Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[gootentag]

I just sent Aelyn a PM about tomorrow and my restriction, Mr. Stoofer. I'll let you know as soon as I hear back.

[gootentag]

Ok, here's the skinny on my role.

Basically, since I can't vote tomorrow, the only person that can get a majority is me. Therefore, what naturally would happen is a forced deadline and whoever voted first gets to make the kill. However, in keeping with the flavor my my role protecting someone from lynching, I can choose

after a deadline has been issued

who to spare. So basically, I can't vote of my own accord, but I can break a tie post deadline.

That being the case, I will probably not use my ability tonight. If it becomes clear tomorrow who the scum is and I have inadvertently lynch-proofed them, it would be curtains for the town. That, and the only way it would do any good was if someone voted for themself...

[LordKrishna]

Bob, you've missed my point in a couple of places, so I think I was not clear enough.

This one is the most important:

Quote:

gootentag: "It is not solely Mr. Stoofer's responsibility to find Mme Thenardier if she exists."
K: His claim indicates that she exists. This is the only evidence we have. I don't believe his claim. Therefore, he has to prove himself to me.

This seems almost political in its answering of a different question to the one asked. You're earlier point is being contradicted, yet you don't really try to defend it, you say something else instead. Just because Mr Stoofer's claim mentions the Thernadiers, it doesn't mean that Mme Thernadier is in the game, and saying it is one person's responsibility to find scum is wrong: that's the job of the whole town.

My earlier claim *isn't* being contradictied. I was not saying it's Stoofer's responsibility to *find scum*. I was saying that it's his responsibility to furnish us with a *Mme. Thenardier*. Why would I have said this, you ask? My point here was that Mr. Stoofer, having claimed that there is a Mme. Thenardier, needs to prove this to us, because the Town doesn't seem to believe that Mme. Thenardier is the remaining scum. I don't believe that she is in the game. In response to MeMe's point about Thenardier not being referred to as M. Thenardier, I replied that this does not preclude a Mme. Thenardier.

But I certainly did not mean to imply that Mme. Thenardier is in the game.

I do not believe this. (Is everyone following me on this? I don't know how to make this any clearer. I think people are focusing on parts of my posts that I think are far less important.)

You are washing your hands of finding scum, as you are claiming it is Mr Stoofer's job to find it. And then voting him also completely contradicts the point of saying he must find scum, as this leaves him less chance to anyway.

No, this is wrong, again, for the same reason as above -- I think that Mme. Thenardier is NOT in the game, and that Mr. Stoofer has to find this imaginary character if he wants us (really me) to believe that SHE is scum. Different from me demanding that he find scum, you see?

My vote on him is intended to put pressure on him. I think there is no likelihood of a quick lynch, as the scum would leap on after the second vote, to condemn us all. Also, Bob, a not-understood claim is a perfectly valid reason for a vote. My role makes sense. Cosette's made sense. (etc. Eponine's powers and role in the game is unclear, particularly as no one has taken the time to answer my question as regards her character in the book. I think Stoofer's claim doesn't match with the other claims in the game.

Although I kind of think this about gootentag's claim as well, his at least makes sense in that the Bishop of Digne *would* be totally against lynchings, etc., which is why I'm not terribly suspicious of him. Also, my investigation results were pretty clear that I should not arrest him, which amounts to saying that we absolutely should not lynch him! Hence, to me, it is ridiculous to think that my results on him are at ALL ambiguous. He is not a candidate for lynching. Neither is Valjean. This leaves Javert, Enjolras, and Eponine. Of the three, I happen to know to know that I'm innocent, so I have to pick one of the remaining two, and I'm going with Eponine, as I think she is a 'bad guy', whereas Enjolras is not. Perhaps, honestly, this is overly simplistic, but no one has given me a better solution to our dilemma.

Bob, it should now be relatively clear why I'm voting for Stoofer. If you want me to change my vote, it would be to you.

As for taking a "risk" by claiming Javert if he actually isn't...I don't believe this is true. When he claimed, Cb and I were already out...gootentag said he thought Javert would be SK or godfather (in post 25) - so he's obviously not going to claim Javert...and Stoofer said in post 191 that Javert would be an "obviously scummy role - so he's obviously not going to claim Javert.

This is why it was a risk for me to claim -- lots of people believed (and still believe!) that Javert is a scummy role. Why? Simple -- in the book, he's an antagonist figure to our hero, Jean Valjean. With people being predisposed to thinking Javert is scummy, it's a risk coming out, but I thought it was worth it, as the Town was wanting a mass-claim. It would have been suicide not to claim my role, and I think it's equally stupid for a Townsperson to lie about their claim.

I think this day is stalling. After the brilliant unmasking of EmpTyger on the last day by MeMe, and the subsequent massive losses to our side in the Night, we seem to simply be deadlocked, unwilling to move.

-K

[Mr Stoofer]

So basically, I can't vote of my own accord, but I can break a tie post deadline.

So if there are 3 people (you, X and Y), with X and Y voting for each other, after the deadlione is issued you can choose which of X or Y to save, and the other will be lynched at deadline?

[Mr Stoofer]

Mr. Stoofer, having claimed that there is a Mme. Thenardier

Where?



[Double post due to cross-posting]

[LordKrishna]

Holy crap! I just realized something! It's about Stoofer's claim. In my post #332, I detail why Stoofer's claim made no sense to me, but now I've gone back over his claim for the umpteenth time to see something new.

"Every night I choose someone to hang around. As the estranged daughter of the Thernadiers, I will try frustrate them if they try to harm that person."
This had sounded to me like it made Town too powerful, to have a sort of doctor on top of a cop (me) and some friendly Masons into the bargain, and an un-Night-killable Townie (who of course, turrns out to have her own problems!).

"Furthermore, because of my time acting as a lookout for my parents, I will out of habit distract any government agents that try to do anything to the person I am hanging around."
And then, this part really confused me -- I saw an incongruity in the claim, that I didn't understand, but apparently, everyone else did, though without

saying

anything about it. This part of Stoofer's claim suggests that he works against the government (me, Pro-Town), so I thought, this doesn't work with the previous Pro-Town ability.

I had thought this to be evidence of scumminess, that he had simply made a grave error in his claim, by claiming two abilities, one Pro-Town and one Anti-Town, but now I realize what it really is -- a game balance mechanism. It's not that Eponine has two *powers* that she uses intentionally, it's just that her protection means that I can't investigate that same person. It's a way of compromising the efficacy of both roles.

Sure, we have a Doctor, but she's also anti-Cop. Sure, we have a Cop, but his sanity may be in question (my role PM even is very careful to mention something to the effect that I can arrest people I who are guilty in my eyes, rather than simply saying I can arrest guilty parties). Sure, we've got a Bishop, to protect people from being lynched, but he can't vote! (this would be crippling tomorrow, if we mislynch, if not for some new clarification that I don't quite get yet). Sure, we've got a un-Night-killable Townie, but she explodes when her lover dies (?).

And one last one, I think. Sure, we have a pair of Masons that seem like good guys. But only one really is.

I'm going to

UNVOTE

: Mr. Stoofer now, and

VOTE: ChanglingBob

, as he's the remaining suspect, in my book. This makes less sense thematically (Enjolras-Thenardier), but it does fit perfectly with the "problematic" power roles that Aelyn has thrown our way. (It also makes sense thematically for us all to be "flawed" in some way, as are the extravagantly Romantic characters in the source material).

-K

[Changling bob]

The last set of points you posted I answered, so can you explain so I can defend myself please.

Same stuff, Cb. Yes, you "answered" -- but that doesn't mean I've bought your answers.

Might as well get this over with first.

<snip>
--The role name
--The claimed mechanics (if he's town...what if he recruits scum into his group? Just doesn't seem to work except in a cult/scum capacity)
--Backing up EmpTyger yesterday
--And the thing that's catching my eye most prominently at the moment (huge examples in posts 308 & 312): he's admitting that he understands the allegations against him. When I'm town and being unfairly accused, I tend to think my accusers are imbeciles and go to great lengths to explain how what I said is in

no way

scummy...even if I've made errors. Conceding points against oneself looks guilty to me.
<snip>

To go through your points in order:
--In what way would Enjolras be connected to Thenardier in a scum based capacity?
--I don't know what happens if I recruit scum. I'd rather not try it out if it's all the same to you
--I made a mistake. I laughed at a joke. Then you claimed and I didn't get time between your claim and the lynch to voice my suspicions.
--Well if you're willing to accept that you are, in fact, an imbecile, then I'll happily treat you like one. As is, I'll deal with your arguements as I see them.

I agree that there's no way for you to tell that I haven't used my recruitment ability, but then there's no way for any of us to confirm who anybody else used their ability on, or even what they are.

--As I've said, I don't think that the scum group has to be a

natural

fit.
--I'd rather you not try to recruit at all...and I'm stuck on the possibility that you're scum and recruiting gives you

another

scum at this point. But, regardless, you didn't answer the question about what

might

happen if you recruit scum -- you just dodged it with an "I'm not gonna"
--So you say. But, from my perspective, it was you who gave legs to the "joke" by taking up the cause so vehemently. The only part of ET's post series that I interpreted as a true joke was the one in which he actually

said

"April Fool's" (the one I said "heh" to) -- I thought he was trying to lighten the mood after his horrible blunder. It looked to me as though you breathed life into his defense when you attacked me -- then ET saw a glimmer of hope and ran with it.
--And that one's not an answer...it's a comeback.

But I've obviously not made up my mind, so please keep talking.

--Agreed. But this is true of any of us.
--I'd rather I tried not to recruit at all at this point. And as to what

might

happen, your guess is as good as mine. I would guess that I would die, but then again, anything

might

happen.
--OK, so I made a huge blunder. I had no reason not to believe him until you claimed. Granted this isn't the best way to play mafia, but this is only my fourth game. In my eyes, jumping on him with no real evidence was more scummy than making a joke. Once you claimed, I obviously did have a reason not to believe him, but, as I've said, didn't have time to post.
--Personally, I know very few people who are imbeciles. If there's a hole in my logic, and it's pointed out to me, then its far better to admit my mistake and explain it than to continue argueing for flawed logic. If you did point out a hole in my logic that wasn't actually there, then yes, I would defend my point, but this isn't what happened.


@LordKrishna: Sure, I have no anti-town powers. Would you like me to start the revolution now or later? I don't know what this ability does, but the fact that revolutions are usually bloody occurances in which many people die, I figure this isn't going to be the most pro-town ability in the world, and furthermore would in fact suggest that it may benefit scum...

And where's the downside to your ability? You claim to be a cop/vig combination role. Admitedly there is a roleblocker for you, but surely any duel power role is very strong, and this particular combination all the more so.

And you haven't answered Mr Stoofer's question about Mme Thernadier.

[gootentag]

So basically, I can't vote of my own accord, but I can break a tie post deadline.

So if there are 3 people (you, X and Y), with X and Y voting for each other, after the deadlione is issued you can choose which of X or Y to save, and the other will be lynched at deadline?

Esentially, yes. In a normal game, if a deadline is imposed, a 1/2 majority is needed for a lynch. However, with three people, it is possible for two to have a half majority (one vote.) Therefore, the convention is to go back chronologically and see who received a 1/2 majority first and lynch them. I was told that I circumvent this last step - instead of relying on who got their vote in first, I can decide in the event of a tie. It also prevents the scum from getting an auto-win if they "wake up" and see the thread first. If the first post of the day was their vote, it would be game over otherwise.

[Mr Stoofer]

Are you sure about this? Some mods do not allow "half majorities" with fewer than 4 players alive. The rules posted by Aelyn in this game do not address the point.

[gootentag]

This is how it was clarified to me, paraphrased to avoid getting modkilled.

[Aelyn]

Monsieur Hugo clears his throat pointedly, reminding everyone what they're supposed to be doing.

If conversation doesn't pick up, guys, I may well have to set a deadline. I don't want to do that again.

[MeMe]

eeny meeny miney....

vote: Changling bob

[MeMe]

unvote: Cb

Forgot LK changed his vote to Cb...but that's the way I'm currently leaning.

[Aelyn]

Monsieur Hugo decides that, given MeMe's sudden show of indecision, it may be worth emphasising his decision to prompt others to speak up by pointing out who feels who is suspicious, right now.

Votecount:

Changling Bob

- 1 (LordKrishna)

Not voting:
MeMe, Changling Bob, Mr Stoofer, Gootentag.

[Mr Stoofer]

MeMe, I'm heading towards voting for LordKrishna. I'd really appreciate your reasoned views on why CB is the best candidate. Of the reasons you have given so far, the only one I found convincing was his support for EmpTyger on day 1. But I think that LordKrishna's attitutide was no less suspicious.

Gootentag - I'd value your thoughts too. Who would you vote for if you could?

[Changling bob]

MeMe, I'm heading towards voting for LordKrishna. I'd really appreciate your reasoned views on why CB is the best candidate. Of the reasons you have given so far, the only one I found convincing was his support for EmpTyger on day 1. But I think that LordKrishna's attitutide was no less suspicious.<snip>

I too would like to know why you consider me the best candidate. I realise I did a similar thing on day 1, chasing LML, but I posted my reasons with every post, whereas you have said you find me suspicious, but give me no way to defend myself. Even the last list of points you gave me, you didn't comment on my responses until I prompted you, and now when I counter these responses, it gets ignored again.

[gootentag]

As far as my suspicions go, right now I am leaning toward LordKrishna as well. However, ChanglingBob strikes me as the Best-Worst-Case-Scenario - his rebel-rousing ability seems most likely to do more harm than good and I am leary of stringing up LK if he's telling the truth. Since Meme is IMO the most "in the clear" due to yesterday's claim/counterclaim, that leaves a claimed doctor, a claimed cop and a claimed insurrectionist. I am most suspicious of LordKrishna, but I also clearly see why ChanglingBob makes sense as well.

As for directly WHO I would vote for if I could, I would probably either not yet be voting even if I could or be voting for LordKrishna.

[MeMe]

I totally understand the suspicion about LK and I'm not

sure

it's Cb. I'm torn as to who's more likely to be guilty...but my current leaning is based on taking a good look at the numbers.

Let's assume we started with 2 active scum (which I think is a sound assumption).

That means that we've either got one scum left OR, if Cb's scum, he may have recruited another last night (possible mechanic could be that he can recruit only if his partner's dead...but I think being allowed to recruit and kill in the same night would be way unfair, so I'm doubting this is the case).

If we have...
--One scum with no recruitment possibility: we can both lynch wrong

and

suffer a death tonight and we still have two alive to find the one scum tomorrow.
--Two scum (successful recruitment last night -- depends on Cb being scum): we're in lynch or lose.
--One scum with the possibility of another being gained tonight (again, only Cb): then the soundest play is either kill the recruiter, which would put us back to the top option of "one scum"...even if Cb's innocent, we should still be alright if we lynch him . We could alternatively go with a no-lynch -- but that would make it lynch or lose tomorrow and we'd still have to figure out the recruited party...and we'd also have to hope that recruiting/killing can't both happen on the same night or we'll lose outright.

Basically, if the scum is anyone

other

than Changling bob, we've got two days to find him. A good lynch yesterday means that a mistake won't fatal today. If it's Changling bob, however, we've got the recruitment mechanic to consider and lynching anyone else could be the end of us as we could be:
-- 2 scum to 3 town right now (again, I think this unlikely but it must be considered)...wrong lynch loses it
or
--1 scum to 4 town right now...wrong lynch makes it 1 scum to 3 town...overnight recruitment makes it 2 scum to 2 town...we lose it.

Do you understand what I'm saying? If we're trying to decide between two lynchees and one of them can recruit...then I think the choice is a no-brainer.

vote: Changling bob

[Mr Stoofer]

I had also appreciated that we probably have 2 chances to lynch the scum to win. As you know, LordKrishna is my best bet at present. My second choice would be Changling Bob, not so much for anything he has done, but simply because I think it even less likely that MeMe or gootentag are scum. So until I read MeMe's post I was prepared to vote for either CB or LordKrishna - with a vote on the other tomorrow (subject to further discussion/consideration/pleading, of course).

However, MeMe's points on recruitment make perfect sense to me. It's better to eliminate the risk of CB being a recruiting scumbag, than to vote for LordKrishna, who can safely wait until tomorrow if he is scum.

Sorry Bob. I can't take the risk.

Vote: Changling Bob

.

[Aelyn]

After Monsieur Hugo asks the town to please speak up, they decide the request should be taken as an order, and quickly decide that perhaps killing someone is a wise idea after all. Changling Bob asks the general public who would be best to lynch, and MeMe quickly pipes up that perhaps he is - after all, he had explained that he was the most persuasive of all the people there... However, his persuasive abilities are of no use to him as Mr Stoofer and MeMe grab him. They disarm him, removing the sabre in its scabbard from his waist, and ask if he had any final words.

“Vive la revolution!”

You all walk away, happy to have found the vicious leader of the revolution.



The revolution meant to bring justice and happiness to the downtrodden masses…

You realize that maybe, just maybe, Enjolras was not a bad man.

End-of-day votecount:

Changling Bob

- 3 (LordKrishna, MeMe, Mr Stoofer)

Not voting:
Changling Bob, Gootentag.

Changling Bob (Enjolras, recruiting mason) has been lynched.

Again, please get night choices in to me as soon as possible. Thanks.

[Aelyn]

Guys, I'm setting a deadline for night 3. All night choices

must

be in by the deadline. If you don't want to use a night ability, please send me a PM to that effect.

Anyone with a night action which I don't recieve by the deadline will be replaced.

Deadline: Monday, 3.30 pm GMT.

[Aelyn]

Poor Eponine! She lost the love of her life last night… She showed him the way to his true love, despite the gut-wrenching knowledge that this meant she could never have him.

She returned to the place where he died, the night after, to mourn.

“On my own… pretending he’s beside me.
All alone, I walked with him till morning.
In the darkness, I felt his arms around me…
And when I lost my way I closed my eyes, and he had found me.”

Sobbing, she rose to leave, tears blinding her to the huddle of men following her.

“I loved him
But now the night is over
He is gone, the river’s just a river
Without him the world around me changes
The trees are bare and everywhere
The streets are full of strangers!”

Saying these words, she turned, with love, passion, and sadness filling her young heart. Gasping, she saw a flicker out of the corner of her eye…

“What have we here?”
“Who is this hussy?”

Panicking, Eponine rushed out of the garden, into the street, babbling in desperation to send the men away. They followed her, wicked grins on their faces.

“Don’t interfere
You’ve got some gall
Take care, young miss
You’ve got a lot to say!”
“Go home, ’Ponine
Go home, you’re in the way.”

Despite her fear, Eponine realised she had to do something. Out of the corner of her eye, she saw a solitary figure in the street, watching dispassionately.

“I’m gonna scream, I’m gonna warn them here.”
“Not a sound out of you!”

The man turned, and walked away, apparently uninterested in getting involved.

“Well, I told you I’d do it
Told you I’d do it…”

One of the shadowy figures lunged forward.

Eponine screamed.


The blood trickled down her front, from where her assailant had stabbed her. She slid slowly to the floor, her sudden lack of strength snapping her already-fragile mind. She smiled, seeing something that no-one else could see.

“Don’t you fret, M’sieur Marius,
I don’t feel any pain.
A little fall of rain
Can hardly hurt me now.
You’re here. That’s all I need to know.
And you will keep me safe
And you will keep me close
And rain… will make the flowers…

grow

.”

Mr Stoofer (Eponine, doctor) has been stabbed to death.

It’s now day 2. 3 alive, 2 to lynch.

[MeMe]

Please don't vote without

much

conversation first.

Anyone got stuff they need to say?

[gootentag]

I am obviously curious as to the results that LK may or may not have gotten last night. I maintain that it is possible that he is Mme Thenardier, particularly in light of Mr. Stoofer's death and his near insistance on her existance. Especially since Meme is (IMO) the most cleared out of the three of us following EmpTyger's claim gambit day one. If you really are Javert, however, I am still not convinced of your pro-town allignment.

[LordKrishna]

Damn. If we lynch wrong, we lose.

I investigated Stoofer last night, and got the result that I can't find anything specific wrong that he had done, though he had previously engaged in lookout activites for criminals. I thought it would be unsafe for the Town to arrest him based solely on that.

-K