Mafiascum.net

In post 316, shellyc wrote:Your case is "Oh shelly is scum because they are playing so similar to last game" which is faulty meta analysis. I can play like scum when I'm town because you've never seen a town game from me.

This sounds like both MUSH and Magik’s argument and doesn’t seem like natural defense.

In post 333, shellyc wrote:I will repeat this one more time. Just because I did these things as scum doesn't mean I can't do these things as town. (My tendencies happen

as both alignments.)

...

We don’t know this. I don’t know this and was my main argument for reading you the way I did/do.

In post 329, Redados wrote:We can go back and forth whether or not it is AI, but it is anti-town.

I’m not so sure being defensive is anti-town. It’s just a personality or play style trait imo.

In post 329, Redados wrote:You say that my case on you is that you are playing similar to last game and you were scum. My actual "case" on you (which is less of a case and more of a scumread) is that you are playing in a similar, anti-town way to last game and you were scum last game.

This.

In post 341, MUSHSHAGANA wrote:I don’t really disagree that rocknil could be a miselimination waiting to happen...

So then should we really eliminate him? He may stink as a player, but if that’s not the best move than maybe we should rethink it. Frogster has already done so in 336 & 338.

In post 341, MUSHSHAGANA wrote:He IS, unequivocally, the easiest target to get a wagon on based on stated elimination pools. He also is one of the lowest engagement players and THE lowest information player, and his elimination (regardless of flip) substantially tightens the game state.

What am I missing with Frederick?

In post 341, MUSHSHAGANA wrote:Reframing this: Does anyone except Shelly object to a Shelly elimination? Can we get a lock on an elimination wagon and promises that active players will push it to completion no matter their gripes, please? Because otherwise I’m saying that we stick with rocknil because no other player is that slow to respond and lacking in any informational content, and no other player has as many potential happy voters waiting to plonk down on them.

I don’t object. As the day has gone on I feel more comfortable with it. I just had to build the read more organically, so even though we clashed, thanks for letting me see that.

In post 342, MUSHSHAGANA wrote:Second reframe: Shelly is a high information target for elimination, MagikHorse is not.

MagikHorse has done far less interacting with the majority of players, more bouncing off of them than pushing anything too hard.

Since Frogster’s MagikHorse vote is in part based on scum-interpreted Shelly interactions, I would recommend her over him.

(Bolded) And how do you feel about this? What are your feelings towards Magik, unless of course you don’t want to reveal it, then I guess it’s fine.

@Frogsterking: Coukd you let me know what towntold is again. I asked one of the SE’s last game and I’ve looked in his posts but I can’t find what he said.

And what’s with MUSH and shelly wanting to and actually voting for themselves? Come on, y’all been talking about anti-town behavior all day and this is anti town. I think we should chill with the dramatics as I’m fairly sure we can come to an agreement.

As a matter of fact I’m gonna change my vote back.

VOTE: Shellyc that’s E-2.

BTW, welcome to the game Lavar, good to have you.

In post 404, ItalianoVD wrote:As a matter of fact I’m gonna change my vote back.

VOTE: Shellyc that’s E-2.

BTW, welcome to the game Lavar, good to have you.

I've literally roleclaimed. I hope my townieness will shine through in these dying moments. Because I will flip town.

In post 403, ItalianoVD wrote:And what’s with MUSH and shelly wanting to and actually voting for themselves? Come on, y’all been talking about anti-town behavior all day and this is anti town. I think we should chill with the dramatics as I’m fairly sure we can come to an agreement.

If I get eliminated and I flip as a Vanilla Townie, you / Redados will be able to not get paranoid about my alignment, the town will get associative tells, the people on my wagon would be under scrutiny, and there would be an abundance of scumtells and towntells generating from my eliminate. Explain why this is anti town. I will die for the greater good, if it is required.

IMO Redados actually looks more town to me now. their reaction to my self-vote seemed town; scum would latch onto that and quickhammer me.

In post 405, shellyc wrote:

In post 404, ItalianoVD wrote:As a matter of fact I’m gonna change my vote back.

VOTE: Shellyc that’s E-2.

BTW, welcome to the game Lavar, good to have you.

I've literally roleclaimed. I hope my townieness will shine through in these dying moments. Because I will flip town.

You roleclaimed last game and were scum.

In post 406, shellyc wrote:

In post 403, ItalianoVD wrote:And what’s with MUSH and shelly wanting to and actually voting for themselves? Come on, y’all been talking about anti-town behavior all day and this is anti town. I think we should chill with the dramatics as I’m fairly sure we can come to an agreement.

If I get eliminated and I flip as a Vanilla Townie, you / Redados will be able to not get paranoid about my alignment, the town will get associative tells, the people on my wagon would be under scrutiny, and there would be an abundance of scumtells and towntells generating from my eliminate. Explain why this is anti town. I will die for the greater good, if it is required.
It’s anti-town because it knowingly hurts our wincon. Remember when I tried to “honor” the death pact last game and was told in so many words I was being stupid. That was anti-town then. Even though it was late in the game and now it’s Day 1, at no point does it make sense for town to self-eliminate, especially in this setup.

In post 406, shellyc wrote:

In post 403, ItalianoVD wrote:And what’s with MUSH and shelly wanting to and actually voting for themselves? Come on, y’all been talking about anti-town behavior all day and this is anti town. I think we should chill with the dramatics as I’m fairly sure we can come to an agreement.

If I get eliminated and I flip as a Vanilla Townie, you / Redados will be able to not get paranoid about my alignment, the town will get associative tells, the people on my wagon would be under scrutiny, and there would be an abundance of scumtells and towntells generating from my eliminate. Explain why this is anti town. I will die for the greater good, if it is required.

It’s anti-town because it knowingly hurts our wincon. Remember when I tried to “honor” the death pact last game and was told in so many words I was being stupid. That was anti-town then. Even though it was late in the game and now it’s Day 1, at no point does it make sense for town to self-eliminate, especially in this setup.

I'm putting this out there: we have 48 hours and some change. If we can get a Shelly elimination right now, let's dial back and start re-reading the past little bit of play and putting pressure where it needs to be for Day 2.

Caveat: UNLESS every active player can agree on a different target from Shelly when the time window is closer, Shelly MUST be the elimination.

That means we don't try and go for targets we begin to think are better. That sort of last minute cat herding is a terrible, terrible plan and will end in no-elimination.

Can we agree on that? Can we scum hunt while the clock runs down some, or do we need to start pushing for either Shelly or Rocknil as policy eliminations (since they're equal in "will be voted for gladly" numbers right now)?



I, for one, will vote Shelly to end the day with an actual elimination. I will vote just about anyone to do that, really, but I'm laying it down in writing: I will vote that wagon for an elimination. Unless there is overwhelming consensus to vote for someone else instead of Shelly just before the deadline, I will stand by that.

In post 409, ItalianoVD wrote:It’s anti-town because it knowingly hurts our wincon. Remember when I tried to “honor” the death pact last game and was told in so many words I was being stupid. That was anti-town then. Even though it was late in the game and now it’s Day 1, at no point does it make sense for town to self-eliminate, especially in this setup.

You weren't being stupid. If Porkens was actually scum, the death pact would turn out effective.

Well, that was anti town in that situation. Doesn't mean it's anti town now.

Town's wincon is to eliminate all the scum. If my eliminate helps town find the scum I am willing to do so.

In post 412, shellyc wrote:Town's wincon is to eliminate all the scum. If my eliminate helps town find the scum I am willing to do so.

I am under the impression you are not interested in explaining why you thought I scumread you from the start.

In post 358, Frogsterking wrote:

In post 356, Fredrick A Campbell wrote:When I first entered the game and thought she behaved the scummiest of all the players, I thought her thinking I had a scumread on her was because she simply failed to understand that I didn't necessarily think she was scum. However, as she continued to say that I scumread her from the start despite my many attempts at clarification, I chalked it up to the possibility she really believes that I thought she was scum and retracted it. This belief has been shattered after I see that she could clearly imagine a possibility in which something explicit was not said here. However, within that post in which I said I thought she behaved the scummiest, I made it very clear I made a distinction between behaving the scummiest and likely to be scum and even thought that whoever I thought was behaving the scummiest was irrelevant. Yet, she could not understand it despite my many attempts at clarification. I believe the most likely possibility now is that she has deliberately not understood to continue to scumread me.

idk. i am working on a response to your data you posted earlier. it would help if u posted the results of the iso u were reading earlier.

I only finished going through Redados ISO and how long it took me to do so is reminding me why I usually don't go through ISOs to ascertain alignment. I have found that typically I only remember the last thing made me conclude someone is a certain alignment instead of every little detail before that that brought me to the conclusion unless I take notes while reading through, which I didn't and on second thought should have.

More equipment failures. My participation is still guaranteed, but it’s getting to the point I might need to plug a keyboard into my PS3 to do it.

In post 413, Fredrick A Campbell wrote:I am under the impression you are not interested in explaining why you thought I scumread you from the start.

I have explained. I was under the impression that scummy = being scum. I am sorry for misunderstanding, but attacking me for a simple misunderstanding isn't helping town.

In post 412, shellyc wrote:Town's wincon is to eliminate all the scum. If my eliminate helps town find the scum I am willing to do so.

Yes but purposely removing a town slot, without having close to a guarantee it gets scum, helps the scum wincon ultimately.

I think shellyc is behaving rather townily because of her utter willingness to be the hang. However, some of you have said that she played similarly in your last game with her? That doesn't make me feel as good.
Right now, I have Italiano, MUSH, and shelly(tentatively) as town. I have Redados, Frogster, and Fredrick in my null pile. I am fine with hanging either MagikHorse or rocknil. MagikHorse because I think he has been mostly unoffensive in his posts and I noticed he tends to react to other people instead of bringing up new things. I think scum would take this route more often than not because it's quite safe and it's easy to get townread for it. rocknil because he isn't doing much.

In post 406, shellyc wrote:IMO Redados actually looks more town to me now. their reaction to my self-vote seemed town; scum would latch onto that and quickhammer me.

Would you mind fleshing out this thought a little more? Your vote put yourself at E-2, and I already had a vote on you. If I were scum, the other scum vote could not have limmed you. So how is quickhammering relevant?

In post 410, MUSHSHAGANA wrote:I'm putting this out there: we have 48 hours and some change. If we can get a Shelly elimination right now, let's dial back and start re-reading the past little bit of play and putting pressure where it needs to be for Day 2.

Caveat: UNLESS every active player can agree on a different target from Shelly when the time window is closer, Shelly MUST be the elimination.

That means we don't try and go for targets we begin to think are better. That sort of last minute cat herding is a terrible, terrible plan and will end in no-elimination.

Can we agree on that? Can we scum hunt while the clock runs down some, or do we need to start pushing for either Shelly or Rocknil as policy eliminations (since they're equal in "will be voted for gladly" numbers right now)?



I, for one, will vote Shelly to end the day with an actual elimination. I will vote just about anyone to do that, really, but I'm laying it down in writing: I will vote that wagon for an elimination. Unless there is overwhelming consensus to vote for someone else instead of Shelly just before the deadline, I will stand by that.

In the last game I played, this wasn't really an issue. In the final 48 hours or so, we got three separate people to E-1 before limming. Is this not common? We learned a lot from those interactions.

In post 414, Fredrick A Campbell wrote:I only finished going through Redados ISO and how long it took me to do so is reminding me why I usually don't go through ISOs to ascertain alignment. I have found that typically I only remember the last thing made me conclude someone is a certain alignment instead of every little detail before that that brought me to the conclusion unless I take notes while reading through, which I didn't and on second thought should have.

ISOs are pretty time consuming, and it's hard for me to based on an ISO. How I used them last game was more to get reads and remind myself of certain events that happen. It's great that you're coming at it from an analytical perspective, but I'm not sure if that's efficient or optimal.

In post 418, LavarManos wrote:I think shellyc is behaving rather townily because of her utter willingness to be the hang. However, some of you have said that she played similarly in your last game with her? That doesn't make me feel as good.
Right now, I have Italiano, MUSH, and shelly(tentatively) as town. I have Redados, Frogster, and Fredrick in my null pile. I am fine with hanging either MagikHorse or rocknil. MagikHorse because I think he has been mostly unoffensive in his posts and I noticed he tends to react to other people instead of bringing up new things. I think scum would take this route more often than not because it's quite safe and it's easy to get townread for it. rocknil because he isn't doing much.

I don't think less of you for not scumreading Shelly, because I do feel that it's a meta read to some extent. However, I really would say that not wanting to be hanged is NAI (Not Alignment Indicative). No one wants to be hang, no matter their alignment. If you're town, it hurts yourself to be mislimmed. If you're scum it hurts yourself to lose a member of scum.

As an aside, I suggest that you create an avatar! It makes it easy for me to follow your posts.

Well, my Saturday got all sorts of flooded. Saturdays are rather busy for me anyways, so meh.

Catching up now.

In post 340, Frogsterking wrote:I've given myself enough time to let the thread sink in I think and MagikHorse stuck out too much.

In my opinion if the rocknil lynch will just go down like that either i just nailed it straight out of the park or the scum are in the mid-activity posters like magikhorse and if not him then italiano. I feel too much for the hubris and what-not which makes me change even if that means sometimes i was just right the first time.

Why do I stick out, and what are you saying regarding the Rocknil elim here?

In post 342, MUSHSHAGANA wrote:Second reframe: Shelly is a high information target for elimination, MagikHorse is not. MagikHorse has done far less interacting with the majority of players, more bouncing off of them than pushing anything too hard. Since Frogster’s MagikHorse vote is in part based on scum-interpreted Shelly interactions, I would recommend her over him.

So you don't think I was pushing hard on Italiano at all then? Sure it was somewhat based on his bad logic, but I was at least trying to crack through to see if there were some shady motivations behind that. I could easily see scum!Italiano trying to get revenge on Shelly from the game before and hoping I'd see something to indicate that within.

In post 353, shellyc wrote:If we lim rocknil we get 0 associative tells as they have only townread Mush (which was pretty much universal anyways)

If we lim me you get an abundance of tells and analysis. I guess I will get my own wagon starting. Good luck to y'all tomorrow. My pure town energy will be in the dead thread.

Vote:shellyc

I wish I could say I saw this coming, but I didn't see this coming. Even then it feels like an emotional player caught up in frustration trying to be helpful in the wrong way?

You guys are right on Rocknil though. CLATS is not a great scenario without supporting reasons.

In post 385, Frogsterking wrote:

@magikhorse

if u could insta-kill anyone right now who would it be?

Honestly, Frederick at this point. I think Shelly is just emotional town, and everyone's right about the lack of info from a Rocknil flip.