Mini 525 "Masons & Mafia"! (Over)


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Post Post #650 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:35 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

Mr. Flay, if I'm scum, I know who the last townie is. There is no ambiguity.
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Post Post #651 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:46 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

I'm counting on that, actually, but I'm hedging my bets... :D
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Post Post #652 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 9:56 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

lol. Well in that case...

Mod: If possible, I'd like to pre-vote: Mr. Flay for AFTER tyhess is lynched. In no way shoudl this be seen as me removing my vote from tyhess.
Vote: Tyhess
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Post Post #653 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 4:48 pm

Post by distad »

Bah.

Good thing I read the 3+ pages (finding out that I was killed) before posting! :)
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Post Post #654 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:20 pm

Post by PookyTheMagicalBear »

Tyhess, Mafia has been lynched

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Post Post #655 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:42 pm

Post by ooba »

Whooo !!

WW,Distad(Etoceles),Mr.Flay(Archaist) and Myself were the masons
mathcam wrote:Sigh -- I think this is an unfortunately valid point. I've been thinking a lot about this, and the more I do, the more I realize that there's an unfortunate symmetry to the game -- the more of an argument I can come up with in my defense, there's almost always the exact same counter-argument saying I'm scum. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think my continued existence is just harming the town. No one's going to get off my bandwagon any time soon, and given what I know, it will be nigh on impossible to lynch anyone else without revealing a lot of extra information. Despite all the taboo against it, I think it's in the town's best interests for me to finish this puppy off with a Vote: mathcam.

Believe it or not (you'll have to as soon as Pooky posts), I was a mason. I told Waldo to make a believable attack on me, and I guess he did. He didn't tell us he was Mikeburnfire -- that explains a lot in hindsight. My personal guess is that he figured he had it all under control and was about to pointedly back off my wagon when he went and got himself killed. Anyway, I shouldn't give away any more -- we can talk more about it after the game.
First off I'm sorry about hammering here - it was a lousy move and probably shifted the scales towards the scum ..

Second off , The game from the beginning was skewed towards the Mafia since we were in LyTLo from day 1.
Did you guys have a code or something made up?
Did you realize that we were in LyTLo until i made it clear in my post?
Plus Miztef,why did you make a wasted kill when you could have waited for TSPN's lynch and then killed while posting results in thread?
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Post Post #656 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 5:44 pm

Post by ooba »

EBWOP : LyTLo from Day 3 rather.
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Post Post #657 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:14 pm

Post by Miztef »

Actually, I was so confident we were going to win, I basically just did absolutely everything I could to win as fast as possible.

From my perspective, it was flawless victory the millisecond I read SPN's townie claim. We did have a secret code, which both myself and albert used. Albert tried to daykill Mathcam based on his code, and obv failed. So, I was aware of Mathcam's alignment pretty much from the moment after albert died.

I said my kill list 2 posts before my death, and if Yos2 had found it, we would have definately won (as he would have known that MoS is town based on my kill list), then Yos voted TSN, So I hammered knowing I would die shortly anyway. In retrospect, I should have just openly posted my kill list in my hammer post. That would have fully clinched the deal.

In addition to tyhess not being here when we could have come, and the things mentioned before, everything basically went as badly as humanly possible for us after TSN claimed. There was so much rush and mistakes made, I basically feel we won anyway (in a small sense, at least). It just, doesn't seem possible that we lost. In good sportsmanship though, congratulations on pulling through, it's really a miracle.

I loved how much of the game went up to that point though, the town was in such shambles most of the game, I was very happy with how everything went. None of us, save tyhess maybe, were really at risk of lynch too often, and mine and Yos's horribly mean tactic to attack tyhess paid off game wise at least, and split any connection believed between us.
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Post Post #658 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:25 pm

Post by mathcam »

Sweet.
ooba wrote: First off I'm sorry about hammering here - it was a lousy move and probably shifted the scales towards the scum ..
Forgiven. I took a gamble and had high hopes that I could catch an eager scum off guard -- just got frustrated that my plan got so abruptly washed down the toilet.

I thought the flaw inherent in the game (perhaps unforseeable, so certainly no offense to Pooky, who ran an excellent game) is that it's against almost everyone's interest to speak. It's really tough to have discussion on anyone without revealing whether or not they're your co-mason. With no night phases to give a break from the monotony, this gave a strong predilection towards stagnancy.

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Post Post #659 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 6:52 pm

Post by mathcam »

Miztef wrote: Albert tried to daykill Mathcam based on his code, and obv failed. So, I was aware of Mathcam's alignment pretty much from the moment after albert died.
Speaking of which, I was rather proud of the fact that I got targeted. I wrote the following PM to Pooky
mathcam, in a PM to Pooky, wrote:There it is -- my first attempt at appearing just slightly as a mason. I think it would be easy to overdo it, so I just want enough of a tilt so that if the mafia comes to a point where they figure they might as well kill someone before they go out, they choose me.
right after this post:
mathcam wrote: One more comment to emphasize is that you can try to make your accusations completely objectively -- that is, if you happened to be a mason, you could analyze scumtells while trying to completely forget about who your co-masons were. I tried to make it clear that my argument and vote against Nightfall came from an objective viewpoint.
and Albert got himself killed in only a few hours later. Maybe I've totally misread what I said that motivated Albert's kill attempt, but my hope was that it was the "if you happened to be a mason" line, sort of implying that I was a mason by suggesting that the was only he could be a mason was a pure hypothetical.

On the other hand, kudos to the rest of the mafia -- I was completely baffled as to who the mafia were when I went out. I had Ooba and Miztef as my most likely mafia, with Archaist my best guess for rounding out the group. The thing that threw me off the most in the whole game was MoS -- in his first post, he inadvertently but blatantly screamed that he was a townie. I guess he then tried to over-compensate by latching on to Tyhess (whom I presume MoS evaluated to be pretty pro-town?), which I took as an almost definitive statement that he and Tyhess were masons or mafia together, and I eventually settled on masons. Of course, the fact that he ended up buddying up with scum meant that the mafia probably knew for almost certain that he was a townie, which when combined with their knowledge that I was a townie, probably made their game a lot easier.

Thanks for the game again, Pooky -- I've never had to spend so much time thinking and re-writing before every single post in a game. I'm sure you had your laughs watching us flail -- any particularly amusing insights?

Cam

p.s. Mafia, any chance you want to share the code? I'm curious.
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Post Post #660 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:36 pm

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

Here's the notes I made on the game after Mathcam died. I'm glad I was able to fool two scum into trying to nightkill me with me post calling them out as scum. Did you guys think I had slipped about being a mason? That's what I was going for here (I bolded the part that was supposed to be a "slip":
Mastermind of Sin wrote:What? Since when have I been bickering with TSPN? The only person I've had any real direct exchanges with in this game were mathcam and Yos2. TSPN is not on that list, so there's no way I could be "bickering" with him. His vote on Ooba WAS "retarded", there is nothing "bickering" about it. I don't have any personal problem with TSPN. I explained fairly well why TSPN's actions were not well thought-out.

I love how you throw in some extra posts that don't really have any connection to TSPN except coincidentally, as if they meant something towards a connection with him. You're really stretching to make a case here. Sensing your chance to get on that wagon? I think so.

Regardless, though, Miztef's post combined with Mr. Flay's "result" has convinced me that TSPN is the odd one out of my group of four. It's ironic that Miztef says Yos2 hasn't done much to get his attention lately, when Yos2 has pretty much been lying low and just talking game theory for the last two weeks...
It would be easier if I could list out my entire thought process, but we're so close to lynching TSPN that I need to make a few things clear. I have mapped out a fairly good representation of who has which non-scum roles, the results leave the three of them as scum. A scan through their posts and a few select others makes a pretty good case in itself.
But unlike Mr. Flay, I don't need to post some gigantic table as if it's going to make my case for me (you didn't actually ever make a case there, but we'll skip over that as if it didn't happen ;) ).

The tyhess wagon screamed easy target all over it, and I'm glad that we didn't go through with it. The scum were happy to go after the guy that made a rookie mistake in agreeing with other people and not making a completely separate case on his own so that he couldn't be connected to them. Seriously, is that all you guys got? He "followed" mathcam and then thought he was scum? It's a horrible case, it was then and it is now. And Yos2 was very supportive of it, as was Miztef. Mr. Flay, on the other hand, has spent every single one of his posts talking about myself or TSPN. He has not even bothered to
mention
anyone else in the game, except when paraphrasing mine and TSPN's posts in his giant table. He has done no analysis of other players, pulling a tunnel-vision act on us with an incredibly weak case that was debunked pretty much as soon as he posted it. It's unlike Flay to present such weak cases and fail to comment on other players. Protown Flay is very thorough. I believe scum Flay wished to focus attention on myself and TSPN so that he could get one of us lynched and avoid having to comment on his scumpartners.

If you needed anymore proof that TSPN is protown, just think about the fact that Mr. Flay and Miztef both support his lynch, and Yos2 has been arguing with him for a while, although he's avoided actually making any statements of analysis lately.

So let's vote Mr. Flay and get us a scum. This is a pretty easy read, guys. I don't want this to be another Cassandra game for me.
I was trying to make it look like I was a mason who was desparately trying to save townie TSPN who he believed was protown, without giving away that I was a mason.

Anyway here are the quick notes I had that led to the above post:

Yos2 NOT a mason
Mr. Flay probably not a mason
Tyhess NOT a mason
Waldo thought Yos2's partner was Miztef
ooba IS A MASON - I'd be willing to lynch Archaist(Flay)/TSPN; 2 of TSPN, Yos2, miztef, and distad are scum; MoS/TSPN are scum; pointed out LYLO
distad(eteocles) - does not mention Ooba most of the time; TSPN has a bad vote on Ooba; wants to lynch TSPN;
tspn(unright) - townie or scum
Miztef - Yos2's partner

I feel satisfied in my play that I got 2/3 right in both the masons AND the scum. I actually had tyhess listed as a townie until TSPN's stuff, but I never looked back to realize that I had already marked him as not being a mason. Otherwise I would've been 3/3. I was thrown off by the fact that Mr. Flay came into the game and seemed to completely tunnel-vision on me. Then, after a while (and seemingly because no one bought enough on my wagon), he threw TSPN into the mix as well, but completely ignored all other players. I just couldn't look past that. I feel sorry about the mathcam lynch, because as soon as he claimed mason I realized we should've been lynching Yos2 instead, who was essentially obvscum at that point. I don't understand why I could not get him lynched, considering how hard he had buddied up to mathcam and followed him around. Freakin' Cassandra...>_<

Good job to Ooba and distad for playing a good game as masons. You guys had a few tells that gave you away, but I get the impression that none of the mafia spent a lot of time scouring the thread for mason tells. It wasn't until I really looked through people's posts individually for connections that I realized you two were masons together.

Out of curiousity, who killed Waldo? I'm guessing it was Miztef, but I might be wrong there. He did kinda give himself away with that post. At least, I'm assuming you killed him for that post. After he died, it only took about 5 min to find a post that could be seen as a major slip if you were looking.
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Post Post #661 (ISO) » Thu Feb 28, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by TheSweatpantsNinja »

Whew. Victory snatched from the jaws of defeat. I'm not sure if claiming was the right move, but I was pretty sure I was getting lynched anyway, and at least that made it completely obvious that whoever hammered me was scum, and force them to hurry. That part worked. I was also holding out some hope that I wouldn't be believed by the scum. Clearly that part didn't.

And I should have stuck with my first instincts on yosarian.

Oh well. We won a game without ever lynching scum. That's pretty sweet.
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Post Post #662 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:28 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Oi, what a nerve-wracking endgame. This setup is full of paradoxes, but might be worth another go. Thank you for running it, Pooks...

I'm amazed that MoS didn't pick up on ooba and I being Masons together, when I refused to go after him for hammering mathcam. I shouldn't have been that blatant about that, but I replaced into the game without full awareness of HOW dangerous it would be to out myself as a Mason, so then I had to backtrack. I did honestly believe that either TSN or MoS was a Mafioso, though...
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Post Post #663 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:35 am

Post by Miztef »

I did kill waldo, However, I was actually very inclined to kill MoS and Waldo at the same time there. I thought I saw a huge connection between them, so I thought I could jump on them both and give us a huge advantage.

I thought about it really hard, and realized that with MoS's experience, it was not worth the risk to kill him at that time, I thought it likely he could make himself look as mason-like or town-like as he wishes. So, I killed waldo alone, the slip was too much, and overall the game was going so slowly I thought I'd spark it back up and give us more of an edge.

I am stunned and amazed at your notes MoS, I sure didn't have the game that sorted out at all, my only real goal was driving suspicion around to others and keeping it off me (I tried to care as little as possible for my scumbuddies, but instead came out attacking tyhess and protecting yos2 when he also attacked tyhess, my reasoning being that I could keep attention away from at least 1 of us no matter what. Great job at evaluating the game MoS.

@TSN: You lynched tyhess (the town at least did).

Overall though, I would hate to be pro-town in this set-up, you were at such a disadvantage most of the game imo. If we didn't make the 123151413 mistakes we did in the last 3 pages, we could have won like 10 times over, which clearly isn't fair.
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Post Post #664 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:44 am

Post by Miztef »

oh yeah, the code, it's fricking complicated, but I'll post the code I was using:

-disclaimer: We actually went though 2 codes, 1 made by Albert, 1 made by myself (mine was heavily inspired by his). I used mine twice it the game (once for waldo, once for Distad, MoS, Ooba), Albert I believe used his.


In this message to all my scumbuddies, I quoted Albert's code, and then told my own:
Miztef wrote:
Albert B. Rampage wrote:
tyhess wrote:I think another thing we may want to consider is having a list of the order we send in kills (assuming we don't have any suspsisions). That way if one of us is about to be lynched, we can know who they tried to kill (which I don't think we would know if we didn't have a list)....that way if one of us dies, we can know almost for certain who killed them (resulting in finding out a town). This also eliminates the possibility of 2 of us dieing to the same town.
Excellent idea. We want to know who's vanilla townie without the town knowing who's vanilla townie. If we are about to die, we post a long analysis on every player, or something of the sort, and we kill them in the order that their key words appear.

The code will work as follows: starting from the end of a post, we use the first letter of each sentence as the first letter of a person's name. We can punctuate that this is indeed the "killer list" by faking a thought with "hmm" in the post. This is the player list:

ooba
tyhess
mathcam
Yosarian2
Nightfall
Eteocles
Unright
Archaist
WaterboyWaldo
Miztef
Mastermind of Sin

For mathcam we will use the letter "m", and for MoS, we will use the word "Well" to start off our sentence. Eg:

"As I thought, Yosarian is acting just the way I thought he would. Maybe if we lynched Eteo yesterday, we wouldn't have to WIFOM about Yos' identity. Well, I guess that's just part of the game though...hmm. Only if this game would be moving at a faster rate..."

The kills would be, in order, Ooba, Mastermind of Sin, Mathcam, Archaist.


In addition, we could pull off side gambits to throw the town off....for example we could mispell the name of the first person we kill, and then mispell the name of one of us in the same post, in the last post before we send the mod our kills(and possibly die which might lead to our last posts being analyzed). Eg:

"Unrighy is cool but what he said about Albert C. Rampage that sounded off...maybe yosarian could help with determining miztef's alignment..."

or we use upper lower case. Eg:

eteo is fine in my book since the arguments brought against him made no sense, especially those by Water and albert.

This way we semi-clear one of us if the town tries to decode the killer, assuming he hit the right target the first time, and 'Unrighy' 'eteo' were masons. This won't matter much if we die from the first guy though...and we always have the first code to identify who has already had an attempt on his life. Let the town figure it out on their own, though. Sprinkle some WIFOM in their face.
Great idea! Although, we can simplify it a bit. Let's break it down to the basic information we need to give:

-A way of informing the other mafia that the post has a kill list.
- a list of 4 names (pointless to do more, as we win if 4 people are killed)

So, basically we need a group of words that are normal to say, but not too common. When any word in that group is said, we know the list is coming up in that post. For example, the group of words could be:

Tempted, Heavily, Unfortunately, Unlikely.

When any of these words are mentioned in the first sentence, we know it's a kill list.


To name the list of kills, Rampage's system of 1st letters is great, just make it less limited by making it anywhere in the "kill list post" designated by a comma. Right after a comma you put a key word, for example:

(kill list is WaterboyWaldo, Eteocles, Unright, Archaist)

I am tempted to just lynch MoS, whatever the reason. His tatics have been brutal all day, even when it looks fine... However, underneath all his actions have been hints of scummy behavior. In concludsion, anyone could have been lynched, but MoS pushed for a civilian and is obviously scum.

Notice the lettering? For MoS, we can just do Ma, anything else that starts with M would be mathcam.

Only the first 4 count, notice how I struck out the b. You can ramble with commas as much as you want after that.
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Post Post #665 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:46 am

Post by Miztef »

Just realized now that I ignored the MoS being ma part of my own plan, well, it was so long ago, I am not that shocked.
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Post Post #666 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:06 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

None of the Mafia got replaced, right? That would have sucked, to try to catch into a game with no idea what the code/strategy was by your scumbuddies...

I generally agree with Miztef that this was Mafia's game to lose.
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Post Post #667 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:31 am

Post by mathcam »

Nice code -- I'm not sure I could have avoided inadvertently saying "unfortunately" or "unlikely" in every other post, though.

So I assume you had to make the post right before submitting the kill? Otherwise there'd be risk that two mafia would simultaneously target the same townie, right?

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Post Post #668 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:46 am

Post by Miztef »

ya, the code didn't really work out much for us, but even so, we had a massive advantage overall I think.
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Post Post #669 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:01 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

Mr. Flay wrote:Oi, what a nerve-wracking endgame. This setup is full of paradoxes, but might be worth another go. Thank you for running it, Pooks...

I'm amazed that MoS didn't pick up on ooba and I being Masons together, when I refused to go after him for hammering mathcam. I shouldn't have been that blatant about that, but I replaced into the game without full awareness of HOW dangerous it would be to out myself as a Mason, so then I had to backtrack. I did honestly believe that either TSN or MoS was a Mafioso, though...
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I think you're imagining doing something that you never actually did, Mr. Flay. If you look at your posts this game, you never even mentioned Ooba, directly or indirectly. It's not that you refused to vote him for hammering Mathcam, but that you refused to comment on the issue at all, including any other issues that did not involve me or TSPN. By your logic, I should've also concluded that you were scum with Yos2 for refusing to vote him while he was obvscum in my book, since you never mentioned that, either.
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Post Post #670 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:19 am

Post by distad »

Well, I feel better that I nailed Yos, but that doesn't help with my vote for TSPN.

Also, I started an attack after the ooba lynch, but suddenly shifted gears elsewhere. I'm rather glad that none of the scum picked up on that, because it was a BAD tell.

I didn't post much for two reasons: I had a lot of crap going on outside of the game, but mostly because I didn't know how to step in between MOS and Yos during much of that. I was sticking around and reading. I just didn't have much to add while keeping my role to myself.
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Post Post #671 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 6:47 am

Post by Mastermind of Sin »

Miztef wrote:I did kill waldo, However, I was actually very inclined to kill MoS and Waldo at the same time there. I thought I saw a huge connection between them, so I thought I could jump on them both and give us a huge advantage.

I thought about it really hard, and realized that with MoS's experience, it was not worth the risk to kill him at that time, I thought it likely he could make himself look as mason-like or town-like as he wishes. So, I killed waldo alone, the slip was too much, and overall the game was going so slowly I thought I'd spark it back up and give us more of an edge.
Yea, that would've gone badly for you guys...=P
I am stunned and amazed at your notes MoS, I sure didn't have the game that sorted out at all, my only real goal was driving suspicion around to others and keeping it off me (I tried to care as little as possible for my scumbuddies, but instead came out attacking tyhess and protecting yos2 when he also attacked tyhess, my reasoning being that I could keep attention away from at least 1 of us no matter what. Great job at evaluating the game MoS.
Well, I figured that either there were no tells to be found, or the mafia just hadn't tried to go searching for masons yet. So the only way I could get a leg up on the mafia would be to figure out who the masons were. If I could figure out who the masons were, it would give me a very reduced list of mafia to go after. Waldo really helped a lot, because his attacks on you and Yos2 seemed sincere and convinced me neither of you were masons.
@TSN: You lynched tyhess (the town at least did).

Overall though, I would hate to be pro-town in this set-up, you were at such a disadvantage most of the game imo. If we didn't make the 123151413 mistakes we did in the last 3 pages, we could have won like 10 times over, which clearly isn't fair.
I would've loved to be a mason in this setup.
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Post Post #672 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:39 am

Post by Mr. Flay »

Mastermind of Sin wrote:I think you're imagining doing something that you never actually did, Mr. Flay. If you look at your posts this game, you never even mentioned Ooba, directly or indirectly. It's not that you refused to vote him for hammering Mathcam, but that you refused to comment on the issue at all, including any other issues that did not involve me or TSPN.
Correct. At the time I replaced in, the hot-button issue of the game seemed to be ooba's hammer of mathcam. The two ways to read that were either that ooba was a Mason hammering a liar (true, but obviously unworthy of being commented on by anyone pro-town) or that ooba was a Mafia going for a Mason-kill. I didn't comment at all because I couldn't figure out how to do so without giving away my knowledge that he was actually pro-town. So I jumped to the Yos/MoS debate instead and never looked back...

Ironically, it looks like Mafia should have been hunting Townies to lynch in this game, not Masons to daykill.
I would've loved to be a mason in this setup.
I actually thought TDP must be a Mafioso in this game when I replaced in, so I was planning on finding a Mason and killing them quickly, or getting myself killed
a la
ABR quickly. Either way, it'd have been a low-impact replacement job... oops. :oops:
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Post Post #673 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:57 am

Post by Miztef »

just to clear it up, I was looking for both masons and townies at different times, anything to see the differences would have been nice. My main goal was confusing the town and keep myself distanced from other scum, although I switched tatics with Yos2 hoping slightly for a mason connection to be drawn between us, but mostly to protect him.
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Post Post #674 (ISO) » Fri Feb 29, 2008 10:40 am

Post by Yosarian2 »

Bah. You breadcrumbed your target, Miztef? I was looking for the "ummm..." signal that you were going to breadcrumb who you were targeting, like Albert did...I thought that was what we had agreed on.

And it's frustrating tyhess wasn't around for those few key days...I shouldn't have been so impulsive, I guess, I just didn't think it was likely the town would manage to get a lynch together before he checked the thread. Oh well.

Good game. Except for not being around at the end there, tyhess did a really good job; I'm sure he got caught by surprise by how hard I went after him, but he managed to keep it together and not panic. Bah, we should have won this one.
I want us to win just for Yos' inevitable rant alone. -CrashTextDummie
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