The Wire, Season 1 - Final Credits!

[sottyrulez]

Vote: McStab

[sottyrulez]

Sottyrulez eh? I take it Zach/Sotty hydra as opposed to just Sotty which is listed?

Go read the playerlist in the OP again.

[sottyrulez]

Vote: jason

This is good shit right here. Mofo gets real tight and scared and shit, tellin' ya he's hiding wires.

Jason is town. Try again.

Unvore, Vote: TheGreatestAmericanHero

I'm seeing a lot of busy body questions while they still have the random vote in play. Looks fake.

With this hydra you'll get Zach mostly posting in the day and me mostly during the night, simply because I work all day with no interwebs. Zach never signs his posts, I try to remember as much as possible.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

Unvote, vote: Shadoweh

How to Win At Mafia, Empire-style:

1) Read Shadoweh's #79 and #86
2) Realize that they are both full of shallow, fake scumhunting complete with a shitty attack on Benmage and a question to Arthur that reads like she's more interested in swaying his vote than actually interested in his thoughts.
3) Vote Shadoweh for mafia 2013
4) Townread Empire (optional, but recommended)

79 isn't scummy. 86 is a little I guess, but meh. Thoughts on our vote?

Mass claiming

anything

is not happening on day one.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Sottyrulez eh? I take it Zach/Sotty hydra as opposed to just Sotty which is listed?

Go read the playerlist in the OP again.

He did:

If you read even only to page 2 in his direct response to us, you'll see that my response was not incorrect. Is there a purpose to bringing this up again? If there is I can't see one.

[sottyrulez]

How the hell do you have a town read on BabySpice?
-Explanation please.

This.

I find post 125 pretty scummy. Just the support of both of the underwhelming Nostredeus and Shadow wagons is all kinds of blegh.

I could also be swayed into safety dance, who is currently pinging as our second scum read.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

@Sotty:

Where is Zach and why hasn't he been posting that much?

(Yes, this deserved a giant bold header.)

~~

I have some weaker townreads I'm not ready to talk about yet because I get the impression that a lot of people are struggling getting reads this game and I don't want to ease people into the game. I think our scumreads at this point are pretty well stated and both of us agree on the Jason vote. SafetyDance is not a bad vote either though. I'm kind of eh on McStab, I think his attack on Nostredeus is pretty shitty and applies too high of a standard for him regarding his level of competence. Not sure if it's scum motivated, though, need to see more from him.

Zach's car broke down on Tuesday, and Zach has been preoccupied with all the scrambling that entails getting another one.

On that note

we are going to be V/LA through the weekend.

Jason is town btw. He's being ridiculously silly in his actions this game. That is town Jason to a T. (Sotty and I are both confident in stating this so I'm confident in the read.)

[sottyrulez]

how is he being "silly" aside from that dumb 'gambit'

The 'gambit' is actually the biggest indicator he's town to us.

[sottyrulez]

Safety being run up? We'll take a piece of that.

Vote: SafeyDance

(Real post tonight once we hopefully buy our new car)

[sottyrulez]

Okay so I am caught up. Liking the SafetyDance vote mostly because of his posturing and dismissive tone when it comes to a lot of the pressure. Also he brings up winning the recent vig4all? I don't really like that at all. I know Zach played in that game so when he wakes up I'll ask him about it, but right now, blegh.

CDB feels town to me. I remember him not enjoying scum and his posts here have been mostly good. benmage is feeling kinda town too, I like his push on Peta and might be down for a vote there if it wasn't for Post 378 which is an excellent point about Safety.

Jason is still town. I have known the guy for 8 years just about, played mafia with him on and off the last three or four years? I forget. But Zach and myself are pretty great when it comes to reading the Jason slot and we both feel Jason Town right now. He does dumb things like tunnel on the wrong people (vifam) all the time as town. There are only two people I am happy in just straight up reading and that's Zach and Jason. So yeah, that's where I'm at with that. If any of you Jason voters want to show me something in his meta to provoe me wrong then go ahead. Right now I'm just not seeing it.

Ironic or not, I don't really like any of the other hydras. TGAH I have already gone into and they are a strong scum read of mine. But the other two Plessiezarus and Cerulean both feel fake when I read their posts. It's more of a gut feeling too right now, I will have to recheck ISOs but something is bubbling there. I'm pretty sure I read Cerulean defending Plees from Camn too which makes me urk. But I will look back again later.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Ironic or not, I don't really like any of the other hydras. TGAH I have already gone into and they are a strong scum read of mine. But the other two Plessiezarus and Cerulean both feel fake when I read their posts. It's more of a gut feeling too right now, I will have to recheck ISOs but something is bubbling there. I'm pretty sure I read Cerulean defending Plees from Camn too which makes me urk. But I will look back again later.

~Sotty

So you have a scum read on Cerulean because they might have defended Plessie, who you have a scum read on because
I remember that Zach has a meta of phoning it in on scum games because he hates them. Incidentally, Cerulean asked where Zach was and now you think they are fake for poor reasons. You cited irl as why he's not posting but in my experience IRL excuses doubly come into play when you're scum and really just don't want to post. Do you think TGAH is scummier then SafetyDance and do you really think that a derp thing like 'i won ebanowoof' is something scum would say and expect to get away with?

(this is highly hypocritical right now seeing as irl is keeping me from posting alot but I'm trying to get this out there)

You're free to think what you want of course, but I just got done with probably one of the worst weeks of my life in a long time, and a mafia game wasn't exactly something I had high on the list of things I cared about.

Cerulean pushing on it feels more townish to me actually.

Sotty can explain her rationale on suspicions, while I'll just say that as of page 13ish or so that I'm most suspicious of SafetyDance's play. (I haven't gotten to the safetydance on ebanowoof or whatever it is you're mentioning here, but I'll get back to it once I catch up.)

[sottyrulez]

Gah I forgot peta voted you... his vote sucks/vifs blew.

At least there is balance.


Poked my head into some Vifam games, and this looks like scumfam. TownFam posts content and not do many crappy one liners.

Can you show your work here? (Preferably citing a source.)

[sottyrulez]

Jason is still town. I have known the guy for 8 years just about, played mafia with him on and off the last three or four years? I forget. But Zach and myself are pretty great when it comes to reading the Jason slot and we both feel Jason Town right now. He does dumb things like tunnel on the wrong people (vifam) all the time as town. There are only two people I am happy in just straight up reading and that's Zach and Jason. So yeah, that's where I'm at with that. If any of you Jason voters want to show me something in his meta to provoe me wrong then go ahead. Right now I'm just not seeing it.

Him attacking "the wrong people" is not even remotely the issue we have with him. It's the fact that he's attacking Arthur and Vifam for their playstyles rather than anything alignment indicative and there's just an overall lack of substance coming from him (#122 still being the most egregious example). A lot of his posts read like they just exist to make him seem like he's contributing when he's really not. Also, just telling us to trust you isn't going to do much when you're not doing much to highlight the difference between his town play and his scum play. What's the difference between the two and how exactly is he playing like his town self? (For what it's worth, Tammy told me she feels like he's playing more like in TM 2012 Closed Normal where they were scum buddies than in Harry Potter. Tammy can probably elaborate on this better when she comes back, though.)

Yeah, your complaints about his play pretty much hit all the markers that indicate he's town. He's notoriously bad with reads and arguments as town. It's actually when he's scum that he will come across more level headed and seem to be making more reasonable arguments. It's precisely because when he's scum he's more interested in trying to fit in vs when he's town and actually interested in finding scum that he tries so hard that he tries to make square pegs fit into circular holes.

American Hero: Why do you think sotty would defend their buddy Jason so hard?

I don’t know. It could be a small scum team, Jason could be a scum PR, or a few other reasons that I can’t think of right now. That doesn’t negate the point that they –are- defending Jason. Nor are they touching the main issue of why Jason is scum. Instead they are labeling Jason as town due to his gambit and tunneling on Vifam.

Sotty, would you respond to 304 and give your thoughts on that and how it affects your read on Jason? Would you also address Jason’s scumread on Dayne?

I’m going to catch up with everything, hopefully, before I head out to work today. If there is anything that people would specifically like me to address please let me know.

Unless you're going to make an argument that SafteyDance necessarily has a similar meta to Jason, I don't see how 304 should affect my read on Jason at all. (Jason has a pretty distinctive town playstyle consisting of things I would find scummy out of almost any other player.)

What do you want me to say about his scumread on Dayne? I don't agree with it.

[sottyrulez]

Follow up @ response to Cerulean. I am going to just admit that I need to read Jason's scum game from team mafia, because you know... he was scum in that game so I wasn't particularly all that interested in it for that reason.

[sottyrulez]

Camn

I'm pretty sure I read Cerulean defending Plees from Camn too which makes me urk. But I will look back again later.

I missed this- I would love to see it, if you can point it out.

I'm talking about this right here. Seems out of left field to me. The whole post is awkward.

Gonna check (skim?) some of the hydra ISOs to see if my gut rumbles amount to anything or if it something to ignore for now. While I do that, I'm still a days posting behind.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

Short post short till I get off this afternoon.

Waiting on rofl to get back to me, if no response by then our vote will be moving to Jason. sotty can go next. Their 452 doesn't address the main issue for us of why Jason is likely scum (Jason pushing this crap that Dayne is scum because his RPing is "scum trying hard to fit in".

Sorry dude, Jason is town, you're not. Sucks, I know but dems the breaks.

Not a fan of Sotty's reads so I don't know how much I'm willing to trust his unwavering Jason gutread. Can you actually point to specific parts of his posts that make you think town?

It's gut so no. I already detailed it a little with the tunneling, Jason is over eager as town. He gets on his high horse and casts down suspicions as if posting was black and white. With players he doesn't know he tries to make them fit into his box of right and wrong (see: Vifam). Other things are there too, posting tone a big one. But like I said it is pretty much all gut and experience. I can't translate to you if you don't have the same experience I do. I do know an easy wagon when I see one though, that's what Jason is made of.

Him attacking "the wrong people" is not even remotely the issue we have with him.

*Shrug* Never said it was, I was explaining why he is town. I do appreciate you actually showing your work though, a lot more than most. Just completely disagree.

unvote;
Vote: Jason

I'll address stuff tomorrow. Work/Daughter's birthday this week/etc.

lol

You cited irl as why he's not posting but in my experience IRL excuses doubly come into play when you're scum and really just don't want to post.

I understand the issue, but my site posting AKA pulling out of the UK scum meet should be clear that this is something real that happened. I guess judge us now that it's starting to be resolved, as in we should be picking up the new car by the end of the week. Last week was just a shit week, I'm glad we managed any posting if I'm honest.

So if anyone thinks they have a good reason for SafetyDance being town, I'd like to hear it.

*SNIP*

Unvote: SafetyDance

Vote: McStab

What the flipping fuck?

scott/zach, can you please EXPLAIN the townread on Jason? Like,

attempt

to convince others instead of just saying "take my word for it".

That's pretty much the extent of it I'm afraid. He is a terrible day one lynch and I will scream that to the rooftops. I don't have anything better than "because". I am surprised that one has actually bothered to ask Jason of our defense of him though. That's kinda weird now I think of it. But yeah, if you don't like our arguments for JasonTown, it doesn't get any better.

After I get done posting this Jason does actually comment. Timing.

Looked though the hydra posts and I am happy to ignore that for now. The defending was strange, but eh. Putting a pin in it. There are much scummier people around. Like Safety and TGAH. Lets lynch one of these two.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

Unvote: Vote: TheGreatestAmericanHero

No way rolfcopter is the passive head in a hydra as town. I just did a search on him and he's also active in site. The alarm bells are ringing.

[sottyrulez]

Spoiler: Response to Cerulen 546

I don't have any good reason to think you guys are town, so the trust me Jason is town doesn't do anything for me at all. It also doesn't help that a good portion of your content is going to defend Jason, and not by anything other than "trust me". In light Of this I also find it somewhat ironic that you've pushed the "cerulean defending pless thing is irksome or awkward.". I would say its somewhat hypocritical, but it isn't exactly that...it more seems to me somewhat of a selective reading comprehension deficiency.

If you can't see the difference of us defending a person we have know for years for what we see as a weak ass bandwagon on them compared to you defending a hydra you have known for months I don't know what to say to you.

appreciated zach's description of Jason on Post 494 though some of it isn't my problem. I don't claim to be an expert in Jason's meta, I've only had direct experience with him in 2 games + 1 he was dead in before I replaced in. But, I read him pretty early and strongly as town in Harry potter...there were the mitigating factors of the not knowing the flavor dumb tell and one mafia member rvs voting him that helped, but still. He was a strong town read for me for other reasons too. His scum hunting read genuine as did his content. It's not here.

It's not your problem? A player who knows some one really well steps out to call one of your scum reads town isn't your problem? Let me repeat again, there are only two players I would ever defend THIS HARD. That's Jason and Zach. If you want to dismiss our read that

is

your problem. Don't shift the responsibility to us. As for this being most of our content, well people keep asking us about it. What do you expect?

heres something else as well that doesn't make sense. In Post 452 you say that you've known Jason for about 8 years and have been playing mafia with him for 3 or 4 years. So what was the point of Post 23. Now from the original post from safety dance we can see that it wasn't listed as just Sotty. There were no names listed as your hydra per Post 117, so what was he trying to prove in that post? I've never played with you guys as a hydra and have limited experience with zach, and even I knew who the hydra was wihtout it explained. That to me looks like a fake dumb tell.

Ummm? In the sign up it was listed as just me, Sotty. I asked Zach to hydra with me but we were still playing another game and he only wants to do one at at time. That game finished earlier than expected and the night Faraday was sending out the role pms I changed us to the hydra so Jason didn't know until the game started. We have been looking forward to playing together because it has been awhile since our last game hence the post. I mean, I don't get how that is a scum post at all, you are making mountains out of molehills. Jason

knows

the hydra, he has played with the hydra, but he didn't think he was going to play with the hydra in this game.

A lot of this is just so much reaching. What it comes down to is that there are much better lynches today than Jason. We will not be voting Jason unless something changes. I don't know why you are trying to change our mind it won't happen. This is probably the last time I will address this to you because I feel like I am repeating myself over and over.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

Actually Tammy, can you link this scum game you have with Jason? I'd like to compare notes.

[sottyrulez]

Unvote: Vote: TheGreatestAmericanHero

No way rolfcopter is the passive head in a hydra as town. I just did a search on him and he's also active in site. The alarm bells are ringing.

What do you think of Konowa's cotent irrespective of rofl's activity?

Scumolious. Check our ISO for details, then think about joining us here.

Arthur - What's your read on Pless/Zar?

Prob null leaning scum.

Have you been very accurate in reading them (either head) in the past? What is leaning you null/scum?

Not particularly? (I mean I don't remember the last time Zar played a westerosi game, and I don't remember ever seeing Pless as scum on westeros, so meh - I don't remember ever really getting a strong read on them in ADWD either).

And I find their lack of engagement/interaction and seemingly interest to be appalling. Both of them look like they're forcing themselves to post, esp from Zar who looks like he's being dragged to come and post. I actually find Pless' annoyance at Zar not really posting or conversing with him privately rather genuine - but I can very clearly see it as Pless being annoyed at Zar in a scum slot.

I quoted this because it needs to be read again. This is echoing my gut read on this slot right now and put into better words than I could.

Never mind about the link Tammy, Zach linked me to it.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

#492, Zach I looked it up using my limited computer time then tried to write it later on the phone when I shouldn't have, and screwed it up. Three days on two different anti-biotics so far seems to be working though.

Would like to see it when you get the time to do so. It's relatively important to me to see that you've actually genuinely done the research.

[sottyrulez]

Cerulean, let's try a different tact.

Assuming we're town, how likely do you think it is that we're wrong about Jason and that he's actually scum?

Assuming we're not town, how likely do you think it is that Jason is scum vs us going out of our way to white knight him?

Consider the answer to either scenario there while you're working out in your mind whether Jason is still worth pursuing at this point in the game.

[sottyrulez]

Cerulean, let's try a different tact.

Assuming we're town, how likely do you think it is that we're wrong about Jason and that he's actually scum?

Assuming we're not town, how likely do you think it is that Jason is scum vs us going out of our way to white knight him?

Consider the answer to either scenario there while you're working out in your mind whether Jason is still worth pursuing at this point in the game.

How hard is it to see that I'm trying to read all of you?

I've gone through each of the scenarios you've proposed. I know Jason's not getting lynched today. He knows it, you know it, the entire town knows it. But, it happens to be important to me that I have my reads as right as I can get them, and if that means me going over what is bothering me I'm going to do it. I don't care if it seems like I'm reaching or if it's silly, you can point out to me why it is. I'm not interested in stubbornly holding onto a read that will end up being a detriment to town, I'm interested in having accurate scum reads.

Fair enough.

[sottyrulez]

Unvote: Vote: TheGreatestAmericanHero

No way rolfcopter is the passive head in a hydra as town. I just did a search on him and he's also active in site. The alarm bells are ringing.

What do you think of Konowa's cotent irrespective of rofl's activity?

Scumolious. Check our ISO for details, then think about joining us here.

The only real issue I have with any of their posting is rofl's Post 153 and rofl's lack of activity. This activity level is pretty typical for what I experienced with konowa recently though. And as I've just played a game with konowa, I looked through his scum meta and when scum he tends to be really passive and not asking direct questions of people all that much. If I were just judging konowa, I'd think they were townish. But, I hate the post I just linked by rofl. Empire says it sounds like town rofl and thinks konowa sounds like town too, and roll does make these sorts of posts as town, but this sounds like trying to stretch something really far to make something sound like scum, which is what I remember rofl being like when we were scum together. I think empire thinks I'm just being paranoid or something because he changed the subject last time we talked.

I can link the scum games I looked through later if youre interested, but I'm heading out to work right now.

I believe I've only played with Konowa town, so I can't say I know much about his scum meta. I do know that rolf hates being scum about as much as I do, so it's bothering me a lot that Konowa is more present in this game/the more dominant head, and that he's apparently convincing rolf of reads rather than the other way around. (Rolf's town game really shines so I'd expect him to be extremely proactive, and he's not showing that here.)

[sottyrulez]

I also looked through Mcstab's iso and it's scummy. A lot of what was in my head to cover was covered in Benmage's 557 which I largely agreed with in points regarding Mcstab of all things. (I usually don't find myself agreeing with Benmage about much of anything.)

Mcstab/Zdenek would be my 2nd choice for a lynch.

[sottyrulez]

Personally I just think you are trying to deflect attention back to me over the gambit etc so as to take away from people looking at you.

By suggesting that you could be scum in a post where I talk about a bunch of people and while I'm not even voting you - that suggestion is LOLZY.

This reaction to me when you've said before that you think that my slot is 100% going to flip town is ridiculous.

Unvote
Vote: Jason

Not only was that assertion written round about 200 posts ago, that wasn't even what he said. He said he was nearly 100% that Mcstab would flip town. That's not

quite

the same thing as saying 100%

You get some scum points for that misrep. (And for using the statement in an attempt to prevent Jason from voicing any future suspicion on your slot.)

[sottyrulez]

That defense is so over the top, it's unbelievable. You're going to pick me saying 100% rather than nearly 100% as something to push as scummy? What to do think of Plesszarus completely misrepresenting McStab in their case on him?

Where's the misrep?

[sottyrulez]

Yes, I have said I thought McStab would prob flip town... Nowhere have I said ZDenek would flip scum.... I was

1) Pointing out that I felt his comments on me where more to drag attention away from his growing wagon
2) Showing how he was wrong.

Here we are arguing over a read that didn't even change in the first place.

[sottyrulez]

We didn't do this. Zar misreading one post is obviously not the bulk of our "case" against McStab.

I did not say that the whole case was a misrep, but if Sottyrulez thinks that it's scummy for me to say 100% rather than nearly 100%, but doesn't care about that, then something is wrong.

On a side note, the reason why I checked that point was that it was one of the few things in your case that I thought was objectively scummy.

Where's the misrep?

basically because I don't understand why McStab found Nostredeus' vote of Shadoweh suspicious, since he had been voting Shadoweh himself.

Hmm. Looks like Zar is misreading things a bit here. McStab votes Shadoweh in 93, and later, in 164 attacks Nost for being talked out of his idea by Shadoweh, his scum-read. But McStab doesn't actually say the Shadoweh vote is suspicious in itself - looks like Zar missed the point a bit

*Grabs chest* You got me. I'll go ahead and slightly adjust my read of Pless from null to null leaning scum and my read your slot scummy, to leaning scummier.

[sottyrulez]

Blegh...

Also games 31 pages now.... D1.... Need to start compromising on wagons. (Hint Hint Mcstab/Zdenek or Petapan/ActionDan)

We'll end up on Zdenek if we need to compromise, but not ready to do that yet.

More confident in TGAH than any other lynch.

[sottyrulez]

Ok so let's lynch TGAH.

[sottyrulez]

Friendly Neighbour != Neighbourizer

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... _Neighbour

It's a necessarily town-aligned role.

its not a town role, but its also not a scum role...It can be used as scum or town and has no real indication as to the allignment of the person at all.

Wiki says it's pretty much town if it's confirmed. The problem is believing the claim because...

The problem with it being used as a fake claim though, he can be 'verified' by one of his lower suspected scum buddies. Who can say yes, I was neighborized.

Yes, this is valid.

I'm more inclined to believe actiondan's claim over zdenek's. That isn't to say it necessarily has to be a one or another deal. I'm not sure how likely it is that both roles exist in the game though...

I still prefer lynching TGAH and figuring the rest of this out later.

[sottyrulez]

I'm not sure how likely it is that both roles exist in the game though...

Scum posting - trying to cast doubt on the possibility without taking a stance.

If you think it's unlikely, say why.

So ummm, do you believe Dan's claim?

[sottyrulez]

I'm not sure how likely it is that both roles exist in the game though...

Scum posting - trying to cast doubt on the possibility without taking a stance.

If you think it's unlikely, say why.

So ummm, do you believe Dan's claim?

I believe that he's a neighborizer, but I don't think that it's relevant to his alignment.

Now, do you think that it's unlikely that both roles are in the game?

As town yes.

[sottyrulez]

Why?

If I had a particularly compelling reason that didn't require having more information, I'd be on one of your wagons today.

It's just a feeling, that I'm doubting I can substantiate with any fact.

[sottyrulez]

American revolution had a town masonizer and a town neighborizer one shot.

But leprechaun mafia had a friendly neighbor and a scum neighborizer one shot.

Both are likely here.

American revolution have much else in the way of town power roles?

[sottyrulez]

Why?

If I had a particularly compelling reason that didn't require having more information, I'd be on one of your wagons today.

It's just a feeling, that I'm doubting I can substantiate with any fact.

I can't tell what this is supposed to mean. If you had a compelling reason, you'd be on one of our wagons today. Okay, but isn't that always true of basically any player?

Sure, but I happen to be suspicious of you.

Then there's the fact that you said before that you're more inclined to believe ActionDan. How you can think that it makes any sense to lynch someone with a confirmable town role on day one is completely beyond me.

You mean "confirmable" and I emphasize the quotation part in the scenario that you're lying scum and claim to have targeted a buddy who backs up your claim.

Just because you claimed a "confirmable" role doesn't mean I have to be inclined to believe it.

[sottyrulez]

Actually the way Dan claimed,

thinking he was counterclaiming, seems more townish.

And I believe the 3-shot neighborizer bit, just still holding onto some of my suspicions of the previous slot and his replacement in posts I guess.

The bolded is basically where I'm at on that one.

[sottyrulez]

Oh wow, got prodded. With how much has been posted since our last post, I didn't think it had actually been that long.

SottyRulez' use of circular reasoning to attempt to justify there suggestion that they don't think that there's both a neighborizer and Friendly neighbor as town in this game is surprising.

We have doubts, we've made those doubts clear. I don't think it's surprising to have doubts. It doesn't matter at this point anyway. It will matter later when there's more information and a clearer picture than there is now.

Anyway, ====[] Let's go TGAH lynch!

[sottyrulez]

It's like this game is in neutral. Would someone like to hammer in this century?

[sottyrulez]

Vote: Jason

Dan, when you claim your role under suspicion, you're expected to be open about your role and explain your reasoning behind choices you make. You don't get to be secretive and you don't get to cry foul when you get a negative reaction for trying to be secretive.

[sottyrulez]

Vote: Jason

...you know what I'm going to say, right?

What are you going to say?

[sottyrulez]

What are you going to say?

Well, you spent the entire D1 adamantly defending Jason as town so uhh what the fuck

It's a new day, and what would be the fun without completely 180ing on a stance?

[sottyrulez]

I'm kinda confused by Plessie because their follow up seems to largely focus on SAD, but their vote is actually on CDB.

[sottyrulez]

This list matches up fairly well with our current town-reads (not in this order, obviously, but then this list isn't meant to be ordered, right?).

We'd add you and sottyrulez as town-reads (despite sotty's odd reversal re:Jason today), and wouldn't have TML (who's definitely still null for us) or DV (who

was

null, but has dropped down to weak-scum recently), but otherwise that's it. Can you explain what we're missing in TML's play?

No, it's not meant to be ordered. I'd like to see some more from Zach, especially regarding Jason. And I'm not at all confident in DV.

We'll have more whenever Jason decides to post and acknowledge our vote.

[sottyrulez]

2 cops down, thats a great start.

Not too sure what to make of Sottys vote TBH it is kinda weird they want me to respond to their vote before explaining it. Honestly, not too bothered. I've played with both Sotty and Zach many times, used to them changing stances on me. Though I have never known this tacit from either.

You're not at all interested in what changed our opinion of you?

Usually if they have something on someone they come out pushing it relentlessly and will howl it from the roof tops. It's unusual for them to do it this way. Meh, whatever. It is odd... but its been a while since I played with them both so they may have changed things up a bit.

Would you characterize the TGAH push we made that way? What do you think makes today's vote different?

[sottyrulez]

Please don't make me wait an entire weekend worth of time for a response this time.

[sottyrulez]

So basically you care as much about what changed our position on you as you seemingly have about the game since about the halfway point of day 1?

See, your early play hit what we know of your town meta to a T, but your play since has basically been coasting, and you've actually spent a large part of the game completely disinterested in our reads, which is another trait that is unlike town Jason and more like scum Jason.

So yes, our read on you has waivered for that reason. It's also waivered because despite TGAH ruthless attacks on you, you never seemed all that interested in lynching them. So that's the other mystery for us. What lead you to town read that slot? (And if you weren't townreading them, why the hell weren't you voting them?)

I mean you can rebut that we're depending too much on the tendency of your town play in regards to following our suspicion, but the lack of vote on TGAH from your position doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me, even more so because I can't find anything in your iso where you ever give a clear indication of what you thought of their play.

[sottyrulez]

I've seen scum betray their inside knowledge before. Not sure I've ever seen it done that blatantly though. (I ran a game where I had two scumteams, and one of them openly speculated about multiple teams in early game because of the small size of their team.)

[sottyrulez]

well, i mean, you have to say that because you're scum and you need to leave SAD available for mislynch

Try again.

[sottyrulez]

If you think we're scum with TGAH after the way day 1 played out, I really don't know what to tell you.

[sottyrulez]

sotty reading as scum as a result of his attempt to deflect the hero-wagon onto dan

Oh I'm sorry, when did my vote ever move off dan in the ensuing deadline? Oh it didn't? Yeah, that would be inconvenient to your case wouldn't it?

[sottyrulez]

Off Hero rather, but you get the idea.

[sottyrulez]

@SottyRulez - who was more behind the TGAH scum push on your side at the start, Zach or Sotty? or were you both in agreement from the start he was scum, or did one have to persuade the other?

At the start of the day, Sotty was heavily suspicious of TGAH, and I was more interested in Safetydance. Later on I came on board because of Rolf's lack of presence in the game because he has a scum meta that is very similar to my own so I became convinced later on in the day that TGAH was scum. From that point on, we both wanted him dead.

[sottyrulez]

If you think we're scum with TGAH after the way day 1 played out, I really don't know what to tell you.

Um...Traitor? (jus sayin)

Go read his final post after being lynched. He went out of his way to mention us being a possible SK. That would just be an odd thing to say about someone you would theoretically know is on your scumteam.

(I think he posted that because he wanted the town to consider us a serial killer suspect to salvage any value in our lynchability, but of course I have the benefit of knowing my alignment.)

[sottyrulez]

Kuribo - what's your read on Cdb?

Kise - same question.

Not a fan at all of nostredeus' vote on Sotty. Didn't like kuribo's vote on Sotty either but he removed it so that's all good, but nostredeus' vote was awful on all kinds of levels. Nost. I'd like you to explain what you think Sotty!scum has to gain by spending day one hard defending Jason only to turn around and push him today. How was their interaction forced?

I'll make a real post tomorrow or Wednesday as will other head but now *sleep*

I dunno what to tell you here but frankly scotty comes in with

"Vote jason"

and demands a response to that vote, jason responds with

"Not too sure what to make of Sottys vote TBH it is kinda weird they want me to respond to their vote before explaining it. "

to which scotty responds with

"You're not at all interested in what changed our opinion of you?"

Wow, that quote has been tragically snipped.

2 cops down, thats a great start.

Not too sure what to make of Sottys vote TBH it is kinda weird they want me to respond to their vote before explaining it.

Honestly, not too bothered

. I've played with both Sotty and Zach many times, used to them changing stances on me. Though I have never known this tacit from either.

You're not at all interested in what changed our opinion of you?

Bold emphasis mine. He actually said he wasn't too bothered. This can't be anything but you changing the context of what actually happened.

then pushes hard with

"Please don't make me wait an entire weekend worth of time for a response this time."

as if Jason hadn't clearly pointed out he'd be V/LA over the weekend in question. Jason responds with

"I replied... I'm not wasting time by chasing after you asking why oh why did you change your mind... if you have a solid reason, you would have posted it by now."

which given that scotty hadn't posted a reason seems reasonable to me, scotty then does two weird things:

1) "So basically you care as much about what changed our position on you as you seemingly have about the game since about the halfway point of day 1?"

Which is clearly not what Jason is saying, maybe we're all speaking different languages but it looks to me like Jason is asking multiple times for the reasoning behind the vote.

Let's establish a couple of things here. Yes, Jason does declare V/LA. He tends to do this over weekends. I tend to devalue it because I know what he tends to do on those weekends, I know he has internet access, I know he's on the internet on the weekends, so I know he can post here if he really wants to.

Part of the purpose of the vote was to see how much he'd care about it. That was certainly accomplished one way or another, but you defending Jason by saying that I'm misrepping him when he directly said he wasn't too bothered is trying to rewrite events a little more than I'm comfortable with.

2) "See, your early play hit what we know of your town meta to a T, but your play since has basically been coasting, and you've actually spent a large part of the game completely disinterested in our reads, which is another trait that is unlike town Jason and more like scum Jason."

Which strikes me as backwards; Scotty voted BEFORE Jason "seemed"(I'm using quotes given 1) disinterested in scotty's read, this can't be a reason for the vote and if it is it should at least be presented with an example from before the vote.

I wasn't talking about just our read on him. I was talking about general disinterest in any of our reads. (This argument is meta based in nature, so I wouldn't expect you to actually understand the full context of the point I'm trying to make here, but you did change reads to read here.)

If Scotty didn't just force that then I honestly don't know what your definition of forced is but for me that's a pretty damn good example of it. I'm happy to say I think at least one of them are scum, I've already given reasons why I don't think it's Jason and now I've given reasons why I think it's scotty; my vote stands.

What leads you to believe this is a scum/town interaction? I'm not even convinced of that at this point because I'm not actually sure Jason is scum. I'm actually trying to figure that out.

[sottyrulez]

On iso of Nostredeus:

So TML has had 0 heat all game which makes me sad, I suppose that can wait until Day 2; I might look at this once TML has more content to consider.

Do you think people

should

be looking at TML? If so, why?

(Looking at your iso, you seem to suggest that TML's 390 is scummy, but you say nothing as to why. Can't see any other mention of him at all.)

I'm unsure at the moment as to TML's alignment, I am worried about the lack of heat though

(I find that players who coast through Day 1 worry me)

; I don't think there's anything especially bad which is why I'm waiting for more content there before deciding either way. As for #390 my problem is TML saying he/she buys #351 but not voting Jason, personally when I said I liked #351 I gave analysis as to why it didn't convince me (namely that I don't see how it shows scum motivation but rather explains why the gambit was bad) given that TML didn't give that sort of analysis I can only assume TML likes #351 in the entirety which is then at odds with his/her vote on absta. *Shrugs*

Bold emphasis mine. One of my points is that Jason was coasting through toward the end of day one. I find it strange that you wouldn't acknowledge that point in attacking me while defending Jason.

I'm looking for the case on TGAH but can't find it, I'll keep at it to see if I agree but until then I'd only be sheeping and that won't help you guys establish reads and what not.

I'm open to being convinced though.

I missed this gem before. I know the traitor thing can be counterargued. Regardless it can also be argued as distancing from what was believed to be a mislynch as well because he says "he's open to being convinced" which means that someone else's points would ultimately be responsible for the lynch..

That feels really town; my real concern is that TGAH had the opportunity to respond to the case pless made in #633 and didn't, that's what I was personally looking for.

Not a fan of this nor DV's wishy-washiness... but this one more so.

The claim read like capitulation, scum caught... not town with fire that its a mislynch... No even "F"-off, just total blah.

Really? That's interesting, I supported a TGAH lynch based on #633 reasoning and said I'd hold off the hammer until deadline so that TGAH would have chance to answer; it seems like that's exactly what I'm doing, is there something wrong with that plan? If not then I'm not sure why me saying "that felt really town" is any different to DV saying it felt town, can you paint the distinction for me since you think one is worse than the other?

Oh man. Way too much justifying of a stance based on someone else's reasoning.

Interested to see some heat on SAD, who it's coming from worries me of course. #1016 is weak sauce and seems to be refuted in the quote SAD quotes but maybe that's just me reading it wrong? #1079 is half a wall of "zdenek is looking bad" with the final sentence of the first paragraph being "but nvm all of that because the claim will sort that out" it just makes the first paragraph largely worthless...

When were you ever suspicious of SAD? Looking through your iso you seem to write him off as town on day 1. This comes out of nowhere and feels like it's just fanning the flames for a wagon.

Unvote: Vote: Nostredeus

Why do you seem to want TML pursued while making no serious effort to go after him? What is your read of him now? I mean I'm not really seeing anything that looks like any kind of process in trying to read him, just you filing off an "uneasiness about his play" and then filing it away.

Also if you're interested in the heat on SAD now, what's flipped your position on him? (The explanations you give aren't exactly strong because you back away from some of the attacks as soon as you make them.) You were less interested in him on day one so this would be changing your position. I mean, that in itself isn't a problem, except that you seem to have found a pretty juicy line of attack on me for doing the same thing.

I'm filing Jason off as lazy town for now. I'm a lot less confident in that read now though.

[sottyrulez]

Don't like Sotty's Nost vote at a glance (haven't read their other posts for background but the post as a post is no) mostly because it's on Nost and their reasons are kind of nitpicky. Would you consider this your strongest choice for a vote right now? What do you think of people universally reading his D1 as town?

People can be wrong? If he was universally read as town, I'm not seeing why.

~Duplicate post on Zachrulez deleted

[sottyrulez]

Grrr

Don't like Sotty's Nost vote at a glance (haven't read their other posts for background but the post as a post is no) mostly because it's on Nost and their reasons are kind of nitpicky. Would you consider this your strongest choice for a vote right now? What do you think of people universally reading his D1 as town?

People can be wrong? If he was universally read as town, I'm not seeing why.

[sottyrulez]

Oh you're voting me, I'm shocked, truly I am...

I suppose if you ignore all of the words around Jason saying "I'm not bothered" then I you can probably pretend that Jason only responded with "I'm not bothered", if however you go ahead and read all of Jason's stuff you'll see things like the line I quoted:

"I replied... I'm not wasting time by chasing after you asking why oh why did you change your mind... if you have a solid reason, you would have posted it by now."

Or directly from the same post you quoted:

"Not too sure what to make of Sottys vote TBH it is kinda weird they want me to respond to their vote before explaining it."

I dunno how that can be read other than Jason wanting an explanation before responding.

It can be read by interpreting him saying he's not too bothered meaning that he's actually not too bothered. Are you actually being serious here? Really?

It's not insignificant that you omitted him saying that either.

With regards to V/LA, like, V/LA is V/LA I dunno why Jason can't post over the weekends but honestly I don't care as long as it is consistent both when Jason is town/scum; which, you know, it is...

Given that ^ there's probably a difference between someone coasting over a weekend when it's clearly not a scum-tell and someone coasting in the sense that they didn't have to respond to any heat on them for an entire in-game day; sure we've used the same words but frankly we have different meanings when we say "coasting" and yours is crap.

It wasn't just about that V/LA. (It is part of it, but it's not

everything

in regards to the coasting.) That post was my annoyance with him going on V/LA and delaying any progress in a read on him over the weekend.

This stuff about how I've brought a read on SAD out of no where is really odd, given that you've just dragged a read out of no where on Jason after calling him town D1 I'm not sure who you think that's gunna be convincing? The difference between us is I gave reasons and allowed others to provide input on those reasons, you voted then gave reasons a number of posts later based on stuff that happened AFTER the vote.

You flipped, made a weak attempt to explain your change in position, and didn't even put a vote behind it. What's the crux of what is scummy about my play if your similar play there was not? The fact that I didn't immediately explain the vote? The fact that I actually voted based on my changed read? (A play that generally accomplishes more than not voting.)

Not to not immediately explaining, part of purpose of the play was to get reactions

before

explaining the vote. If I say I intend to explain the vote and eventually do, what does it matter if it's not immediately when cast? It just seems like you're opportunistically attacking me for breaking some concept of expected play meta.

The stuff on TML is a general worry/observation that no one has made any effort towards looking into TML, that's all I'm saying there, if I say something more you can read into that all you want but I recommend you wait for me to say something more first.

See you're putting the fact that no one is interested in looking into TML on the town. You have a vote. You have the ability to question and pressure to try to get a better read. You're not doing that in regards to TML. The result of your action is an attempt to cast a dark cloud (and somewhat vaguely.) over TML while putting the onus on the town to actually pursue him. It shouldn't be hard to see why I find it hard to see that coming from a pro-town mindset.

I'll vote based on other people's reasoning all I want, and change stance based on other people's reasoning too; see me changing stance on the mass name claim early D1, shockingly other people can have convincing thoughts too.

tl;dr: herp derp bro?

I'm not saying other people can't have convincing thoughts. I'm saying that it's concerning that your positions follow (and seem to depend on.) other people's convincing thoughts. This is a great way to avoid responsibility for lynches, and also a great way to put that responsibility on others. It's a great position for scum to be in.

[sottyrulez]

@Sotty I don't feel like searching the thread for other people's reasons right now seeing as I have like 15 pages to read without it but I think my own town read started at this post. IIRC there was a wagon on him and his response to it was reasonable+.

Well that tells me you have a town read on him, but that's a far cry from universal. I'm not going to go back and reread day 1 just to verify your statement that he had a universal town read either.

[sottyrulez]

@sottyrulez:

Do you find TGAH's push on Nost day one to be distancing rather than pushing a mislynch?

Forgot about that vote on their part. On isoing TGAH again I can see why I did. Once their vote left nost I think there was only ever one brief mention of nost after that. So yeah, that could easily be distancing.

[sottyrulez]

CDB

- Remind me what game we played with (one of) us and Jason.

~ Sotty currently catching up.

[sottyrulez]

... but he was a traitor? <_<

Read that post again and you'll see Jason remarking on Zach's meta, not TGAH interactions with us.

Happy enough with Jason's responses to us. I would like him to do more though, I was looking forward to teaming up and taking on the world in this game but nothin'. Who are your scum reads right now Jason?

The CDB hate is somewhat tasty and I'd quite like the idea of a Kise vote. He has come into the game and added a lot of nothing. I have town reads on Kuribo and Benmage right now, so less of that crap the better.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

I'd like to direct everyone's attention to the play of Nostradeus and Kise. When you get a free moment from your focus on the major bandwagons, feel free to take a look at their play.

I feel horrible for stalling on you guys.

Why don't I have any votes on me?

Unvote: Vote: Kise

I was meant to actually get back to Babyspice way back when but that went on the backburner for some reason, but she never bothered to give me anything to back up her meta read of Vifam scum with anything other than her word. (If there was an actual meta read, how does she not have even so much as a single game to rattle off for reference to go look and verify what she got?)

[sottyrulez]

And ugh at Sotty still sticking to the oddball wagons. This Kise vote seems kind of opportunistic to me. "I've been wanting to get back to BabySpice" rubs me the wrong way too.

Are you saying only the major wagons are worth looking at for scum? The "oddball wagons" as you put it happen to be where I think the scum are actually likely to be.

If Nost and Kise had 5 votes instead of Kuribo and CDB, would you happen to be more interested in them? If the answer is yes, you might want to rethink your scumhunting methods.

Also, I would suggest having another look at the day 1 wagons. TGAH qualified as an "oddball wagon" for most of day 1 as well.

[sottyrulez]

Non-current votes with relationships to my wagon

Cerulean

- Has not mentioned me often and was a bit general in the "oh, I agree with the CDB wagon" early on Day 2. Has questioned me on other things, though, rather than just letting it ride. The lack of a vote on me is suitable to the amount of discussion they've had about me. Innocent.

BT

- specified an intent to read me, then later said "I'm in pretty solid agreement with the CDB suspicion but I want peta/dan/kuribo or sotty lynched more." Convenient position re: my wagon while staying pretty quiet overall - and honestly I thought our little talk before went pretty well, but apparently not - plus my earlier feeling that one of his posts was something I'd have written as scum, I could see BT as scum quite easily. Guilty.

Sottyrulez

- "The CDB hate is somewhat tasty" is all they've said about my wagon and that was a while ago. I want more than that, sotty, if you're going to go anywhere near my wagon any time soon. Guilty.

I'll bring this to her attention. She's currently more interested in lynching you than I am. (We're more in agreement on higher tier suspects at the moment though so... yeah.)

[sottyrulez]

The vote on Jason was more about trying to get more out of him because our read had wavered. It was intended to get more out of him/a better read more than it was an actual intent to lynch.

If that's what you interpret as a convenient excuse to move away from the Jason vote, I'm just saying in response that I had pretty much always intended for the vote to actually move off him eventually. (Unless his responses convinced me he was scum, and they obviously didn't.)

[sottyrulez]

Also I think you need to read our side of the nost exchange. (Your including it in an iso post indicates you've only read his side of that.)

[sottyrulez]

CDB: If I may ask, how much would you say Sotty's comment about finding the interest in you tasty is influencing your suspicion of us?

I'm just curious.

[sottyrulez]

It's certainly an influence. I'm pretty damn sure I'm not as obvscum as those advocating my lynch seem to want people to think so the throwaway nature of the comment is suspicious. I think your interaction with Nost is scummy independently of that comment but each makes me more confident about being on the right track with the other.

I actually do happen to believe that your actions are being blown out of proportion to an extent. I'm just curious how much that statement is influencing your thoughts on us. Finding the statement suspicious is reasonable being that it seemingly came from nowhere. (It didn't, I think part of it stems from your vote on Jason appearing to be dependent on our position on him. It has been a source of uneasiness on our part to varying degrees obviously.)

[sottyrulez]

I'm really not interested in lynching CDB today. Townread on him is getting stronger. Aside from the stuff between us and nost I'm finding his suspicions reasonable. (Not just on us but in general.)

[sottyrulez]

I'm really not interested in lynching CDB today. Townread on him is getting stronger. Aside from the stuff between us and nost I'm finding his suspicions reasonable. (Not just on us but in general.)

Just to echo I am also no longer down with a CDB lynch. His posting today, plus scummier people with a dash of Zach convincing me has defo taken away my taste for that wagon.

~Sotty

[sottyrulez]

@Sottyrulez

Can you embellish on your Kise vote... reads like a shitty placeholder.

Other than being probably the lowest of the hanging fruit. You really have minimal at best interaction with Baby Spice, so did you have an suspicions of that slot?

I was undecided when it was Baby Spice in the slot. What I had seen from her wasn't particularly great. The meta was thrown out there and her activity outside of that was rather low, and her meta claims were never backed up with anything other than her word.

--Also Kise's iso is atrocious, as you ask us all to take a look at. What are your primary issues?

It's basically an iso of nothing combined by the fact that he's pretty much daring the town to pressure him. I'm compelled to provide that pressure and do what I can to see him earn a hot death. (Him wondering why he has no votes rings a loud bell in the scum gloating department.)

*You have town reads on CDB and Kuribo.

Can you explain the kuribo read?

That one will have to wait for Sotty because that's her read.

Would like to see some of the people noting better townreads on me/unvoting to consider following me to BT or at least comment on my vote. I feel it's a real go-er.

Lots of work today but I should have time later tonight to look at absta's relationship with TML if that will make the latter feel better. After that, though, I'm looking forward to deeper comment from him on my recent posts and vote.

Your post moved BT above nost on my suspicion list actually. I found the complete lack of acknowledgement of any kind of changed read on camn very interesting.

[sottyrulez]

yes, won't be V/LA until about 7pm EST. Do you have an issue with me going V/LA at weekends?

You are so lazy regarding this game. V/LA or not, you could be doing more.

[sottyrulez]

*You have town reads on CDB and Kuribo.

Can you explain the kuribo read?

That one will have to wait for Sotty because that's her read.

What is YOURRRRR READ??

I'm more in the middle with him.

[sottyrulez]

Actually, CDB, you said I was ganging up on camn with absta, right? But that's kind of generalizing it, since it wasn't always like that. Check the progression of my camn read over the course of D1 and get back to me if you think it doesn't make sense.

Jason when you finish catching up can you tell me if you still gut sotty as scum? Because I'm tempted to vote them here and now.

That's fine because you're probably scum too.

[sottyrulez]

My comment regarding really wanting to switch to sottyrulez stems from

Your post moved BT above nost on my suspicion list actually. I found the complete lack of acknowledgement of any kind of changed read on camn very interesting.

Which not only sucks as a reason alone but is weird when they actually seemed solid about the nost vote?

How does it suck as a reason? Why is it not worth wondering why you never mentioned camn again?

It's not just that either. Sotty hasn't liked any of the pushes you've made in arguing us scum and she's been saying you're scum and I've kept brushing it off.

[sottyrulez]

It sucks because you're acting like it's a convincing reason for thinking I'm scum when in reality it's really iffy. It's not like it was a very important + relevant read change for me to note at the time (also seeing as it was consensus) so is it that shocking that I didn't?

Except that when you don't bother to even acknowledge that the flips dictate that it should change your approach, it starts to look more like you're trying to distance from your previous stance.

RE: The second part. Why hasn't she mentioned that before?

She has, just not in the game thread. You might not have noticed, but I've been a lot more active than she has. She has a lot less internet access than I do. (Absolutely none during her workday.)

[sottyrulez]

Except that when you don't bother to even acknowledge that the flips dictate that it should change your approach, it starts to look more like you're trying to distance from your previous stance.

I'd be trying to distance from my previous stance by... not mentioning it at all? I don't follow.

By not mentioning it at all, you can create the perception you didn't have a previous stance on Camn. I certainly forgot you did until CDB brought it back up.

[sottyrulez]

It would have been way easier to say "I agree, the flip dictates that I change my read" like ~everyone else~, instead of ignoring it and risk getting called out for it

Yeah, but you never bothered to post anything that gives any hint that you seem to care about actually having an accurate read on camn at all. In a town mindset, it would be worth noting the flip at the very least makes her much less likely scum. (Or maybe you still had some reservations that it was a cross bus.) Something,

anything

that would indicate a genuine thought process.

[sottyrulez]

Also on Baby Spice/Kise it's really just a few really glaring points.

Baby Spice calls Vifam scum based on meta read, does not vote him.

Baby Spice then manages to vote Shadoweh for reasons I'm having trouble understanding now. Bad setup spec? Bad town list? How is this read stronger than her Vifam meta read?

Vote comes off Shadoweh, she writes down vote on bold but never actually makes one. I would assume this is her attempting to vote Vifam?

I ask for elaboration on the Vifam scum meta. (I was looking for links so that I could verify the meta claims she was making.) She never provided any backup to her meta read with anything other than her word.

The whole call Vifam scum but Vote Shadoweh doesn't really feel like it rings true looking back now.

As far as Kise goes

I feel horrible for stalling on you guys.

Why don't I have any votes on me?

That post alone warrants lynching Kise. He's daring the town to vote him.

So it's a combination of a scummy read on Baby Spice, and 1434 which triggered a huge twitch from me. Couple that with the fact that I can't remember anything else he's actually posted in this game either. (That doesn't mean there's anything in those posts that is runaway scummy, but if nothing he's posted stands out to me and the slot's already reading scum that's certainly

not a good sign.

)

[sottyrulez]

Yeah, but you never bothered to post anything that gives any hint that you seem to care about actually having an accurate read on camn at all. In a town mindset, it would be worth noting the flip at the very least makes her much less likely scum. (Or maybe you still had some reservations that it was a cross bus.) Something,

anything

that would indicate a genuine thought process.

Yes, it would have been better had I mentioned it, but I forgot, that much is obvious. It doesn't mean the thought process didn't exist. The point I'm making is that, while I have forgotten, it really doesn't point to scum, definitely not as much as you/CDB are saying it is. (in your case, enough to rank me above nost, who you have said plenty about)

More accurately it was a trigger that led me to reconsider my read.

[sottyrulez]

He is in Northern Ireland.

Before you go get pissed Jason, can you brief me on why BT is in your town group? Just a couple of lines would be nice.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

He is in Northern Ireland.

Before you go get pissed Jason, can you brief me on why BT is in your town group? Just a couple of lines would be nice.

~Sotty.

More because I am more sure of others being scum. Your back and forth with BT seemed more like town vs town going back and forth too. I disagree with BT saying your vote was opertunistic, but I just don't see anything overly scummy from BT.

I honestly don't even recall having a read on Viafam before BT stepped in.

Jason, can you explain this then?

Quick post before going to bed, will catch up tomorrow. But Vifam constant one liners and lack of real content really sit wrong with me. I have him marked as scum already but so far seems to be trying to coast through the game doing very little.

Vifam - How is DV fake no matter what? Can you go into a bit more detail please... making empty statements like that is not really good for you right now.

[sottyrulez]

I'm secondguessing my urge to lynch sotty, not because of the apparently horrible interaction but because I realized my accusations aren't as scum-pointing as I thought they were. I'm willing to go with Jason and company with this, though I still want them to say why they dislike the kuribo wagon (in some detail, since an ISO ctrl+f brings up squat), among other big wagons that they chose not to be a part of.

Sotty says he's town, and that's good enough for me. (Also I was leaning town on Dan.)

Also while we're here maybe you want to explain this?

And ugh at Sotty still sticking to the oddball wagons. This Kise vote seems kind of opportunistic to me. "I've been wanting to get back to BabySpice" rubs me the wrong way too.

If I'm commenting on the Kise thing I may as well note that I don't have a concrete read of the slot, though I do recall BabySpice being awkward and making me lean weak scum.

You attack us on the basis that our kise vote is opportunistic, but then you turn around and relay a weak scum read on the slot. This makes no sense.

Couple that with your interactions with us where you strongly argue us scum while saying your gut conflicts with the read, and progress to you backing off more completely as our wagon proves more unpopular, and you have a few more reasons why we think you're scum.

[sottyrulez]

Try answering again: why are we not lynching the kuribo slot?

Because Kuribo is town. That seems like the most important reason.

[sottyrulez]

Unvote: Vote: BT

Sure why not?

Pretty much willing to lynch Kise/BT in any order.

Whoops

Unvote: Vote: BT

Sure why not?

Pretty much willing to lynch Kise/BT in any order.

[sottyrulez]

Oh wow, that always gets ugly when I try to fix it.

[sottyrulez]

Yeah, it was day 1.

[sottyrulez]

Can we Lynch BT, guys? Please?

C

Oh and you know, if you want this lynch, it would help to actually have your vote there.

[sottyrulez]

Urgh. Not a BT wagon, Kuribo, Kise or SAD please.

You had ages to move your vote to Kise. Now we're doing the math and finding BT more viable and we don't care what order the two die.

[sottyrulez]

I'm thinking I don't want a kuribo wagon at all now

Like, I don't think this isn't a Just Now thing that I'll end up waffling over again tommorow, I think I legitimately read kuribo as town now, maybe ~_~

And instinctively I think I'll be voting SAD over Kise unless reread returns SAD as town, but I'll wait with the vote until I do that

Zach there's still that reply thing I'm waiting for

What exactly do you want me to reply to?

[sottyrulez]

you said you found some more reasons for me!scum but they don't make much sense

I'm saying that your calling our vote of Kise opportunistic is scummy not just for the fact that it wasn't, but for the fact that you came out with an apparent scum read (weak) on that slot anyway. It doesn't make much sense to attack us for that vote if it's putting pressure on a player you think has a decent chance of being scum.

The vote for him wasn't just because he was quiet. BabySpice's play factored in to, and the post I quoted with the vote was done so because he came off as asking for votes (daring us to lynch him.) in that post, a request I am more than happy to oblige.

[sottyrulez]

Also if your read on the slot is weak scum, why do you seem to be opposed to the lynch? Has your read changed? Your suggestion that he gets replaced feels a lot to me like you're more interested in the slot being salvaged than anything else.

[sottyrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Kise

This is happening.

[sottyrulez]

BT look at it now. The difference in post volume alone is striking.

How can you not see that unless you don't want to?

[sottyrulez]

sotty

-- what is your read on Arthur and why?

~ Pless

If I'm on the spot, I'd say town based on tone. That's not a strong read though.

As best I can tell your reasoning that he's scum is based on an associative tell. I don't like to go all in on those.

[sottyrulez]

That was terrible even for you Kise.

[sottyrulez]

O...k.

pedit oh I'm at 6.
Well I'm that white guy you all were talking about, the lawyer. Doc. I stll think sotty is SK.

Where have we heard that before?

Kise is still scum.

[sottyrulez]

^ Thanks for breaking it down even more, will look over it some point today.

~Sotty.

[sottyrulez]

O...k.

pedit oh I'm at 6.
Well I'm that white guy you all were talking about, the lawyer. Doc. I stll think sotty is SK.

Where have we heard that before?

Kise is still scum.

No seriously. You're saying I'm scum for wanting to be lynched after 2 of my teammates are down. That's a bad excuse to continue sitting on a lurker.

Oh yeah, here's you saying what you wouldn't do as scum now. Cool.

Also the post you're quoting is pointing out the fact that the premise of us being SK is not new. It was first advanced by TGAH after they were lynched, and it seems to be the foundation on which you are voting for us now.

Oh yeah, and scum totally claim doctor in a bind. It's like the oldest trick in the book.

[sottyrulez]

There's a bigger problem with that, actually.

Considering he claimed doc.

Why the fuck would you want to be lynched as doc?

Why the fuck would you want to be lynched as just about anything else?

I mean your logic is accurate but not unique to doctors.

[sottyrulez]

PEdit: Powerrole play means he'd be much more hesitant to just go "lynch me", in case it actually happens and he'd be forced to claim. Normal lurk townies don't care as much.

You seem to be arguing that he wouldn't post 1434 if he was actually a doctor. That seems to argue in favor of him not being a power role. (At least a town aligned one anyway.)

[sottyrulez]

Oh, I should have previewed, that does seem to be where you're at.

[sottyrulez]

There is the possibility that there is no town aligned doctor. That's probably worth mentioning.

[sottyrulez]

It'd be cool if people said they agree with me if they do because so far I'm still assuming sotty won't be lynched today

Vig or SK. I'll leave you to ponder that.

O...k.

pedit oh I'm at 6.
Well I'm that white guy you all were talking about, the lawyer. Doc. I stll think sotty is SK.

Having not even established a third party SK for certain, what townie is actually thinking this way and basing lynches on SK theories at this point?

This is why Kise isn't town.

[sottyrulez]

I also think what I just said about DV not commenting on the absta connection means he pretty much hasn't bothered getting an accurate read on me

You mean this?

Eh. I don't really like to hunt on connections personally. I don't think it's particularly significant unless there's town meta that indicates that he would take that kind of stuff into account heavily.

~Duplicate post on zachrulez account deleted

[sottyrulez]

This is ridiculous, the wagons are scrambling around like we don't know who to lynch while Kise is getting away with being scum.

[sottyrulez]

I'm flattered that these counter wagons have arrived, and glad one is on scum.

But can we make with lynching me already? I don't like that my wagon is stalling and I don't want kise lynched.

Would it help if I started dropping outdated scumtells?

@Ben and everyone else worried about me mindfucking them: any scum worth a damn could mindfuck town. I'm just more open about it. Besides. This is different. I'm actually hoping to get lynched rather than kise. I'm effectively betting my presence in this game on my town read on him.

Kise is not getting lynched today. So why are you trying to force your own wagon through? Why not try to ram BT through now?

Unvote: Vote: BT

That's certainly what I would prefer if Kise ain't getting rope.

[sottyrulez]

Otherwise I'd take a guess and say sotty is scum for his no less than active lurking through all of this wagon consolidation crap. Even without that, their latest post guts as scum. I'm pretty sure they haven't commented on me for a while so they're effectively ignoring the fact that I was on Kise with them. Would totally quicklynch.

What does you being on Kise have to do with anything? We already think you're both scummy at this point. You voting him doesn't change that.

[sottyrulez]

Also Sotty's currently sick with a really bad cold and I am barely on the internet in the evening so active lurking? Fuck that.

[sottyrulez]

If I'm compromise voting it'll be SAD over BT; I see literally no reason to vote the latter.

Stop being lazy, go look at Kuribo/Kise, and vote one of them

Kise's claim is solid.

Ah hahahahahaaaaaaaaaah

I wish we weren't collectively afraid to lynch a power role claim. I don't see kise flipping town, like at all.

[sottyrulez]

Otherwise I'd take a guess and say sotty is scum for his no less than active lurking through all of this wagon consolidation crap. Even without that, their latest post guts as scum. I'm pretty sure they haven't commented on me for a while so they're effectively ignoring the fact that I was on Kise with them. Would totally quicklynch.

What does you being on Kise have to do with anything? We already think you're both scummy at this point. You voting him doesn't change that.

You not saying anything about it at all. It's like you didn't give it a second thought.

PEdit: Active lurking. Not lurking. Your presence 24 hours ago felt really minimal though hopefully I'm not making things up here.

I think most people's presence looks a lot less in the last 24 hours with the thread explosion we have had, but whatever...

There does seem to be this weird thing going on where you and kise are suddenly interested in lynching each other. It hasn't gone unnoticed at all.

[sottyrulez]

There does seem to be this weird thing going on where you and kise are suddenly interested in lynching each other. It hasn't gone unnoticed at all.

See, why wait until now to say this? Why not say anything when I changed votes?

Mostly because individual scumminess still trumps anything associative for me in general. (You could be bussing each other for example.) Kise is by far the person I want dead the most at this point and I don't really care how it happens or who votes him.

[sottyrulez]

Nost's post basically distanced himself from every recent major wagon.

DO

NOT

LIKE

AT

ALL

[sottyrulez]

I see you've given up actually making arguments for us being scum.

[sottyrulez]

So feel free to tell me what a Sottyrulez town flip tells the town about you, Kise, Jason, and BT.

[sottyrulez]

^ That one is for nost.

[sottyrulez]

So feel free to tell me what a Sottyrulez town flip tells the town about you, Kise, Jason, and BT.

... He was obviously referring to the scenario in which you flip scum. This feels really awkward considering you're not on the brink of a lynch.

Because that's the only scenario you should fucking consider when you're arguing an

information lynch.

God please tell me you're both scum. You can't possibly be this bad.

[sottyrulez]

Oh, and I guess the information gathered from a hypothetical sotty town lynch is not going to be addressed by nost. My mouth is still wide open from both of them brushing that one off.

[sottyrulez]

Oh, and I guess the information gathered from a hypothetical sotty town lynch is not going to be addressed by nost. My mouth is still wide open from both of them brushing that one off.

Yeah so I have no idea how Town aren't seeing you repeatedly put words into mine/other's mouths, for example in this case pretending that what BT said was what I'd said. *Shrugs*. I didn't say we should lynch you as an information lynch I said, for other players, hence why I started with "pssst town", if the choice is between those 4 wagons and you then at the very least (though I obviously think you're scum so aren't justifying -->MY<-- vote that way) we'd get info from it in a way we don't get with other wagons.

You didn't say that?

I literally think scum is chilling out and watching town eat itself today, it happens, I get that, but really we could at least lynch scotty

and get a decent chunk of information out of it.

My mouth is still wide open.

[sottyrulez]

I just read that particular post again.

*You said you weren't arguing that we were a good information lynch.

*You then go on to argue about how we'd be a good information lynch.

My

God.

[sottyrulez]

I just read that particular post again.

*You said you weren't arguing that we were a good information lynch.

*You then go on to argue about how we'd be a good information lynch.

My

God.

Yeah I think, like before, it's pretty clear that my point has been made. I even used arrows to help you avoid this confusion, you're being intentionally obtuse, you're scum.

Oh so because YOUR vote isn't on the basis of us being a good information lynch, you don't have to explain to everyone else you're

trying to get to vote for us on that basis

how we'd be a good information lynch?

Got it.

[sottyrulez]

I can't believe I even have to argue this but...

So feel free to tell me what a Sottyrulez town flip tells the town about you, Kise, Jason, and BT.

... He was obviously referring to the scenario in which you flip scum. This feels really awkward considering you're not on the brink of a lynch.

When you're making any kind of argument for an information lynch, (setting aside the semantics of whether nost is arguing it as justification for his own vote or to get other votes on us.) it should be clear what kind of information you're looking to gain from either flip, not just the flip you're assuming you're going to get.

[sottyrulez]

2079 was twitchworthy.

... and I'm waivering on BT anyway. (CDB moving makes that lynch increasingly unlikely regardless now.)

Anyway.

Unvote: Vote: Ser Arthur Dayne

[sottyrulez]

I believe that's lynch -1 as well.