Mafiascum.net

FourTrouble wrote:I disagree that 383 didn't look informed. Syryana made the basis of her case on CES some WIFOM-filled analysis about how CES is still alive, and that is not something I see coming from a town POV because it means Syryana is assuming CES is scum as a starting point. Town don't assume anything because they are uninformed whereas scum tend to make assumptions about alignments when making their cases because they already know the alignment of everyone.

I really couldn't disagree more. Assumptions are the bread and butter of this game; you can't make any decisions without making assumptions about Look at Drunk and Disorderly up there. They've been waffling the whole game, since they keep WIFOMing themselves into paranoia about everyone thanks to a lack of assumptions about anyone. But this is really an MD discussion; I'll get to my point.

I never assumed CES to be scum. After sorting through those 14 pages of fluff'n'stuff when I replaced in, I made some reads based off what I saw and my intuition. Here's what I got:

Sotty7: Townread. There was generic townieness to her posts, but what really got me was the frustration she showed when people started dismissing or shitting on her reads. I think it's super hard to formulate something like that when scum; granted I don't know Sotty well enough to meta that out of her, but it's just really hard to manufacture something like that.

Drunk and Disorderly: Weak townread. This one was pretty much a gutread. I liked how they ask people questions and analyze the answers. I degraded this to weak because of a post they made in twilight along the lines of "If I die tonight, here are my thoughts", because in games I've played in the past this almost universally turned out to be a scumtell. Could be just a paranoia hangup, which is why they got degraded to weak townread instead of scumread. I'd like to hear more of their opinions though, rather than watching them ask everyone else questions.

JasonT1981: Null. He lurked, he voted Whiskers, that's pretty much it. Didn't have enough information to make a decision, so I ignored him.

Nacho: Slight gut scumread. He seemed pretty logical and I agreed with some of his points (namely about jason), but he just had some odd statements. Like making himself a threat to CES as scum, his rigorous defense of RachMarie. Just didn't sit quite right with me.

FourTrouble: My opinion on you morphed from townread to scumread the further I got through the thread. Initial town gut call on the RachMarie ragefest, but I didn't like how vague you were when explaining your reasoning on your reads. I also didn't like how quiet you got after the Sixty fight. I ended up picking you over Nacho to be CES's scumpartner in my argument thanks to the timing of your L-1 and CES's hammer.

CES: Null. Shocking, I know, that I should have a null read on CES. My argument on him arose from mental WIFOM regarding his quickhammer and the fact that he's not dead yet. I won't rehash the argument, but after I figured CES had to either be horrendously misinformed and way off on the scum, or an evil genius playing gambits to fool the other veterans. I went with the evil genius.

So that's the thought process which spawned my argument for CES/FT scum. I'll probably post some more thoughts after we hear back from D+D and more importantly after I sleep.

FourTrouble wrote:I do think CES is town though and on the right track in terms of finding Syryana's partner. Dazed and Confused is still town. Sotty is still town too but I have my doubts creeping in.

Why do you think CES is town? And what's causing doubts about Sotty?

↑ FourTrouble wrote:I also don't see how the way he broke his thought process down relates to alignment?

Because it implies he has a thought process to break down. That's not that likely if he were scum.

↑ FourTrouble wrote:I disagree that 383 didn't look informed. Syryana made the basis of her case on CES some WIFOM-filled analysis about how CES is still alive, and that is not something I see coming from a town POV because it means Syryana is assuming CES is scum as a starting point. Town don't assume anything because they are uninformed whereas scum tend to make assumptions about alignments when making their cases because they already know the alignment of everyone.

Newbies convinced of my scummitude is sadly not that uncommon a phenomenon. I care more about his lack of insight into the nightkill motivation.

↑ Syryana wrote:Sotty7: Townread. There was generic townieness to her posts, but what really got me was the frustration she showed when people started dismissing or shitting on her reads. I think it's super hard to formulate something like that when scum; granted I don't know Sotty well enough to meta that out of her, but it's just really hard to manufacture something like that.

See her title.

You don't have to worry about Dazzled and Blinded as their townieness is beyond questioning. Empire doesn't even have a scum game.

↑ jasonT1981 wrote:prod received, its 3.40am. Thought I had posted yesterday, obv not. Post tomorrow when its not 3.40am

Come on dude.

↑ FourTrouble wrote:

↑ Sotty7 wrote:I liked him breaking down his thought process a lot. I think the detail was good, for Four to just crap on all that was pretty poor. The WIFOM nightkill stuff is what it is, but CES did little on day one that much is true.

If you liked the way he broke down his thought process, why didn't you like the part about me? It was equally if not more detailed than the section on CES. I also don't see how the way he broke his thought process down relates to alignment?

I defend people I think are town all the time when I am town, which is what you are being accused of. I don't hunt scum buddies like that, I think it is dangerous.

I could probably compromise on Nacho at this point. I want to see where D+C finally put their vote and also where Jason votes.

Nachomamma8 has been prodded.

↑ Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:Newbies convinced of my scummitude is sadly not that uncommon a phenomenon.

Well, you do have that sort of self-satisfied, arrogant air of "I'm gonna win this for all of us" about you. Easy to get a false scumread from that, or at least pick the scum end of the WIFOM you give everyone to work with

Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
See her title.

You don't have to worry about Dazzled and Blinded as their townieness is beyond questioning. Empire doesn't even have a scum game.

So, Stumped and Stupefied are town for much the same reason Sixty was town, because there isn't an argument to be made to the contrary? As a general rule I suspect people that bury me in avalanches of obvtown. Thank God Tierce is dead; I'd have more people to suspect.

↑ Sotty7 wrote:Do you mean who is an easy target for him to attack? Like I said, I don't think anyone is easy in this game.

I'm talking about the target of least resistance for scum-Jason. There are a limited amount of mislynches he can push without getting shit for it, and FT is definitely one of them. CES is going to be a hard player to lynch thanks to the playerlist, so he definitely needs a backup plan if the CES-push fails. And he's going to fall on... who?

Why are we talking about hypo Jason lynches? I mean, I don't get it. You are much guiltier of what you are trying to push on him here. I can barely take what you are typing seriously.

↑ Syryana wrote:Thank God Tierce is dead; I'd have more people to suspect.

Didn't you say somewhere that they were "obv town"? I'm also kinda weirded out by you copying CES and his mocking of D+C's name. That's a gut thing though so.. I just don't know what to do with it. It's like you're doing it to get on his good side while attacking him. I don't know. It's bugging me.

I did come here this morning to say I would be back when I have slept for more than four hours, but there has been so little content lately so I wasn't even as behind as I should have been. Lets pick it up a bit here.

Sorry to be lame, but this is a rushed placeholder post as I run to work. I know there are a million things I need to respond to.

VOTE: Nachomamma8

It was honestly a coin toss between him and jason. More later.

(FWIW, since you brought it up, Sotty, I feel the same way about this statement:

Well, you do have that sort of self-satisfied, arrogant air of "I'm gonna win this for all of us" about you. Easy to get a false scumread from that, or at least pick the scum end of the WIFOM you give everyone to work with :p

↑ Sotty7 wrote:Why are we talking about hypo Jason lynches? I mean, I don't get it. You are much guiltier of what you are trying to push on him here. I can barely take what you are typing seriously.

Yes, I am. I am pushing what should be the easiest lynch in the game right now, and I am putting my vote behind it. I see jason being a lurking scumfuck and I am lynching him for it. Jason is posturing fpr HIS easiest lynch in the game while sheeping recent CES hate.

↑ Sotty7 wrote:Didn't you say somewhere that they were "obv town"? I'm also kinda weirded out by you copying CES and his mocking of D+C's name. That's a gut thing though so.. I just don't know what to do with it. It's like you're doing it to get on his good side while attacking him. I don't know. It's bugging me.

Of course they were obvtown, which made me suspect them. Where I come from, obvtown means scum trying to fit in as town. I actually had intended on saying originally that Sixty and CES were my top suspects (Sixty for all the obvtown, CES because of, well, I'm not going over that again). Then Sixty went and got themselves killed, spoiling that perfectly good paranoia theory.

Also, mocking Dazzled and Ditsy's name is amusing.

VOTE: jasonT1981

FT, still think Syryana is scum?

↑ Syryana wrote:Of course they were obvtown, which made me suspect them.

what.

Jason needs to stop being a lazy fuck for once and post.

Fourtrouble and JasonT1981 have been prodded.

Going to a basketball game today, will post my thoughts tomorrow.

HIBERNATION COMPLETE

ALL SYSTEMS CHARGED

SPAM MODE INITIATED

I may be regretting this hydra name. But I mean...considering we're already called , aren't we really already mocking ourselves? Why do the work of coming up with parody names that are more flattering than our actual ones?

Argh, Zach... You know I'm V/LA at weekends.

Been trying to sort my own game out as of late.. back soon

You don't sound at all apologetic.

↑ Dazed and Confused wrote:I may be regretting this hydra name. But I mean...considering we're already called

Dazed and Confused

, aren't we really already mocking ourselves? Why do the work of coming up with parody names that are more flattering than our actual ones?

I'm just doing D&D references, for the record.

(preview edit: the references flew miles over my head)

Hydra dissonance alert: I voted Nacho mainly because Empire was leaning that way, and I don't trust my reads this game anymore. (There, now you can all keep making smug disparaging remarks about my play. I'd almost ruined it through my hard decisive stance-taking in the form of a vote on someone you totally never would have realized was on our suspect list otherwise!) Nacho/jason is...plausible if Rach was telling the truth about Nacho loving to bus, I guess, and it explains why Nacho seems so convinced that jason to be lynched. But meh.

CES, talk to me about Nacho. Can you sell me on this lynch, or alternately, just explain what you see there? I'm looking for an epiphany on him. Your vote was on him since really early in the game, when virtually everything he'd posted was null, IMO. I'm rereading, and I kind of feel like the whole case on Nacho is just PoE and burden of proficiency/him not looking town . Empire thinks he's being lazy and not giving a shit, but I'm not sure I see anything I can confidently call scummy.

FT, I've got a really random question. What do you know about Josh's meta?

↑ Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
- I never explained those things because those weren't things I believed? Josh, Jason and Nacho all seemed suspicious to me but Josh's suspicion came for a not insignificant part from that "Nacho and Sotty are town but I can't point to any posts apparently that suggested the read" so {Nacho, jason} and {Nacho, josh} were the teams that felt right to me. Josh/Sotty was unlikely because 1) Sotty seemed town (*-*) and 2) he also did mention new stuff about Sotty when pressed; that didn't look like a partner interaction at all.\

Um, from page 2...

I may just be nitpicking over stupid stuff right now, but I'm missing something. You thought Josh was significantly less likely to be scum if Nacho wasn't scum? I'm not sure I see why, considering you suspected him before he did something that you thought was a Nacho buddy tell. And where does jason fit into this?

Syryana, what made you go for jason in particular? He was ranked a lot lower than some other people on your suspect list. (And yes, I still need to answer your question, particularly since I've been pretty vague about you so far, but I'm lazy and easy posts come first.)

Sotty confuses me, particularly since I townhunt more than scumhunt. She has some reactions that feel town, but then her stances often strike me as off or bad. My impression was that her scumbag strength lay in sounding reasonable and pushing cases, not emoting and hitting the right notes. I don't know if you're damn good.

Quote strip wall wheeeeeeeeeee!

↑ Dazed and Confused wrote:You had CES as a town read for his play on D1, for crying out loud!

You might want to check this fact. I had CES as my weakest town read simply because he is CES. You even questioned me on this. This is like the second time in recent memory you have misrepp'ed me like this. The first was you saying I was suspicious of Jason all day one, when I actually called him town at first before slowly changing my mind and then again 180'ing today.

"Misrepp'd." That's a loaded term. Please don't beat around the bush. Do you suspect us, yes or no (or qualified maybe)?

I did remember, but it wasn't relevant to my point. What you're telling me is that he acted like CES (so nothing out of the ordinary at all) but you also agree with Syr's assessment of his play as fluffy non-contribution?

Also saying it's okay to have a town read on Syryana after his big post but then saying me agreeing with what he posting is scummy, in what backwards world does that make any sense? Either I liked the post and agreed with some points, or the points were bad and fluffy and my vote sticks?

Disagree completely. How else do you read players like Furcolow? Townies passionately argue illogical or absurd points all the time. This is what bugged me about Whiskers--I could buy FourTrouble being somewhat self-centered and accusing Rach of persecuting him, but not an impartial observer. Likewise, I can buy a newbie or someone from a site with a different meta honestly believing that CES's survival means he's scum. I wouldn't buy it from you.

You need to stop waffling and get your vote down, this time on an actual scum suspect. This voting CES to test the waters is really kinda shitty in such a small game like this. We don't have time for fancy plays like this and it was why I was so lost on why you didn't actually want me to vote CES with you. Maybe I ruined this "gambit" without realizing, but what were you hoping to get from it?

It's not like we went, "CES is town, but let's vote him for TEH RXS!" The policy-lynch suggestion was whimsical and fueled by paranoia, but would have been semi-serious if he'd mentioned the VT claim. But I didn't actually have a stronger case than "He's CES and quickhammered the cop, so fuck it, let's just lynch the bastard!" Ever vote someone you're not convinced is scum just to feel him out?

When we changed our minds, I figured announcing it would be antitown. Part of it was wanting CES to feel like he was still under pressure , but I also thought the scum would swing for a CES mislynch with my and possibly Syr's votes assured. And people often take cues on what the "correct" position is from whatever's voiced most often in the thread, so I didn't want to bias their reactions. Total transparency is overrated. As for what I hoped to get out of it? Well, reactions like jason's...or, um, yours.

What about my Whiskers stance didn't you like? It was you who was trying to convince me to vote him yesterday because you thought I was town and the "wagon needed my support for a lynch" or something like that. Would you feel better if I started talking about how town I am in this game (which I am) and then just sheeped you without stopping to question anything?

That was Empire, but anyway. My problem is that you were very passive during his lynch, and didn't fight for one side or the other. Feels like how scum would play it, I guess. Also didn't like the wavering between "boy, this case is confusing and going waaay over my head"/"you're my soul mate, Whiskey-poo <3"/"sure, he's an okay lynch."

And that last line (along with the first paragraph of your post) is what I mean about reactions that seduce my inner townhunter. If it makes you feel better, I read your ISO in Shadow Hunters and whimpered. Tierce gets away with that because she's easier to read than you are, and she exacerbates this tenfold by having no confidence whatsoever in her scum game.

↑ Dazed and Confused wrote:

↑ Cogito Ergo Sum wrote:
- I never explained those things because those weren't things I believed? Josh, Jason and Nacho all seemed suspicious to me but Josh's suspicion came for a not insignificant part from that "Nacho and Sotty are town but I can't point to any posts apparently that suggested the read" so {Nacho, jason} and {Nacho, josh} were the teams that felt right to me. Josh/Sotty was unlikely because 1) Sotty seemed town (*-*) and 2) he also did mention new stuff about Sotty when pressed; that didn't look like a partner interaction at all.\

Um, from page 2...

I may just be nitpicking over stupid stuff right now, but I'm missing something. You thought Josh was significantly less likely to be scum if Nacho wasn't scum? I'm not sure I see why, considering you suspected him before he did something that you thought was a Nacho buddy tell. And where does jason fit into this?

I have lower standards on page 3. I think mostly what's happening here is that you're assigning my original "common link" too much weight; I mean, it definitely reflects my thought processes at the time but I was only being semi-serious.

↑ Dazed and Confused wrote:CES, talk to me about Nacho. Can you sell me on this lynch, or alternately, just explain what you see there? I'm looking for an epiphany on him. Your vote was on him since really early in the game, when virtually everything he'd posted was null, IMO. I'm rereading, and I kind of feel like the whole case on Nacho is just PoE and burden of proficiency/him not looking town enough. Empire thinks he's being lazy and not giving a shit, but I'm not sure I see anything I can confidently call scummy.

I don't think you're going to have an epiphany. It is a lot of the case, admittedly. Part of it is what Empire's saying too, although I'd describe it more as a Monday-type vibe of not really engaging with the game. I'd point to the CESmeta post too, although that felt more like posturing.

Admit it, CES. You're only readable this game to lull me into a false sense of security the next time I play with you, right?

Hey, Nacho:

↑ Nachomamma8 wrote:

↑ jasonT1981 wrote:I shall try... I am failing in all my games right now. :/ all my fuckin' pre-ins came up at once lately. I try catching up in one, I fall behind in another. URGH

it feels like my hands are tied with regards to you right now and I hate it.

Explain this.

↑ Nachomamma8 wrote:

↑ Whiskers wrote:I especially like your case.

Are you done catching up for today?

↑ Nachomamma8 wrote:

↑ Whiskers wrote:No, I just finished Page 8.

Why do you ask?

Doesn't matter for now.

And this.