/in-vitational 12: Mafia in #YOLOville - All wrapped up!

[Zachrulez]

Unvote:

Now to go through the monumental task of trying to read this game before deadline hits in 9 and a half hours.

[Zachrulez]

Thank god.

UNVOTE

I'll be around later tonight to talk things over more. Hopefully Zach should have some good stuff.

I'm still going to have to skim/scramble, but this at least opens up what I can do beyond the whole hammering to avoid a no lynch deal.

[Zachrulez]

Oh

My

God

[Zachrulez]

^ That is me getting to Vi's claim.

[Zachrulez]

unvote vote OGML

idiocy is a plague best dealt with early.

So idiocy is a scumtell now?

This is just an easy way to throw away your vote without even pretending like you actually think I'm scum.

I still don't understand the disdain for a Benmage wagon.

Ehhhhhhhhh I'm thinking that either Untrod or CES is the way to go today. (Shadoweh also being somewhat of an eh choice being a third preference.)

Liking Empire and Tierce for town. Tammy to a lesser extent.

Vi I was feeling was scum D1, but that kinda eroded away as day 2 rolled on, and then BAM with that claim. (Which is funny in a lot of ways because the role sounds pretty much like what I was using, and even more funny is that I replaced into the role that Vi is claiming a result on.)

I can verify that Vi getting a vanilla result on me is accurate, (and here I was wondering if this would be yet another game of Vi calling me scum...) but I'd stress that doesn't confirm Vi is town. Vanilla Cop does have potential scum utility in that the role could be used on the scum side to detect town power. (That actually being the case is something I'd file on the more unlikely side of things at this point though.) The chance that Vi is fakeclaiming is pretty much 0, as me not actually being vanilla would seal his fate.

So... uhhh, which to vote between Untrod and CES...

Vote: CES

I was going to actually vote for Untrod before I remembered thinking that there was no way the exchange between Vi and CES was town/town. Still think that. Vi's claim makes him much more likely town, so there we are...

[Zachrulez]

And yeah, I probably won't vote for CES.

Why not?

[Zachrulez]

I mean I remember you thinking Vi scum earlier so that would give you a town/scum take on their exchange.

Vi's claim change any of that for you? Do you think the exchange is town/town now?

[Zachrulez]

Zach - why were you thinking of voting UT?

Konowa's play struck me as underwhelming, followed by Untrod's play rubbing me the wrong way. (Though to think of it, I don't think I've ever played with Untrod town... so.)

I actually did have the vote typed up, and then I remembered my thoughts regarding Vi/CES.

Why not?

He's probably town.

What makes you say that?

[Zachrulez]

Zach, thoughts on Llamarble?

Best answer is probably that I don't have a clue. One more along the lines of what you probably want is that if I were to put a read on him at this moment, I'd say weak town?

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Untrod Tripod

Because Vi told me to. (Next scumread anyway.)

What changed with CES though? Curious.

[Zachrulez]

Okay so what is so hard about answering damn questions when someone you're town reading asks you because they're trying to get a better read on you and then to decide how to view your reads? Because when you throw out the crap UT did, it just looks like you're throwing out crap for the sake of it and that always looks scummy to me. Also, when someone is trying to figure out your damn claim, it's probably not a good idea to say they're being a dumb ass. It doesn't make them want to not vote you. And I could kick Konowa for not bothering to leave a message for him for why he tracked empire. Would that have been so damn hard?

Poor Faraday had to put up with a drunken rant right after the lynch, and I'm still annoyed. This game is making me feel rage.

I've decided all my reads are going into the grinder. Yep, even those super strong town reads on empire and tierce. I realize you're both busy, but real life is sucking me dry too and I managed to make waffles for breakfast, lunch and dinner last day phase. Please do something to stop this rising paranoia. kthnx.

VOTE: ces

Might as well start this day out like the others. Plus a little baaaa after the fact.

Town roleblockers suck, because there's no way the claims don't look scummy outside of a game breaking situation... wasn't around for the claim, but I'm not gonna lie, I wouldn't have come off him either.

Vote: CES

[Zachrulez]

Vote: Benmage

No question this is today's lynch.

Why Benmage?

[Zachrulez]

See, I'd just prefer to accept that Tierce, Empire, and Tammy are all town. That shrinks the lynch pool to a much more manageable level... and you know that would be awesome.

[Zachrulez]

This game's had two lynches.

Let's keep things down on the ground at least rather than all the way up in exaggeration land.

[Zachrulez]

I wish I knew like... anything about Shadoweh's meta, but the reaction to the town lynches was way over the top. I'm invoking Wiki tells here, but yeah... blegh.

[Zachrulez]

Would you have killed a cop over someone who possibly isn't a PR?

They aimed for a possible PR last time

, and this one was on someone worth NKing regardless. It's not always that simple. Also it was a roleblock Tammy, but I'm not sure how you could or whether you'd want to leave a trail of that.

Despite my lowly white girl brainstorming efforts I wasn't able to contextulize the rap about why everyone should lynch Benmage properly in my head. Am I the only one who thinks his hammer was scummy? Along with his ignoring of the burdening wagon on him, and the lame vote on OGML who wasn't close to taking off that day which kept people from noticing they were handing the hammer vote to the other lynchee?

Did we establish for certain that Johhog was the scum kill, and further that the kill was intended to power role hunt? I mean, I'm kinda in that spot in terms of making the leap on speculation, but what blew me away was the way you stated that as a certainty.

[Zachrulez]

Ok, remind me to never post again while drunk, those were really bad posts.

Shadoweh, I answered your question already at the end of the last Day. Bottom line is that I don't have any confident scumreads. The only read I have that is even close to a scumread right now is the N/OGML slot and even then I've been waffling on it due to the slot's interactions with CTD and N's replace out. I've made this pretty damn clear to anyone who actually bothers to read my posts.

The interactions with CTD were the only thing that kept me from voting the slot during the last dayphase if I'm remembering correctly. Now that I think about it, that's probably not a good enough reason. The replace out was a big fat null for me.

I'm really interested to see any reasons why Benmage is scum. I'm not inclined to suspect him for the hammer (If you put a wagon at lynch -1 you can pretty much count on him hammering it.) and I wasn't hugely inclined to suspect him even before that. If there's a real reason to suspect him, I'm missing it.

[Zachrulez]

Let's actually give a visual aid of all of OGML's mentions of Benmage.

Mostly an antiprod.

Why is no one else interested in a Benmage wagon?

I'm still reading things but this one is a layup.

Vote: Benmage

Unvote, Vote: CES

Reading Crash from d1, CES is among the people he never did much with (see Tammy's

773

for a full list). He ends up with two mentions:

Short answer: I haven't seen anything from him that indicates scum to me. This comment was mostly intended to get you and CES to do something more productive with your votes.

In the quote, 'him' is Vi, while 'you' is Benmage. Kind of coach-y, definitely a kid gloves approach. This is also one of the reasons I've been interested in Benmage, along with the l-1 'blame someone else' wagon hop on penguin. The other CES namecheck is here:

Johhog's CES vote is lazy and scummy. Instead of commenting on anything relevant going on or using his vote in a productive manner, he parks it on a player that has virtually no chance of getting wagoned based on his weak meta suspicion. Would vote.

Especially given the benefit of knowing Joh's alignment too, its a solid chainsaw defense.

Not much, I know, but enough for me to get off the sidelines, since people would rather whine at me than actually look at Benmage.

And no, I haven't finished reading the whole thread front to back yet. I'll get there.

I see CES suspicion explained to some degree here.

OGML what happened to benmage?

If you mean why did I take my vote off of Benmage, I think my post explained that pretty well. I'd still like to see him hang.

Yeah, you made

some

effort to explain your CES vote, which is more than can be said about Benmage.

Unvote, Vote: Benmage

The wagon I always wanted and it's finally here! Oh happy day.

Goes back to playing Pathfinder...

unvote vote OGML

idiocy is a plague best dealt with early.

So idiocy is a scumtell now?

This is just an easy way to throw away your vote without even pretending like you actually think I'm scum.

I still don't understand the disdain for a Benmage wagon.

Say Vi, could you maybe get on the Benmage wagon now? Pretty please?

Vote: Benmage

No question this is today's lynch.

Why Benmage?

Are you for real? Did you watch anything about how yesterday's lynch went down?

Or, as has been pointed out when other people keep asking me this same question over and over again, you can check out my iso. It's not very long.

Now let's see some more Ben votes, and maybe somebody can do us all a favor and vig CES tonight.

You still haven't given a single reason why Benmage is scum. (Referring to yesterday's lynch is ridiculously vague.)

OGML, you have given no reasoning for a Benmage wagon other than a throwaway comment in Post 1141. Why the surprise when people keep asking that question, when you are clearly capable of much more than what you have put out so far?

Reasons to suspect Benmage should be self evident. You express suspicion of him yourself. It just feels like people keep tossing this throwaway question at me as an excuse to ignore Ben themselves.

Next question: OGML, how would you define your scum play?

Completely godawful.

Hey, you know that's a pretty accurate description of your play here.

Unvote: Vote: OGML

Oh, and you'll notice that him and CES are suspicious of each other. Should this lynch pop scum and one should be tempted to lay town cred on CES for it or vice versa... don't buy it.

[Zachrulez]

Mrr. OGML: People aren't going to stop asking you the question until they feel you've tried to answer it again. Since it is detrimental to what I want at this point I would appreciate if you would try to go into specifics again, even if it feels to you like you're repeating things you've already said.

Not that there's alot of Benmage to go into because he's been so contentful this game. Rocks only give so much blood.

Answer it again? I posted his entire iso as far as Benmage mentions go. He never answers why he thinks Benmage is scum ever.

While you're here, feel free to explain to me why

you

think we should be lynching Benmage.

[Zachrulez]

I missed it too at first but there is a line in the middle bit of the post on me (#859) that does at least say something.

So there is.

That's like giving you a single letter to a wheel of fortune puzzle and then saying, how can you not understand what the answer is? It's OBVIOUS.

[Zachrulez]

Answer it again? I posted his entire iso as far as Benmage mentions go. He never answers why he thinks Benmage is scum ever.

I get why this behavior is annoying, but I don't get what it has to do with his alignment.
I will probably end up in favor of a CES lynch, but yesterday's scramble still needs to be reread.
Honestly, the main reasons I lean CES are BoP, PoE, and lack of town-ness.
I expect way more of him to an 'I doubt he would be this weak as town' point and most of the rest of the crew I have reservations about lynching.
He also makes the wagons make lots of sense as of my last checking.
VOTE: CES

OGML's posting is empty, and empty posting benefits scum play a lot more than it does town.

Tierce also touches on it here.

One of the issues with OGML is that his games are mostly pretty old. I'd say the most relevant ones are from Micro 53 to American Revolution as Town, and Playground Mafia as scum.

Town games: Micro 53 (this was the game I had as a base for "OGML is far better than this", which I remembered from months ago because I had discussed it with Empire), Author Mafia, American Revolution Mafia, Open 411, Mini 1141, American Gods Mafia

(don't hurt me, Faraday)

Scum games: Playground Mafia

Everything older than this is meta that is 2+ years old. A quick skim of the games above really doesn't incline me to do anything but vote OGML. :/ He was somewhat better in Playground Mafia, but there was still that rapid, pointless tunneling with little to no explanation, which he gives without any trouble in Town games.

Empire, if you could go through those a bit today/tomorrow/whenever, that'd be great. I know you suspect OGML, but I was trying to ignore that read because of what I posted above (and wanted to swat you when you kept pushing him), but yeah, there's no way this is investigative PR play, especially since the moment a Goon flips we know Zach MUST be Town.

[Zachrulez]

What kept you from posting all of that a week or more ago?

[Zachrulez]

I'm really interested to see any reasons why Benmage is scum. I'm not inclined to suspect him for the hammer (If you put a wagon at lynch -1 you can pretty much count on him hammering it.) and I wasn't hugely inclined to suspect him even before that. If there's a real reason to suspect him, I'm missing it.

Its funny, less I do the townier I appear. I'm going to have to screw you all one day.

That day is not today.

I can't help but think that Benmage is a capable enough scum player to go "okay, if I lurk like hell, I won't get suspected".
He also feels a little less aggressive than usual. Generally when Benmage is suspected when he's lurking like hell as town he would have popped in a couple of times with "MY SCUMGAME IS FLAWLESS", but nothing of the sort so far.

I do remember fighting with Benmage in white flag over my incorrect meta read of him there and if I'm remembering correctly he stated pretty strongly that he hated lurking as scum.

On the other hand, I do remember him bigging up his scum game in white flag, but the important part here is if that trait is absent in his scum games and present in his town ones. (In general I mean.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach same goes to you, you wanted a case and now you've straight up ignored it. Explain to me how CTD's drive to get N lynched makes any goddamn sense with N scum.

Logically the interactions don't make sense if you're both scum. Experience teaches me that I shouldn't ignore overall play though.

I haven't ignored your case. Still thinking on that. Don't mistake the lack of an immediate reaction for the absence of thought. If I'm moving, it's probably back to CES. (I'd be inclined to compromise on Ben, but he's not one of my main suspects.)

[Zachrulez]

Zach... in what universe could this possible be benmage scum (You're better than that).. Didn't you read WF?. I haven't been trying since D1, so ignore this temporary V/La....

Nacho strangely is echoing points he tried to make on you as scum in white flag. I'm pretty convinced that I don't really have a perfect grip on your meta, but one of things I do recall being prominent as a meta point is that you hate lurking as scum.

What I'm really chewing on is how genuine I find OGML's points. It's hugely association based so I am not hugely moved by it on those merits, it's more a matter of whether I think he actually believes what he's saying in the context of actually scumhunting.

I have this feeling in my gut that all the argument against you is "easy mislynch" related.

I think CES is scum mostly on the basis of inverse alignment with Vi. His meta as far as I understand is completely null so the only way to really read him is in relation to everyone else. So far his top scum reads have been whiffs and OGML if scum would be bussing what would be considered a weak scumbuddy or another mislynch. In either scenario I find CES town hard to swallow.

[Zachrulez]

N hasn't played in any mafia games since replacing out. The timing of it (during the Night) also suggests that that is not what happened.

I don't think this is accurate. This is probably really nitpicky but the replace-out message came literally with the lynch scene and he hadn't posted since #704 so I think it's more plausible that N sent the message some time during the Day after #725 (the last VC before the penguin lynch) but before the Day's end -- so basically somewhere in that 8 hour time phase, i.e., not during the Night.

You're right actually. The replace out notice came right as the lynch scene came up. On that note, I miss my own moderator format where I link the replace in point.

[Zachrulez]

Back to N for a moment:

Tierceflail

What is this? N has seen me as Town and as scum, he has been my scumbuddy, and this is all he has to say about me so far. I ask him for reads, he gives an empty Nacho read and doesn't do anything else. It's hollow, doesn't have any meat, and doesn't feel like the Town-N-pissed-off-at-the-game in general that I know and love. THAT N is participative, throws his weight behind what he believes in, does stuff. This feels much closer to the lurkerscum N that occasionally snipes in with a pretense at weak commentary.

Aw, I didn't know you cared.

I've noticed in quite a few of my games I've alienated people and gotten myself mislynched, so I'm trying a new thing. I'm not sure what you're exactly expecting from me (have you gotten my meta mixed up with someone else's?), but I can go through the whole thread and make snarky comments if you'd like?

This bothers me because N basically makes an excuse for his play looking like his scum meta. What this amounts to is an admission that he's playing to his lurkerscum meta and the explanation is "mixing up his play." to try to dismiss how scummy this observation should look to Tierce.

I don't really like the "I'm not sure what you're exactly expecting from me" either. It seems pretty clear what she expected.

This inclines me to keep my vote right where it is.

I still maintain the replacement thing is null.

[Zachrulez]

Now that I think about it...

Town: Zach (confirmed town via role result), Tierce, Tammy, [gap], DV, Benmage, Llamarble, OGML (maybe)

That leaves {CES, Nacho, Shadoweh}

I'm not sure the game is this easy though.

My list is actually pretty similar to this, except that I'd probably swap out Nacho and toss OGML in there, and I'd probably throw DV into the POE pile as well.

[Zachrulez]

Shadoweh, didn't you just vote CES on the basis of POE? Your reaction to being on the wrong end of Empire's POE list seems really blah considering that you seem to find POE good enough to vote someone else on.

[Zachrulez]

This game is dying a quick death.

Unvote: Vote: CES

[Zachrulez]

I've gotten a town impression from Nacho's posts, but interest in lynching him seems to be rising. Is there something I'm missing?

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, he's at lynch -1 now.

[Zachrulez]

A day that didn't make it to the day of the deadline would be a nice change of pace actually.

[Zachrulez]

I'll get back into this tomorrow (7:30 PM class got cancelled woooo). I've been thinking of stuff to post but I really don't have anything to say right now for some reason.

Anyone have things to ask me?

This is quite possibly the worst post in this game and one i don't think I have ever seen come from town.

I'm kinda in the same spot, where I don't have anything to add beyond what I've said already.

I'd be pretty happy if the day ended with a lynch of one of CES, OGML, or even Shadoweh. (The latter two don't seem likely at this point so...)

*Cough* Lynch CES *Cough*

[Zachrulez]

I get where you're coming from. I remember a post from DDD scum in apennine mafia waaaaaay back when that said basically the same thing. (He fell behind, and wanted to be directly engaged.)

I don't think Empire scum is possible without Tierce scum though. If I entertain the possibility of him being scum at this point I pretty much have to rethink everything.

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I would.

UNVOTE: Cogito Ergo Sum
VOTE: Nachomamma8

Get back on CES you.

[Zachrulez]

Just exactly how many people have voiced interest in seeing DV lynched, or the very least have him in their scum pool. Go on... how many?

I'd compromise there, for the simple fact that he's not a townread.

I'm going to go on record to say that I openly hate the nacho wagon. Sure it's possible I'm missing something, but no one's been able to explain to my satisfaction why he's scum.

[Zachrulez]

Another deadline scramble for a lynch.

Really guys? I don't even know anymore... just... fucking urgh.

This game needs more decisive decision making. We currently have like the opposite of that going on right now.

[Zachrulez]

None of Benmage, Nacho, or Deasvail seem particularly interested in supporting a CES lynch.

Nacho's support in particular could have very possibly seen CES dead by now. The thing I don't like about a Nacho lynch at this point on top of my read of him is that by not supporting it, he's making his own death more likely. (Unless there's a reason for doing that as scum, I don't see that as a particularly great sign... you know in terms of the likelihood of flipping scum.)

[Zachrulez]

Empire: before you consider anything else with CES, think back to Sherlock and how he behaved with his wagon + claim. He's Town, he wouldn't have an issue claiming

anything

as scum, but as Town he knows that a claim is unlikely to get him out of a noose so he's not bothering. Vote Nacho.

Have you actually seen this from CES scum?

[Zachrulez]

I hope people are actually around to make a lynch happen within the next few hours.

[Zachrulez]

Welp...

Unvote Vote: Nacho

===={}

[Zachrulez]

Unvote: Vote: Nacho

It would have had more effect if I did it right the first time...

[Zachrulez]

Yeah, I replaced in, got to Vi's result and then put it in cruise control.

It's funny how being confirmed town can sometimes make it hard to actually be town, and not lazy.

[Zachrulez]

I really need to figure out how to read Deasvail. His play never really stands out to me in either direction.