Mini 856 - Star Control: Zeta Sextantis - Over
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- Rosso Carne
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wifomPapa Zito wrote:I've never seen a scum team actively defend each other in thread.Kmd4390 wrote:Zito, tell me what you, Plum, and Sigma did that was "obvious" and why scum wouldn't do it.
I'm not terribly fond of either one. If sarcasm = scum then game over, the whole site just lost.Kmd4390 wrote:Zito, Porkens is probably town and Excedrin is probably town too. Who do you find scummy?
[13:31] glorktheinvader: and I was rocking this one guy
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being unhelpful is scummy.Papa Zito wrote:I'm trying to demostrate what a real scumtell looks like, because it seems people have forgotten.
There's nothing scummy about sarcasm; that whole argument is stupid.
youre unhelpful
but i think its becase youre a n00B
[13:31] glorktheinvader: and I was rocking this one guy
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Rising &c. - I have better things to do with the limited amount of time I have in this game than spend a huge chunk of it analyzing and reanalyzing an argument that is almost purely theory-based when I realized that it's doubtful I can winnow any significant tells on anyone involved out of the chaff that is the argument itself. Is it possible that Rising is committing a scumtell in his theory arguments? Quite. Am I likely to get something conclusive enough to be useful out of it? Not in the long-term.
Kast's post Post 53 is too dense for me to get through well and he hasn't voted all game I think (> scumtell than not voting in first . Kise, why are you throwing around terms like "craplogic" and "strawman" and "misrepresenting" but unable to point to scum suspects or vote anyone you accuse of doing things which connote scumminess?
Rising was at least voting for his early best bet, and even if I'm not sure his Rosso Carne, am I onto what you're onto?
And yeah, once I sorted it out Rising's reasoning for voting Dry-fit is pretty unimpressive. Hard to tell whether it's scummy or not, if, for example, Kmd would like to lay out what he sees there, I'm all ears.
Zito, your "opportunism" tell - in terms which I read as definitely serious:
Let's stir the pot a bit (though the pot-stirring is just a handy bonus)
Not since last time you announced (just about) sure scumreads on page 3 with fairly little to base your surety on and flipped scum I don't know what to make of you (and yes, when on page four you announced in no uncertain terms that you wanted Pom lynched . . . Frankly, I've learned the hard way not to trust myself to trust you.Kmd4390 wrote:Not sure what to make of Plum's reaction. Yes, the original attack was weak. But Plum has been around long enough to know when someone is looking for a reaction. Hmm.
Fair enough. I could ask how strong a scumtell you'd think it would be in this situation, but fair enough.Excedrin wrote:Sarcasm can be scummy in some cases, especially if it's used to dismiss a case against oneself. I'm not sure if I can justify anything beyond that.
Also fair enough. In fact, I outright like that point. Disagree that Porkens' is prob-town; I'm reading null or possibly a slight town-tell (for some reason I feel pretty okay about his post 49).Kmd4390 wrote:Plum, the sarcasm looks more like scum who is annoyed because they are being wagoned and aren't even playing that badly. I had this happen to myself recently. Jelly could tell you all about that game. :eyeroll:.
Mod: could we get a "Not Voting" line at the bottom of each votecount pretty please? I find them very useful. Thanks.
Kmd-scum did that with his Godfather just the other week in a mini-Normal, for the record.sigma wrote:Early game distancing happens, certainly. Honestly, I hadn't considered that possibility -- I would think it unlikely that KMD-scum would attack Papa-scum right off the bat like that, personally.Early bus never happens?
Kast's post Post 53 is too dense for me to get through well and he hasn't voted all game I think (> scumtell than not voting in first . Kise, why are you throwing around terms like "craplogic" and "strawman" and "misrepresenting" but unable to point to scum suspects or vote anyone you accuse of doing things which connote scumminess?
The terms used here that I bolded commonly connote scumminess of actions, but here, despite the fact that you believe Rising did that stuff you won't vote him? You use even stronger terms than I did - and I was voting my just-about-best lead at the time, Kmd. You also attack Dry-fit and whatnot. But why not vote?Kast wrote:@Rising, 51-
-Youmanufactureda"tell"by creating astraw man.
Rising was at least voting for his early best bet, and even if I'm not sure his Rosso Carne, am I onto what you're onto?
And yeah, once I sorted it out Rising's reasoning for voting Dry-fit is pretty unimpressive. Hard to tell whether it's scummy or not, if, for example, Kmd would like to lay out what he sees there, I'm all ears.
Zito, your "opportunism" tell - in terms which I read as definitely serious:
well. In very early stages perceived opportunism - especially in a case like this, where I cant see either vote being obtusely opportunistic (Porkens reads give-or-take null on his vote from what I remember of playing with him and you could argue Excedrin's) the second two of three votes on a guy on Page 2 are not really indicative of anything all by their lonesome and you seem to try to make it out like it is.Papa Zito wrote:Again, one of Porkens or Excedrin is very likely scum due to opportunistic voting.
Let's stir the pot a bit (though the pot-stirring is just a handy bonus)
Unvote; Vote: Kise
FOS: Zito
.FOS: Zito
@Plum-
-I'm assuming that "Kise" refers to "Kast"? You kinda swapped there in the middle.
-To paraphrase your argument, you admit that I am scumhunting and have raised several valid points, however, you object to my failure to vote based on any of the things I have raised. Is this an accurate summary of your reason for voting "Kise"?
I'll vote when I'm ready to vote; either if I find a player I am willing to lynch or if I feel my vote would help to elicit a response/reaction.
-I don't think it helps to give scum lots of easy wagons to jump aboard. Voting for each and every potential tell just lets scum blend easier while pushing a mislynch without getting any heat for doing so.
@KMD-
I'm not sure why you read me as obv-town. You've called me that in at least two other games we've played (I was town in both and you were town in one and scum in the other). The game where you were town, I could understand why you called me obvtown. The game where you were scum, I didn't see why you as a townie would call me obvtown, but I accepted your support nonetheless. I'll accept it again here, but I'd like to hear your reasons.
@Rosso-
Are you going to share your reason(s) for wanting to hammer me?
@Zito-
-Agreed that sarcasm itself is not inherently scummy. If it is used in place of defending oneself, that is scummy (although this is by virtue of not giving a defense, not because anything is wrong with sarcasm). I don't see Zito's situation as falling into that category.
-I'm not seeing the case against Zito. I think he is right to say it is extremely weak.
@Rising-
-When you avoid addressing an argument by attacking a player's irrelevant, personal, meta-statistics, that is petty and I'll call you on it. If you didn't post that in the first place, then I wouldn't call you on it. I didn't call it stupid.
Perhaps you felt your example was clever and relevant. I disagree and feel it was a very petty and childish way to attack other players while avoiding addressing the main point.
-Your new argument against Excedrin is much more valid; objecting to his claim that "sarcasm" is a scum tell is reasonable. It is not the same as your initial argument which you pushed despite others pointing out it's flaws. It looks like you have abandoned your initial argument.
-Ironically, you call out Dry-fit for the same behavior that you engaged in within the same post. This has been pointed out, but should not detract from your point against Dry-fit which is valid.
-I'm assuming that "Kise" refers to "Kast"? You kinda swapped there in the middle.
-To paraphrase your argument, you admit that I am scumhunting and have raised several valid points, however, you object to my failure to vote based on any of the things I have raised. Is this an accurate summary of your reason for voting "Kise"?
I'll vote when I'm ready to vote; either if I find a player I am willing to lynch or if I feel my vote would help to elicit a response/reaction.
-I don't think it helps to give scum lots of easy wagons to jump aboard. Voting for each and every potential tell just lets scum blend easier while pushing a mislynch without getting any heat for doing so.
@KMD-
I'm not sure why you read me as obv-town. You've called me that in at least two other games we've played (I was town in both and you were town in one and scum in the other). The game where you were town, I could understand why you called me obvtown. The game where you were scum, I didn't see why you as a townie would call me obvtown, but I accepted your support nonetheless. I'll accept it again here, but I'd like to hear your reasons.
@Rosso-
Are you going to share your reason(s) for wanting to hammer me?
@Zito-
-Agreed that sarcasm itself is not inherently scummy. If it is used in place of defending oneself, that is scummy (although this is by virtue of not giving a defense, not because anything is wrong with sarcasm). I don't see Zito's situation as falling into that category.
-I'm not seeing the case against Zito. I think he is right to say it is extremely weak.
@Rising-
-When you avoid addressing an argument by attacking a player's irrelevant, personal, meta-statistics, that is petty and I'll call you on it. If you didn't post that in the first place, then I wouldn't call you on it. I didn't call it stupid.
Perhaps you felt your example was clever and relevant. I disagree and feel it was a very petty and childish way to attack other players while avoiding addressing the main point.
-Your new argument against Excedrin is much more valid; objecting to his claim that "sarcasm" is a scum tell is reasonable. It is not the same as your initial argument which you pushed despite others pointing out it's flaws. It looks like you have abandoned your initial argument.
-Ironically, you call out Dry-fit for the same behavior that you engaged in within the same post. This has been pointed out, but should not detract from your point against Dry-fit which is valid.
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Do you really think Kmd was being serious? Kmd himself has stated he was not. Excedrin interpreted his comment as not being serious. Taking what someone says literally does not mean it's not a misinterpretation.Rising wrote:O RLY? Because what Sigma saidDry-fit wrote:The reason I disliked his [Sigma's] voteis because I don't believe Kmd was seriously trying to "convince other playersto vote your lynch target" at all, and I don't see how his post could have possibly been interpreted that way.when he votedwas "Don't you think it's a little early to start convincing playersthat you've found scum?" That is hardly a misinterpretation, since KMD said "Yep. You're scum. I'm sure of it."
Okay, so it wasn't in the same post, but it was clearly a point meant to support his vote. What's your point?Sigma didn't suggest that KMD was trying to convince other players tovote his lynch targetuntil hisnextpost, #38, so you're clearly not remembering things right.
And if you thought this was such a misrepresentation, why didn't you
say
so in post #43? In post #43 you discussed a completely different
(and quite silly) issue.I did say so:
Dry-fit wrote:But that's exactly what the purpose of Kmd's vote and comment were, to generate discussion.
1. No, it's not what he wrote, but so what? Are you really going to argue that his stated reason for voting means something different?Rising wrote:#57: Dry-fit says "The reason I disliked his vote is because I don't believe Kmd was seriously trying to "convince other players to vote your lynch target" at all" which doesn't add up, for two reasons:
1. That is not what Sigma wrote when he cast his vote. Dry-fit just got that quote from Kast, just now. There was absolutely no misrepresentation going on when Sigma cast his vote, back in #33.
2. This is the first time Dry-fit brings this issue up. If this is the reason he disliked Sigma's vote, why didn't he say so in #43? Why discuss semantics if he had serious and valid reasons for mistrusting Sigma?
2. I did say so, as already explained.
About "semantics": I never intended to have a semantics argument, and there never was one. sigma himself agreed that Kmd generated discussion. Here is the passage in question:
My point was that Kmd has done the former(and no one has objected), and clearly has not done the latter. Where can a semantics debate pop up?sigma wrote:The goal of this stage of the game is to generate discussion, not convince other players to vote your lynch target.
Andy Murray: Two time Wimbledon and one time US Open Champ! Former world number 1!
C'mon Andy!
C'mon Andy!
Kast wrote:When you avoid addressing an argument by attacking a player's irrelevant, personal, meta-statistics, that is petty and I'll call you on it. [...] I disagree and feel it was a very petty and childish way to attack other players
O RLY?
Kast wrote: "You may personally be incapable of catching scum tells without the benefit of hindsight. Please don't automatically assume that your limitations are true for everyone else."
Irrelevant? Nope, you brought this issue up yourself, and it was
me
who called you
out on it. I was willing to put your statement above to the test.I didn't accuse you of callingKast wrote:I didn't call it stupid.
this particular
sentence stupid (you did that in an earlier post). I wondered why you had to be such a jerk in this game
. If you want to provoke to get a reaction there are other, much better ways.What are you talking about? That is not my "new argument". That was just what had happened in the beginning of he game, when I wrote my first post. I therefore naturally assumed that every player had seen it, so I didn't feel the need to point it out.Kast wrote:Your new argument against Excedrin, objecting to his claim that "sarcasm" is a scum tell is reasonable
And how could you possibly believe that the argument you propose would be a reasonable argument against
Excedrin?
It was KMD
that started the bandwagon against Pipo and said that sarcasm was a scumtell (he's still
saying it, btw). It would've been extremely scummy and completely nonsensical for a player to vote Excedrin and not KMD, if his argument was what you've just proposed.Please explain yourself, because there must be something that I've misunderstood.
---
KMD was just instigating with hisDry-fit wrote:Do you really think Kmd was being serious? Kmd himself has stated he was not.
first
post - that's true - but Sigma responded to a later post, where KMD said that he was sure
that Papa was scum (and KMD has not changed his opinion since then!
- he does it again in #71). That's how serious he is.You lied; and you think it's not a big deal?No, it's not what he wrote, but so what?
(Well, I can see this as an honest and understandable mistake, actually, but I had to call you out on it to get a read on you)
Yes, of course I'm going to. Sigma'sAre you really going to argue that his stated reason for voting means something different?
stated
reason for voting in #33 is a reasonable and sensible post, but his explanation in #38 is pretty crazy and certainly up for a debate. There's no way you can convince me that #38 follows logically from #33.Actually, SigmaMy point was that Kmd has done the former(and no one has objected), and clearly has not done the latter. Where can a semantics debate pop up?
has
objected. He just resigned to the silliness of your argument and admitted that "Sure, he generated discussion -- bully for him, I'll keep it in mind. I wasn't a fan of the way in which he generated discussion, however". Your silly semantics argument implied that when Sigma wrote "The goal of this stage of the game is to generate discussion" he should be fine with any
discussion what so ever (even a ridiculous one), and that was clearly not what he meant. He has already explained this himself.That's a pretty far reach, Dry.I did say so, as already explained
"So you're saying he's scum for accomplishing the goal of this stage by creating discussion?" does
not
equal "The reason I disliked his vote is because I don't believe Kmd was seriously trying to 'convince other players to vote your lynch target' at all".What do you say about Sigma's view: "My opinion is that this could possibly be scum trying to appear like the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player, and I voted him to underline this point." Plum tells us in #84 that KMD has been known to do this as scum in other games.
I'd like to hear your opinion on this.
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noKast wrote:@Plum-
-I'm assuming that "Kise" refers to "Kast"? You kinda swapped there in the middle.
-To paraphrase your argument, you admit that I am scumhunting and have raised several valid points, however, you object to my failure to vote based on any of the things I have raised. Is this an accurate summary of your reason for voting "Kise"?
I'll vote when I'm ready to vote; either if I find a player I am willing to lynch or if I feel my vote would help to elicit a response/reaction.
-I don't think it helps to give scum lots of easy wagons to jump aboard. Voting for each and every potential tell just lets scum blend easier while pushing a mislynch without getting any heat for doing so.
@KMD-
I'm not sure why you read me as obv-town. You've called me that in at least two other games we've played (I was town in both and you were town in one and scum in the other). The game where you were town, I could understand why you called me obvtown. The game where you were scum, I didn't see why you as a townie would call me obvtown, but I accepted your support nonetheless. I'll accept it again here, but I'd like to hear your reasons.
@Rosso-
Are you going to share your reason(s) for wanting to hammer me?
@Zito-
-Agreed that sarcasm itself is not inherently scummy. If it is used in place of defending oneself, that is scummy (although this is by virtue of not giving a defense, not because anything is wrong with sarcasm). I don't see Zito's situation as falling into that category.
-I'm not seeing the case against Zito. I think he is right to say it is extremely weak.
@Rising-
-When you avoid addressing an argument by attacking a player's irrelevant, personal, meta-statistics, that is petty and I'll call you on it. If you didn't post that in the first place, then I wouldn't call you on it. I didn't call it stupid.
Perhaps you felt your example was clever and relevant. I disagree and feel it was a very petty and childish way to attack other players while avoiding addressing the main point.
-Your new argument against Excedrin is much more valid; objecting to his claim that "sarcasm" is a scum tell is reasonable. It is not the same as your initial argument which you pushed despite others pointing out it's flaws. It looks like you have abandoned your initial argument.
-Ironically, you call out Dry-fit for the same behavior that you engaged in within the same post. This has been pointed out, but should not detract from your point against Dry-fit which is valid.
[13:31] glorktheinvader: and I was rocking this one guy
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write who the damn quotes are fromRising wrote:Kast wrote:When you avoid addressing an argument by attacking a player's irrelevant, personal, meta-statistics, that is petty and I'll call you on it. [...] I disagree and feel it was a very petty and childish way to attack other players
O RLY?
Kast wrote: "You may personally be incapable of catching scum tells without the benefit of hindsight. Please don't automatically assume that your limitations are true for everyone else."
Irrelevant? Nope, you brought this issue up yourself, and it wasmewho calledyouout on it. I was willing to put your statement above to the test.
I didn't accuse you of callingKast wrote:I didn't call it stupid.this particularsentence stupid (you did that in an earlier post). I wondered why you had to be such a jerkin this game. If you want to provoke to get a reaction there are other, much better ways.
What are you talking about? That is not my "new argument". That was just what had happened in the beginning of he game, when I wrote my first post. I therefore naturally assumed that every player had seen it, so I didn't feel the need to point it out.Kast wrote:Your new argument against Excedrin, objecting to his claim that "sarcasm" is a scum tell is reasonable
And how could you possibly believe that the argument you propose would be a reasonable argument againstExcedrin?It wasKMDthat started the bandwagon against Pipo and said that sarcasm was a scumtell (he'sstillsaying it, btw). It would've been extremely scummy and completely nonsensical for a player to vote Excedrin and not KMD, if his argument was what you've just proposed.
Please explain yourself, because there must be something that I've misunderstood.
---
KMD was just instigating with hisDry-fit wrote:Do you really think Kmd was being serious? Kmd himself has stated he was not.firstpost - that's true - but Sigma responded to a later post, where KMD said that he wassurethat Papa was scum (and KMDhas not changed his opinion since then!- he does it again in #71). That's how serious he is.
You lied; and you think it's not a big deal?No, it's not what he wrote, but so what?
(Well, I can see this as an honest and understandable mistake, actually, but I had to call you out on it to get a read on you)
Yes, of course I'm going to. Sigma'sAre you really going to argue that his stated reason for voting means something different?statedreason for voting in #33 is a reasonable and sensible post, but his explanation in #38 is pretty crazy and certainly up for a debate. There's no way you can convince me that #38 follows logically from #33.
Actually, SigmaMy point was that Kmd has done the former(and no one has objected), and clearly has not done the latter. Where can a semantics debate pop up?hasobjected. He just resigned to the silliness of your argument and admitted that "Sure, he generated discussion -- bully for him, I'll keep it in mind. I wasn't a fan of the way in which he generated discussion, however". Your silly semantics argument implied that when Sigma wrote "The goal of this stage of the game is to generate discussion" he should be fine withanydiscussion what so ever (even a ridiculous one), and that was clearly not what he meant. He has already explained this himself.
That's a pretty far reach, Dry.I did say so, as already explained
"So you're saying he's scum for accomplishing the goal of this stage by creating discussion?" doesnotequal "The reason I disliked his vote is because I don't believe Kmd was seriously trying to 'convince other players to vote your lynch target' at all".
What do you say about Sigma's view: "My opinion is that this could possibly be scum trying to appear like the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player, and I voted him to underline this point." Plum tells us in #84 that KMD has been known to do this as scum in other games.
I'd like to hear your opinion on this.
[13:31] glorktheinvader: and I was rocking this one guy
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Actually, Porkens hasn't posted since I asked him a question -- thought he had.
Every single sentence he's written in game has been a question. Good way for scum to skate by without actually having to state an opinion.
unvote
Vote: Locke Lamora
Every single sentence he's written in game has been a question. Good way for scum to skate by without actually having to state an opinion.
Just felt really over the top to me -- IMO, saying "You're scum, I'm sure of it" is something I would never do as town. Not to say you'd never do it, obviously, but just didn't like it. You look more pro-town since then.KMD wrote:Sigma, why "scum trying to look like the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player." rather than "the stereotypical aggressive pro-town player"? What is the most notable difference there?
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Or you don't really think his sarcasm is scummy, you were just doing it to get a reaction.Kmd4390 wrote:Zito wasn't newbish in Boost 2.
Locke, guess I mis-spoke lol.
Sigma: so Porkens is less scummy because he hasn't posted at all since you asked him a question than if he'd posted and hadn't answered it? Yes, that is another question.
yes, he is less scummy. he hasn't done anything other than wagon Zito and make his KMD statement, which doesn't look serious to me, so he's still odd. I did think he'd ignored my question for some reason, and that wasn't true, so I changed my mind.
Congrats on your first in-game declarative sentence, by the way.
What do you think of KMD so far?
Congrats on your first in-game declarative sentence, by the way.
What do you think of KMD so far?
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Thanks. I'm very proud of it.
I'm dubious of KMD. I know that his confident "Zito's scum" stance was probably to get a rise out of Zito as much as anything but I think he's then used whatever he can get from Zito's reaction to make him look scummy. That's why I challenged him on the sarcasm comment; it just looked like point-scoring to make Zito look bad, dropping one of his earlier points against Zito in the process which indicates to me that he never really thought it was scummy in the first place. Now that I think about it, I'm going to go ahead and:
Do you stand by your statement that Zito's "Me?!? Nooo" style reaction is scummy?
I'm dubious of KMD. I know that his confident "Zito's scum" stance was probably to get a rise out of Zito as much as anything but I think he's then used whatever he can get from Zito's reaction to make him look scummy. That's why I challenged him on the sarcasm comment; it just looked like point-scoring to make Zito look bad, dropping one of his earlier points against Zito in the process which indicates to me that he never really thought it was scummy in the first place. Now that I think about it, I'm going to go ahead and:
Vote: KMD
Do you stand by your statement that Zito's "Me?!? Nooo" style reaction is scummy?
If ya smell what The Locke is cookin'!
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