Open 421-Pamplona II: Electric Bullgaloo! Game over

[DLG]

VOTE: Greywing
for

always

drawing scum.

Did the streak continue this game?

[DLG]

Definitely.

Damn shame, that. We'll have to put that lynch-proof thing to the test, though.

VOTE: mcstab

Last to confirm, die scum!

This looks like the closest thing to something worth voting for. Let's make it a wagon.

UNVOTE: Greywing
VOTE: McStab

[DLG]

@ JohnnyFarrar
Hey, there. Good times, man, good times.

@ inte
Why try to disguise that third vote as RVS? Seems like a scummy way to go about things.

@ Bitmap
See above, but worse for being fourth.

What's scummy about me wanting a wagon on a player that hadn't posted?

My post was there for you to see. Explain how you could, at the same time, join the wagon I called for, and call it scummy

after

andrew94 expressed some problem with my post.

@ McStab
The absence of a reaction to the votes on you seems positive, but a couple of content things have happened. Why go with continuing RVS?

inconsistant

?

UNVOTE: McStab
VOTE: Bitmap

[DLG]

Of course, I'll do my best to catch scums here as I usually do with my limited skills.
Can't let them Scums win this one, eh?

So, who's scum and why?

Ya you're right. UNVOTE: VOTE: rachmarie, beause you're piggy backing and wrote two paragraphs to defend what still amounts to a RV

This seems reasonable. But, what prompted you to point this out? What changed between here and here?

VOTE: Andrew94
Because "bandwagon his ass" is not a legit reason for a vote.

What's scummy about it? To me, andrew94's vote is a slight Town-tell

@ Bitmap

Answer these questions in your next post.

@ Bitmap
See above, but worse for being fourth.

What's scummy about me wanting a wagon on a player that hadn't posted?

My post was there for you to see. Explain how you could, at the same time, join the wagon I called for, and call it scummy after andrew94 expressed some problem with my post.

@ inte

I'd like an answer to my question to you in post 20, as well.

Also, is your implication simply that Greywing and RachMarie are sheeping?

[DLG]

@ drmyshotgun

Well, since I'm voting Bitmap based on what appears to be scummy play on his part, I'm gonna guess that I think Bitmap is scum for the reasons pointed out in my posts. You should read thoroughly before getting confrotational. Otherwise, you just look foolish.

My point was, if you're going to give a "GO TOWN, I'M GOING TO GIVE MY ALL" speech, you should back it up with play. You do know that reads and opinions are not set in stone, right?

Do you believe in your vote at this time? If so, why?

I was truly confused by your up arrow designation in your first post. But, I think you meant that to refer to inte's Post 49. Is that correct?

[DLG]

@ drmyshotgun

Because, you're the one who posted it and no one else did?

I mean, actions should match posts, right? I don't subscribe to the theory that posts have no intentions.

I'm always interested in how/when/why players vote. Please answer my questions about your vote.

[DLG]

Just read Meta's quote in Gunny's sig. You'll understand.

Hey, so, how about a Policy Lynch on drmyshotgun? Ya know, to avoid the inevitable heartburn?

That isn't an entirely facetious comment. I abhor trying to separate derp from scum. Still, I think I'm leaning more towards Town on drmyshotgun. The back and forth with Greywing where he admits he was mistaken just seems more like a Town back-off than a scum retraction.

You got any kind of thoughts on Bitmap currently?

[DLG]

Well, don't I need to know what posts you are mentioning? Maybe next time you could quote or say the post numbers so I can at least know what I'm defending against?

Seriously, how many posts had you made at that time? That's a pro forma defense that is not really applicable, here. It's scummy.

2. I honestly didn't know it was role-fishing. Lol. I just thought it was kind of scummy that you would make a bandwagon this early.

Hey, um, could you point me to where anyone accused you of role-fishing? I don't see that anywhere, and this kind of distortion is scummy.

Where did I say that?

I'm lost. Where's the second scrummy post?

I don't know what to make of this. I'm unsure if

anyone

could be this unaware of their own posts.

I found it ironic him saying "I don't trust you" with his avatar being trust itself. Lol.

Were you unaware that yours was the fourth vote on McStab?

I just thought it was scummy for you to do that this early.

But, why? I mean, I know exactly what I was doing. I want to know why you considered it scummy.

Pedit:
Some of this was already addressed by Greywing.

[DLG]

@ inte
I'd like an answer to my question to you in post 20, as well.

Also, is your implication simply that Greywing and RachMarie are sheeping?

I want an answer to these. There's a fine line between being audaciously contrary, and just ignoring things until they become dated.

yes, lets hear some thoughts on Bitmap

Including yours, please.

[DLG]

And it seemed scummy since it was a really early wagon on page 1.

This is going to devolve into a theory deabte. I'm not interested. I don't think wagons are inherently scummy. I think they are inherently Town beneficial.

Please address my other concerns/questions.

[DLG]

The problem with inte is that he never actually "actively" helps the town. His posts are extremely short and you can never get a good read. He reminds me of roflcopter.

Are you an alt? Your join date doesn't seem to support this kind of reference. I don't even care if you out yourself, but that might be helpful.

I aknowledge that you've supplied answers to my questions, but I'm unimpressed that so much is being cast off to "mistakes".

The fourth vote on the McStab wagon, the role-fishing versus reaction fishing.

Either way, I'm not going to convince you that you got a scum role PM. Time for others to weigh in. My conclusion is that you're scum.

[DLG]

Eh, that's tough, because I don't really like looking for connections pre-flip.

But, if you were mod-confirmed Town at this instant, I'd look at Greywing and RachMarie, for the sheeping of my attack on you. McStab's vote didn't seem particularly scummy, and I really do like andrew94's vote.

Still want an answer from Hyperion about that, but he hasn't posted, yet.

If you were mod-confirmed scum at this instant, I'm going to defer on answering, because I have outstanding questions that could impact those reads.

Assuming you're Town, for a minute, who's scum on your wagon? Or, anywhere else?

I'm out for the night. Be back around tomorrow.

[DLG]

You are really supporting THIS post out of all the other votes on me? Are you serious? Rach at least gave 2 paragraphs explaining her argument to why I possibly might be scum. Grey pointed out that your post is reaction-fishing me. However, you support the guy who posts NO reason to why he voted for me besides "Hurrr durr I'ma bandwagon like a tard."

Oh, I'm so glad I hadn't logged out, yet. This is too rich.

Re-read me and Greywing. His point, which was correct, is that I was looking for reactions from McStab, not you.

There is fundamentally no difference between my vote on McStab and calling for a wagon and andrew94 voting you. Both are about ramping up pressure to look for reactions. andrew94 didn't feel any need to disguise his vote. Note the difference between "bandwagon his ass" and "lynch his ass".

I suppose you're gonna try to dismiss this as just another "mistake". Take your OMGUS vote and shove it down your scummy throat.

[DLG]

Sure, DLG. I go to all that effort ripping him apart, and you post it before me .

Heh, timing. It's one reason why I think sheeping accusations are not incredibly reliable. Even when the timeframe is larger, a player who posts less often can be caught by having to say the same things others have already posted.

No it doesnt? Town and scum would both do this as a third vote on a wagon. Its another RV from me;

cleverly hidden

by OMGUS.

Noted. Like I said, how/when/why on votes matters.

Also, I noticed something. DLG and Greywing have been tunneling me really hard lately. And the fact that you two don't mind working together to get rid of me ticks that you two might know more than us. I mean as town, you wouldn't buddy/buddy so easily there.

I'm fairly content with my vote and you can shove that OMGUS claim up your scum butthole.

You're right. The OMGUS accusation was inaccurate.

I'll bullet the basics from my point of view later today.

That tunneling thing, though, I have issues with. Mostly because it's untrue. Also, pressure is not tunneling and resorting to that kind of defense seems weak.

[DLG]

Here's the basic points against Bitmap. I don't think anything has really gone unanswered, I just don't buy the answers given.

• Contradiction between adding a fourth vote to the early wagon on McStab and simultaneously casting suspicion that calling for an early wagon is scummy.
  
• Making that fourth vote as another RVS vote. This indicates a desire to not be held accountable for the vote.
  
• Pro forma defenses that aren't really applicable.
  

  Maybe next time you could quote or say the post numbers so I can at least know what I'm defending against?

  
  Three posts by Bitmap at that time, and two were called out as scummy.
  

  DLG and Greywing have been tunneling me really hard lately

  
  Not true. I haven't neglected paying attention to other players, nor is applying pressure the same thing as tunneling.
  
  
• The misrep with respect to who was originally being pressured as part of the justification for voting me.
  

  Grey pointed out that your post is reaction-fishing me.

  
  This isn't true. While I could understand someone on the outside of this debate getting confused over the references, it was an integral part of the back and forth between me and Bitmap. I'm not sure how he could make that mistake legitimately.

Pedit: I'll get to the newer posts in a bit.

[DLG]

And @DLG: I know you said yo asked a question, but I can't find it what was it?

VOTE: Andrew94
Because "bandwagon his ass" is not a legit reason for a vote.

What's scummy about it? To me, andrew94's vote is a slight Town-tell

I wanted to know what scum motivation you assigned to andrew94's vote. Also, now, what changed? You seem to have dropped this line of inquiry in favor of something else.

And, do you have any kind of opinion on Bitmap?

Hi, everyone!

Howdy.

andrew94's vote is something of a bone of contention. You're not him, obviously, but I'd like to know if you support the vote. Not the style of it, the target.

@ Nobody Special:
I'll be V/LA until Sunday evening

~~Noted.

[DLG]

I'm back, and have had a once through on things since I left.

Too much to digest at once. I'll read it again and try to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

A couple of impressions is that Bitmap is trying to do some scumhunting while under duress. That's generally a strong Town indication, for me.

UNVOTE: Bitmap

Also. it seems like the inte/BK201 dust-up revealed inte as more focused on BK201 as potential scum and BK201 as more interested in inte being dislikable.

The Greywing and RachMarie votes on inte looked weird. Like they were capitalizing on this strange inte-hate that brewed up. What was that all about, anyway?

[DLG]

@ Bitmap
Do you have any idea why your # 271 looks extremely scummy?

@DLG: Do you think Greywing is scummy and bandwagoning? Do you understand the whole policy lynch he has made? What do you think of his current vote on me? Do you think I was wrong to call it an OMGUS? Is it scummy for someone to research someone's past game and analyze behavior as a factor for alignment?

I haven't considered anything from Greywing scummy with the sole exception of the inte situation. I'm reviewing that whole thing to see what I can make of it.

Greywing's current vote on you was not OMGUS, and I think you were wrong to label it so. Meta research is not scummy. It kind of shows a Town mindset in that the researcher appears to be trying to figure things out. However, what you did was scummy for a specific reason. See my question to you above.

This is SO scummy. So nonchalant. So non-townie.

Is nonchalant scummy?
What was "non-townie" about Bitmap's post?

Actually I am torn between Greywing and Bitmap. Bitmap wagon seems better, but maybe they are scums together anyway.

What seemed better about the Bitmap wagon?

[DLG]

There seems to be a bunch of meta arguments as opposed to focusing on actual scumminess within this game. Personally, I think meta is abusable and of little use as a scum-hunting tool, but whatever.

I feel like I've missed something and plan to re-read the game to see what.

I want answers from Near because I think the espoused reason for voting Bitmap doesn't make sense. It feels like a scummy attempt to provide "original reasoning" and not be accused of sheeping.

VOTE: Near

[DLG]

@ inte
Do you get any sense of Bitmap buddying/whiteknighting you?

@ Bitmap
What do you think of Near's vote on you? You've been fairly vocal about seeing others voting you being scum. But, no comment on Near?

@ RachMarie
Who's scum? Why? There's a dearth of scumhunting in your posts. This fluff posting without contribution is scummy.

Near needs votes, now.

Other acceptable votes are RachMarie and Bitmap.

Upon re-read, I wonder if I'm falling prey to thinking Bitmap is just too scummy to be scum. There's so much that is scummy in his posts.

@ Greywing
I don't see how inte attacking BK201 over BK201's L-1 vote on Bitmap is a distraction or anti-Town. What were you seeing, there?

[DLG]

What?? DLG, I didn't provide ANY reason why I was voting for bitmap. I just said Bitmap or Greywing..........

Discuss what you are talking about.

This is SO scummy. So nonchalant. So non-townie.

That was your supposed reason for voting Bitmap. I'll ask again.

What was scummy about Bitmap's question of Greywing for unvoting him?
Is nonchalant scummy? How?
Why'd you rate the Bitmap wagon as better?

There was a point where the focus wasn't on his alignment or his reads, it was on his attitude, and his general play was pissing me off. Admittedly, he's improved quite a bit since, and I'm getting Town vibes from him so I don't want to see him lynched now.

I read it all after the fact, and wasn't in the heat of it. Maybe my reaction would've been different, otherwise.

[DLG]

Hmmm, the fresh eyes from Rainbowdash may be on to something. I haven't traced all the argument. I don't have time tonight.

I still want answers from Near. If I'm misunderstanding something I want to know what it is. All I'm seeing is Near avoided all the early game Bitmap stuff and the inte/BK201 stuff. Then, when prodded, showed up and said that the two big suspeccts of the moment were scummy and "hurr, durr, they're prolly buddies, I'mma vote on the wagon which has the best chance of resurging". Then, tried to LOL his way out of any accountability.

Yeah, scum. Why isn't he getting voted?

@ drmyshotgun
I'm pretty interested in your Town read on Near. Is it just the out of the blue, unsupported Town reads that make you think he's town?

@ Rainbowdash
I'll review your case against DoubleJD and his responses tomorrow. You got any kind of read on Near?

There's too much flat lurking going on. Not everyone can be scum, I guess, but it sure feels that way.

[DLG]

I'll be back around Sunday.

Taking my wife to see Stevie Nicks and Rod Stewart.

[DLG]

Alright, I'm back.

The hypothetical hider target thing is obivously good. My target is UberNinja.

Seems like mass-claim is gonna happen. We'll deal with any information revealed, then. No matter what, we still lynch the scummiest player that isn't confirmed Town. If there's solid reason from mass-claim to identify someone as scum, great.

@ Near
What happened? No answers? Just because it's kind of dated, and there's now a big dust-cloud of mass-claim debate, doesn't make your play earlier any less scummy. Ignoring it, hoping it just gets lost in the shuffle is scummy.

How is arguing the theory of whether, or not, to mass-claim helping catch scum? I mean, I understand how scum love the camouflage of Townieness that arguing theory provides.

If I'm wrong, set me straight.

I don't even know how to process Bitmap. The accumulation of scummy looking mistakes, topped off by the mislynch potential slip is overwhelming.

I believe Near is scum, but scum!Bitmap virtually confirms Near as Town. Scum!Near doesn't say much with respect to Bitmap. Near's conclusion of "mebbe Greywing and Bitmap are buddies" looks very weird. If Near is scum, Greywing or Bitmap come under scrutiny from a connection standpoint.

[DLG]

Although, reading the rest of the post I guess you were referring to my "non-chalant" post.

Yep, that was right.

At the time, Bitmap was being pressured by many players, including Gerywing. So when Greywing unvoted for him, Bitmap's question asking why Greywing unvoted seemed liked Bitmap was controlling his emotions. Both scums and townies obviously would be relieved to see people unvoting them, but scums would be inhibited to express their relief. Instead, they are likely to use the "unvoting" event to further establish their "pro-townness" by flaunting their fake suspicions of exact players who unvoted them.

The big problem I have with this is that it relies on a picture of scum!Bitmap that doesn't seem realistic. The basic case for scum!Bitmap revolves around him being careless and easy to spot. It doesn't seem to me that a player that can be caught so easily is likely to intentionally react that way.

I think Rainbowdash is right, if Bitmap flips scum. Lucky reactions that looked very Townie. That single event may be the only reason Bitmap hasn't been lynched.

In regards to Greywing, it seems to me that Geywing was getting some backlash over the inte thing, and Bitmap has been a constant suspect for the bulk of the Day. For you to pop in and voice suspicion of them seemed awful convenient. I guess I don't see how posting that to generate reactions makes any sense. And, as stated by DoubleJD, there's no follow-up. Just looks like an excuse.

@ Rainbowdash
There's a difference between saying, "Bad idea, but let's do it for kicks", and taking a solid stance against the idea. The first creates a way for Near to look Townie, but not have to really fight the momentum. It's also a nice place from which to contribute while not having to do any scumhunting.

Playing for funsies isn't scummy, by itself. But, the in-between position isn't sitting right with me.

Consider Near's reasoning behind why Bitmap could be scum. That demonstrates an understanding level from Near that would make this kind of play possible, even likely.

[DLG]

So, this is happening now?

Hope it helps.

Claim: VT

Popcorn to Near. I want him on record.

[DLG]

@ UberNinja
What do you think about Near? I'll re-read BK201, because I remember thinking the inte/BK201 dust-up showed inte as pretty likely Town.

@ inte
Did you ever give a read on Near?

I feel like either I'm way off base on Near, and it's so obvious scum don't even want to jump aboard, or I'm right and just not making the point very well.

If we go forth with the mass-claim, I'll be around tomorrow evening (EST), but don't think that really matters. Only the claimed non-VT's need to be involved, right?

And, well, I just can't resolve Near's attempts to make this difficult for scum to play to their advantage as a scum move. So, that pretty much leaves me lost.

[DLG]

UNVOTE: Near
I can follow how the second Doc claim means a high likelihood that I was wrong.

If all 7 PR claims are true, then there's three scum among {UberNinja, BK201, Greywing, Rainbowdash, RachMarie}. I just don't see that.

That means at least one of the PR claims is a lie.

Of all of them, inte's is certainly weirdest. It doesn't make any sense to forget your Role PM as Town. Especially a PR. Also, inte's vote on JohnnyFarrar makes very little sense. Leaving it there, now, makes even less sense.

I'm comfortable with this lynch.

VOTE: inte

[DLG]

You missed the point. Im calling him scummy for that reasoning

Why? Because you extended a line of reasoning I started?

When I left the thread last night, I was pretty comfortable with Town!inte based on the BK201 interactions. When I came back today, I read through multiple pages of claims and associated analyses from them. The biggest red flag came from inte's change of claim.

So, because I originally thought inte was Town, I asked myself what it would mean for all 7 claims to actually be true. I came to a conclusion that didn't make sense to me. I weighed the two options and decided to throw whatever weight I carry into resolving the question of inte's claim.

You came in and made your argument from the other angle, which I might or might not have ever considered, but hadn't thought about at that point.

I don't really know what else to do besides post my thougths and try to find and lynch scum.

Did you read my posts about BK?

Yes. I can see where you're coming from, but answer me this question.

What was the impact of BK201's L-1 vote on Bitmap?

DLG u scum bro?

Nope. Are you, or am I just all fucking wrong like with Near? I'll read over that link of yours, but I don't know that doing it once means I believe you'd do it again. At best it would make it null.

What was up with you voting JohnnyFarrar? I can't get to why, as Town, you'd do that. And, are you just leaving your vote parked there because he's not going to get lynched?

@DGL - Here is my biggest fear about inte-scum. Tomorrow we get a claim of some town PR is scum, and he basically gets a free mislynch. He basically gets a free pass to get any mislynch he wants as scum. When his play doesnt at all match up with a PR let alone a tracker, I think he is scum.

Yeah, I get that. It would explain what scum motivation there is behind being so ostentatious with the changed claim.

[DLG]

the massclaim was just starting after i voted and i didn't see the urgency in unvoting or whatever

My problem is that your vote, now, isn't tracking with your convictions in the same way it seemed to earlier.

No sense looking for mud on JohnnyFarrar since we agree about him being likely Town as the only JK claim.

[DLG]

Will post tomorrow.

Busy day and a summer cold.

[DLG]

Did you read my posts about BK?

Yes. I can see where you're coming from, but answer me this question.

What was the impact of BK201's L-1 vote on Bitmap?

I want this answered, UberNinja.

Also, why did you ignore this at the end of Day 1?

DJD wouldn't have hid behind

anyone

.
He wouldn't have used Random.org to choose his hiding target.
He would have done something useful to Town.
He would have hid behind RBD to give us a great asset.
Confirmed Town that has skills and brains to match his status.
Plenty of Docs, so confirming RBD would have done so much for us.
RBD is an ideal Hiding target. VERY IDEAL.

This looks like a theory to support a conclusion you want to be true, as opposed to evidence that points to a conclusion. I mean,

you

were part of the inte lynch weren't you? It's like you want to blame Rainbowdash for something you were involved in turning out bad.

If we were looking for alternatives to believing DoubleJD used Random.org to choose his target, why not go with this?

I like the hypo hide thing, and am further placing u

(Rainbowdash)

in my town camp. Cover for hiders is awesome, and all u other people should do it too. If im a hider, ill hide behind Greywing.

That would implicate Greywing, correct?

or

My main argument for bk came after i voted him. Beforehand i was just getting him to talk. He responds to the vote the same day, after being absent for 2days, and immediately votes bitmap to put him at L-1 one. He does this for pressure reasons, becasue bitmap wasnt already flailing about and responding to every post about him. He liked the response of two one liner posts enough to completely change his opinion on him and unvote just 2 hours later. The unvote itself was after several posts of "woah wtf bk" by inte, greywing, and shotty. He wasnt prepared to defend the vote, because i think he didnt have a reason at all, and backed off.

That would implicate BK201, correct?

inte had confrontations with both Greywing and BK201. Seems like DoubleJD might have intentionally chosen either of them to hide behind if he chagned his mind. Why not offer those as alternatives to believing DoubleJD simply did what he said and used Random.org?

My point is that either of those

could

explain DoubleJD's possible actions at least as well as your Rainbowdash theory. That doesn't make them true. I don't see any reason to believe anything other than DoubleJD did what he last said he'd do.

Do you have any other reason to believe Rainbowdash is scum? Thing is, I've got her in my Town reads pile along with you. If I'm wrong about her, show me where and how.

I also found it odd that DLG took his vote off me while the wagon was at its peak that day. It's something we should look into.

I'm back, and have had a once through on things since I left.

Too much to digest at once. I'll read it again and try to sort out the wheat from the chaff.

A couple of impressions is that Bitmap is trying to do some scumhunting while under duress. That's generally a strong Town indication, for me.

UNVOTE: Bitmap

Welp, except for the fact that your wagon wasn't at it's peak and that I thought I had good reason to remove my vote from you, this is a great thing to look into.

I give up on trying to read you. You're unimaginably scummy, with a dose of ultra-Town thrown in for spice. Under different circumstances I'd be willing to do most anything to get you lynched. Not an option for this Day. But, understand, if future information indicates you are likely scum, you will die.

VOTE: BK201

Among the VT claims, this is where I'm most uncomfortable. I do not believe that BK201 would have found inte scummy if inte hadn't pounced on BK201 over the Bitmap L-1 vote. I also really distrust attacks that are geared around Player X is unlikeable, let's get 'em. I believe the vote to replace thing was a cornerstone of that approach. It was an interim position that protected BK201 from having to offer a real opinion of inte's slot.

[DLG]

^ Uh hello. I didn't even vote Inte.

I was still deciding whether or not his story was bs.

I did confront him with how it looked like he wasn't THINKING like a tracker though. His play was legitimately shitty.

I'm confused. I'm talking about the early fight between you and inte. You most certainly did vote for him, then. For what appeared to me to be because he wouldn't relent on you.

Later in the Day, I agree you weren't on his lynch. Which causes me even more concern that you were willing to harrass him, but wanted to avoid actually being on his lynch wagon.

What was the reason you weren't actually voting for him? Did you think his botched claim made him likely scum, at that time? Or, did you just think it was shitty play from a Townie?

[DLG]

"I was still deciding whether or not his story was bs."

Hmmm, this is just going to have to be something for everyone else to consider and decide on. There doesn't seem to be any definitive way to settle this.

But, that doesn't answer for the early Day 1 fight. Why are you avoiding

that

and trying to shift focus onto late Day stuff?

Reactions. Bitmap and Greywing, specifically.

Here's what I'm getting at. BK201's vote on Bitmap destroyed that wagon. If you believe BK201 is scum, why would he blow-up a wagon on Town!Bitmap like that?

If it was posted between my final post and inte's lynch, it was because I was not around.

Sarcastic deflection noted. It wasn't. Now, why did you ignore it?

[DLG]

UNVOTE: BK201
I need to reassess, and maybe have my head examined.

[DLG]

Time is not a luxury I possess. Hopefully this weekend I can find time to make sense of this game.

I definitely support putting the brakes on the Greywing run-up. This may well be a great lynch, but rushing through seems less than optimal.