Mafiascum.net

W/e, at least I know now Tammy is town, BRO-Desp is town, Cupcake is town, and PeregrineV is town so you are going to lose this game anyways.

:/

Pedit: What are you referring to?

In post 5349, CarbonFiber wrote:Penguin, I explained why I reacted the way I did. My push on you in ETL's resistance didn't make any sort of sense whatsoever and I said that part of the reason for the push was to confuse people and create chaos.

I make "over-the-top" pushes as town too. Did you already forget the "tragic penguin pictures" from Cowardly Hider?

I explained why I freaked out over one vote because I was paranoid that it was part of a larger scum plan. I legitimately have finals and am really, really behind and that's making me irritable and prickly overall because I'm playing this game as I watch more time fly by instead of studying.

It feels like you suddenly reacted to me accusing you by pushing back on me. What scum motivation is there to accuse you when I learned from ETL's Resistance that you would prevail? I respect your abilities and if you are town in a game where I am scum, I target my game towards you and try my best to fool you because that's what works. Going after you never did and I wouldn't expect it to. I am not Mastin and the way I view you when I am scum couldn't be more different.

Your over the top push on Tammy comes from nothing reasonable I can see. And I did what you asked overnight and read through your ISO. Part of what I discussed with Tammy was that I wasn't seeing strong town-you in it, so while I can maybe see that my read on you comes out of thin air, rest assured that it's been building for the last couple of days.

I remember your tragic penguin pics (my soul hasn't recovered, TYVM) but even there you had an agenda with being OTT, like you did in Resistance. Trouble is I don't see the town agenda here for flipping out on Tammy. I'd say it's emotional, except let's face it, neither of your past OTT responses have been anything other than strategic, either trying to paint me as scum or figure out if I'm scum.

Although interesting that you posit that you wouldn't have changed aspects of your game post-Wicked whereas I would have.

On a side note, seriously, I know it's the end of the school year for semester people (yay quarter system) and there are important non-Mafia obligations. This is a game. It's been really intense from what I've read, and I think it feels ramped up with how high emotions have been running. If I'm wrong and you're town, and you're stressed enough to be helping generate a dozen pages of content in like eight hours from one vote, take a deep breath and step back. We have time. I'd much rather play with you when you're in a conducive place than have us death spiral tunnel each other for out of game stressors.

In post 5348, penguin_alien wrote:Damn it, I've probably entirely lost people's willingness to listen to me after my botched mastin read, but please hear me out anyways.

This is F-16 scum. I was debating it overnight with Tammy, but him coming in here and going way over the top freaking out when she accused him of being scum is so very evocative of scum-F-16 from Micro 264: Resistance Mafia. I thought he was scummy and he went way overboard on calling me scum. Like, citing ridiculous things, pushing me past all rationality.

Reading through today's posts, I also really hate that he's basically repeating the same events we've already seen. Have a 'meltdown' on a necessarily accelerated timetable, claim that only scum wouldn't react sympathetically. Heaven forbid I accuse anyone of a lack of sincerity, but there's a difference between BRO being under pressure for days and cracking and F-16 being voted by one player who he supposedly didn't read as 100% town anyways and becoming incapable of typing.

Also, LMAO that I'm scum for pushing the mastin lynch. That he spent the whole fucking game pushing. Without voting. I have no words. Not polite ones at any rate. And amused as hell that he thinks I'm scum for being too towny. The contortions there, they amaze.

BRO, I know I don't read you well. That doesn't mean I'm not going to try, especially when my almost certainly town neighbor is requesting that I do so. I realize I misread you in Wicked, but as far as I can tell you're not trying to draw the scum read here, thank heaven, so that part's out. I could be wrong. This could be more of me having trouble thinking badly of people when there's some type of history there or a feeling that they don't think I'm an idiot. But I'm inclined to give you the benefit of the doubt and try not to let paranoia take over. I really really really like that you talked about doing VCA today, given that your VCA in Street Racers hit the overwhelming majority of the scum team. I also think that scum-you would have had your bad period, seen that people were backing off, and taken advantage of that somehow. I can see town-you just washing your hands of the whole thing for a bit. I've told Tammy what I'll be looking for going forward, so we'll see what happens.

Tammy-wise, I can confirm that that's what she claimed to me. I've also now effectively fullclaimed to her, and no, I'm not a Watcher. Clyton made some interesting moves, but unfortunately I'm disinclined to continue deceiving town even for their own good. I will not be claiming in-thread. If Tammy wants to out my role, that's her prerogative.

Other reads so far: magenta coming in and trying to sidetrack the discussion into the adult-child question was bad. Role-wise I don't know how a governor --> cagefight maker works for scum, but the nonchalance pinged.

AP feels oddly detached. The soft push on the claimed vig isn't great, but if he actually wants to work with BRO that might be a decent sign. Street Racers was on and off in his willingness to work with BRO, so I'll be watching how that develops. I didn't have a good sense of him in 172, and he kept trying to steer me there. I don't trust him putting ffery in as a cop choice, and I also have to give some credence to mastin's read on him post-town flip. Waiting to be wowed.

I want to see Nacho do more than play wise mediator for Tammy-CF. I'm particularly interested to see what he does with me (yes, self-centered, deal with it) given how he played me in Wicked. I also can't remember my last game with town-Nacho (NY 164?), but I know that scum-Nacho always takes me a while to find and then I doubt myself horribly (HP: CoS, X-Men)

I remember nothing from RG or F&H. That can change any time, please and thank you.

Current reads:

Town: BWS, Tammy, PV (for claim; I'm assuming we'll get an explanation for the lack of shot timing issue)
Lean town: JSU, Cupcake (pending where he's going with all this capsrage)
Null: RG, F&H
Lean scum: magenta, AP, Nacho
Scum: CF

Y'all apparently wiped out Tammy for the night, and I want to talk to her more about stuff before deciding where to vote.

you've managed to catch up on the game?

Not 100%. I've read the major events, obviously everything since replacing in, and ISO'd Titan, JSU, mastinSSK, and CF pretty closely. Those ISOs add up to...a bit over 2000 posts. In ISOing, when things caught my interest I'd click out to read a page or two in context. That plus the last 35 pages, and I've probably read 60-70% of the game? I haven't read front to back, and I probably won't, since there's time for me to interact with people. I'll probably pick and choose other things to read as they become relevant again.

In post 5353, penguin_alien wrote:Your over the top push on Tammy comes from nothing reasonable I can see. And I did what you asked overnight and read through your ISO. Part of what I discussed with Tammy was that I wasn't seeing strong town-you in it, so while I can maybe see that my read on you comes out of thin air, rest assured that it's been building for the last couple of days.

I remember your tragic penguin pics (my soul hasn't recovered, TYVM) but even there you had an agenda with being OTT, like you did in Resistance. Trouble is I don't see the town agenda here for flipping out on Tammy. I'd say it's emotional, except let's face it, neither of your past OTT responses have been anything other than strategic, either trying to paint me as scum or figure out if I'm scum.

Although interesting that you posit that you wouldn't have changed aspects of your game post-Wicked whereas I would have.

On a side note, seriously, I know it's the end of the school year for semester people (yay quarter system) and there are important non-Mafia obligations. This is a game. It's been really intense from what I've read, and I think it feels ramped up with how high emotions have been running. If I'm wrong and you're town, and you're stressed enough to be helping generate a dozen pages of content in like eight hours from one vote, take a deep breath and step back. We have time. I'd much rather play with you when you're in a conducive place than have us death spiral tunnel each other for out of game stressors.

My past OTT responses didn't come at a time when I was behind on finals and being stressfully obsessed with a single game. I used sitechat to ask Cabd last night if we were planning to start the day 12 hours ahead. He said no. Then I asked him again this morning when he was going to start and he said he wasn't feeling well. This game has been in some ways unfun but it still draws me towards it. I'm never drawn to a game this much as scum. Most of the fun of mafia for me is in analysis and puzzle solving and that only happens when town. Anyways, I probably invested myself in this game too much and that's why I reacted that way. I also explained that I was waiting for Nacho and Tammy to come after me if they were scum and all of that combined was why I reacted that way. I didn't have a strategy. I also explained that I was wrong to expect anyone to react sympathetically when I was being rude myself. I wasn't thinking clearly at that time. You are trying to logically beat my posts at a time when I wasn't typing logically at all.

I hope I am wrong and that you are town too. It's what I would like. Clyton's post where he claimed watcher was a trigger that almost confirmed to me that the slot was scum after seeing Mastin flip town. I don't know why he claim it but in light of you saying it was fake, I'll think about it.

Kinda skimmed the last couple of pages, but this made me lol:

In post 5348, penguin_alien wrote:Town: BWS, Tammy, PV (for claim; I'm assuming we'll get an explanation for the lack of shot timing issue)
Lean town: JSU, Cupcake (pending where he's going with all this capsrage)
Null: RG, F&H
Lean scum: magenta, AP, Nacho

Scum: CF

In post 5352, CarbonFiber wrote:Town (Strongest->Weakest):

1 PeregrineV
2 Titan (Tammy + Ser Arthur Dane)
3 Just Sheep Us (Broseidon + Desperado)
4 Cupcake Panda
5 Breakfast With Stalin (Ffery + Beli)

Still to be sorted:

6 Red Gyarados (Brian Skies + notscience)
7 The Fox and the Hound (cephrir + DV)
8 MagentaTheGreat (Orcinus + Mara)
9 Nachomamma8

Scum (Strongest->Weakest):

10 AngryPidgeon

11 Penguin_alien

?

Am I the only one seeing this?

Will read everyone's bullshit later. I promise.

In post 5293, magenta_thegreat wrote:I want everyone to claim child/adult

child/adult

Yeah, you go ahead and think about that until I come back.

And I don't see Notty returning in the foreseeable future. But if he ever decides to come back and talk to me, that would be swell. On another note, I'm still pretty awestruck by the fact I was role-blocked.

Ok, I haven't read up yet, but this game, in addition to lots of games before it, has made me realise that I really just have not been putting the effort into games (especially town ones) that I should be for a long time now, partly out of lack of time, but if I'm going to be honest with myself it's mostly laziness. Our vote on Mastin was 100% my doing despite Cephrir being uncertain, and I hadn't even read half of her posts.

I want to completely change how I do things, and while it's probably going to take me a few games before I find my groove, my plan here is to go through every alive player's ISO completely and post my thoughts (these being actual thoughts and not lazy one/two-liners). I'm not going to skip someone because I assume I'll just read them as town and I'm not going to skip posts if I think they're too long and can't be bothered.

Ok, now as much as it will probably sound like I'm not serious about this (indeed, I have probably said similar things knowing full well that no one would take it seriously before), I actually really really want people to call me out if it looks like I'm being my usual lazy self. Seriously, be cruel, be vicious, be absolutely vile, let loose those cutting insults that I know you're all dying to use! I don't care if you're town (you don't need to pretend to be nice, this is mafia and it's following your win condition to rip into me!) or scum (free townpoints for the best insult!). If it makes you feel any better I'm sort of masochistic so just imagine I'm getting off on it or something.

I realise this sounds like some sick joke or something, or that DV has completely lost his marbles in another game despite not being voted for, but I know that I'm going to come up with all sorts of excuses to put minimal effort into the game while using reads lists to pretend that I'm actually trying. If I say that I've become really busy at the hospital and just don't have time to follow through on my grand plans, tell me that I'm a hopeless loser with no integrity, because in actuality I'm probably just binge-reading harry potter. If I say that I have personal issues, then tell me that I deserve it if I'm going to sign up for a game and make promises without actually trying in it. If I say that I don't care anymore, then just call me a fucking faggot or something, I don't know? While I would probably be really tempted to start coming up with actual not-lame insults for myself it would be defying the point of this whole post and hey, I don't want to steal all the good ones.

I know this is extreme, but I've tried telling myself to just put more effort in (because I enjoy games so much more when I do!) and stop being lazy, but it hasn't been happening and setting this up (perhaps if I'm really lucky just this post will be enough to do it) is a feasible way I can see this working for me, and honestly I think it's the only one. I'm weird, I'm probably a complete nutcase, but I'm being totally serious.

So let's see how it goes!

Plan for tonight:

-Read up on Day 3
-Do ISOs and post thoughts as I go along.

It will take much more than tonight to get through ISOs properly but this is my only mafia game right now and it's going to happen!!!

And this is pretty obviously DV.

Uhhh, so yeah...

[Out-of-game Edit]I think you're all wonderful people and if I'm being disrespectful at all or insensitive please tell me so[/out of game edit]

Here we go!!!

CF, We're Symphonia and I would love a neighbourhood. Not sure about Ceph, but I don't see why he wouldn't be up for it and mentioned to me that he was surprised we weren't in one yet (I think he expected that we'd be in one starting from Day 2). Obviously if there's a different game that makes more sense to neighbourize then that's totally fine though.

If you haven't elsewhere, please explain your reaction to Tammy. I think it's over-the-top given what little indication of her thoughts she posted and I would probably assume it was a fake attempt at getting her to townread you if I didn't think you were town otherwise. I obviously don't mean to belittle your reaction if it was real, but it's really odd if I consider it without my pre-existing thoughts of your slot.

In post 5124, CarbonFiber wrote:I deserve what's coming to me though

What's coming to you? If it's pressure/wagon/lynch you're talking about then you can't actually believe that, because you're assuming Tammy is scum for voting you, and a whole bunch of other people were wrong about Mastin (including me!).

Nacho/JSU, what was CF's reaction when he started saying Tammy was scum in the neighbourhood? Was he emotional at all, etc?

In post 5166, Nachomamma8 wrote:

In post 5162, Titan wrote:

In post 5125, CarbonFiber wrote:I KNEW YOU WERE SCUM AND I WAS TELLING EVERYONE IN THGE NEUIGHTBORHOOS ABOYUT UT

I told Nacho he was scum with yo.

You're right to read Tammy card is in the shredder.

So is your right to read F-16 card.

You seemed pretty confident in Mastin-scum, and although I'm not saying that as an attack and I was obviously wrong too, I'm not confidently telling other people they're wrong about my townreads (in fact I'm feeling quite the opposite). So what I want to know is why are you when you were really quite wrong yesterday?

Oh also while we're here. You said earlier that I'm not an emotional player, but I know you've seen me crack. And even though I often keep up all kinds of facades, I'm pretty sure I'm quite emotional underneath all that, so what was up with that?

Oh also, I wasn't actually sure what Magenta was referring to there, so was wondering how you were?

In post 5169, Nachomamma8 wrote:TAMMY: In the neighborhood last night, it was Desperado who was paranoid of you. F-16 had doubts in small bursts, but reread to reassure himself. That doesn't seem like he's "posturing against you", and I have no idea why he would posture against you in the first place as scum.

So did he actually think Tammy was scum or not?

In post 5172, Nachomamma8 wrote:

In post 5167, Breakfast With Sandy wrote:Nacho, you got some reads?

Nope. I'm approaching today much more cautiously.

Not with F-16 and Tammy apparently?

In post 5192, AngryPidgeon wrote:Does Tammy not know you?

What is the point of this question? I mean, I don't think what he meant is all that unclear, but seriously how do you expect him to respond to this?

In post 5193, Nachomamma8 wrote:Logically, why would F-16 fake this? Why do you think he's faking this?

An answer along the lines of: 'He was legitimately worried he'd be lynched after Tammy's post and thought that freaking out would look really town', doesn't seem all that unlikely to me. I still think he's town and I'm not pushing anyone until I read ALL their posts, but the reaction alone is actually pretty scummy imo, as I've said before.

In post 5213, CarbonFiber wrote:

In post 5212, Nachomamma8 wrote:Aka I'm pretty sure F-16 is half me, half you.

WHAT?

Why is this such a shock?

In post 5232, AngryPidgeon wrote:I told you all about mastin.

Is this serious, or some attempt at irony/sarcasm that I don't understand?

In post 5240, Just Sheep Us wrote:I feel like town-you should have gotten my point, or that I was gunning at something a bit more complex, especially given the conversation we had about Mina and Mala in Wicked re: their early read on Hanzo and how that informed my reads on them.

I feel like this is a ridiculous way of implying that someone is not town. I just don't get how this matters whatsoever?

In post 5246, Just Sheep Us wrote:I feel like they've positionally benefited from the noise that's happened this whole game (interesting that, since the day start, I'm the only one to even bring up Ceph/DV).

I don't understand how any of this is relevant to our alignment either, but again with the trying to make it sound like a scumtell! How does one get from positional benefit to scum?

In post 5256, Just Sheep Us wrote:

In post 5249, Titan wrote:This is such fucking bullshit.

I should take a picture of that early day-1 positions map I drew. It had a nice little support arrow of DV/Ceph up your ass the way RBD was up mastin's.

Oh so we're mislynches too! Good to know!

Seriously, what does that have to do with anything?

In post 5257, AngryPidgeon wrote:Ya, I think my read on them is from D1 and fairly stale. I sort of realized this at some point yesterday and asked them if they were coasting and one of those clowns said something that made me . So they are priority to sort for me.

I'm pretty sure you reviewed your read on us not-so-early Day 2, so should I believe this?

In post 5261, Just Sheep Us wrote:VOTE: Fox and Hound

This is probably a better place for a vote, for the same reason RBD was a better vote than mastin day 1 in my book.

So, you're justifying your vote with reasoning that you used previously this game, which (gasp) was not that great, and it so happens that the reasoning leads to the slot out of Tammy/Fox that was probably the easier lynch! HMMMMMMM (Good luck with that now!)

In post 5262, Titan wrote:IF PENGUIN IS TOWN SCUM CAN READ OUR NEIGHBORHOOD!

Is there anything you can share as to why you think this?

In post 5263, CarbonFiber wrote:I posted a long ass wall explaining to you why BRO and Desp were town. You ignored it completely and continuous pushed them even though their alignment is obvious as fuck to anyone with two brain cells.

So, you're allowed to call Tammy your strongest townread or whatever and go back on it, but no one can dare disagree with any of your other townreads? I don't think so!

Seriously, it's like everyone has suddenly been recruited into some cult except me and Tammy and has forgotten how to act town.

In post 5263, CarbonFiber wrote:You "lean town" on Penguin which is absolute bullshit. Penguin has been scum, scum, scum. I analyzed her posts in the neihghborhood. Her push on Mastin was fake. Her role is not fucking town. There is not a bodyguard, bulletproof, commuter, and watcher in the same game. Her role if fake. Her push is fake. Her interactions with me fit scum-Penguin to a T.

Again, how is anyone that thought Mastin/RBD scum confident enough to use their scumreads as a basis for reading other people??? Even it wasn't for me thinking everyone was scum at the moment, there's no way I'm going to be confident in a scumread after that. Sure, I might pretend to be so that chances of people sheeping me rises from 0% to 2%, but actually having it influence a read either means you're insanely arrogant (posts today such as addressed to Nati/Muffin indicate otherwise) or it's a fake reason to suspect someone! So, what gives?

In post 5273, AngryPidgeon wrote:And CF pushing you looks rather OMGUSy at the core, regardless of his alignment.

What does this have anything to do with anything at all ever in a mafia game????

In post 5303, CarbonFiber wrote:Tammy as scum doesn't make any sense whatsoever.

Why now and not earlier?

In post 5317, CarbonFiber wrote:Okay. I didn't read this post earlier but it makes more sense to vote me once I questioned you about it.

Why didn't you read it?

In post 5324, Titan wrote:Arthur had DV/Ceph as scum on day one due to his buddying of me. They're someone I wanted to reread as day one when I started to think that rancid and mastin were town, I thought that scum were town reading me. DV usually scum reads me when he's scum or throws up fake paranoia, but they seem a little too sure that I'm town.

Before today I was almost as sure as I'm ever going to get in you as a townread. I'm keen to reconsider everything today (and you're coming under that too), but even now I feel that I can understand where you're coming from while everyone is else is making me ???. I won't say I'm not considering at all that you're scum, because lolparanoia, but games are more fun when you can trust/pretend to trust people (and buddy them!!).

CF, given your explanation of the neighbourhood, why did you claim to have been calling Titan scum there, when that isn't really an accurate explanation of what happened?

That's it with my read-through. I've probably already broken my plans since I'm not going through ISOs tonight, but I feel pretty good about what I've achieved and actually feel quite motivated to do ISOs and genuinely think I would if I didn't really need to sleep now.

Also some of the questions may have gotten really outdated or already answered so ignore them if so.

(but this doesn't give you an excuse if the above doesn't apply!!!)

DV that's a pretty disappointing catch-up

- What did you think about magenta's suggestion for a partial flavor claim?

- What did you think about two players reporting being blocked?

This whole Day feels like I'm playing Mafia in Bizzaro Universe. On hallucinogenic drugs.

-Beli

Breakfast, what are your updated reads? Who do you think are the four most likely players to be scum?

In post 5364, CarbonFiber wrote:Breakfast, what are your updated reads? Who do you think are the four most likely players to be scum?

How do you feel about AP's day 3 posts?

What do you think about magenta's flavor claim suggestion?

I'll post a reads list later today.

CF did GiFPie role claim in the neighborhood?

No, they didn't role claim.

I don't have much of an opinion on AP's D3 posts, they are mostly null. Some of his questions are inquisitive sounding which could come from town or good scum. Nothing overwhelmingly alignment indicative. I haven't really played a lot with him before or read a lot of his games.

Talk to me about Penguin though. I have much stronger opinions there.

My read faded a little overnight.

On the not-scum side, there was little reason to take such a blazing stance on Mastin yesterday to push that lynch through. On the scum-side I think she knows what leads to my townreading her now that we've played a few games, and I think other players may look for similar markers. You're right that some of those markers were done in spades on day 2.

I'm not sure how I'll go about firming that read up today.

Did you follow NY 172?

I was worried about the same thing i.e. if she was trying to hit her town markers. I do think that Mastin underestimates her abilities vastly often pegging her as an easy mislynch or as she says a "pawn" in Mastin's grandiose plans of scum victories in the scum QTs. I think Penguin would like nothing more than to teach Mastin a lesson for that and powering through a lynch on Mastin when Mastin was under pressure and about to get lynched fits in perfectly. I think we probably look for similar markers although I'm not sure. I sort of skimmed NY172, I didn't really read in depth.

Although I don't get why she'd go after me because my approach to her when scum is completely different and we both mutually respect each other's playstyles except a) opportunism and b) I pushed her first and she thought it was optimal to push back. But telling me to step back felt townish.

Can you see her push coming from a town mindset?

I think Im finally starting to take pity on all the people who post way less than me in games.

In post 5303, CarbonFiber wrote:Ugh, just got back. Tammy as scum doesn't make any sense whatsoever. I'm going to respond to all of those posts in a bit.

Hello FourTrouble, haven't heard from you in ages!!

In post 5305, Titan wrote:I just don't understand how you can't see how Mastin was going to be the lynch. There was going to be nothing but two more days worth of the same thing. Noone was changing their minds.

Stalin was sort of waffling about it, tbf. The main thing I don't get is that CF himself was pushing the mastin lynch but now posting things about it being a setup.

In post 5305, Titan wrote:Quite frankly when you unvoted Mastin at the end of the day, it looked suspicious to me after Mastin flipped town. I thought you were trying to demonstrate fake uncertainty on the lynch you'd been pushing the entire time and that you decided that actually the noise would be more beneficial to have around than lose.

He voted mastin at some point?

In post 5313, CupcakePanda wrote:AP

FULLCLAIM NEXT POST

I already have? Im a modified cop. I submit 3 names every night and the mafia team selects one for me to get either Replica or Not Replica on. I was allowed to target Kagura on N1 and got no result which was weird. I got Not Replica back on BWS last night. Im in Tales of Hearts. Calcedny Arcome, Town Lawful Commander. I think I claimed all that before but its possible I havent.

In post 5323, magenta_thegreat wrote:Assuming scum roles only work on one of kids/adults, the fact that they have fail/success during the past two nights would lead them to the conclusion of what age group their target belongs in. If each scum targeted different people (which is very likely) the past two nights, they would have age groups of 8 people (2X4=8) while townspeople with same limitation only have the age groups of those they targeted.

This is not making any sense to me.

Why would scum roles only work on one of adults/kids? And why not mention beasts? Annnd, you are using this as a justification for a massclaim of flavor. Why do you even care?

In post 5329, magenta_thegreat wrote:thoughts on ffery/beli and Brian/ns? I think the latter has a chance of being scum

Confirmed town and plausible scum respectively.

In post 5333, CarbonFiber wrote:2) I have AP as a clear scumread. For whatever reason, it became more clearer after Mastin and Rancid flipping town.

In post 5335, Titan wrote:Why was he, at the same time that he was so damn convinced that Mastin was scum that he wouldn't do anything else, also saying I was setting him up in the case of a town flip. Like I never said anything of the sort.

Hm. Im trying to remember, but I think he did something similar in my mini theme. But its possible Im just remembering BRO's part in that, but I think Desperado also tunneled on the mastin mislynch there as town. What worries me is that these guys were so gung-ho about it again despite just having mislynched mastin horribly in a very similar fashion.