Mini 1572 - The Network [Game Over]


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Post Post #75 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 7:59 am

Post by Aegor »

In post 74, Paschendale wrote:I wouldn't call that a misrep. Pushing for lynches based on setup spec is exactly what Charizard was doing.
That is not the point at issue. NS asserted that BC was pushing for lynches regardless of scumminess. This is
demonstrably
false. It is not open to disagreement because BC explicitly stated that he would not lynch someone he thought was town.
Charizard has also changed his story, or rather, changed the results that his supposed mathematical ideas give.
In what way, specifically?
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Post Post #76 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 8:11 am

Post by cxinlee »

posting here to say hi
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Post Post #77 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 8:14 am

Post by Paschendale »

In post 75, Aegor wrote:In what way, specifically?
The reasoning for choosing which numbers to attack was not the same in post 17 as it was later, and he added two more targets without explanation, and they just happened to be his detractors. His criteria keeps changing, and it's not adequately explained in the first place.

And, of course, he cannot address the counter that his idea doesn't actually help find scum at all. It only helps to determine whose abilities would be the most effective. His whole point ignores that roles are random.
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Post Post #78 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 8:15 am

Post by Paschendale »

In post 76, cxinlee wrote:posting here to say hi
Wanna say, you know, more than that?
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Post Post #79 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 8:21 am

Post by Aegor »

In post 77, Paschendale wrote:The reasoning for choosing which numbers to attack was not the same in post 17 as it was later,
Not true. Later, he simply added two additional slots based on the frequency of appearance. The other nodes he wanted to lynch among remained in play for the original reasons. He did not alter his justification; he simply expanded the scope.
and he added two more targets without explanation, and they just happened to be his detractors.
He absolutely explained why they were added. But it could still be an opportunistic play, yes.
And, of course, he cannot address the counter that his idea doesn't actually help find scum at all. It only helps to determine whose abilities would be the most effective. His whole point ignores that roles are random.
I agree. That does not make BC scum.
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Post Post #80 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 8:30 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 68, beastcharizard wrote:
In post 59, Nobody Special wrote:
In post 17, beastcharizard wrote:2 out of the numbers 5, 6, 11, 13 have to be scum in order for my theory to be correct.
It is my belief that we should lynch between these people.
No mention whatsoever about inherent towniness or lack thereof.
You are right. After 14 other posts I should have a clear read on every player in the game. I guess I just wasn't paying attention enough.
That was never expected of you. You are basing the lynch pool solely on node positions, and that's not the way to proceed. We are not lemmings. We are not going to blindly follow you off a cliff.
In post 62, idk wrote:Really not liking Charizard's idea here. I know it's already been said, but by saying that you want to lynch one of 4 people, you are significantly lowering our chance of lynching scum. At the same time, it makes it look like you are putting a good amount of effort into scumhunting, trying to look pro-town. Overall it seems really scum-motivated.
In post 68, beastcharizard wrote:Also if my theory is correct we have a 50/50 shot of hitting scum in my lynch pool compared to the unknown chances of hitting scum if we just lynch anyone.
What if your theory is incorrect? Suppose none of the scum are in the nodes you specify and scum always shoots outside those four in order to make them look suspicious. In that case, if we limit ourselves to lynching those four, we've screwed ourselves over and given scum the game on a silver platter. What is your fallback plan if you are wrong?
In post 62, idk wrote:You also have a 0% chance of hitting scum if you lynch me.
Classic "back off, I'm town" scum attitude that does us nothing..
In post 71, beastcharizard wrote:The last part of your post is so WIFOM.
Way to dismiss legitimate accusations.
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Post Post #81 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 9:00 am

Post by Porkens »

Hiyas, sorry for not posting more; it was a busy week all the way to the end.

I think Aegor's reactions lean town, since getting a wagon on Char seems feasible.

NS also feels town to me.

Char himself is a liiitle more town than a coin flip, but I suspect that scum are completely outside this ball of feelings we've got rich tnow
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Post Post #82 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 9:38 am

Post by beastcharizard »

@Strange:
Using the word IF is WIFOM.

If I don't have extra info then what is what I am doing?

If I am wrong I am wrong and I will admit it. There is a way to test it with two lynches. Is that going to happen? No because you are all focused on the fact that I came up with a theory on who the scum are. Also, almost any lynch besides my own and IDK's will narrow down the possible teams in my mind. After two lynches it will be cut down once again and at that point it should be obvious if my theory is wrong.

What do town do when they have a wagon on them yet no one will listen to them? Just accept the lynch that is pure BS?


UNVOTE:

VOTE: SiX

I think Aegor is town so this has to be scum.
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Post Post #83 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 9:46 am

Post by Snarky »

In post 69, Nobody Special wrote:
In post 64, Snarky wrote:Hmm... Aegor's reaction makes me feel charizard may be on something.

VOTE: Aegor
You're gonna have to walk me through this, step by step.
I found Aegor's reaction on charizard's setup speculation a little fast and exagerrated. He stated in his post 18, the first post after Charizard's setup spec, that his proposition would "screw town over". Even if I'm not fond of the idea of restricting the lynch pool based off Charizard's setup spec, it's definitely something to keep in mind when we'll see the first flips in the future, thus is not a proposition that would screw us over. That reaction of Aegor's felt like Charizard had hit the spot about the setup spec, and Aegor scum had to make sure to destroy the idea as soon as possible.


Then there was weird interactions between him and other players. RedCoyote's post 24 felt like a summary of everything Aegor had said previously. Same vote, same opinions, same everything. He then said Aegor was a townread of his, while everything Aegor had done was being on a anti-setup spec campaign against everyone. There's also tman2nd who called Aegor town out of nowhere, with no reasoning, seeming like scum trying to gain town creds by following that "obvtown" player.

Then there has been that really weird wagon on Charizard. I see how Paschendale has misunderstood Charizard, so I can see where his vote comes from (He doesn't seem to see the distinction between the nodes and the players. The nodes are assigned randomly to the players, yet the alignments in the nodes must have been predetermined for the game to be balanced). However, StrangerCoug one is weak, really weak.

Yah, writing that post starts to confuse me, I don't feel Aegor is scum anymore, I feel the scums are the ones trying to look town by following Aegor's lead. And there's a lot of them... Aegor's last posts also seems very pro-town, and his attack on NS is legitimate. So, after all this, my lynch pool is:

RedCoyote, tman2nd, StrangerCoug, NS, idk and the lurkers, which are not to be excluded, Six and cxinlee. All others have shown some restraint over the beast setup spec discussion, which is sign of a town mindset.

But the most scummy is StrangerCoug:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: StrangerCoug
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Post Post #84 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 12:45 pm

Post by snscompt1 »

I always hate agreeing with everyone since it seems like buddying but *sigh* I agree that Aegor seems town, but I also believe Charizard to be town also. His entire plan IS good. But like Ive stated, holds no water until some flips are revealed. He could be scum trying to get up to lynch PRs but if hes scum and knows all the PRs then they can just night kill them anyways(assuming the night kill isnt limitied by nodes which it may be).
Also for town is snarky. Comes from a very town point of view, or hes just good scum.

As for scum, I dont agree with everyone he said but some of them. RedCoyote, StrangerCoug, and I will include both lurkers but change my vote to:
UNVOTE
VOTE SIX
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Post Post #85 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 1:39 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 82, beastcharizard wrote:@Strange:
Using the word IF is WIFOM.
Yet you use the word two other times in your post. :roll:
In post 82, beastcharizard wrote:If I don't have extra info then what is what I am doing?
Not thinking things through, that's what it is.
In post 82, beastcharizard wrote:If I am wrong I am wrong and I will admit it. There is a way to test it with two lynches. Is that going to happen? No because you are all focused on the fact that I came up with a theory on who the scum are. Also, almost any lynch besides my own and IDK's will narrow down the possible teams in my mind. After two lynches it will be cut down once again and at that point it should be obvious if my theory is wrong.
If you are wrong, then you will also have blown the mislynches that we can afford by then.
In post 82, beastcharizard wrote:What do town do when they have a wagon on them yet no one will listen to them? Just accept the lynch that is pure BS?
I'm not convinced that your votes are anything but pure BS themselves. So what is this supposed to be insinuating?
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Post Post #86 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 4:40 pm

Post by idk »

In post 63, snscompt1 wrote:
In post 62, idk wrote:
Sns's play looked good up until he said to go back to RVS. Why would we go back to RVS when we already have discussion going on? I've played a few games with sns offsite (with a different username, though, tee hee), so I'm kinda using meta here, as he normally tends to have multiple scumreads and switches between them often. With a couple people he could find suspicious already here, him wanting RVS seems really out of character.

VOTE: BeastCharizard
Damn! Ive been found out! Youre right. I typically and the Village Idiot, but Im slowly starting to become a better player. Slowly.

I suggested back to RVS because although there is discussion on Charizard, I dont think its a good one. Trying to see the way the game works is part of the game and trying to see whether he is scum or town for trying to debug it isnt helpful since we are supposed to do that. Just not yet I think.

Who are ye offsite?
That's for you to find out. ;)
In post 68, beastcharizard wrote:
In post 59, Nobody Special wrote:
In post 17, beastcharizard wrote:2 out of the numbers 5, 6, 11, 13 have to be scum in order for my theory to be correct.
It is my belief that we should lynch between these people.
No mention whatsoever about inherent towniness or lack thereof.
You are right. After 14 other posts I should have a clear read on every player in the game. I guess I just wasn't paying attention enough.
In post 62, idk wrote:Really not liking Charizard's idea here. I know it's already been said, but by saying that you want to lynch one of 4 people, you are significantly lowering our chance of lynching scum. At the same time, it makes it look like you are putting a good amount of effort into scumhunting, trying to look pro-town. Overall it seems really scum-motivated.
Those are the people I would like to lynch between. As much as I would like to, it doesn't look like I am leading town right now so I am not dictating the whole towns lynch pool. There are many games where people want to lynch someone and that doesn't happen until later in the game. Why is it scummy for me to narrow down my own personal lynch pool? Also if my theory is correct we have a 50/50 shot of hitting scum in my lynch pool compared to the unknown chances of hitting scum if we just lynch anyone. You also have a 0% chance of hitting scum if you lynch me.

Finally, how is it scum motivated to try to break the game or to figure out the scum by the nodes?
By saying that
you
want to lynch one of 4 people means that you want
everyone
to lynch one of 4 people; lynching is a group effort, and requires more than one person's vote to happen.

It's not, but it
is
scum-motivated to try and have the town lynch one of 4 people and
only
one of 4 people.
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In post 80, StrangerCoug wrote:
In post 62, idk wrote:You also have a 0% chance of hitting scum if you lynch me.
Classic "back off, I'm town" scum attitude that does us nothing..
I
literally
did not say any of that. That was BeastCharizard.
In post 82, beastcharizard wrote:@Strange:
Using the word IF is WIFOM.

If I don't have extra info then what is what I am doing?

If I am wrong I am wrong and I will admit it. There is a way to test it with two lynches. Is that going to happen? No because you are all focused on the fact that I came up with a theory on who the scum are. Also, almost any lynch besides my own and IDK's will narrow down the possible teams in my mind. After two lynches it will be cut down once again and at that point it should be obvious if my theory is wrong.

What do town do when they have a wagon on them yet no one will listen to them? Just accept the lynch that is pure BS?


UNVOTE:

VOTE: SiX

I think Aegor is town so this has to be scum.
Why am I included in the "almost any lynch besides my own and IDK's will narrow down the possible teams in my mind."?
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Post Post #87 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 5:15 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

You are node 3 which is the only number that didn't pop up in my calculations.

Also, i know lynching is a group thing so you all have to agree with me or else the lynch can't happen. People have lynch pools they want to lynch from in every game I just developed mine at the start of the game based off of my theory.
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Post Post #88 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 5:52 pm

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 86, idk wrote:
In post 80, StrangerCoug wrote:
In post 62, idk wrote:You also have a 0% chance of hitting scum if you lynch me.
Classic "back off, I'm town" scum attitude that does us nothing..
I
literally
did not say any of that. That was BeastCharizard.
I used the opening quote tag from the wrong box. Apologies.
In post 87, beastcharizard wrote:Also, i know lynching is a group thing so you all have to agree with me or else the lynch can't happen.
This is incorrect as phrased. All it takes is seven people to overrule you.
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Post Post #89 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 5:54 pm

Post by kunkstar7 »

:: VoteCount 1x1 ::


beastcharizard (4)
-
StrangerCoug, Paschendale, Nobody Special, idk

snscompt1 (3)
-
SiX, RedCoyote, tman2nd

SiX (2)
-
beastcharizard, snscompt1

StrangerCoug (1)
-
Snarky

Nobody Special (1)
-
Aegor

Not Voting (2)
-
cxinlee, Porkens


With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.


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Post Post #90 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 9:13 pm

Post by beastcharizard »

In post 85, StrangerCoug wrote:
In post 82, beastcharizard wrote:If I am wrong I am wrong and I will admit it. There is a way to test it with two lynches. Is that going to happen? No because you are all focused on the fact that I came up with a theory on who the scum are. Also, almost any lynch besides my own and IDK's will narrow down the possible teams in my mind. After two lynches it will be cut down once again and at that point it should be obvious if my theory is wrong.
If you are wrong, then you will also have blown the mislynches that we can afford by then.
I said 2 lynches and you are telling me that we only have 2 mislynches in the game? How did you get hold of this information?
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Post Post #91 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 10:48 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

Porkens 28 wrote:I actually don't hate Beast's theory, but his denial that it is an attempt at guess-a-modding is a red flag in some ways.
Hey, buddy!

Eh, maybe. I really think he's just pushing a genuine theory though. Also, I don't get the same bad feelings you got from NS.
Porkens 28 wrote:Why do you think this is a scummy assumption to make?
I don't like that he's talking about scum communication. It implies that he has too much knowledge about whether the scum have day talk (or a lackthereof) to me. I wouldn't have even considered the idea of using nodes to talk/not talk between scum.

---
beast 33 wrote:I don't believe the node is a red herring so trying to lynch based off of it is what we are supposed to be doing.
Uh, no. I strongly disagree with this statement.

I think we should lynch based on who is the scummiest, not based on node positions.

---
SC 40 wrote:your insistence on "Hey, scum has to be in these nodes" instead of actually being productive is doing nothing to get us off the ground.
You really think he's hindering the game though, SC? I think he is being productive. He's publicly floating a theory about how the game works and causing discussion. I do not think he's on the right track necessarily, but I certainly don't think he's doing "nothing to get us off the ground".

---
idk 62 wrote:Sns's play looked good up until he said to go back to RVS. Why would we go back to RVS when we already have discussion going on? I've played a few games with sns offsite (with a different username, though, tee hee), so I'm kinda using meta here, as he normally tends to have multiple scumreads and switches between them often. With a couple people he could find suspicious already here, him wanting RVS seems really out of character.
I agree with this.

---
Snarky 65 wrote:So, RedCoyote and tman2nd, why is Aegor a townread of yours?
I think y'all are going to far with this. Our first lynch shouldn't be between Aegor and beast based on this conversation. beast brought up an interesting theory, but I do not think it is how we should go forward today. Aegor successfully articulated why this theory isn't a solid one. They both seemed earnest in their convictions.

---
NS 70 wrote:Scum have a vested interest in misleading the town; if you have information that you know makes this theory of yours wrong, it would be in your interest to push it on the town so they go in the wrong direction.
I like this comment even though I don't agree with NS here. Strange days, NS. I don't think I've ever read you as town in a game before!

---
SC 80 wrote:Classic "back off, I'm town" scum attitude that does us nothing..
I'll admit this is a pretty good point.

---
Snarky 83 wrote:while everything Aegor had done was being on a anti-setup spec campaign against everyone
I don't agree with this, and I don't think Aegor would agree with this characterization either. I don't wish to speak for Aegor, but I would be hardpressed to believe that he absolutely doesn't believe in setup speculation. And I don't know where you get "against everyone" from. That's over-the-top.
Snarky 83 wrote:All others have shown some restraint over the beast setup spec discussion, which is sign of a town mindset.
This implies that I haven't shown restraint over the beast setup speculation discussion. How do you figure that? I've been quite clear in my opinion of what beast has proposed. I do not think it's a reasonable theory to run with. I also do not think he's scummy for proposing it, however.

Are you implying that I shouldn't have mentioned it at all? I don't understand the point you're trying to make here.

---
sns 26 wrote:^this. Not trying to piggyback but I agree.
sns 84 wrote:As for scum, I dont agree with everyone he said but some of them. RedCoyote
So, in spite of the fact that you "agree" with me, you think I'm a valid candidate for scum? :?

You seem very agreeable with most players, as a matter of fact.

---

SC, why did you not address Snarky's ?
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Post Post #92 (ISO) » Sat May 03, 2014 10:50 pm

Post by RedCoyote »

EBWOP: To clarify, I agree with idk's insomuch as I disliked sns's "back to RVS" comment. I do not agree that sns' play looked good up until that point.
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Post Post #93 (ISO) » Sun May 04, 2014 12:14 am

Post by snscompt1 »

I do agree with you and a few others but I have disagreed with many points about Charizard. So Im not just agreeing with everyone. I do however like to keep an open mind. Im typically not very aggressive and thats why ny votes usually change as idk said. Ive already explained about my RVS statement I believe.

And yes, just like how two players can disagree and still see each other as town, I agree with you yet view you as a possible scum candidate.
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Post Post #94 (ISO) » Sun May 04, 2014 12:19 am

Post by RedCoyote »

Fair enough. I like that post, actually. I like that you stood your ground. If you'd have backed off or tried to reinterpret what you said to please me, I'd still be more suspicious of you.

UNVOTE: snscompt1; VOTE: SiX

I don't like either of his posts.
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Post Post #95 (ISO) » Sun May 04, 2014 1:19 am

Post by Nobody Special »

unvote

Vote: RedCoyote


If you defended beast any harder......
....what?



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Post Post #96 (ISO) » Sun May 04, 2014 1:44 am

Post by cxinlee »

In post 94, RedCoyote wrote:Fair enough. I like that post, actually. I like that you stood your ground. If you'd have backed off or tried to reinterpret what you said to please me, I'd still be more suspicious of you.

UNVOTE: snscompt1; VOTE: SiX

I don't like either of his posts.
Could you elaborate? Both of his posts are just fluff so far.
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Post Post #97 (ISO) » Sun May 04, 2014 1:48 am

Post by cxinlee »

Aegor is town for super obvious reasons.

Beast's theory is bad, because there are so many doubts I have about it. As mentioned, maybe a scum that can hit through multiple layers of nodes, or perhaps, like a scum-oriented setup with scum being unable to kill some players to balance things out?

Nevertheless, I feel it was town motivated.
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Post Post #98 (ISO) » Sun May 04, 2014 1:56 am

Post by cxinlee »

I don't like that he's talking about scum communication. It implies that he has too much knowledge about whether the scum have day talk (or a lackthereof) to me. I wouldn't have even considered the idea of using nodes to talk/not talk between scum.
seems like a town slip, because the setup is actually nightless.

~Fixed quote tags.
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Post Post #99 (ISO) » Sun May 04, 2014 4:23 am

Post by StrangerCoug »

In post 90, beastcharizard wrote:
In post 85, StrangerCoug wrote:
In post 82, beastcharizard wrote:If I am wrong I am wrong and I will admit it. There is a way to test it with two lynches. Is that going to happen? No because you are all focused on the fact that I came up with a theory on who the scum are. Also, almost any lynch besides my own and IDK's will narrow down the possible teams in my mind. After two lynches it will be cut down once again and at that point it should be obvious if my theory is wrong.
If you are wrong, then you will also have blown the mislynches that we can afford by then.
I said 2 lynches and you are telling me that we only have 2 mislynches in the game? How did you get hold of this information?
...OK. My math falls apart if we assume 10:3. Two mislynch/NK cycles puts us at 7:3 assuming no vig, so we'd still have a chance then. If we have an SK, however, and that player shoots town every time, we'll be at 3:3:1 if we don't get a crosskill to work for us. We have too many variables going on for me to put faith in your theory.
In post 95, Nobody Special wrote:
unvote

Vote: RedCoyote


If you defended beast any harder......
Explain how what he's doing is a bad thing.
STRANGERCOUG: Stranger Than You!

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