Mini Normal 2159 | Cinder Block Mafia | Game Over!

[Tayl0r Swift]

Panic from both the tayl0r and CFJ slots.

what sort of panic do you think im in? what exactly do you think is causing me to panic?

i have thoughts to share once frogster responds. if i forget to share thoughts, please remind me.

[ItalianoVD]

I think there's a chance that Italiano is confused between the roles "neighbour" and "friendly neighbour"; Italiano has been confirmed to have the first by Walter, and has claimed the second (possibly by mistake). It is possible, even in a Normal, for him to have both. This is why it's important to get a clarification of the claim, because there's a big difference in terms of balance impact and in what we can deduce from Walter's actions.

@

Italiano

: Are you a Friendly Neighbour (can confirm self as town), or just a Neighbour (can talk privately)? If you are a Friendly Neighbour, a) who did you confirm yourself to (knowing this will probably let us confirm you as town), b) did Walter know that prior to the end of Night 1?

Not confused and not a mistake. I have a dual-role.

[WaltertheDunce10]

Walter isn't confirmed even if Italiano is FN. Whether he knew going into the night or night, there are some large conclusions being jumped to, will consolidate my initial day 2 reads when I do some wagon sniffing.

However Nos town from eod (alright felt like this was true but ehh) as well as gerain. My vote on Shelly was kind of an eod prayer since deadline had already passed (even with the 2 hour delay) I threw it on Shelly thinking it probably wouldn't count but hey if it did we get a flip.

Gerain 100% could have just opted not to hammer and had already established he would probably miss eod.

Regardless I think it's an offwagon day. NM looks more like a pr hunt than anything else and should NOT dissuade off wagon hunting.

But RC, why would scum shoot offwagon if they weren't on the Shelly wagon? Well silly little townie, cuz mafia.

Alright.
I agree on the Nm part.

[ItalianoVD]

im concerned because i picked up on the crumb and made an assumption about your role and then hard defended you and walter (especially walter).

I’m confused. What were you expecting? It sounds like you feel you were duped or something.

following that, the pressure on walter disappeared. if theres a possibility that walter could be scum (if most/all of you are in neighborhoods it becomes increasingly likely that at least some of you are in neighborhoods with scum). if the pressure on walter disappeared for bad reasons, then we should look back at day 1 and reconsider whether walter is a good push today.

There are only two people in the neighborhood. The neighborizer can grow the neighborhood but that’s not a role that we can see.

[Tayl0r Swift]

im concerned because i picked up on the crumb and made an assumption about your role and then hard defended you and walter (especially walter).

I’m confused. What were you expecting? It sounds like you feel you were duped or something.

following that, the pressure on walter disappeared. if theres a possibility that walter could be scum (if most/all of you are in neighborhoods it becomes increasingly likely that at least some of you are in neighborhoods with scum). if the pressure on walter disappeared for bad reasons, then we should look back at day 1 and reconsider whether walter is a good push today.

There are only two people in the neighborhood. The neighborizer can grow the neighborhood but that’s not a role that we can see.

well i was expecting you to be masons. or otherwise be sure of each other's role/alignment, since you said you thought walter is town. unless other people claim to be neighbors as well, its probably safe to assume that walter is town (a T-S neighborhood as the only neighborhood would provide a tremendous amount of disutility to town and would probably not be balanced in a normal game without some really strange other roles), but the point of the neighbor role rather than the mason role is that you can potentially be neighbors with scum. so based on the information you had at the time i dont know why you assumed walter was town. but i guess i dont have access to your pt so maybe theres something there.
as for your second point i realize that its only the two of you in that neighborhood, but there could be other neighborhoods, right?

[ItalianoVD]

well i was expecting you to be masons. or otherwise be sure of each other's role/alignment, since you said you thought walter is town. unless other people claim to be neighbors as well, its probably safe to assume that walter is town (a T-S neighborhood as the only neighborhood would provide a tremendous amount of disutility to town and would probably not be balanced in a normal game without some really strange other roles), but the point of the neighbor role rather than the mason role is that you can potentially be neighbors with scum. so based on the information you had at the time i dont know why you assumed walter was town. but i guess i dont have access to your pt so maybe theres something there.

Well I think it’s like Masons on steroids. This makes me think that the scum have some extra special powers or it’s a 9-4 setup like Frogster theorized, otherwise it’d be one or the other but not both.

as for your second point i realize that its only the two of you in that neighborhood, but there could be other neighborhoods, right?

I have no idea, I can only speak for our neighborhood.

[geraintm]

ok, catching up from last night.
1st, there goes my "scum never get lynched day one" theory. next responding to posts

VOTE: CFJ

He tried to pull the BW off shelly yesterday.

this felt aggressive. this just based on yesterday's play? Frogster was one of the early members of the shelly wagon, that is interesting though.

I can’t say I expected that execute flip, or that kill
Maybe I need to reset?

everyone needs to reset after a night

Call for judgement's post.
that wasa very well reasoned post, trying their best to explain their actions from day 1. I'm going to say I think it was almost too well thought out...
but the game I think moves past this with later posts. but this is probably the most interesting post they have made all game, to me at least.

I'm more interested in cfj's theory than I am worried about how he was town reading shelly although I am suspicious of both.

VOTE: Walter

a ton of mud thrown in one short post.

I can’t say I expected that execute flip, or that kill
Maybe I need to reset?

Or we can just vote you off.

pour quoi?

I can’t say I expected that execute flip, or that kill
Maybe I need to reset?

Or we can just vote you off.

I don't understand this. you say the reason scum get lynched day one is due to error or luck, but you toss in a 3rd reason which is scum drove it?

@Taylor: I am scumreading Gamma, just so you know.

why?

frogster 885-888
I find it hard to follow - wagon wasn't scum driven
there are 4 scum
there are 3 scum
CFj/taylor is scum and panicking

ok but do you know each other's roles? because a scum-town neighborhood is definitely a thing

Scum!Walter would have likely NKed the FN. Nobody would know for sure if it was luck or if Walter knew.

UNVOTE:

we are all assuming walter/italiano claims are good I take it. if they are scum, then game is over. [wanted to put this here so I can go "I told you so" at the end of the game]

rcenigma is the only person who analysies the night action. I tend

ok but do you know each other's roles? because a scum-town neighborhood is definitely a thing

Scum!Walter would have likely NKed the FN. Nobody would know for sure if it was luck or if Walter knew.

UNVOTE:

to never try and guess scum kills, at the end of the game I never follow their reasoning in their thread.

at this point it may be helpful for everyone to claim whether or not they are in a neighborhood. no need to claim neighbors, but it would be very helpful for me to understand my role. i can claim/explain everything or at least something based on what people say.

not in a neighbourhood unlike Italiano. Watching to see who else responds to this, as I can't see any other results in response to taylor's plea yet.

I think my aim early in day 2 is to Look at those people who weren't on the shelly wagon and see their relations with that slot.

Sorry if this post doesn't make a lot of sense, there was a lot to come back to this morning.

[callforjudgement]

at this point it may be helpful for everyone to claim whether or not they are in a neighborhood. no need to claim neighbors, but it would be very helpful for me to understand my role. i can claim/explain everything or at least something based on what people say.

I am not in a neighbourhood.

[callforjudgement]

At this point it's very unlikely that Italiano is scum; a Friendly Neighbour claim is hard to substantiate as scum (you have to keep claiming to target your buddies and/or the nightkill), and easy to prove as town (that's literally what the role does, proving itself as town). It would be helpful to verify that the claim has actually been substantiated before day ends, though, otherwise it'll lead us to be paranoid into future days.

If scum knew that Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour, that would make him an obvious nightkill choice. So it's also useful to know whether Walter knew Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour prior to the end of Night 1; if he did, that somewhat reduces the chance that Walter is scum.

@Tayl0r: mods (and playerlists!) differ on how much utility a T/S neighbourhood gives to town and/or scum. Some mods think that such a neighbourhood helps town (you can quiz your neighbour in the PT, figure out they're scum, and sometimes even figure out their buddies by the way they talk over the game with you); I once caught 2 out of 3 members of a scumteam because I was in a neighbourhood with one of them. But recently, players have had a tendency to assume that neighbourhoods are T/T, so some mods/reviewers will balance a T/S neighbourhood as though it helps scum and put in extra town power to compensate.

[Looker]

• Who did ItalianoVD target N1?

---

ok but do you know each other's roles? because a scum-town neighborhood is definitely a thing

Scum!Walter would have likely NKed the FN. Nobody would know for sure if it was luck or if Walter knew.

UNVOTE:

This doesn't make sense to me. How can you assume that Italiano targeted Walter?

But RC, why would scum shoot offwagon if they weren't on the Shelly wagon? Well silly little townie, cuz mafia.

WIFOM, but intriguing.

---

• How many scum does Italiano think were onwagon vs off?

VOTE: WaltertheDunce10

[Raya36]

At this point it's very unlikely that Italiano is scum; a Friendly Neighbour claim is hard to substantiate as scum (you have to keep claiming to target your buddies and/or the nightkill), and easy to prove as town (that's literally what the role does, proving itself as town). It would be helpful to verify that the claim has actually been substantiated before day ends, though, otherwise it'll lead us to be paranoid into future days.

If scum knew that Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour, that would make him an obvious nightkill choice. So it's also useful to know whether Walter knew Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour prior to the end of Night 1; if he did, that somewhat reduces the chance that Walter is scum.

@Tayl0r: mods (and playerlists!) differ on how much utility a T/S neighbourhood gives to town and/or scum. Some mods think that such a neighbourhood helps town (you can quiz your neighbour in the PT, figure out they're scum, and sometimes even figure out their buddies by the way they talk over the game with you); I once caught 2 out of 3 members of a scumteam because I was in a neighbourhood with one of them. But recently, players have had a tendency to assume that neighbourhoods are T/T, so some mods/reviewers will balance a T/S neighbourhood as though it helps scum and put in extra town power to compensate.

This is a good post. I definitely agree we should have the receiver of the FN message claim by the end of the day so we can confirm italiano is town. And it's also important to know if Walter knew about Italiano being the FN.

[Raya36]

• Who did ItalianoVD target N1?

---

ok but do you know each other's roles? because a scum-town neighborhood is definitely a thing

Scum!Walter would have likely NKed the FN. Nobody would know for sure if it was luck or if Walter knew.

UNVOTE:

This doesn't make sense to me. How can you assume that Italiano targeted Walter?

This is on the assumption that Italiano told Walter (since he townread him so strongly). Waiting in confirmation of this.

[RCEnigma]

Since we're making assumptions.

Assumption 1: frog is in a hood
Assumption 2: this game is not 9-4
Assumption 3: I can end this game by day 3 potentially.

I'm a PT cop and have a result on someone that is not frog/walter/Italiano.

[RCEnigma]

at this point it may be helpful for everyone to claim whether or not they are in a neighborhood. no need to claim neighbors, but it would be very helpful for me to understand my role. i can claim/explain everything or at least something based on what people say.

Will wait on this to out it. I have an idea of what Taylor's role is but I'll wait on that as well.

[callforjudgement]

Since we're making assumptions.

Assumption 1: frog is in a hood
Assumption 2: this game is not 9-4
Assumption 3: I can end this game by day 3 potentially.

I'm a PT cop and have a result on someone that is not frog/walter/Italiano.

OK, yes at this point we definitely need a PT massclaim (i.e. everyone claims "I'm in a PT" or "I'm not in a PT". Players with results should keep them hidden until after everyone has confirmed whether they're in a PT or not (and thus would be a miller to a PT cop).

I said this earlier, but just to repeat it: I am not in a private topic.

[RCEnigma]

Player List:
ItalianoVD claims hood
callforjudgement claims no hood
Gamma Emerald
Looker
geraintm
Raya36
Frogsterking
Nosferatu
RCEnigma
Tayl0r Swift
WaltertheDunce10 claims hood

[Raya36]

I am not in a PT

[Frogsterking]

Player List:
ItalianoVD claims hood
callforjudgement claims no hood
Gamma Emerald
Looker
geraintm
Raya36 claims no hood
Frogsterking claims no hood
Nosferatu
RCEnigma
Tayl0r Swift
WaltertheDunce10 claims hood

[Frogsterking]

Panic from both the tayl0r and CFJ slots.

what sort of panic do you think im in? what exactly do you think is causing me to panic?

I don't know the type or cause of what I'm perceiving to be panic, it's just how I would describe the tone of your posts. I'd expect town to be somewhat relieved or even emboldened over the results of the previous night and day alone. Then fmpov Italiano brings even more good news for town with his claim and I didn't read a positive emotional response from you then either.

If there was a scum on the shelly wagon, which I don't believe is necessarily true, based on your D2 opening I think you're the most likely.

At this point in time if the setup is 10-3 I believe the scumteam is Gamma, CFJ and shelly, if the setup is 9-4 I would add you to that list.

[Frogsterking]

Player List:

ItalianoVD claims hood
WaltertheDunce10 claims hood

Gamma Emerald
Tayl0r Swift
Looker
geraintm
RCEnigma
Nosferatu

Raya36 claims no hood
Frogsterking claims no hood
callforjudgement claims no hood

[Frogsterking]

I missed geraintm's claim:

Player List:

ItalianoVD claims hood
WaltertheDunce10 claims hood

Gamma Emerald
Tayl0r Swift
Looker
RCEnigma
Nosferatu

geraintm claims no hood
Raya36 claims no hood
Frogsterking claims no hood
callforjudgement claims no hood

[Frogsterking]

Also I read the rules about setup creation last night and was unclear about setup flavor and roles allowed:

Based on the flavor of the setup and the multi-action rule, providing scum have some special power to offset the power of the friendly town neighborhood instead of being a 9-4, I'd expect arsonist to be a reasonable consideration, providing flavor is allowed to be some kind of clue (making the setup a true "cinder" "block"). However I was unclear if the flavor was allowed to be related to the setup in this way or even if arsonist was allowed in normals.

[callforjudgement]

Arsonist is not a possible role in a Normal. The list of roles which are allowed is on the wiki, at Normal Game. Any roles that aren't listed there cannot be in the setup.

The flavour is not supposed to be related to the setup. (In most Normals, the flavour is designed by the moderator, but the setup is designed by someone else. According to #0, the setup for this one was designed by the backup moderator.)

A Friendly Neighbour Neighbour (with no confirmation about the alignment of their neighbour) isn't all

that

powerful, not to the extent that scum would need unusual powers to offset it. You could put another two roles of equivalent power into the same setup, against a three-Goon team, and the resulting setup would only be slightly townsided.

[geraintm]

frogster already claimed for me
I am not going to start speculating on setup balance, I am bad enough at knowing what roles even do to even start working out how powerful they are and what it means for the scum side.

[WaltertheDunce10]

At this point it's very unlikely that Italiano is scum; a Friendly Neighbour claim is hard to substantiate as scum (you have to keep claiming to target your buddies and/or the nightkill), and easy to prove as town (that's literally what the role does, proving itself as town). It would be helpful to verify that the claim has actually been substantiated before day ends, though, otherwise it'll lead us to be paranoid into future days.

If scum knew that Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour, that would make him an obvious nightkill choice. So it's also useful to know whether Walter knew Italiano was a Friendly Neighbour prior to the end of Night 1; if he did, that somewhat reduces the chance that Walter is scum.

@Tayl0r: mods (and playerlists!) differ on how much utility a T/S neighbourhood gives to town and/or scum. Some mods think that such a neighbourhood helps town (you can quiz your neighbour in the PT, figure out they're scum, and sometimes even figure out their buddies by the way they talk over the game with you); I once caught 2 out of 3 members of a scumteam because I was in a neighbourhood with one of them. But recently, players have had a tendency to assume that neighbourhoods are T/T, so some mods/reviewers will balance a T/S neighbourhood as though it helps scum and put in extra town power to compensate.

This is a good post. I definitely agree we should have the receiver of the FN message claim by the end of the day so we can confirm italiano is town. And it's also important to know if Walter knew about Italiano being the FN.

I did not know about Italiano being the FN prior to N1.
I only knew it when he posted it in thread here.