Posted: Tue Oct 20, 2009 1:42 pm
That's a good point.
Yeah, sorry 'bout that. I can see now that you drew the same conclusion I did earlier: It's either Kast/Kmd or it's Excedrin with any scumbuddy, including you two. (or just one remaining scum (but I completely disqualify that as a valid theory))Kmd wrote:Which means the bolded. If he's being bussed, he's scum.
Yes. The Penetrators pick up-ability was not listed as an Active ability, so that would not have violated any rule. In fact, it is specifically mentioned in her R.A that she may choose to pick up her target instantly.Excedrin wrote:That said, Rising, could Plum have used her ability to cause people to jump ship on Locke Lamora and then picked him up?
Possibly. I think that was her plan, to gather as many as possible on the same ship as sigma, to get the most out of his ability.Excedrin wrote:Would that explain all 4 deaths without scum needing two kills?
-Was this part of your plan as discussed with Plum?That said, Rising, could Plum have used her ability to cause people to jump ship on Locke Lamora and then picked him up?
How about more focus on definitive scumtells instead of BS?Yea, more focus on behavior and less on finding "mistakes" in flavor would be good.
-Explain.Kast's unvote was scummy,
?Calling for someone's lynch is passive how?his behavior today seems different than his behavior earlier (more passive),
This is false. Seriously reaching and twisting what I said. It is possible that I can block you. The lack of kill is not proof of that.He also says that since there's proof that he can block me based on lack of kill
This part is also not proof, but it is stronger indication that you are lying and is a more accurate portrayal of what I have posted.and that I got flavor from SpyreX when I shouldn't have,
I clearly posted that I find you more likely to be scum. Having reasons to lynch both you and KMD does not mean it is contradictory to vote for one of you.that lynching Kmd4390 first makes sense, then he leaves his vote on me.
How am I most probable?Kast wrote:I am fine with lynching either KMD or Excedrin as I think they are the most probable remaining scum. However, I would prefer lynching the more probable scum of the two, which seems to be Excedrin.
What contradiction exactly? That I received enough flavor to guess that your ability blocks? You're reading too much into your PMs from SpyreX if this is your only reason to prefer my lynch to Kmd4390's.Kast wrote:There were a lot of claims and contradictory (and potentially contradictory) information flying around. I unvoted and revoted several times in response to new information and/or to give myself time to process that information.
This only makes sense if he killed Plum, if he targetted Kmd4390, that might explain 3 units of energy absorbed, but Kmd4390 should be dead if this was the case, based on his claim (that his absorption shield only absorbs energy but doesn't cause the ability/kill to fail, which doesn't fit with SC2 Jugger's in-game ability at all).Kast wrote:@Zito--Was this part of your plan as discussed with Plum?That said, Rising, could Plum have used her ability to cause people to jump ship on Locke Lamora and then picked him up?
-When you switch players, are they able to use Active Abilities after the switch?
@Lots of Deaths-
It is also possible that LL used a suicide attack which was not a Racial Ability.
I agree 100%, it's annoying if I get lynched (in lylo) based on flavor reasons instead of scumhunting or game mechanics reasons. If I knew it wasn't lylo, I'd have no problem being today's lynch, but one scum remaining seems unlikely.Kast wrote:How about more focus on definitive scumtells instead of BS?Yea, more focus on behavior and less on finding "mistakes" in flavor would be good.
It's typical "oh, look I'm being a cautious town player, I don't want scum to hammer... Oh nevermind, I'm sure this guy is scum" kind of play.Kast wrote:-Explain.Kast's unvote was scummy,
This is the second time you've posted something that could apply to either align, and instead of saying "this could be desperate town" you say it's "desperate scum"; that's scummy. If it's lylo, I don't want the game to end with my lynch.Kast wrote:-This eagerness to jump on and agree with something Rising posted without explanation sounds like desperate scum.
Your game today has been lots of:Kast wrote:?Calling for someone's lynch is passive how?his behavior today seems different than his behavior earlier (more passive),
Kast wrote:This is false. Seriously reaching and twisting what I said. It is possible that I can block you. The lack of kill is not proof of that.He also says that since there's proof that he can block me based on lack of kill
Did I really twist this?Kast wrote:I agree that KMD's role sounds bogus. Potentially gaining tons of energy but no way to use it doesn't sound that plausible. As claimed, he is equivalent to being vanilla. Actually, the biggest point I see in favor of lynching him instead of lynching you is that the lack of kills on N1 could indicate that I can successfully stop you from killing, whereas KMD might kill as a non-racial ship ability.
I think it's weird that SpyreX has clarified this point for you according to your post:Kast wrote:This part is also not proof, but it is stronger indication that you are lying and is a more accurate portrayal of what I have posted.and that I got flavor from SpyreX when I shouldn't have,
But if the pairing was me/Excedrin, then you'd have no reason for not leaving your vote on Excedrin. I did not suggest that I am cleared townie, but IKast wrote:I also disagree that it was clear that you did not intend to hammer. I did not strongly suspect you, but it was possible that you were trying to decide whether or not to hammer your buddy.
Sure. But how would a suicide attack benefit town?Kast wrote:@Lots of Deaths-
It is also possible that LL used a suicide attack which was not a Racial Ability.
Ex... If you're town, then you *know* that both Kast and Kmd are scumbuddies, because otherwise, you would already be dead. Therefore, you shouldn't pay much attention to Kmd's claim.Excedrin wrote:if he targetted Kmd4390, that might explain 3 units of energy absorbed
The plan was:Kast wrote:@Zito--Was this part of your plan as discussed with Plum?That said, Rising, could Plum have used her ability to cause people to jump ship on Locke Lamora and then picked him up?
-When you switch players, are they able to use Active Abilities after the switch?
It's more than that. It's not just wishy-washy voting. The thing about LYLO is that people can deduce so much for SURE when noone hammers. I posted but did not hammer, and immediately everyone knows that I'm not scum unless I am Excedrin's scumbuddie. It's just impossible. Papa hadn't posted at the time, but when he would everyone would be able to say the same thing about him (as we can, now). That rules out so many possible scumpairings that it is quite understandable that Kast could panic if he was scum.Excedrin (at Kast) wrote:It's typical "oh, look I'm being a cautious town player, I don't want scum to hammer... Oh nevermind, I'm sure this guy is scum" kind of play.
This does not explain how it is scummy. You offer no discernment between this and a townie doing the same thing. Again, provide explanation of how this is scummy.It's typical "oh, look I'm being a cautious town player, I don't want scum to hammer... Oh nevermind, I'm sure this guy is scum" kind of play.
False. This does not sound like desperate town. Desperate town is not concerned with keeping self alive at all costs. Desperate town is concerned with lynching suspected scum at all costs. You have claimed to believe KMD is scum; desperate town would push this. As a claimed cop, it is almost incomprehensible how unwilling you were to initially vote for a player who your own claimed investigation incriminated. Another sign that you are probably bussing your buddy.This is the second time you've posted something that could apply to either align, and instead of saying "this could be desperate town" you say it's "desperate scum"; that's scummy. If it's lylo, I don't want the game to end with my lynch.
Yes. You conflated the two ideas when they are clearly distinct. The former is a very weak argument for lynching KMD today instead of lynching you. The latter is a reason I suspect you more than KMD.Did I really twist this?
Excedrin wrote:And despite that, you're still listing it as a reason to lynch Excedrin.
Context is important. The previous clarification that I was given made it explicitly clear that you were lying. Spyrex does not want to directly influence the game. Unfortunately, sometimes players lie and his clarifications will influence the game by catching those lies.Kast wrote:This kinda contradicts the previous clarification I was given.
This is pretty straightforward. If you are town, scum endgame us. If for some reason the game continues, KMD is obv-scum and I roleblock him.I'd expect townKast to figure out what happens if Excedrin is telling the truth and compare that to what happens if I'm not. That there's no huge matrix of possible outcomes seems out of character.
This is untrue. Allowing for extra discussion and ensuring that no mistakes are being made is a huge reason to unvote even confirmed scum.And it's only reasonable to unvote if one has reason to believe one's currently voting for town.
To be clear, Plum did intend to use her Active Racial Ability to eject a player (probably LL) from his ship after being switched back. However, a player is unable to use Active abilities after you switch them. Does this mean that Plum would try but would probably be unable to actually eject a player after being switched?3. Plum uses her ships other ability (the ability to snatch a player off of his ship) on someone else. She said she'd probably take Locke.
Players can't use active abilities, no. Plum had an active racial ability that she couldn't use. Her flavor said she "disoriented." Rising's passive ability doesn't seem affected.
I don't know this because it's not certain that there's 2 scum. If there are 2 scum then, yes, it's Kmd4390 and Kast, but then I have to figure out how I got a message from mod that clearly indicates Kast is Pkunk.Rising wrote: Ex... If you're town, then you *know* that both Kast and Kmd are scumbuddies, because otherwise, you would already be dead. Therefore, you shouldn't pay much attention to Kmd's claim.
Because it's something that others can see is impossible (unless I'm lying). His claim came before other claims, he didn't know if Papa Zito or Rising had targetted him, if either of them did, it would verify his claim. Nobody else has claimed to target him. He says that Kast is town. For him to stick to his story, I must have had a kill that killed (at least) Plum as well as some other ability with unknown results that targeted Kmd4390 that used 3 units of energy. So my persistence in pointing out his "3 energy units" claim has caused him to say that:Kast wrote:-I don't know why you keep pointing out that KMD's claimed 3 energy units is significant proof of anything. If you are trying to show that someone is not scum, assuming that the person is not scum is not valid.
How is my claim implausible? Because ZFP doesn't have radar dishes as heads in SC2?Kast wrote:I agree with you that KMD's claim sounds implausible. This balances against your own claim which is equally implausible. Fortunately, the two implausible roleclaims coincide with two players who are most likely to be scum (objectively due to direct contradiction).
Ugh, this reminds me of day 1 Kast. I say, "It's typical scum behavior" and Kast says, "you didn't explain how it's scummy". Rising had a different take, I think it's simpler, as in, scum trying to score town cred by appearing to be a cautious townie, fearing hammer, etc. Town being cautious here by unvoting doesn't make sense, if there's 2 scum, then after townKast's initial vote, the game is (theoretically) over. townKast would have been actually cautious, and not cast his vote until after hearing from Papa Zito and Rising instead of feigned caution (casting the vote and then unvoting).Kast wrote:This does not explain how it is scummy. You offer no discernment between this and a townie doing the same thing. Again, provide explanation of how this is scummy.It's typical "oh, look I'm being a cautious town player, I don't want scum to hammer... Oh nevermind, I'm sure this guy is scum" kind of play.
If it's lylo, why wouldn't town be concerned with "keeping self alive at all costs"? You're wrong about that. The current reasons to lynch me are based on flavor and "bullshit" as you stated. From a behavior point of view, Kmd4390 is lurking and has disappeared since botching his claim. It looks like he's not concerned with helping Rising and Papa Zito make a good decision, he's just waiting and hoping they make a mistake, that's scummy.Kast wrote:False. This does not sound like desperate town. Desperate town is not concerned with keeping self alive at all costs. Desperate town is concerned with lynching suspected scum at all costs. You have claimed to believe KMD is scum; desperate town would push this. As a claimed cop, it is almost incomprehensible how unwilling you were to initially vote for a player who your own claimed investigation incriminated. Another sign that you are probably bussing your buddy.This is the second time you've posted something that could apply to either align, and instead of saying "this could be desperate town" you say it's "desperate scum"; that's scummy. If it's lylo, I don't want the game to end with my lynch.
To be clear, you think that my decision to unvote is incomprehensible behavior. What you see as scummy is incomprehensible behavior at a time when scum could potentially be panicked.That rules out so many possible scumpairings that it is quite understandable that Kast could panic if he was scum.
Pretty much. The vote was of course thoughtless to begin with; because a townplayer in his right mind would never have pushed someone to L-1 without a good reason. Therefore, neither would a scumplayer. So we've already established that you're bonkers, either way.Kast wrote:To be clear, you think that my decision to unvote is incomprehensible behavior. What you see as scummy is incomprehensible behavior at a time when scum could potentially be panicked.
The thing that makes the most sense to you is that I realized your posting without hammering confirmed you as not scum if Excedrin is town, and, in a moment of thoughtless panic, unvoted despite unvoting not actually doing anything that could benefit scum-Kast. Then I re-voted after calming down. Is that accurate?
No, that is reason for not putting someone at -1 in the first place.Kast wrote: This is untrue. Allowing for extra discussion and ensuring that no mistakes are being made is a huge reason to unvote even confirmed scum.
That's yet another reason for not putting someone at -1 in the first place.Kast wrote:As I said, Excedrin-scum could have decided to self-hammer to end the day without letting Zito post thoughts and/or figure out what he wants to do. This is hardly a rare or unusual scum tactic.
The idea of a "Suicide Vig" is one of the worst role ideas I've ever heard of. If you're town you should apologize to Spyrex, because that is downright insulting. That's like the antithesis of fun (="in the unlikely event that you've played so well that you would want to use this ability, it would then be game over for you and you would not get to play anymore"). But even worse; in a setup like this; where players are expected to get aboard eachothers ships, it would just be awful for a townie to have the ability to Vig+"kill everyone else on the same ship as your target". And if heKast wrote:LL thought Plum was scum. Using a suicide attack to try and kill someone who he suspected as scum would benefit the town by killing a player he thought was scum. I don't follow where your confusion comes from.
Try. Because I'm gonna hammer you if you don't.Excedrin wrote:If there are 2 scum then, yes, it's Kmd4390 and Kast, but then I have to figure out how I got a message from mod that clearly indicates Kast is Pkunk.
Which possibly explains why he didn't claim his actual ship today.Kmd4390 wrote:Unclaimed red ship pretty much means he has to be scum.
This really surprised me given his Excedrin and Zito or Rising pair today.Kmd4390 wrote:Unvote. Kast can't be scum unless you are, then.
Rising wrote:Seriously, Kast. You've been sloppy this whole day: Misreading and misunderstanding pretty much everything that anyone writes, and suggesting these kind of things... Come on.
There's two players who are playing sloppy and not thinking things thru. If they're aligned scum there's a clear motivation for them to do that.Rising to Kmd4390 wrote:...or Excedrin is scum with either you or Kast as a scumbuddy. Seriously: FOS Kmd for not thinking things through. I'm pretty sure by now that we have a Kmd/Excedrin pairing.
You're not really making sense and relying on craplogic.The vote was of course thoughtless to begin with; because a townplayer in his right mind would never have pushed someone to L-1 without a good reason. Therefore, neither would a scumplayer. So we've already established that you're bonkers, either way.
Already addressed. I didn't put him at L-1. Please pay attention to the game.Rising wrote:No, that is reason for not putting someone at -1 in the first place.Kast wrote: This is untrue. Allowing for extra discussion and ensuring that no mistakes are being made is a huge reason to unvote even confirmed scum.
This is addressed already; I didn't put him at L-1, and the two conditions are not mutually exclusive.That's yet another reason for not putting someone at -1 in the first place.
It's a standard role. It's usually called a terrorist or a suicide bomber, but it's really not as unlikely as you are acting. I'll expand on my advice from D1, don't assume that things are impossible just because you personally haven't seen them before.The idea of a "Suicide Vig" is one of the worst role ideas I've ever heard of.
This is a lame attitude. Scum should not be excused from apologizing for insulting behavior. They can be excused from conducting anti-town behavior since they are anti-town, but if someone insulted the moderator, they should apologize regardless of affiliation.If you're town you should apologize to Spyrex, because that is downright insulting.
It's a pretty balanced role. A limited vig who has to be very careful. It has good synergy with a vig/roleblocker/ship miller (who also kills people on his ship).That's like the antithesis of fun (="in the unlikely event that you've played so well that you would want to use this ability, it would then be game over for you and you would not get to play anymore").
? I'm not seeing it. You'll have to be a lot more clear on why this makes it less likely.But even worse; in a setup like this; where players are expected to get aboard eachothers ships, it would just be awful for a townie to have the ability to Vig+"kill everyone else on the same ship as your target".
Killing yourself to kill scum is hardly stupid. Announcing a planned kill target prior to doing would be stupid, especially if the kill required a heavy price. If LL had that ability and thought Plum was scum, then he should have thought it unlikely that Plum would rescue a townie (much less two townies).And if he did have this horribly unfun and antitown ability, and if he were stupid (yes, I'm gonna use that word in this case) enough to use it, wouldn't he tell us about it beforehand, knowing that he would not be here to explain things afterwards?
Now you're just making things up.Seriously, Kast. You've been sloppy this whole day: Misreading and misunderstanding pretty much everything that anyone writes, and suggesting these kind of things... Come on.
Again, there is no need to rush. I'm assuming you are in communication with Zito, but if not, check with him before hammering.Try. Because I'm gonna hammer you if you don't.
To expand on this. If you want to share your real role and KMD's real role, and those roles strongly suggest that we should lynch KMD before lynching you, then please do that. Otherwise, I don't see any reason to move my vote.Kast wrote:@Excedrin-
-You must be scum.
If you are town and actually believe this, then you've made a mistake somewhere. Simpler explanation is that you're scum with Kmd4390 and trying to win via easy mislynch.Kast wrote:@Excedrin-
-You must be scum. Showing that KMD is probably your scumbuddy doesn't change that you are scum and should be lynched.