MINI 1423 Dark Souls: Prepare to die....YOU DIED

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Vote: SaintKerrigan

Obv not hollow.

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Wow, this blew up fast.

Unvote

-- I don't think SK's move was anything other than a joke response to my vote. I have no thoughts on SK's alignment yet.

Lev is looking weird to me.

First I'm going to throw my opinion on the the Kerrigan situation. I am inclined to believe naturally that she is town because the likelihood of pinning scum down on the first day on the first try is incredibly low. however, the self-vote makes things a bit complicated for me. I have self voted before when I was town. I personally see it as a strategy and believe with FT that scum is probably definitely on the wagon somewhere just hoping that there will be enough votes and then a quick-lynch without a claim.

however there is the possibility of SK being scum and using it as a ploy in its own right. I feel that is a bit of a stretch though.

So in fact it doesn't make it a bit complicated for you? Because you still came up with the same conclusion: SK is probably town. The fact that you suspect that there are scum on her wagon really doesn't make it more "complicated" does it? It makes it less so, if anything. A lot of this just seems like fluff that was made up on the spot.

and I don't vote anyone until later in the day because I don't believe people to be scummy yet. i use my vote wisely. I don't wagon. and i don't care if you hate that i don't vote. get over yourself.

You...you don't wagon? How do you expect anyone to ever get lynched? Unless you have a different definition of "wagon" as a verb than I do, it's a necessary part of this game and you, my friend, sound over-cautious, which is a scumtell.

Vote: leviathan93

Best place for my vote at this point in the day, IMO.

I would love to know why DDD didn't comment on the day's activity so far and instead tunneled in on a joke post he felt like responding to, as well.

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1. I've never meta'd anyone. I'm not big on it, especially since meta-ing me would itself be futile since I haven't played in years. My writing style and the very way I look at the game have both changed significantly. Plus there are plenty of other people who are into that and will usually provide links in case I do want to check it out. And if you have something in particular you want me to look at, you CAN link me to it yourself.

2. If that's your definition of "wagoning," sure, I get it, you don't want to vote for someone you don't think is scum. I do have a question, though. What if your second-place scumspect gets a wagon, while you're the only one voting your first scumspect? Do you change votes in order to achieve a lynch on someone you do think is scum, if not your first choice?

3. I think it's rather arrogant of you to assert that we can't win if we don't listen to you, although I agree that ignoring people is a bad idea and bad mojo and that we should pay attention to everyone, whether we think they're scum or town.

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I kinda sorta agree about nacho. What he's doing could be considered buddying up to Lev, and it seems to be working. If Lev is town I'd say that nacho is much more likely to be scum. I think the probability of their both being scum is very low.

I really don't know what to think about Lev with all this talk of his meta. I really don't want to get too much into that BS because you can always hide behind your meta--I was in one game with MafiaSSK where he hid behind his unhelpful, scummy meta and won the game for scum, so I'm leery about buying into that whole "he's always scummy" nonsense since then. I want to observe him more on the basis of this game, although I admit it might be interesting to see his scum meta.

My vote's staying where it is for now because he's still the best lead that I have. I'd love to hear more from Nacho and DDD right now.

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RF is scummy if Levi is town.

Why?

I buy CK's explanation; it's pretty much the justification I expected. It's not a pro-town or anti-town reason, but a pro-game reason.

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i am buddying up to lev, jesus
why does it make me scum?

While being respectful is always good, buddying up is anti-town. It's not that hard to figure out. Scum want town players to support them, and they also want town players to go down if they get lynched, which is good for buddying up. I think that your buddying looks more like the first scenario, as it seems too blatant to be the second. (Maybe I'm wrong, maybe it's WIFOM, but you have to know how to outguess people from time to time when you are scumhunting.) Town-aligned players don't really have a good reason to buddy up to specific players in the town. It's not a pro-town thing to do. So it's scummy. Get it now?

This post makes me very suspicious of Fermata. It makes me see that scum is in he or Nacho and i would choose Restfermata as the scummy one.

I don't see what was scummy about the way I addressed the Nacho business, and how it makes one of us necessarily scum. Care to explain the logic behind your statement, or is that more of your "philosophy"?

I don't believe in policy lynching. I'm happy with where my vote is because of the way lev is acting in this game, which is the only game I know and the only game I really think is helpful to look at.

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1. Because I think lev is scummy, and my suspicions of buddying only make sense if lev is town. I'm not convinced of that.

2. Because I like to process and comment on one thing at a time unless I'm going to commit myself to a long tl;dr full analysis post. And I don't feel like making one right now. I also haven't really gained any reads on that yet--kind of still waiting for DDD to come back with some actual reads, like I said earlier. He seems stubborn, which could go either way for me.

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No, I said there's no really good reason for it. There could be poorly-conceived reasons. I think it's anti-town and scummy, but it's my #1 scumtell that's being "buddied up" to, so that makes it a weaker tell for me. It's not the end-all of scumtells.

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lev, you're either misunderstanding or misrepresenting me. Nacho is scummy if you are town. You two are my top scumtells, but you contradict each other and I have even mentioned and acknowledged that. I think that one of you is town and the other is likely scum, because I don't think I'm wrong about both of you. You're scummier than Nacho in my mind, so my vote's on you. Can you wrap your mind around it?

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I'd also like to point out that people hide behind their meta, and I have seen players get away with it. I think that's exactly what you're doing, as you keep insisting that we all check your meta as an excuse for any scummy behavior. At the very least, if you always tell people to check your meta as town, you would have to also do it as scum, otherwise people who DO like to check up on people's meta WOULD be suspicious. So "I always act that way!" is not the towntell you seem to think it is.

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Cool, so anyone who looks at this game will catch you when you are scum from now on.

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Explain to me why I shouldn't think that you're bluffing, lev. Additionally, why do you say I'm "wrong" if you think that I'm lying scum?

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Even if I did look at your meta--and I might eventually if I figure out why it would be helpful and not misleading--if I looked at your meta, that is, and it squared with what you're saying about what you never do as scum, there is still significant motivation for you to change up your playstyle in order to benefit you in this game. Meta only really works with people who aren't really aware of the changes in playstyle that occur when they are scum.

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You know, crazy as it sounds to be talking about choosing honesty in a game that's all about lying, I kind of understand what you're saying right now. I think the whole honesty vs. dishonesty issue is why I really prefer being town and care more about games in which I am town, because I can have both. Even when I'm scum I try to convince myself that I'm town and forget the information that I know, at least during the day phase--even though it doesn't really work.

Unvote

From his responses, it's starting to look to me like lev is in earnest with what he's saying, and that he is legitimately scumhunting. I think he honestly found the dilemma between himself and Nacho paradoxical and that I'm scum.

Meaning it's more likely that Nacho is scum, so that's where my vote is going now.

Vote Nachomamma8

Instead of trying to "catch" me for something I didn't say, how about you explain yourself: What was your pro-town motivation for admittedly buddying up to lev?

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Iecerint, I really don't see how lev's being town would make me scummier, because as town I do not know whether or not lev is scum; I can only speculate based on his behavior. I can be wrong or right based on the exact same reasoning. I don't see how a fact I'm not privy to would affect my perceived alignment. You keep throwing this out there and it really doesn't make any sense to me. If you're trying to say that my accusation of lev doesn't look like a bus, fine, then say that.

DDD, great, you have your reasons for buddying, but I still think it's scummy and not pro-town. Maybe you're thinking of it in a different sense than I am, but the way Nacho was doing it looked to me like an attempt to take advantage of a player that feels he is being attacked, and getting on his "good side." I can see a scenario in which Nacho said what he said as town, but I can more easily see motivation for doing this as scum.

I don't know what to say about Empking. He seems a wee bit trolololly; it's hard for me to read players like that. As I've said before, I don't like letting players like that slide 'til endgame being hopelessly inscrutable, but I think on D1, when there are so many players around to water down the probability of catching scum, an actually actively scummy player is the best lynch. That's why I don't support the Empking wagon. He seems more devil-may-care than actually scummy at this point.

DDD, when people just make lists it's hard to figure out whether they are being genuine or not. I'd love to hear what you specifically don't like about those you suspect to be scum, instead of just naming them off.

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I see what you're saying now, Iecerint, and I agree now that lev is probably town. I also think you're town for that post--I was starting to think that you probably didn't have an explanation, but that one looked town to me, so you're off the hook for now as far as I'm concerned. As far as setting up conditional dominoes, it just sort of ended up that way. My top two scum reads seemed mutually exclusive.

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2) "Well, I get why it could be considered townish, buuuuuuut it's still scummy!" Okay I see why people want to lynch RF now.

HD, of course if you represent it that way it's going to sound like scum doublespeak, but that's not what I said, and I think you know it. What I mean is that while a town player might do it, I do not believe that it is a pro-town action.

DDD, there is a difference between teaming up and buddying/sucking up, but I do think the example you just provided is scummy. It's manipulative, and manipulation is scummy.

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No, I didn't. I don't think it's "townie," as you said. Just because town might conceivably do it doesn't mean it's a townie thing to do. You are twisting my words and it's starting to annoy me.

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Yeah, I'm glad you finally decided to bother representing me properly, thanks.

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Anyway, about PV, I think he has some serious 'splainin' to do when he comes back, and I will be very interested to hear what his case on me is, but honestly I'm happy with where my vote is right now. As for my wagon, anyone riding it can go engage in auto-gratification. Iec is the only person voting me that doesn't look a bit opportunistic.

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HD, twisting someone's words to sound like a wishy-washy contradiction when it actually wasn't is a misrep, plain and simple. Plus, when you say I'm "lining up mislynches," that's just another misrep, and it also assumes that Lev and Nacho are both town, which is not something that you would know...unless...

Unvote, Vote: Human Destroyer

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I just realized I actually misread this. I must have mixed up the two statements.

In addition, it wasn't the only point brought up against him; he's also lining up lynches, and that really can't be ignored.

I'm not lining up lynches, though, I'm just trying to determine connections or non-connections between people. I think Iec is town, despite his being wrong about me. I'm not so sure about you with your continuous defense of your misrep.

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Ugh, I know better than to call my suspects "scumtells." I just haven't played in a long time. I'm glad you think I'm town, but it smarts a little knowing that it's mainly because you think I'm a noob

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Only one of my reasons for voting "flopped." I still feel like HD's misrepresentation of me multiple times and his insistence that I contradicted myself when I obviously didn't is scummy. I agree with FT on this.

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I guess I'm just being lazier than I should be. Noted. Besides that, which I will admit, I tend to focus one or two things at a time; otherwise I get overwhelmed. Sometimes I type up a "special" post with analysis of each player, but I prefer a more focused approach most of the time.

A lot of my reads right now are gut. Lev seems a lot more townie to me than he did originally. You want to call it opportunism, fine, but I'm not going to keep my vote on someone that I no longer think is scum. HD "feels" off in his attacks, beyond the way he twisted my words.

As for HD-scum's reasoning, maybe he doesn't think it's as "obvious" as I do. I mean, there's a wagon going on me right now. Maybe he thinks it'll be easy to paint me as scummy. Maybe he's not thinking about it in those terms, and is just looking for a justification to vote for me. There are lots of possible reasons, none of them smart in my opinion, and very few of them pro-town.

To be perfectly honest, I actually forgot that I'm still waiting for that answer from you. So I'll ask that question again, now that you yourself brought it up: why did you buddy up to lev?

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and i hate hate hate when people are like "he's scummy because he's misrepping me!". it feels like they're just trying to be like "oh yeah i'm not scummy you're just making it seem like I was scummy!" which is a poor excuse to take an attacker out of the game.

Sorry you don't like it. Have you noticed that it's usually scum who makes that argument, or does it just "feel" like it would be?

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By the way, I do think that scum has got to misrepresent town--or at least twist their intentions--in some way in order to get mislynches going. Yeah, often they can just leave the town to their own devices and let them slaughter their own, but scum can't just bus 100% of the time.

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Past that, what I thought HD said was not identical to what Iec said. I'm telling you that I misread this:

In addition, it wasn't the only point brought up against him; he's also lining up lynches, and that really can't be ignored.

as this:

In addition, it wasn't the only point brought up against him; he's also lining up

mis

lynches, and that really can't be ignored.

I realize that some people will probably say that I am subconsciously reading the word "mislynches" because that's actually what I want to do, but whatever. I don't know why I read mislynches, but I did.

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Some quick thoughts before I head out. PV seems to be voting SK for the same reason that everyone is voting PV, which is sort of amusing to me. I could easily see both of HD and PV being scum and the whole confrontation that's going on being a bus. I don't know how to explain it, but I just played a scum game, so the science of bussing is fresh on my mind right now. It doesn't seem genuine. When I get back I'll analyze it further and try to figure out why my subconscious is raising red flags here.

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I'm sorry, I've had a busy weekend and today is looking no different. I'll post ASAP.

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Oh, for real, we're about to lynch PV? I'm okay with that, but it does seem a bit hasty to drop the hammer right after he comes back from V/LA.

I must admit I'm a little wary about how this wagon seemed to gather speed so quickly; nonetheless, his behavior has not been very suggestive of a town alignment, or else he is very lazy, even lazier than me, and I certainly haven't put enough effort into the day so far. I am willing to hammer -after- we get a claim.

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I was referring more to jason's last post, lev.

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Anyone (jason?) who wants to conveniently "forget" that we're supposed to let people claim before they're lynched gets a big fat sausage finger of suspicion from yours truly, no matter how PV flips, but especially if he ends up being town. When I'm scum I'm generally okay with this slipping the town's mind, and I doubt scum-me is alone in this mindset.

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I believe PV's claim.

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Why is jason surprised that PV's role is a demon that you fight in the game? That's the whole point of the flavor...that the town are the "enemies" in the video game while the scum are the "heroes" of the game. I think jason is town, though, based on the kinds of questions he was asking PV.

The voting thing doesn't mean that much to me because scum can also vote, so I'd be really surprised if they didn't have a flavored voting mechanism as well. Still, I buy it overall. I buy that VTs can have different role names and flavor. PV seems legit to me.

PV, I was okay with your lynch mostly because of your hypocritical vote on SK and the fact that you placed a vote on me and then forgot why. I also felt you were trying to post just enough to not be considered a lurker, even under pressure. My fears about you are mostly gone now.

Unfortunately, if we can indeed trust PV based on his claim, this will be the last time we are able to use this kind of information to our advantage, because if scum didn't have a taste of the town's role PM flavor before, they do now.

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I'm starting to think that Nacho is town, albeit very strange, cryptic, and stubborn town.

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Scum could have gotten fake claims.... believing the claim is one thing, but confirming someone as town is another.

Mmmmhmmm.

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You didn't google your own role first and see that you are also someone or a type of enemy that the main player fights?

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If Rest is town, I immediately snapped to chkflip because his unvote came at the perfect time for a derailment of the PV wagon, but I had a townread on tiger, so I don't think it's him.

Y'know what, tbh, I'll get back to you on this, I haven't really been thinking of much besides a PV/Rest/Empking partnership

I know Nacho asked you to and blah blah blah, but nonetheless be careful with that speculation on who's scum if I'm town. You wouldn't want to be accused of "lining up lynches," would you?

I'd really rather lynch HD than anyone else at this point. He's a strange hybrid between cautious and aggressive that has me worried, and his speculations on the proposed scumteam seem forced and after-the-fact. Meh, it's mostly gut, and that's the best my conscious mind can do to explain what it is I'm picking up.

PV, nahhh, let's not lynch him today. I'm leaning town on him now, not because he claimed VT, but because of the way he expressed it and the succinct manner in which he responded to jason's questions. I would expect scum to be a little more defensive in that situation. Thinking about it a little more, I guess it's pretty probable that scum do indeed have safeclaims, but eh. Call it stubbornly hanging onto my convictions, but I'm still not comfortable with lynching PV today after the way he acted when he claimed. Let's keep him around for another day and

perhaps

consider it tomorrow when there isn't someone like HD around to take precedence.

HD is my top scum candidate. Let's lynch him today, k? I'm like, 25% more certain he is scum than I am of anyone else. I honestly don't think Empking is scum right now because I can't see HD and Empking being partners. (Yeah, that's a different thought process than I used with the lev/Nacho situation, but I'm more sure that HD is scum than I ever was of lev.)

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I will continue to post, but I have to say that I 100% agree with FT about HD's posts seeming forced. I don't know what it is that I'm picking up on, but I'm glad someone else sees it too.

I do not want to lynch PV today. I have like, a 60% townread on him, so nothing overwhelming, but yeah. I'm not sure I agree that the fact that the wagon dismantled quickly is a tell about PV's alignment. If I were scumbuddies with PV and I were on his wagon, I would still be bussing him right now. WIFOM, I know, but there is a point where one glass of wine is actually preferable to the other. I wouldn't want to be the one to unvote my scumbuddy for a VT claim. So if PV is indeed scum I would look for other scum among HD or DDD, probably HD. I don't think there is much of a chance that VPB is scum. He, FT, lev, and Iec are my townreads of the day. As for TheOneWhoKnocks I really don't know what it says about him that he voted who DDD told him to. It's certainly not what I would do as scum or town so I'm a little perplexed by it. I didn't have much of an opinion on SK either, so he goes in the neutral pile for the moment.

I don't really understand the chkflip wagon. I was pretty sure tiger was town and chkflip hasn't really done anything terribly scummy to make me want to throw all of that away.

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jason was going to hammer. lev was willing to hammer. I was willing to hammer. We may not have been "officially" on his wagon, but there were 3 players who were willing to see him lynched that are no longer pushing for the same.

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I think if I were mafia, and PV were my partner, and we all had safeclaims, I would probably not be jumping off of my partner because he used his safeclaim. Then again, not everyone is like me.

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Thankfully.

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Oh, and add jason to my list of favorite town reads for the day.

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Still around. Been busy trying to get my portfolio together, but I have no intentions of replacing out. I will read and post today, I promise.

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I do want to point out though that town often does state the obvious in order to build a foundation for their argument.

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Unvote, Vote: Ms Marangal

HD is still scum, but I have to say I approve of this wagon. I did not know about Amished's tell but it makes perfect sense and while I don't know the theory on it, I do think it could be applied here. DDD makes the distinction that MM is not "apologetic." Criticizing your own slot in such a broad way is inherently apologetic, methinks, saying they contributed nothing of value to the game, blah, blah. She may not have said the words "I'm sorry," but it's written all over what she said. "Hanging a lampshade" on the behavior of the person you replaced seems extremely scummy.

I had a null on SK, but I feel much worse (better?) about Ms Marangal than I do about PV right now. I am about 60% certain that PV is town and I am not willing to lynch him today--not when there are so much better scum candidates around.

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MM, why did you claim so early?

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Also, if you're going to discuss my scumminess, I'd discuss it now instead of saving it for "later," because you my friend are at L-1.

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When did I say it was an absolute tell or my biggest scum tell? I don't think I ever said that. I said that I believe that town-aligned players never have a good reason to buddy up or suck up to other players.

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Yeah, except it's combined with a phrases like "I believe" and "good reason," which are subjective. Someone may think they have a good reason, but I disagree. I don't think there is a good reason.

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I don't see how someone could read the same game I'm reading and put HD smack dab in the middle like that, but eh. I guess MM is town after all. Still was a way better lynch than PV, though.

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I don't like the SK speculation one bit.

I can see where VP Baltar is coming from about PV. I'd like to examine that. Now, when I do this, I'm going to be counting people that said they would hammer him as well as people who actually placed their votes there.

That means myself, jason, and lev were "on the wagon" in an unofficial sense, although jason voted for PV even after the claim, so he doesn't count. Besides, we know he's town, so we can disregard him anyway.

chkflip and Nacho were the ones who actually took their votes off PV when he claimed VT.

So if VPB's assumption is correct, then PV's supposed scumbuddies are among myself, lev, chkflip, and Nacho. Is that correct?

Now, if I'm to accept this, I'm of course going to take myself out of the list. So that makes lev, chkflip, and Nacho. And lev and Nacho are among my top townreads. I am quite confident in both of them, especially lev. That leaves one scumbuddy that jumped off the wagon and supposedly "derailed" it: chkflip. I just don't see this theory working out from my POV. Not that PV and chkflip couldn't both be scum, but I can't imagine a plausible scenario where this wagon was opportunistically derailed chiefly by scum. Thus I can't look at it as evidence for PV's guilt. I'm not saying we shouldn't lynch him, but we should lynch him or not lynch him based on his scumminess, IMO, not on the way it "looked" that his wagon derailed after his claim. It doesn't add up when I examine it in more detail.

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It's not a terrible analysis. The main people who would have "derailed" the wagon would have been the people who unvoted him or the people who were willing to hammer saying they no longer supported his lynch.

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I know this is WIFOM, but I really can't help but say it. I am being perfectly honest when I say that I think I would have bussed the living hell out of PV. He was screwed. That's why I do not award HD townie points for voting PV. I should have stuck to my gut when I realized that HD vs. PV looked like a bus.

Vote: Human Destroyer

One of my town reads is probably the SK.

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Oh, wait, so are you saying that chkflip was some sort of vig that targeted DDD? Do we not get to see people's roles after they die?

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We saw DDD's role...also, that would mean there was no mafia kill. And it would also mean that the flavor of a huge guy with a hammer's kill is electrocution, which seems unlikely to me. I don't know about Iece's theory. His theory about me is certainly wrong.

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Well, I would have bussed him--he seemed screwed to me--but according to VPB I'm not the sharpest tool.

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Everyone,

I'm really sorry to have to do this. I didn't want to. I wanted to get back into this game properly. But there has been a terrible tragedy in my partner's family and I have to be there for him. I love him and it tears me apart to see something like this happen to him. There's no way I could even make an attempt to scumhunt in this state. I wish I could keep playing, I really do, but my heart is just not in it and I do not have the time or energy to maintain my commitment to this game.

I'm actually really sorry to just bail out like this.

Mod: Requesting replacement

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Way late on posting here, but this was a good game. I'm sorry for leaving. I knew HD was scum, though--I knew it in my undead bones!

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Yeah, I'm really rusty, that's true. At least I was able to convince you I was town one way or another, even if it was just because I was a bit of a blunderer! I'm kind of pleased with how accurate my gut reads were in this game, but it was hard to put my finger on exactly where they were coming from. I knew HD was scum, and I strongly suspected that PV and HD were bussing each other at one point. Because I wasn't as convinced of PV, I wanted to lynch HD first and then reconsider him, which made some people accuse me of "deflecting" from PV to HD, but I was just so damn convinced that HD was scum...meh.

I was never certain about Empking, but I didn't want him to be able to finish the game coasting like that, so I'd like to think I would have pushed for his lynch. So I think as far as my reads went, I was pretty solid on this game. My overall play kind of sucked, though. I was kind of trying to lay low a bit, and come off perhaps just scummy enough to not get NKed early, but not sufficiently scummy to get lynched in the beginning, either. I thought my abilities would be better saved for later in the game, so survival was my top priority. I wanted to get my reads out there, but I didn't want to seem too pro-town about it. That way if I claimed and my claim was believed, or if I got NKed, the town could look back and perhaps consider my cases more seriously. Obviously my larger plan didn't work out, because I got snatched out of the game prematurely. I tried to put a little hint in my replacing-out post that I was town, in a context that would seem more sincere than the average post. Perhaps that was a little sneaky of me, since the situation I was dealing with was in fact very serious--but I was still playing the game, even if only for one last post. You guys were right in guessing that I wouldn't have lied in that situation, though. That would have been too creepy.

Anyway, I had a good time while I was playing, and I popped in every once in a while to see how things were going. Great game, everybody.