Mafiascum.net

In post 3242, Lovebird wrote:Pls don't go

In post 3255, Cheetory6 wrote:

Mathdino replaces in for CheekyTeeky.

In post 2958, mastina wrote:

In post 2924, OnTheMark wrote:Again if you’re town it’s legalese and splitting hairs

WHICH IS MY FUCKING SPECIALTY.
THIS IS HOW I FUCKING BREAK GAMES.

I learned from Nachomamma. (Well actually I picked it up on my own and it just so happens to be something Nacho was known for, but since I did learn from Nacho I like to say that I learned it from him. )

I don't break games with the big stuff.

I break games with the fucking details.

With the nuances.

With bombarding the moderator with questions the mod did not have the foresight to fully see.

Yes, the mod generally has an emergency self-defense mechanism against my question bombardment.

But I can, have, and DO fucking win games by doing this. (As both alignments, to be fair, but NORMALLY as town.)

Cheetory's response to questions gave me a golden opportunity.
If he had taken a different stance this game then I wouldn't have been given that opportunity--but because he used the rules he is using in regards to answering questions.

I have what is, genuinely, a gamebreaking plan which can and WILL generate absolute conftown without a flip on D1.

A type of exploitation of mod error which isn't true mod error so much as mod oversight in not thinking through the consequences of his answers or lack thereof.

So again.

Let me quote the plan once more.

In post 2930, mastina wrote:

In post 2921, mastina wrote:

In post 2914, mastina wrote:

In post 2911, mastina wrote:

In post 2806, Lovebird wrote:

Mod could scum be masons?

The answer to this is no. Nico actually asked this right off the bat in our mason PT. Was one of the first things she did. Thought it was pretty dumb to do because of course masons are town in a non-bastard game it is literally written into the wiki for masons to be conftown to one another, but she asked it anyway as one of her quirks and Cheet did answer, so.

Absolutely, masons are conftown. They cannot be scum.

To be a little more explicit.

Nico's exact question to Cheetory was if we are explicitly confirmed town to one another; Cheet answered that yes, we are. (Actually it was just 'yes'.)

If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, they can ask that same question to Cheetory and get that same answer.

To further confirm we are masons.

Say beeboy and Lovebird come back and confirm this is the answer Cheetory gives to the question, "Are we explicitly conftown to one another?". That Cheetory answers 'yes' to it.

Okay then.
Try asking the mod, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be conftown to one another?"
If Cheetory refuses to answer that question.

In spite of answering it for Nico and I.
And beeboy/Lovebird (assuming they can even produce this confirmation in the first place).
Then he is by proxy confirming we cannot have this information as scum.

And yes I know I am backing Cheetory into a corner; that's what I fucking do.

Cheetory has two choices here.
He can keep modding his game consistently, deny the answers to the non-masons, give them to the second pair of masons, and indirectly confirm by this process we are conftown.
Or he can break consistent modding practice by giving answers to the non-masons...which, by proxy of him needing to answer the same. Ends up indirectly confirming by that process we are conftown.

I might not be wording this the best way, but basically.

-Cheetory has, publicly, denied to answer the question of if masons are conftown to one another.
-Cheetory has, privately to Nico Robin and I, confirmed that we are explicitly conftown to one another.
-If beeboy and Lovebird are genuinely masons, Cheetory cannot justify giving one set of masons one answer and then giving a different set of masons a different answer; this is setting his game up for self-destruction, and thus, he is forced to give them the same answer to maintain consistent modding practice.
-However, Cheetory DOES have a choice: between privately confirming to players that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, or privately denying to answer players asking if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately confirm that masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then while the option of scum fakeclaiming remains theoretically possible, we have confirmed that there's no fucking thing as "One half of the masonry is town, the other half is scum". This allows us to know that the only possibilities are both-town or both-scum.
*If Cheetory chooses to privately decline to answer if masons are explicitly confirmed to one another, then it confirms that Nico Robin, myself, beeboy, and Lovebird

somehow

obtained information unavailable to others; four names having it means we can't be a scumteam, either. This confirms beyond any shadow of a doubt that we are conftown.

Of course. This plan doesn't work if beeboy and Lovebird aren't actually masons and thus can't get the information Nico and I got, buuuuuuut. I'd take that smugly too as an "I fucking told you so that we were masons".

To reiterate.

beeboy and Lovebird, you need to ask Cheetory IN YOUR MASON PT if you are explicitly conftown to one another.
Everyone who is not a mason, you need to ask Cheetory IN PRIVATE, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with another player, would we be explicitly conftown to one another?"

No matter how Cheetory responds, if everyone follows this process, we will end up confirming information about masons.

That beeboy and Lovebird are fucking liars (just town ones at that) if they can't produce this confirmation, that masons can't be town-scum if Cheetory answers in private, or that all four of mastina/Nico/beeboy/Lovebird have information unavailable even by asking the mod and thus it pertains to their roles and thus they are actually masons.

No matter which option we come out as having. You end up with conftown that are, truly, even without flips, conftown.

All you have to do is ask the right question to the mod.

Either find a flaw in this plan, or fucking follow it.

Because I am 100% confident this tells you the truth of the game if followed through.

In post 2971, mastina wrote:This seemed like a good place to once more run through what I am getting at, with all the relevant information.

-

FACT: Momrangal has claimed Mason Cop, getting results in the form of "Mason" or "Not Mason".

This is indisputable.
It is generally agreed that this is not a fakeclaim. Those who think Momrangal think it's her real role, just claimed as scum; those who think her town think it's her real role. Does everyone agree so far? Okay then! From this, we can go further with an additional inference.

-

Inferred Fact: If there is a Mason Cop in the game, then it is likely there is

at least

one set of actual masons. Possibly two.

So you follow with this, right? You might have thoughts on it, that it's possible to exist without masons as a red herring role, or that the possibility of two mason sets is slim, but you follow with the statement as worded, yes? Likely (even if not definitively) at least one set of masons (maybe two).

Alright, good with that?

I'd love to spend extra time on why I feel a mason cop increases the odds of four masons in the game (namely because it gives the mason cop more people to get results on), but if I did that I'd be taking away from the point of my argument, so let's keep on going.

-

FACT: Nico Robin and mastina are claimed masons together; beeboy and Lovebird are claimed masons together.

This is indisputable.

-

Inferred Fact: Given our prior inferred fact of the mason cop, it can then be assumed at least one (possibly both) sets of claims is thus true.

Thus, it can be inferred that AT LEAST one set of beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina are masons, with the possibility both are.

-

FACT: Cheetory has declined to answer if masons would be explicitly conftown to one another publicly.

This is indisputable.

-

FACT: Nico Robin and mastina are claiming that when Nico Robin asked Cheetory if they were explicitly conftown to one another, Cheetory answered "yes".

This is indisputable.

And here's where the critical step is.
-

Inferred Fact: Nico Robin and I are claiming information not available by asking publicly. The only possibility is thus that we obtained this information over a private channel. The possible channels are PM/mafia PT/mason PT.

-

Inferred Fact Followthrough: Mafia PTs function identically for all intents and purposes to PMs; an answer available by PM is available in the mafia PT, and vice-versa.

-

Inferred Fact2: If beeboy and Lovebird are actually masons, they should get the same answer because Cheetory won't treat two mason pairs differently from one another.

-

Inferred Fact2 followthrough: If beeboy and Lovebird cannot produce the same answer, then you have a confirmed liar pair in the set of beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina; if beeboy and Lovebird can produce the same answer, then you have confirmation of the answer's accuracy.

And from here, I shouldn't need to hold your hand as I walk you through it. But I will anyway.

-

Inferred Facts Followthroughs' Inferred Fact: By asking Cheetory via PM, "Hypothetically, if I were a mason with a player, would we be conftown to one another?", you can test whether mafia can get access to this information. If Cheetory declines to answer, then mafia cannot access the information; if Cheetory does answer, then mafia can access information.

-

Inferred Facts Followthroughs' Inferred Fact Followthrough: If Cheetory confirms that masons are explicitly conftown to one another, then you know AT LEAST one set of beeboy/Lovebird and mastina/Nico Robin is town; you also know that mastina and Nico Robin were being truthful about the information they shared.

And therein lies the critical part.

Because we know there are masons in the game.
And we know that EITHER: masons are conftown to one another (Cheet answers in private) OR: mastina/Nico Robin have an answer unavailable to the public which beeboy/Lovebird EITHER: vouch for, OR: deny.

The possibilities you end up with are based on that.
-Masons are conftown; masons are in the game; you have AT LEAST one set of conftown in beeboy/Lovebird and Nico Robin/mastina.
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird are liars by claiming to be masons and not having the answer and Nico Robin/mastina are truthfully masons.
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird don't have a way to confirm this and Nico Robin/mastina are lying about that information for...some reason...because lying about mod communication gives them some sort of...mystical voodoo advantage of some sort. (I really don't get this one so if you believe it, you're gonna have some explainin' to do.)
-Masons aren't publicly known to be conftown; beeboy/Lovebird vouch for Nico Robin/mastina's claim that they are, and thus, this confirms all four as town.

I already know that it isn't #3.

So no matter what. You end up with knowing that there are conftown. Off of the setup information we have available to us today.

Through a combination of roleclaims and Cheetory's stances on answering questions.
We get conftown we otherwise wouldn't get.

Point out where this process is wrong.

Because my logic? It fucking holds. Because it is based off of FACTS. With the LOGICAL INFERENCES GIVEN THOSE FACTS.
Unless you want to argue that my inferences are wrong, then be my guest and fucking DO SO. I'd like to see you try.

In post 2975, mastina wrote:

In post 2973, Lovebird wrote:If I were scum, couldn't I just say "yes" anyways? Don't get how it confirms anything.

Why yes, yes you can!

But by answering yes, you are confirming the information we claimed is accurate.

And by confirming the information we claimed is accurate.

You are confirming us as town.

Because IF SCUM CANNOT GET AN ANSWER TO THE QUESTION. (Something WHICH CAN BE CHECKED BY NON-MASONS ASKING THE SPECIFIC HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION I GAVE.)
And WE GOT THE ANSWER TO THE QUESTION.
Then that means we can't be scum.

So your alignment doesn't matter. You saying 'yes' means Nico Robin and I are conftown, so long as the moderator privately declines to answer.

In post 2981, mastina wrote:The full list of options here, to reiterate.
-Cheetory, privately, confirms that hypothetical masons are conftown. Given this, Nico Robin and I could access this information as scum...but because we know that there are masons in the game, we know off of Cheetory's answers that the masons are town thanks to his answer; there cannot be scum masons.

-Cheetory, privately, declines to answer if hypothetical masons are conftown. Given this, Nico Robin and I cannot access this information as scum. We then subdivide.
*beeboy/Lovebird deny the information, claiming they cannot get the answer we got from Cheetory. Given this, you know there is a liar between the mason pairs. Subdividing further.
~Nico/mastina are bullshitting; they made the whole thing up, with beeboy/Lovebird's as the truthful version. (In which you need to explain why this FLAGRANT violation of occam's razor makes so much as ONE iota of sense.)
~beeboy/Lovebird are lying; Nico/mastina are telling the truth and masons are conftown.
*beeboy/Lovebird confirm the information, vouching for Nico Robin and mastina's story. We then subdivide.
~If beeboy/Lovebird are masons, then they are town. Nico Robin and mastina also have access to the information; given this, when the information is unavailable to scum, mastina and Nico Robin are conftown and beeboy/Lovebird have a fair chance of being conftown.
~If beeboy/Lovebird aren't masons, then they may or may not be town. However, because they are vouching for Nico Robin and mastina, they are claiming that Nico Robin and mastina's information is accurate. Given this, with the information unavailable to scum and the game being unable to have four scum in it, mastina and Nico Robin are conftown.

No matter what, we come out ahead.

If people actually fucking follow the plan.

There's zero downsides to this.
The town always comes out ahead here.

In post 2987, mastina wrote:

In post 2984, beeboy wrote:I mean Mastina, the thing about Cheetory not answering questions publically or privately doesn't apply to scum.

Yes it does.
Scum don't magically have more access to information on how roles-not-their-own-or-in-their-fakeclaims work.

If they did, that's poor fucking modding.

You know why?

Because it is mod bias in favor of scum.

Mods are meant to be impartial.

Scum should not have access to information on roles other than their own/safeclaims unless town has access to that very same information.

So unless you wanna argue that the mod handed Nico and I a mason safeclaim.
Or that Cheet is a bad mod who biased the setup in favor of scum by allowing scum to basically have a free rolecop just by asking questions to him. (Because that's EXACTLY what giving answers to scum not available to town is.)

My point holds.

In post 2991, mastina wrote:

In post 2987, mastina wrote:

In post 2984, beeboy wrote:I mean Mastina, the thing about Cheetory not answering questions publically or privately doesn't apply to scum.

Yes it does.
Scum don't magically have more access to information on how roles-not-their-own-or-in-their-fakeclaims work.

If they did, that's poor fucking modding.

You know why?

Because it is mod bias in favor of scum.

Mods are meant to be impartial.

Scum should not have access to information on roles other than their own/safeclaims unless town has access to that very same information.

So unless you wanna argue that the mod handed Nico and I a mason safeclaim.
Or that Cheet is a bad mod who biased the setup in favor of scum by allowing scum to basically have a free rolecop just by asking questions to him. (Because that's EXACTLY what giving answers to scum not available to town is.)

My point holds.

Another way of saying it.

If the mod answers scum asking about information on their own role, that's fine; that is to be expected.
If the mod answers town asking about information on their own role, that's fine; that is to be expected.
If the mod answers scum asking about information on their mod-provided safeclaims, that's fine; that is to be expected.

If the mod refuses to answer town about information on a role which isn't their own on the merits that it isn't their role, then that is their preference as a moderator and a valid choice.

Okay, good so far, yes?
You agree?
You follow.

Alright.

So what's the logical extension of this?

If the mod refuses to answer scum about information on a role which isn't their own and isn't one of their safeclaims, then that is the extension of the town decision.

Consistent moderation, unbiased. Scum can't access something town cannot, unless the information is given in the scum's roles or the scum's fakeclaims. Fair, balanced, even, both sides denied the same thing and being given the same thing.

If Cheetory gave answers to scum about information on a role which was NEITHER their own NOR one of their safeclaims...
...While refusing to give answers to town about information on a role which isn't their own...

...Does that sound unbiased to you?

Fuck no, because it's not; it's biased in favor of scum.
Plain and simple.
There's no ambiguity here.

Just simple facts.

In post 3430, Nahdia wrote:I'm the new beeboy. What can I do for ya?

In post 3431, OnTheMark wrote:

In post 3430, Nahdia wrote:I'm the new beeboy. What can I do for ya?

Confirm that you are masons with lovebird and you are godfather

In post 3431, OnTheMark wrote:

In post 3430, Nahdia wrote:I'm the new beeboy. What can I do for ya?

Confirm that you are masons with lovebird and you are godfather

In post 3271, Mathdino wrote:@nicorobin: yeah except mastina is lying because she's mastina

In post 3264, Mathdino wrote:so mastina and nicorobin are obviously lying regardless of card right?

In post 3421, Mathdino wrote:

In post 3420, Nahdia wrote:Yall been posting up a goshdarn storm which totally blows but I get it. Could someone who has been paying attention gimmie a summary of the particularly important stuff that has happened in that time, like claims etc.? I'm gonna get reading but I'd still appreciate that so I can get some participation in before the day ends.

heads up, you're not gonna get this out of this playerlist, i already tried

the only people that are in a headspace to do so are

- someone who has claimed flipless (fucking lol)

- someone who is known for good scumplay

In post 3155, MOMOMEN wrote:

In post 3154, beeboy wrote:Why is letting the scum mason cop figure out that me and lovebird ade the real masons is somehow a good solution to our issues in thread.

i mean

you're gambitting

but back to lynching mark and then mara or pine and then whoever else

In post 3230, MOMOMEN wrote:

In post 3201, OnTheMark wrote:Except Wisdom and myself who object repeatedly. What did you claim? Can’t find it[/i]

Read the first 5 pages lol. And Wisdom never objected, and he hard tr'd me too if you wanna cite wisdom. Also, a role you can't target your mason partner with makes sense if its a compulsive neg util. lol.

In post 3201, OnTheMark wrote:Yes. If we mislynch a mason tomorrow momrangel confirms as scum and the other pair as scum. FYI if you’re insistent on checking the pair Momrangal check lovebird. Beeboy claimed mason godfather. I would much rather you check Mastina

Look, no point hiding this anymore. We used our messages to communicate. Mastina messaged me a claim earlyish in the day (after the mason stuff was in thread a bit, before it was popular). I messaged back for her to confirm I was loud (after I had the mod confirm that her action would not be affected by loud, to prove I'm not a ninja), which she's done in thread. I gave her a phrase to give to Yume and Yume did it, proving they had day chat. I gave some very harsh words about Yume if its a gambit, and if yume's gambitting she's hard blacklisted (

if you haven't redacted it by the end of day 1

). like, I have no words for play that bad and I've played with some pretty damn bad players. I don't think Yume is that dumb though and I do believe her claim, so they're masons or scum partners. IF they're scum partners, sure, but that'll come out eventually like I told you and like you shoudl really know as a mathematical player, and otherwise they're just both town.

I think Bee and Love are gambitting, so yes, if we leave Mara and you alive I would rather he target Love. However, I hard townread both of them so I don't really care. At this point we're gonna mass claim day 2 or day 3. At that point, if 4 mason claims are still alive and town has other power, yes, we look twice at them. I think you and Pine still contains a scum, but looking back fresher I kind of see Ali slot town and I still thought Wisdom was solid although PoE sketch so idfk. Mara is known as someone who can fake her town meta well so idk why people are confidently TRing there, so honestly that's my second pick for a lynch after you/pine. Then there's your NM read which is just daft, and its a scummy slot. If we are lynching outside of everything, fucking fine, this day needs to end.

In post 3274, Mathdino wrote:someone better have an awesome explanation for why this day has, on page 131, been reduced to setup speccing and attempting to mechanically solve a upick role madness game.