[REVIEW] Open Setup Reviews

[Empking]

Yogur is cool.
And balanced.
And necessary.

[Empking]

Obviously, they'll be a massclaim but I would not say that it increases town's win rate to unplayable levels. I know I'd play it.

(Also, on the last night (if they follow your plan) the Cops should circle investigate to force the townie kill.)

[Empking]

Yeah Yogur is much more broken than you said. I change my mind.

[Empking]

SCIENCE

is probably unbalanced given we used to run a 2 mafia, 2 Masons, 7/8 Townies variant of Friends and Enemies.

0.4ish EV is hardly imbalanced.

[Empking]

how did you arrive at .4 EV, Emp?

Firstly, I said ish. I wrote down the possibilities that lead to a town win and added them up.

[Empking]

how did you arrive at .4 EV, Emp?

Firstly, I said ish. I wrote down the possibilities that lead to a town win and added them up.

But what assumptions did you make? Because if it were just random lynch then you should have gotten 22.86% EV. Obviously an adjustment needs to be made for the masons, but how did you account for that?

1. If a mason is run up both masons claim.
2. Nobody else claims.
3. Masons automatically claim D2.
4. Scum kill any any claimed masons.

[Empking]

how did you arrive at .4 EV, Emp?

Firstly, I said ish. I wrote down the possibilities that lead to a town win and added them up.

But what assumptions did you make? Because if it were just random lynch then you should have gotten 22.86% EV. Obviously an adjustment needs to be made for the masons, but how did you account for that?

1. If a mason is run up both masons claim.
2. Nobody else claims.
3. Masons automatically claim D2.
4. Scum kill any any claimed masons.

I'm not ready to believe this is an optimal strategy. I'll test it later against:
1. If a Mason is run up, they claim.
2. If scum is run up, they will claim Mason.
3. If scum claims Mason, they will be counterclaimed.
4. A claimed Mason will not be lynched without a counterclaim.
5. A claimed Mason will die during the next Night (or as soon as possible in the case of multiple outed Masons)
6. Scum will not counterclaim Mason unless it would improve their win rate.
7. If there are multiple Masons alive, scum will only counterclaim at LyLo for a 50/50 shot at the win.

wrt 7, I'm pretty sure that that's not the optimum strategy. (2/3 compared to a 1/2 for scum).

In general though, I don't see that strategy you propose do much better then mine (It'll still be what I call 40ish).

[Empking]

Can we just trash the science setup?

It adds nothing unique that friends and enemies doesn't add, and it's far too stupid a setup to argue about this much.

Its F&E, only better.

[Empking]

CES: Were we separated at birth, seriously. Everything he's said this thread has been gold dust.

[Empking]

Zor, you designed the White flag mechanic?

[Empking]

Hoopla: Do players in general of open games have a hatred of pools?

Secondly, do you know anyone who prefers 9p games? If it got to the point where mods only run 9p games then we fet back to the point where a significant number of players aren't catered for. 9p might look similar to 7p but it plays completely differently.

[Empking]

You're honestly saying that you think the leap between 8 and 9 is smaller than 9 and 10?

8>, 2 chances to hit scum.
9< loads of chances to hit scum. In that way they're extremely different. The sense of urgency is diferent.

To be honest an 8p game has a bit of a large D1 for me but its still radically dissimilar to a 9p.

[Empking]

No we're comparing 9p to 10p since that's the guidelines as you presented them. Why is 10p a mid-size set up?

(I also love how in most cases an mid-size game will have three scum when in the set ups you approved that's only true for half.

[Empking]

More and more I think 7Ps just don't really work with a full night kill. It's too powerful.

I tend to agree - it's difficult to create a setup that is fair for the town that doesn't produce an optimal strategy or a boring/formulaic sequence of play. Town has no margin for error in 7p, so they do need a decent amount of power in catching scum and/or narrowing the lynch pool.

I thought they were the same as 9p ones?

[Empking]

Why not just move 4:8 to 4:7 or something like that? It would be a shame to lose what is probably the most important mechanic change from this site.

[Empking]

None of those are proper Nightless.

[Empking]

Yeah well fuck proper, the point is to have a good game.

But Max's ideas weren't really there to get a good game but to rehalibate the nightless mechanic. There's no point trying to rehalibate nightless if you need to gut it to do so.

[Empking]

Tread Carefully seems like a

goofy

awesome novelty setup.

FTFY

[Empking]

What's wrong with Paris?

[Empking]

Why is Tread Carefully still asterisk'd? Its not broken, as far as we're aware its not imbalanced, it is exactly what it says on the tin. If mods want to mod it and players want to play it then surely there's nothing more to say.

Oh yeah, I value this setup highly and want to run it (But if its not allowed in the open set ups I want to get in the MT ASAP.)

[Empking]

Why is Tread Carefully still asterisk'd? Its not broken, as far as we're aware its not imbalanced, it is exactly what it says on the tin. If mods want to mod it and players want to play it then surely there's nothing more to say.

As I said just before, allowing mafia two kills per night (and from one goon) allows them to trade in one goon (or none) for two town players at night, which is a massive advantage in a 4:8 game. If town mislynches D1 and D2, they lose (even if you give town the best case scenario of one goon dying each night). I doubt it's balanced.

The game needs an extra VT and/or (with a preference for "and"), an alteration to the 2 kills per night rule. It's difficult to just change the rule to 1 kill per night, as it makes it a lot more difficult to get rid of PGO's, although there is no way to prove that you are a PGO, so it makes it a viable fakeclaim for scum and town will be forced to lynch PGO's sometimes. 1 kill per night

could

work...

Oh yeah, I value this setup highly and want to run it (But if its not allowed in the open set ups I want to get in the MT ASAP.)

The process I'm going to start using for running a new setup is;

1. Get it approved here
2. You (or another "experienced" mod) signup to run it in the Open Queue
3. If it goes well and people like it, it can be considered for regular rotation like the other games

So, if you have serious intentions of running it soon, I'll review it for you here.

Yesv I have serious intentions of running it soon.

[Empking]

Yesv I have serious intentions of running it soon.

In theory I don't have that any problems with letting this game run. It looks like it suffers similar problems as the 6P Lovers setup, though. Every town player needs to be correct and vote together to lynch a scum (assuming scum don't bus) - that's an awfully difficult prospect on D1 with no information. Getting

two

correct lynches requiring every townie to be right is going to be even harder, don't you think?

I think it'd be rather difficult to get three people not voting one another without making it rather obvious.

[Empking]

http://mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Less_Pressure