have the power until tonight fyi

[profii]

I crumbed my role a looooong fucking time ago. And come tomorrow I'll be able to prove what I am. So good luck.

Did you ever highlight this crumb?

[profii]

I crumbed my role a looooong fucking time ago. And come tomorrow I'll be able to prove what I am. So good luck.

Did you ever highlight this crumb?

Yes but it was Not at all convincing to me. Bunch of disconnected letters iirc.

Oh we are counting that are we... consider me unconvinced

[profii]

Cliff Booth, what are your reads on JJD and Billy Pilgrim?

scumlean on jjd from what I understand of what's going on, although I definitely need to do some research to determine if I really feel that way.

townreading billy for reasons u'm interested talking more about later maybe

Fruit spelt at the end of this one

[profii]

Now I look at it, post 3639 is after 3128

[profii]

If you are scum you aren't coming into the thread and saying "well I've served my purpose I'm scum"

You probably do... something like a massive AtE

[profii]

if i was going to set up this huge elaborate plan to mislynch jjd and try to get my way out of it with AtE, or have a goal of distracting the whole town for the day, when I could have just coasted by and got an easy mislynch on probably him or someone else anyway, then I would be a pretty stupid fucking scum dont you think

What if it wasnt a plan - I mean JJD ended up showing his card first so you realised your best bet was to trade yourself for our strongish role

[profii]

@Rick Dalton - do you remember that game you ran where I was passing a sticky fruit round and your friend said he received the wrong fruit which led to my untimely death

That kinda reminds me of this where there is probably an underlying scum plan at play going on but I think someone has claimed something a bit off piste and the scum aren't fully in control here

[profii]

Theres a point actually

In the hood Gobbly only mentions cliff twice

1. Early in the day he wondered why the wagon didnt take off given it was the end option to elements

2. After the 2nd lynch I cross referenced the 2 EoD VCs and there was a pool of 5 players that popped up that I suggested he points his gunsmith at

Funnily enough he said from the pool hed go either cliff or JJD and decided to go JJD but scum killed him

I'd suggest that he was indifferent to checking either and he was role cop purportrating to be a gunsmith so he would know all of his scum pals and there are likely to have guns (I know about docs but go with me)

He could obviously fake a result to get an inno but picked a town, so given he wasnt planning on doing that and was indifferent I'd say that supports town!cliff

[profii]

I guess scum had to take the gamble of giving us an extra inno

Let's say they blocked you again, we know you are town and then we know you gave us inno billy, wouldn't do anything to bob but it would mean they'd need to kill you rather than let us lynch you which isnt great for scum

If they leave you be they can try and block the doc and kill a PR which probably happened and hope we rush a lynch




This is so weird but I'm kinda not feeling like voting cliff

[profii]

How are you explaining that then

[profii]

If you are loyal and JJD is town then it must have been a block

[profii]

Then what

[profii]

Hard claim nope

[profii]

oh shit I just realized something. I'm like 90% sure scum has a rolecop

remember this post when I'm dead

Their role cop got shot by scum ?

[profii]

ugh im this close to just telling everyone what I've been deliberately holding back but I genuinely cannot tell if it will do more good or harm at this point

See it through

Kop
Billy Pilgrim
Cliff Booth
Rick Dalton
Alonzo
Hectic
EeveeLution Army
Hopkirk no
Carcalilly
Garmr
davesaz
profii no
bob
AaronFrost no
texcat no


Stick with this - guys on this list please confirm if you've had fruit.

[profii]

Kop
Billy Pilgrim
Cliff Booth
Rick Dalton
Alonzo
Hectic
EeveeLution Army
Hopkirk no
Carcalilly
Garmr
davesaz no
profii no
bob
AaronFrost no
texcat no
Titus



I'm sure you are all capable of copy, pasting and adding your answer... come on

[profii]

Nah just the result of trying to c+p a table on a phone

Kop
Billy Pilgrim
Cliff Booth
Rick Dalton
Alonzo
Hectic
EeveeLution Army
Hopkirk no
Carcalilly
Garmr
davesaz no
profii no
bob
AaronFrost no
texcat no
Titus no

[profii]

Chop chop

Kop
Billy Pilgrim
Rick Dalton
Alonzo
Hectic
EeveeLution Army
Carcalilly
Garmr
bob

[profii]

Lol still didnt delete him omg

[profii]

to be fair billy has technically been quite clear that he only got fruit n2 so we can move him out of the list.

Kop
Rick Dalton
Hectic
EeveeLution Army
Carcalilly
Garmr
bob

[profii]

Kop
Rick Dalton
EeveeLution Army
Carcalilly
Garmr
bob

Eevee

in case you missed it, did you get fruit n1? Apologies if you've said and I've missed it!

[profii]

Kop
Rick Dalton
Carcalilly
Garmr
bob

@ Billy - Patience, it's easiest if we go through everyone, then we talk about it.

[profii]

Kop
Rick Dalton
Carcalilly
Garmr
bob

eh i like nagging everyone

Kop
Rick Dalton
Carcalilly
bob

[profii]

Kop
Rick Dalton
Carcalilly
bob


new page, new nag... if you are on this list you need to tell us if you got fruit N1 - ta

[profii]

why do you need answer. After you did say you vended fruit n1 to jjd

Why would you ask that now when we can just finish this off

[profii]

LUV needs to do something about kop tbh

[profii]

Rick, whats your read on Kop?

Strong town PR.

I was wondering if JJD was going to claim that he gave Billy the fruit on N2 and did so because Billy claimed VT, ergo, establishing the existance of a fruit and giving some credence to the simple claim.
However, as Billy rightly points out, JJD totally missed the crumb and it was a homing beacon of a crumb, so that is ruled out.

On the Cliff side of things, he was expecting JJD to say he received a fruit and he did not, I think Cliff gave JJD a lot of leeway for essentially having a guilty, but given that Cliff told us his role was a negative utility, which it isn't really either means he didnt understand the power his role posseses or he was scared of claiming a hard guilty for fear of being killed.

I'm inclined to side with Cliff here but I want to check the VC before I re-vote.

I think it would be the latter part for Cliffs thinking.

Fruit vendor is not a strong role as such but can demonstrate the truth in your role, but the only hold back is the fact that there is a mafia version of it, so it wouldn't necessarily mean he's 100% town confirmed in my eyes.

I was wondering if JJD was going to claim that he gave Billy the fruit on N2 and did so because Billy claimed VT, ergo, establishing the existance of a fruit and giving some credence to the simple claim.
However, as Billy rightly points out, JJD totally missed the crumb and it was a homing beacon of a crumb, so that is ruled out.

On the Cliff side of things, he was expecting JJD to say he received a fruit and he did not, I think Cliff gave JJD a lot of leeway for essentially having a guilty, but given that Cliff told us his role was a negative utility, which it isn't really either means he didnt understand the power his role posseses or he was scared of claiming a hard guilty for fear of being killed.

I'm inclined to side with Cliff here but I want to check the VC before I re-vote.

I think it would be the latter part for Cliffs thinking.

Fruit vendor is not a strong role as such but can demonstrate the truth in your role, but the only hold back is the fact that there is a mafia version of it, so it wouldn't necessarily mean he's 100% town confirmed in my eyes.

do you think JJD might be getting bussed by cliff?

We can't rule it out, but in this situation, it's hard to see considering scum have almost full numbers baring the traitor so they are kind of in a good position, but on the other side of the argument, they could have set this plan up during the night phase to try cement Cliff into a stronger town read for later on in the game when the numbers have dwindled, and left in the unknowns.

[profii]

I've not received any fruit any night.

(For some reason, can't post on mobile data as I.P address is blacklisted, so have to wait till have WIFI to make a post. Will look into it today.)

Try something like the puffin browser app - it acts as a vpn and can circumvent these things

[profii]

I think we just need rick (and technically Carca,) to confirm no fruit n1

[profii]

Since I've basically exposed the entire reason I'm wanting an answer for this anyway,

I should clarify that the person that I actually sent fruit to on night one

hasnt answered yet.

I am very close to laying down my Cliff vote.
I'm happy to hear out how this is going to go but I think Cliff has to go.

Obviously Cliff is going to say 'well I really sent my fruit to xxxxx on N1' and I cannot see any kind of subtle nod from anyone suggesting they got the fruit and being ok that Cliff was posing a guilty on JJD when someone else knew it was infact just a guess.

So whoever this is person ends up being, Cliff + that person are going to have to go some to convince me that it's true.

My best guess is Cliff is a scum disloyal simple FV and he gave Billy the fruit to try and give credit to his own narrative as obviously Billy claimed so that was an easy win for Cliff.

That would suggest Bob is a VT which would be proven if Cliff flips as per my prediction but I dont know as I'm just musing right now so I will sit patiently and wait for the tale of this fruit and we will make a decision from there I guess

[profii]

I’m gonna try to catch up tonight. I saw Cliff was L-2, don’t hammer him yet.

Did you get a fruit n1?

[profii]

Check your wikis, guys. Already said I haven't recieved fruit this game.

Addressed to Hopkirk:

Elaborate on your town/metaread on Aaron Fucking Frost of all people
I get he's a great guy, but he's actually been pinging me recently, there's definitely a change in tone from my other two town games with him.
He's a lot more assertive/aggressive here.

Why the fuck am I obvtown?

But yeah I am being a bit more aggressive here. I've been trying to play a bit more aggressively as town lately since too often I see town players not do anything and allow scum an easy victory. Look at my most recent Newbie (1959) for a good example of this.

PEDIT: So you're not scumreading anyone else?

Interesting.
I had noticed the drastic change in your profile picture. I'll be honest: I was a little taken aback at first. I was thinking; is this the same AaronFrost I've known and loved for years?
Has age and self-hammers mellowed him into an entirely different player? Time will tell.
I'll have a look at the newbie game later.

That said, I still want to hear Hopkirk's reason for his town/metaread on you.

I had to change it to Grimm for Halloween I'm sorry lol. But yes it is me, the Aaron Fucking Frost that you know and love

Tex why do you think cliff implied fruit went to kop?

When he made the post I assume you are referring to, rick hadn't (still hasn't confirmed) but kop has, as you quote

So you've jumped to kop when it actually looks like it's going to be rick

[profii]

Dunno how that got quoted #phoneposting

[profii]

Now is your time to shine

[profii]

Why dont you tell us all?

[profii]

VOTE: cliff

[profii]

So cliff didnt pursue a guilty on day 2

Then decided to call it a guilty

Then lied about getting fruit

I'd be naive to think cliff just didnt get his role up until after JJD died so I'm voting, even if he is town, we get some innos and we remove the liability as cliff will always be doubted

I suspect something else entirely is going on so lets flip him

[profii]

A point for discussing then
UNVOTE:

I'm pretty torn too

It kinda makes sense that as a simple, cliff didnt push his guilty on day 2

It's annoying and reckless that he did on day 3 to the loss of JJD

It's also feasible that in the JJD vs Cliff bit, cliff guessed he got a fruit which makes all claims reconcile properly thus far



So given it all adds up and a few people have said they are not sure I think we have to choose today:

We agree cliff is a simple FV and he systematically clears and simple roles day by day and we trust it... if we dont fully agree this, he will be left alive to create doubt so as town we need a united front to get scum to kill him, verifying everything- we need to be willing to trust him in lylo


Alternatively we lynch him and either get 1 scum or 2 innos which isnt a bad deal


Third outsider possibility, we ask the vig to kill so we can lynch better today and verify our innos tomorrow


If we dont all commit to trusting cliff all the way then it wont work imo

[profii]

Is there a benefit to mass claim prior to dealing with cliff?

At the moment given the tracker died last night, I am target number 1 I'd guess... we do have a doctor claim so scum have to consider that, therefore a mass claim probably makes the docs job harder / scum choices better

[profii]

I feel like cliff is scum and we dont lynch him now, scum will win for sure

But if he is town and we mislynch him now, we could recover - it almost seems like a calculated risk

[profii]

This one

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=74615

I'm totally wary of kop not posting as I got duped by his slot in this game as I mentioned on day 1. Vig please resolve this

[profii]

Plain and simple i think your scum. Thus there is no solid clear on me and billy.

If you are town which i doubt then you flip does confirm me and billy

Cliff is probably a scum disloyal fruit vendor which would still clear you and Billy.

Why in God's name would he play this way to create two confirmed townies if hes trying to die?

haha I did the same thing in a boon game ... though it wasnt normal rules i was using the game mechanics to conf town people and i was a traitor who didnt die if scum shot me so I acted as pro town as possible but someone made a mistaken fruit claim and it got me lynched haha

[profii]

VC.

VC

Can we get a vc please? Would be useful to see who the people are that are super certain cliff is scum and happy to potentially lose kop and any potential info etc etc

[profii]

You are listed as not voting, Billy. Is that right?

[profii]

correction, you aren't listed so I assume you are not voting, to be clear.

[profii]

So the question is do we believe we have a cop and a FV

[profii]

Oh

I literally hit my head on a metal pole tonight so ull re read tomorrow ha ga

[profii]

Let's add Profii to the list and edit them out if they recover.

Eh what list

[profii]

I think I am going to wait for the Kop thing to be sorted then vote cliff.

I'd like Kop/that slot to just confirm we dont have a hard guilty (or inno) on anyone (inc. Cliff) and then we lynch cliff.

Whilst on the balance of things it does feel like a policy lynch, town has been completely shackled by the cliff issue, so we lynch him and there are 2 options - he was scum - perfect, that's what we are here to do. He was town - unfortunate, but assuming he is fully disclosing now we get Billy and Bob lock towned, along with Carca and Dave which makes their position a bit tricky going into Mass claim.


So that's my plan

[profii]

Hopkirk -

to be fair billy has technically been quite clear that he only got fruit n2 so we can move him out of the list.

Kop
Rick Dalton
Hectic
EeveeLution Army
Carcalilly
Garmr
bob

sad that my scumread got confirmed town. what roles can actually do that in a normal? publishing cop?

And that's a sad thing why? Because you're scum and can't push that mislynch anymore?

Scum pool right now (in the event Cliff flips town) is {Eevee, Kop, Titus, tex, Hopkirk, Hectic}

Mostly slots with low content who've been sitting back watching town destroy itself.

In the event Cliff flips scum, Dalton could be a partner. Not too sure who else atm.

Cause it means titus is probably town too. And that leaves all my scumreads gone

Is aaron one of the clears?

Idt im lynching atm. If this is hammer i shall hammer in exactly 24 hours unless something happens in short. Intent to hammer :3

nope nvm once again fuck the VC but this time because I do not trust ELA enough to be okay with that statement this early in the day
UNVOTE:

The problem is he still died without me

Kop
Rick Dalton
EeveeLution Army
Carcalilly
Garmr
bob

Eevee

in case you missed it, did you get fruit n1? Apologies if you've said and I've missed it!

No fruit ever sadly. But fruit vendor is in my list of favourite roles

[profii]

oh
that was when we were going through who had received fruit on N1 as cliff was messing about and Eevee posted 3 times without saying anything about it, until I bolded it in 4160

[profii]

i reckon she probably read the same post as me in the wrong way

[profii]

I’m having a hard time catching up and staying invested. Busy lately, and this game kinda took a hard backseat.

Someone should cop me and clear me so I can coast and troll

Ok

[profii]

Is there any chance that scum!dalton is playing the way he is as to not accidentally do whatever it is that profii says he only does as scum

curiously, you are doing daltons scum trait admirably.

[profii]

Also, I say we should ask for an extension if a Kop replacement isn't found by end of the day - to potentially lose 2 sets of results through apathy isn't really fair.

[profii]

Is there any chance that scum!dalton is playing the way he is as to not accidentally do whatever it is that profii says he only does as scum

curiously, you are doing daltons scum trait admirably.

why would you say that

I dont need to give that information away

[profii]

Is there any chance that scum!dalton is playing the way he is as to not accidentally do whatever it is that profii says he only does as scum

curiously, you are doing daltons scum trait admirably.

why would you say that

I dont need to give that information away

that was a rhetorical question. I'm saying I am upset with you for saying that because you already gave information away

Well I literally haven't said what the tell is so it doesn't matter.

[profii]

i doubt it

[profii]

not really

[profii]

Shit happened, I was way wrong on my jjd read and thought he was pulling a gambit on me because honestly what the FUCK are the odds that 2 fruit vendors target each other on night one

I thought he knew something that I didn't, thought he was pulling some cheeky shit on me especially given his 50 claim changes, and screwed up. Call it a gamethrow if you want but at least I was productive this phase. It's just that none of you people ever wanted to even consider anything I said

See now I'm not voting you again

It was really confusing as to why you were not chasing the JJD "guilty" after N1 but decided to do it later

You didnt admit you were loyal at first but obviously afte the n1 result JJD can just be a town PR (obviously he was)

Then you got into the bit where you both claimed fruit so as you say here fuck 2 fruit vendors - maybe my result is a guilty

Obviously it backfired and there was a point in twilight where you kinda realised and seem genuinely remorseful


It now makes sense


Hard not voting cliff here

In fact fuck it

VOTE: kop

Let's go krazy (with a K, for kop)

[profii]

Why do you want to be lynched?

Oh eth0s

You did give it away

[profii]

This is also probably the end for me....
Ta ta

[profii]

What a mess ha ha well done scum

[profii]

Hehe I expected 4 scum, I had Aaron and Rick at the point I died, didn't really get Titus but everyone in the dead thread was on it and we didn't have spoilers so not sure how it all went so wrong. Meh