Newbie 1433 - Game Over

[Regfan]

Hey everyone, haven't played too much in a while so apologies if I'm a little rusty in advance. I'll be reading through this game in a few hours, have to finish of something first. If there's anyone in particular you want me to focus on more while I read through let me know in advance.

Also while I know it's obvious I'd rather if no one put anyone to L-1 before I finish catching up. On that note:

Unvote

[Regfan]

I'll start via going through the people I'm fairly confident are town

(If you're interested I do a skim read through of the thread to attain context for everything, then a deeper read to make sure I have the correct order of events for most things, then I ISO players pretty much aiming to go through people I got solid town reads from when reading the thread since I'm generally most confident, accurate and able to explain them first and then progressing to people I have more difficulty with.)

I didn't like

Ree's

initial attack on Satan in Post 30 and Post 38 and had a scum read on him for it since it read as scum jumping opportunistically on an upcoming wagon. That said his explanation in Post 105 and Post 116 fits contextually and has a great deal of town motivation behind it. I think posts like his Post 320 of "You'll be amazed at what I've found, certain 2 of you are town" come from town significantly more than scum, scum don't like to solidify people as town since it minimizes their mslynch pool and inside a newbie with only 9 players and 7 town players scum cannot afford to close of openings in terms of who they can mslynch later or not. And furthermore the statement in Post 326 reads as massively genuine and something I'd say (I rate my town play much much higher than my scum play) and something I struggle to see scum saying. So yeah, pretty sure Ree's town.

Fuzzys

thoughts read as very transparent in that he's saying exactly what he's thinking and that's something that's near impossible for scum to fabricate and a massive town tell. For instance his thoughts in Post 104 matched mine re; Ree's initial insistence of Satan being scum reading as opportunistic and his constant moving the floor to others to comment on his reads comes across as town. Hist Post 124 is another example of this. Something else I've noticed is that he's constantly calling players "bad town" or "easy targets" and it's not just one player, I think he's said that about 2Pac, Null, Run and Satan and it's actually a town-tell in that scum need mslynches, they can't call townies that are playing bad town since it makes it hard for them to win. And while it's possible it's him defending his partner that'd only work in one case. So yeah, that alone is a fairly solid town tell. And Post 198 is another example of complete transparency. So I'd add him in the town section too.

Sthar's

reaction-test attempt in Post 166 is insanely town; I don't think he'd throw himself in the spotlight that quickly after replacing in as scum and I can see a lot of town motivation from it (Getting a solid read on someone he had a scum read on), the elaborated explanation in Post 189 matches that too. The idea that he can get a read on people that attack him in Post 201 makes sense and is something I flat out cannot see him doing as scum. I also like what he's pointed out about Skelda in Post 321 and I'll go into that in more detail soon. So yeah, add Sthar to the sure-fire town pile.

Ranaweys

vote on Satan in Post 16 is entirely understandable to get a read on someone via pressuring them and Post 24 reaffirms that as does the further explanation in Post 36 and the comment about him potentially being scummy as town and unvoting due to it has a lot of town motivation (Scum don't care in those cases). While I didn't agree with it at the time I think the town read on Mr Ree in Post 39 is a town tell and reads as genuine as do all of the 'thoughts' in Post 184. The comment in Post 188 reads more as frustrated town having their FoS ignored (Scum actually prefer if the person they vote doesn't respond towards it). I agree with a lot of Post 203 and comments like Post 219 read as insanely genuine. So yeah, town too.

Taking a two hour break then I'll get to everyone else.

[Regfan]

Actually I'll do these two and then take a break and get to Satan / Nom.

2Pacs

gimmick is annoying but a complete null-tell (Someone pointed it out earlier; it was decided he'd do this before he joined the game via making the account and therefore before he got his role PM and therefore making it a playerstyle tell and not an alignment tell), it does make it harder to discern motivation from his posting though but for the most part his progression of reads come across as natural for instance his stated scum reads on on Skelda and Fuzzy in Post 127 and explanation of it in Post 138. Gah. I really can't explain this read that well at all sadly. I

have a weakish town read on him

but the more I'm trying to explain it to myself the more I think it's gut based (I generally trust logic over gut). About the only thing I can say confidently about him is that I don't think his interaction with Nom is bussing at all and if one of them flip scum at one point the other is most certainly town.

I completely disagreed with

Skeldas

Post 27, the strongest thing I took from the whole Runaway/Satan debacle was that there isn't a chance in hell they're partners. Satan seemed to be under the impression that you don't throwaway votes and therefore don't think he'd have placed a vote on his partner inside the first 10 posts of the game. I also found Runaways reaction towards it to point away from partners as well. I did like the comment of "not completely positive" in Post 31 though Post 52 is incredibly scummy, it's a massive fence-sit ie. "Some of his reads aren't that bad" vs "He's still super scummy" vs the prior "I'm not positive he's scum" vs "I don't like the idea of a quick D1 lynch", the whole thing reads as scum wanting to stay on the wagon without having a large amount of responsibility held on them for their vote post-lynch. Also the "I read my own ISO, what have I done" in Post 100 is very self conscious and defensive play that generally is done by scum. The read on Bob in Post 118 again is another fence-sit and set up of a potential mslynch ie. "Satan/Bob aren't partners therefore I'm not voting Bob because I'm boting Satan" it leads an opening to vote Bob if Satan flips town and reads as lining-up-lynches. The vote change in Post 143 ignores the whole "I think Satan is scum" vs "Satan/Bob aren't a scum-team" type of statements. I also think Post 199 is very appeaseish towards Sthar. The vote in Post 202 makes no sense; if he thought Bob was still scum he wouldn't have a reason to move his vote of him. It also ignores the scum read on Satan that he apparently had earlier in the game - the entire thing there reads as him forgetting he scum read him which is something that scum do insanely more than town. Again Post 263 reads as lining up lynches. Also his attack on Fuzzy in Post 268 contradicts his own Post 100. Also the "Stop tunneling on me" in Post 315 while calling him town and scum in the post reads as over-defensive. So yeah, I don't find his scumhunting, progression of reads and votes genuine at all. All of them read as opportunistic (Him voting who's suspected at the time via the VC) which is massively scum motivated and him forgetting his scum read on Satan comes across as a scum slip. I read a recent post of his saying that he had a noobtown read on Satan but if you re-read his ISO there's actually zero statement of such in the past. None at all. The only thing is "Bob/Satan aren't scum together" and a scum read on Bob and not a town read on Satan from his play. The whole thing is incredibly scummy and I think the

odds of him being scum are very high

and am kind of shocked that he hasn't been voted / run up yet.

Don't think I'm likely to get a stronger scum read on Satan or Nom as I currently have on Skeld so I'll move my vote for now:

Vote: Skeld

[Regfan]

The only completed game I can find of Skelds is Newbie 1409 where he was town and I don't think his play between here and there are similar at all. I think there he's a lot more logical, a lot calmer and his reads had a lot more backing. I also think his reaction to being scum read in that game in this post is highly different to that of this game. I wish there was a completed scum game to compare it again but the difference alone between that game and here strengthens my scum read on him even more.

[Regfan]

I didn't like that

Nominull's

Post 45 ignored taking a stance on everything had happened before it; which was quite a bit, not sure what to make of Post 46 but I disagree with Ree in that I don't think that was Nominull "Reaction-testing" at all, the vote in Post 61 continues to take no stances and is just a policy based vote. Nominals Post 135 is self-defence based and again doesn't state a single read on anyone in the game in it. The idea of "We must lynch X because he's ruining the intergrity of the game" is contradictory in the sense that nonne of Nom's posts have progressed the game forward or have had to do with stating reads or thoughts on players that aren't policy based and on 2Pac. That said Post 223 reads town in that he's not really afraid of being lynched if it provides "information" and I think scum would have stated something elsewise, Post 258 is another example of that actually. Sadly

I actually have a weak town-read on him

, I think his attitude is one of frustrated town rather than tunneling-scum. In Newbie 1347 he had a slightly similar approach in that he hated people not playing 'normally' and having a gimmick (He was town there) such as this post. One difference though is that he actually scumhunts and states reads elsewhere in that game. In Newbie 1375 again he points out that Bacde is potentially scum-gambting and wants to lynch him for it but again scumhunts (He was town there). In Open 495 there's less tunneling and he does fake scumhunt (He's scum there). So his play doesn't match either of his alignments to the tee but is slightly closer to his town play. That said his meta shows that he can scumhunt,

so Nom lets make this clear; I find your play just as harmful towards the town than 2Pacs, if anything moreso since he's actually contributing even if it's hard to understand at times. It's about time you stopped your tantrum and actually stated reads and thoughts

.

[Regfan]

Thanks for the welcome Rana; do you agree or disagree with any of my stronger town reads? If so can you explain why.

Exhausted so I'll get to Satan in the morning. Rana's vote put Skeld to L-1 so I'll unvote for now so nothing weird happens while I'm asleep.

Unvote

[Regfan]

Skelda, lets get this right; you're attempting to state that my scum-read on you and explanation in Post 335 isn't logical at all? People (Me in particular) aren't' suspecting you for "No reason" as you're trying to make out in Post 357 had you actually read my post you'd have noticed that and had you read my post you'd have noticed you weren't at L-1. If you're town actually read my post on you and explain what I have wrong. When did your read on Satan change to him being town, what made it change to him being town, why did you not state that your read changed to him being town. Explain your scum read on Bob in detail (What scum motivation is there behind his actions) and explain to me how everyones unreasonable here (Bar Nom and 2Pac).

Fuzzy, generally 'aggressiveness' is a playerstyle tell and not an alignment one, you'll find cases where people are more aggressive as town than scum or more aggressive as scum than town but it's a very small point (For you to state his aggressiveness is potentially scummy here you'd have to compare his town and scum games elsewhere). You seem to have only read part of the reason why I think he's town though, read it again and let me know what you don't agree with being a town tell? Also I can see a lot of scum reads from you and less town reads. So who's town?

Ranawey, what's I'm reading as townish about 223 and 258 is that he doesn't really seem scared if he gets lynched at all and in fact welcomes it. Sure it's possible for that to be some WIFOM-level scum gambit but I don't think it's the case. It reads more as a townie who wants to stick by his ideals regardless of what it means for him that said I need some legitimate content from him because getting sick of his current posts.

Nom, this is your last chance dude. I've read your other games. You can scumhunt, you can state reads. You're not doing it here. What's your thoughts on everyone (And please don't give me another comment about 2Pac). You're seriously not helping in the slightest right now.

Going to get myself lunch and then I'll go through Satan.

[Regfan]

I didn't like the quick change in Satans Post 6 of not wanting to random vote and put votes down since it's dangerous to his vote on Ranawey in Post 7 and it's important to note, that was only 3 minutes later. That's a really big change of stance to have in three minutes and I don't think it's really possible for him to believe that Ran's vote was serious especially if he's played 'a lot of mafia with some friends' as he states in Post 164 since it's really the only way to get into the game. The "just in case" element was weird as well and the explanation in Post 18 didn't really convince me. His Post 33 was awkwardly phrased as is Post 41 stating that you can't defend you're not scum but stating "so there's no point denying it" reads as an unintentional slip. I can't follow any of the reasoning behind his reads in Post 48, "2Pac is scummy therefore I think he's town", "Skelda didn't deny being scum" (Which contradicts with his earlier stance that town can't deny being scum), same goes for his read on Mr Ree. "Fuzzy is scum for acting logical" and "The people who haven't spoken are town" are also things that make zero sense whatsoever. The people who have posted would be the people that had an opportunity to get to the internet and the game at that point which isn't an alignment based tell. The whole "I do not trust you Bob" also reads as an attempt to de-credit. His Post 77 is massively scummy the "Didn't want to vote while being in the spotlight" is image concious which is what scum do whereas town don't care if they're being voted they're still going to try and lynch mafia in the meantime. His Post 164 jumps around massively, he goes from thinking Skelda is scum to thinking it's Mr Ree and Archae what's the worst about it though is that the vote in this post puts Bob to L-1 so really he comes back out of inactivity, changes his read and vote to that of the leading wagon and somehow loses his FoS of Skelda in the process. His Post 177s comment toward Sthar makes me doubt my scum read a little bit though.

WOAH, how did I miss this on my first read through, Post 267 is INSANELY scummy. Especially this part "You never were really scummy to my eyes. Pushed you a bit, but my main target is, as always have been since I made my first reads, Skelda." holy crap this is a scum claim. It contradicts with you know what I'll just quote them all in the next post.

[Regfan]

Vote Satan

x 10000000000000

Ree, change to this guy. He's 100% scum. I'll quote his scum slips in a minute.

[Regfan]

@archie

I am sure you would love Skelda's last post. Do you see the difference between that damn goat and me?

When I said you surely had noticed, without saying what, I thought you really had read it.

You never were really scummy to my eyes. Pushed you a bit, but my main target is, as always have been since I made my first reads, Skelda.

For things like that. He accused me, Ranawey, 2pac, Fuzzy and you Bob of being Scum.

@Skelda
So you basically have 4 players in your scumlist. That makes 6 combinations, but you have only mentioned four of them.
What about Bob-2pac, or Ranawey-Bob?
I don't think neither 2pac or Ranawey are scum. Fuzzy is right now under pressure, or he should be, so I'll wait until he gives some more info.

Bob is, for me, totally scummy.

So, I don't care. But I'd rather get Bob instead of Nominull.

I re-read the game from the start a couple of time, just to realize one thing: archie has been trying to get people lynched for a while. First it was me, with some kind of stupid explanation about me being nervous. The he voted Skelda, just after I did, because maybe he realized I was not getting lynched for now. Then, quickly, he switched his vote towards Nominull. But, the thing is that Nominull does not look scummy to me. He got annoyed by 2pac's sick rhymes, but hey, not everyone likes it. But, it's true I'll be glad to see his reads.
And archie just insists. Somehow, all of this makes me put my FoS on you @archie , and so, my vote.

unvote

VOTE: Archaebob

And, Mr_Ree, I dislike your early push on me. I can believe it was a RT, or I can choose to think that is a cover for an actually intended lynch. You and archie were the first ones to start the wagon. And when Skelda mentioned the doubts he had about archie, you quickly defended him, saying that "if he was mafia, he would have pushed for a Satan early lynch". I can't buy that.

Right now, I think you both are scum partners.

Now the above is what you call a scum slip. We're lynching Satan today. He went "Bob is really scummy, 'lists reasons he thinks Bob is scum", "We're lynching Bob today", "Bob is super scummy to me", "Bob man, I never thought you were scummy in my eyes".

[Regfan]

Nom, no lynching is not even a consideration at this point so that entire angle of conversation is pointless. Also please stop ignoring me. I want some reads and thoughts from you, you're not incompetent and your previous games show that so please actually help here (Notice everyones getting frustrated by your lack of assistance?). Also I suggest you read Post 363 and Post 365 now and let me know your thoughts on them.

[Regfan]

Yes and it originated with you stating that we can consider a compromise lynch at the end of the day and we're not exactly there yet so it's not really worth talking about.

And please please please stop ignoring my request; I want some reads and thoughts from you, especially on Satans scum slip.

[Regfan]

A few days is plenty of time and how can you complain about "Low activity" when you're not actually doing anything. Jesus christ, can you read my posts on Satan and state your thoughts on it please or state your reads on someone that isn't 2Pac because this is becoming a joke.

[Regfan]

Compromise lynches are essentially a back up plan in that if we don't agree on anyone with a day to go until the deadline we do that. End of discussion that topic.

Fuzzy, how come you didn't comment on Satans scum slip that I elaborated on at all?

[Regfan]

The idea isn't to only respond to things that revolve around you or the one or two people that you're currently 'focusing on' though, the idea is to comment on anything that you get a read based around and I don't believe that you have 'no opinion' on what I pointed out about Satan.

And if you're really going to only comment on direct questions to you; Do you agree that Satan stating that he didn't find Bob scummy while there's absolute proof that he did in 3 or more quotes of his is incredibly scummy? The scum motivation is simply that he wanted to distance himself from an incorrect wagon that he was pushing alongside with him an attempt to buddy up towards Bob with there being no town motivation at all.

[Regfan]

You don't have to comment on every post; merely those that state information that are "new" to you and new stances since they add reconsideration to the game. I explained what the scum motivated behind his actions were earlier, distancing from prior reads and an attempt at appeasing - I can't see any town motivation to pretending you didn't FoS the person you pushed on and said were very scummy and wanted to lynch them while stating there's a high chance they flip scum at all. Really the entire thing is something that only makes sense from scum ergo being a scumslip.

[Regfan]

2Pac, I'll try and cut down on walls from hereon out, mainly just do it when I catch up since there's a lot in my head that I want to get down. What about Satan means "newb" rather than scum? Because I see no town motivation for his entire actions 3but lots of scum. Also keep in mind that he says he plays with friends which I'm guessing means IRL. In IRL mafia you can state something then pretend it never existed because there's no log and record of it occurring which means as scum he would likely do something like this. Not to mention if he had only briefly FoS'ed Bob him claiming to have never read him as scummy would be understandable but there's multiple instances of him stating he's confident he flips scum. There's also him voting Bob at L-1 which is opportunistic and bandwagoging and if he really didn't find him scummy like he's claiming he wouldn't have put him to L-1.

Also one thing I want to note before I forget, I really really don't think the interaction between Satan and Skelda are partners at all. The entire push and argument between each other heavily points against it. That means that if Satan flips scum which I'm pretty sure he will then Skelda is sadly town.

[Regfan]

Skelda, it's sad because bar interaction based things I have a scum-read on you and I don't exactly like to be wrong. Also I'm pretty sure Ranawey is town and while I don't like 2Pacs explanation for not voting Satan right now I don't think his Nomni vote is that idiotic given that Nomni is intentionally avoiding posting content; that said I want him to explain how Satans actions make more sense from newbtown than newbscum (Because they don't).

Fuzzy, it would increase the odds of him being town significantly.

Nominull, being away from the game from three days means nothing; for instance Sthar hasn't posted for almost that long. You're really only discussing useless an irrelevant things that solely revolve around 2Pac.

If you're not going to play and continuously avoid actually doing anything why don't you replace out and let someone who wants to play have the slot?

[Regfan]

It's not about whether we believe it or not. It's about giving us something to read you from, giving us something to understand your head-space from. You're not doing that and he actually is albeit not that well. Right now you're acting like a fucking two year old "Nananananan I won't do anything because someone I don't like won't do anything nanananna". Start playing or replace out.

[Regfan]

Number of posts is meaningless, someone can have 5 posts but have more content than someone with 80 posts. It's about the quality, not the quantity. And the only opinion you've been stating is that we should lynch 2Pac with your reasoning largely being policy-based and playerstyle related to alignment related. You haven't' commented on anyone in the room, stated zero real scum-reads other than 2Pac and stated zero town reads.

The worst part is that your prior games show that you know better and know how to scumhunt. So please fucking start doing it.

[Regfan]

Okay, answer me this then; How is him not posting for three days any different to the following situations:

1) Mr Ree not posting from the 13th to the 16th
2) Sthar not posting in the last 3 days
3) Skelda not posting from the 18th to the 20th
4) Satan not posting from the 12th to the 15th and from the 18th to the 20th

The answer is that it isn't any different and you're fabricating reasoning to continue pushing towards 2Pac for what really is a policy lynch. And what about his posts do you read as fluff other than his rap-sections because there is actual stances and reads in his ISO. None in yours though.

[Regfan]

Hunting any scum but 2Pac would be to the town's detriment, and I don't believe in hunting town. So I'm sort of stuck.

Both of these are wrong. I'll explain;

1) Focusing solely on one person creates tunnel vision, tunnel vision leads towards not being able to look at information objectively which leads towards more mslynches. Not just that, focusing solely on one person creates less shared information in the town which leads to less agreements about lynches. It also means you can miss when scum slip up elsewhere and therefore lead to more town loses. So focusing and only reading one player for alignment related tells is a dreadful idea. And trust me, I have a lot of experience on multiple mafia sites and like to think my town game is relatively strong so if you're going to take one thing on board is that's focusing on one person is a bad idea.

2) While there's the argument that holds some ground in that "Stating town-reads helps mafia decide who to kill or who on to kill" the benefits outweight the negatives massively. I'll elaborate; Stating town-reads allows A) People to understand where you're coming from more thereby allowing them to get a better read on you, getting a better read on you allows less mslynches B) Allows people to consider others from a different point of view and thereby allows them to reassess and go "Oh, X has a good point on that, Y might be town" which increases unity in town reads which helps a lot. C) It allows there to be process of elimination used. If you can agree on 3-4 players being town the odds of lynching mafia increase massively. D) Allows people to have your reads if you die which means you can leave your thoughts and mark on the game. Also about the disadvantage mafia generally know already who is and isn't likely to be lynched therefore outting the reads in the public doesn't really do any harm.

---

Look I'm not going to argue that continuously lurking and not being in the game isn't scummy because in truth it is, also I just checked Satan and 2Pacs profile and both logged on last night and didn't post. I also checked this is both of their only games. That means they logged on, read the thread and didn't post. It also means they logged on, saw they were voted and didn't post. That's actually a relatively strong scum tell but I think you're just tunnel-visioning 2Pac a little too much and not paying enough attention elsewhere. For instance please take a step back for one second (Please, I'm trying to work with you here) and read and comment on Post 363 and Post 365 because I've caught Satan in a 100% lie here and one that makes zero sense coming from town but a lot coming from scum. Also 2Pac blew it of as him being "newb" and not "scum" with zero reasoning so if you're as confident as you claim you are about 2Pac being scum then that makes Satan a super likely partner to him with him attempting to defend his partner with terrible reasoning and not comment on the case. So yeah, please do one thing for me and read those posts and actually converse with me about it.

Also pretty sure Nominull's town from the last few posts. In fact super sure. Which means Ree/Sthar/Nominull/Ranway/Fuzzy are all town. Which leaves scum inside of [Skelda, Satan, 2Pac] and I don't think Satan / Skelda work as a scum team at all and given Satans scum slip that means it's Satan + 2Pac in all probability. So Nominull, can we lynch Satan today and when he flips scum I'll work with you tomorrow to lynch 2Pac?

[Regfan]

Nominull, Satans not scum because Mr Ree is town or because Skelda isn't partners with him or anything to that extent.

Please read the link I gave you.

Also I never said that Ree is a "Good townie", merely that he considers himself as one; I've never played with him before. Also I put trust in my town reads because I'm generally fairly pin-point and spot on with them.

If you need a summary why Satans scum here's a quick one;

Satan had a scum read on Skelda. Suddenly a wagon formed on Bob. Satan suddenly has a scum read on Bob and votes him putting Bob to L-1. He says that Bob is really scummy and makes a case on Bob. Satan says that he's positive that Bob is flipping scum and says he wants a Bob lynch. The Bob wagon starts to vanish. Satan changes his vote back to Skelda.

Satan says that he never really found Bob scummy and that Skelda was his strongest scum read all along.

The underlined is a confirmed lie and proves that his vote on Bob was to push a mslynch.

Glad you actually read it.

[Regfan]

Ree, I'm pretty damn positive that Nom's town. His last two pages worth of posting has been incredible sincere.

Anyway fully catch up and then vote Satan.

[Regfan]

I'll give you a quick summary as to why I'm pretty sure he's town Ree:

1. In Post 209 he openly admits that his play is stupid nonsense and stated that it's true that he shouldn't get away with it and neither should 2Pac. I don't see scum openly stating "Yeah, I can see you lynching me but you should lynch him too", they'd be more defensive than that. The phrasing of his Post 223 is a rather solid town tell, he's really not scared of being lynched at all and considers him getting run up (And reads gained by it) or 2Pac run up (And his scum read voted) as win-win. I don't think scum would see it as that at all. On the same note his Post 258 is town. Scum don't say "

This town is broken, absolutely broken. If you won't lynch me for this, why would anybody, ever, bother to play if they were scum? If you can't use social enforcement mechanisms you can't win; the whole design of the game is "social enforcement mechanisms vs. bad actors". I want to win as much as the next guy, but I know that with this attitude we won't. So I'm taking heroic measures to try to change your mind.

" at all.

2. If you look at his prior games he shows that; 1) He can scumhunt as town 2) He can fake scumhunting as mafia and 3) He gets frustrated by players like 2Pac as town. So while I don't think he's done a lot of 1) his play here is much closer to his town meta than his scum meta. And I think when getting flak for his attack he'd have reverted to doing 2) as mafia here and he hasn't, he's stuck to his guns.

3. I think his posts show that he legitimately believes that lynching 2Pac is in our best interest and find Post 399 very genuine.

[Regfan]

It really depends on how you use meta, if you compare only a persons game here (X) with a town game (Y) and state "X is different to Y therefore he's mafia here in X" you're not using it correctly. To be able to assess whether meta has any real merit or not you need to really be able to compare a town and a scum game so you can see how they act as both alignments. Also the more completed games they have and the more you read through the more reliable the meta is. Really though what I mainly use meta for is to find an indicator on what sort of skill level a player is so I can assess are they smart enough to do A or B as mafia or not. And in Nom's case his play here resembles his town a lot more than his scum and his scum shows he knows how to fake scumhunt therefore his actions here make more sense as town than scum.

The larger reason I think he's town isn't meta though; I think him stating that he's fine getting lynched if it means that 2Pac gets lynched and that he's taking heroic measures to see his point of view is insanely town.

[Regfan]

Nom, scum cannot explain scum slips because there is nothign to explain, they messed up so all they can do is blame it on something else like 'aggressiveness' 'newbie' which he's attempting to do. If he was town he'd actually be able to explain the whole thing logically and he hasnt'.

@Regfan So, basically, I am scum because my real intentions are a fake. My vote on Bob, did it actually put him at L-1? Didn't notice. I'd probably haven't done it if I had knew about it.

The point is, I really never thought he was scum.

You are the living proof of him being town. I might be bad, but not scum. However, I don't think I am going to change your mind. Your read is very solid. I deserve to be lyched as much as Skelda, for my behavior is not transparent enough. So let me propose this. Let's lynch him. Maybe when he turns scum you will believe in my innocence. Maybe you won't. Please, reconsider your read.

Again, there is undeniable proof of you stating that you think he's scum. Not just think he's scum,

there's undeniable proof of you stating you are very confident that he's scum

see Post 177 you state the following about Bob:

"I mean, if you managed to get him hammered, and he was indeed scum(because I firmly believe it)"

so you continuously attempting to deny that fact is you being scum, there's no town motivation for lying and denying your actions. There is scum motivation however.

@Regfan; You haven't stopped posting walls even after you been caught up,

What is worse is that all your reads are based on associative tells and meta, sup?

If Nomiscum is so "sincere" like you claim, Why hasn't he scumhunted for like, lets see, oh yeah, the whole game, Better to policy lynch then get information? Yeah right, this punk playa is scum with no hesitation.

Also 'splain time for we the town nation, How bout' you 'splain Satan's scum motivation?

The bolded is absolute bullshit

and a massive attempt to decredit me and my reads

, the only read of mine that's based on meta at all is Nom, that doesn't mean that "all my reads are based on meta" and my read on him isn't purely meta. I have zero reads that are based on assositive tells. None. I have associative tells I'm considering for post-lynch but none that are swaying who I want to lynch. Really you're attempting to attack me here while being very vague and lying. I've explained why I think Nom's playing the way he is; He gets aggravated by people not playing 'correctly' and wants to lynch you to remove a distraction plus thinks your scum.

Oh and I have explained for the whole nation what the scum motivation is for Satans post 3-4 times. I've done it over and over and over again. You said "it's newb and not scum", I asked you howso and you never explained, you just turned the question back on me without answering. You're really just strengthening the fact that when Satan flips scum you become super super likely scum.

[Regfan]

Also we're not taking this to 1 day to the deadline so it creates potential for crazy confusion and things that we don't want to happen.

Satan, it's claim time.

[Regfan]

Sigh. This is just becoming really really annoying. I'll explain why you're being an idiot in an hour Ree, have to get dinner sorted first.

[Regfan]

I don't think Nom's Post 445 is a scum slip in any form whatsoever, it's pretty clear that he thinks that 2Pac won't be lynched while there's distractions in the game and I think he treats Satan as one at the moment therefore he thinks post-claim and post-lynch 2Pac would get more attention. It fits completely with the context and everything else he's said.

Ree, his Post 449 is him saying "If you're good at this game as you claim you are then you wouldn't have a scum read on me so by your own claims you'd have to be scum here". That's a line of logic that's more natural to town than scum (It's similar to Runaweys "Regfan is too townie, he might scum" - it's logical fallacies but things that come from town only pretty much). Also lets run through this slowly: What about the case on Satan do you think is wrong. When answering this remember the following facts:

1) I replace in, I state a scum read on Satan. I point out a scum slip on Satan.
2) Satan logs on, views the thread, doesn't post, doesn't refute this.
3) People start voting Satan, he gets to L-2.
4) Satan then logs on (1-2 days after logging on reading my posts) and then goes "I'm aggression newbie!"

This is not the hallmark of town at all. It's what scum do when they're up against a corner and if needed I can point out many identical situations. First one that comes to mind (I'm Yesterday in the game), I replace in catch a Deckard slip in this post, he comes online views the thread, doesn't respond, people vote him he does this here, he continues getting pushed and self-hammers at the end.

Also with your whole "We get more interaction information from a Nom lynch" in Post 453 is flawed in that we're aiming to lynch scum, not aiming to lynch the person that gives us the most information. Also your entire proposal ignores the fact that a Nom town lynch would also give us nothing and that a Satan scum lynch would clear Skelda and make 2Pac very likely scum so it does just as much "information" wise.

I'll get to 2Pac in a minute.

[Regfan]

Then we get to 2Pac. Stop for a second and slowly read through his Post 437, he attempts to discredit my reads by stating they're all meta based (1 read of mine only involves meta and it's only a part of it not the whole thing) and stating that it's all association based reads (I have notes about who fits with who and who doesn't but all my

reads

have nothing to do with interactions). He really blatantly lies in the post. Also notice the following:

1) I state a massively detailed and explained scum read on Satan pointing out a scum slip.
2) In Post 379 he states that he reads the case as 'newb' rather than scum.
3) In Post 385 I ask him why he thinks the case points to newb rather than scum.
4) In Post 437 he evades answering that question and instead tries to turn it around on me stating "You got some explaining to do, whats Satans scum motivation".

This is not town either. This is scum who defended their partner, then when called out for reasoning on it they avoided answering since they can't come up with a legitimate answer and instead try and turn the question back on the person who asked it. And it's not as if I haven't stated what Satans scum motivation is, I've said it over-and-over again. This is scum decrediting someone that has the scum-team right.

[Regfan]

I'm questioning why I bothered replacing into this game in the first place now. Look, lets make this simple, if you think I'm town (And I think I'm very obviously town) then have some faith in my scumhunting abilities at least for one day and agree to lynch Satan or at worst 2Pac. You pushing Nom now and pulling Fuzzy along with you is just preventing there from being anyone at L-1 therefore preventing anyone from claiming until

just

before the deadline, that means that scum can easily fake a PR claim causing confusion and throwing votes around elsewhere likely with a lynch without a claim. It's a bad strategy; especially when you won't state what you disagree with re; Satan.

I don't buy that Satan didn't log on at all when it states he didn't, since they'd mean he'd go days without checking the thread when he's shown he's active and states why he's not when he's not available - and when he came back he didn't state any reason he was away. And again, it's not that he's claiming to be a newbie. It's the fact that he's not even attempting to explain his thought process and reasoning. Look at his play and that section again, notice that he states that he plays only real life mafia, then remember that mafia in real life mafias main tactic is denying have scum reads on townies that they pushed towards since there's no logs to prove they had it.

[Regfan]

Sorry I didn't make it clear playa, I think Satan made a newb-slip not a scum slip.

And I've asked

why

do you think it's a noob slip and not a scum slip and you've avoided answering it. What about it is understandable as town, explain that to me

because I see literally no town motivation for it whatsoever.

Your right I'm trying to downplay your latest reads, Because they suck playa, contrary to your first couple leads, Crying about "Why did I even replace", You sound like Nomiscum's mom, can't keep up with the pace? Mis-repping me, haha, I just gave you a prod, How about you stop being Nom's lawyer for a second playa and hop on the Winnebog.

So my "reads suck" when the only difference between my original reads and right now is that my town read on Nom has strengthened and that I have a scum read on you? And no, you didn't give me a 'prod'

you avoided answering a question I asked specifically towards you

and tried to make it out as if all my reads and reasoning are crap when you state that you liked my original reads which is where most of my reasoning is a

s well as tried to pretend I didn't state Satans scum motivation when I did.

[Regfan]

I'm a wee bit drunk and probably not in the state of mind to get to this properly so I'll respond to 471 tomorrow morning but Satan, town isn't a claim. A claim is a role like roleblocker or goon. So what role are you?

[Regfan]

So, so, so hungover.

I still need to read Post 471 a few more times, will do it later. Satans whole "A real claim, what do you mean" confuses me, there's really only two ways I can see it; 1) Town not really paying attention or 2) Scum that doesn't know that people get specific roles and therefore thinks when it comes to 'claim time' they just have to say town. That said Ree does somewhat have a point that Satan not wanting to switch to Nom is a town-tell, Scum!Satan would do so to save himself in this situation. Still think he's scum but not sa confident.

Skeldas Post 475 actually reads as genine and town and I remember reading that they lost their last newbie game as town becasue there was no lynch D1 so his demeaner here is really understandable.

Ree, I'm not lynching Nom. He's town. Very confident in that. If you think Satan is town can we compromise and lynch 2Pac?

Unvote, Vote: 2Pac

[Regfan]

Oh and Skeldas Post 499 is also town; "we need a lynch, even if it's mine" vs "I'll look into X if I'm still alive tomorrow".

[Regfan]

Ree, you're actually starting to piss me of a large part of the reason I joined this game was because I saw your posts inside the win % thread and thought it meant that you'd be highly competent as town but your play isn't showing that at all (And yes; I'm fairly damn positive you're town).

I have a scum read on Satan. I have a scum read on 2Pac. I think Satan and 2Pacs interactions work as partners. Satan not voting Nominull does read townish and does make me second guess my read on him (I still think he's scum but aren't 100% positive as I was before) and since you don't want to lynch Satan it leads the only move to lynch 2Pac since I have a scum read on him and you never stated a town read on him previously.

And yes, I have stated why I think 2Pac is scum ignoring Satan - he's attempting to misrepresent and decredit my reads by creating bullshit like "All based on meta" "All based on interactions" and I've pointed out that they were lies, his response was "Yes, you're right I was lying, I wanted to make you look bad". Town don't attempt to make people look bad for no reason. Scum do. Then there's also the fact that he's been lurking throughout a decent portion of the game and recently stated a town read on Satan with no explanation (And this doesn't change regardless of Satans alignment). And no, he came into this game with the intention of using this gimmick that means he'd stick with it regardless of his alignment and regardless of the position.

I've literally told you why I think your scum read is wrong. I've told you how your reasoning is wrong. God.

[Regfan]

Look I'm not going to argue that continuously lurking and not being in the game isn't scummy because in truth it is, also I just checked Satan and 2Pacs profile and both logged on last night and didn't post. I also checked this is both of their only games. That means they logged on, read the thread and didn't post. It also means they logged on, saw they were voted and didn't post. That's actually a relatively strong scum tell but I think you're just tunnel-visioning 2Pac a little too much and not paying enough attention elsewhere.

For instance please take a step back for one second (Please, I'm trying to work with you here) and read and comment on Post 363 and Post 365 because I've caught Satan in a 100% lie here and one that makes zero sense coming from town but a lot coming from scum. Also 2Pac blew it of as him being "newb" and not "scum" with zero reasoning so if you're as confident as you claim you are about 2Pac being scum then that makes Satan a super likely partner to him with him attempting to defend his partner with terrible reasoning and not comment on the case. So yeah, please do one thing for me and read those posts and actually converse with me about it.

[Regfan]

Seriously you're not working with me

at all

here. I've told you why I think Nom is town. I've told you what I think of Skeldas recent posting is town though there's a lot of his early game that I do read as scummy so if you're right about either of the two of them it's this guy.

So now answer the following two:

1) Why is Satan town (Bar him not voting Nom here)?
2) Why is 2Pac town?

[Regfan]

The truth is you're opposing a 2Pac lynch because

I'm

leading it and you don't want me to be right.

Want to make a deal? We lynch 2Pac; he flips scum you sheep me for the rest of the game or if I die you lynch Satan and if that doesn't end the game then perhaps Skelda afterwards. If he flips town I'll vote whoever you want tomorrow. Do we have a deal?

[Regfan]

There is no benefit to a counterwagon at this position at all. There's one day until the deadline hits, literally one day and we'd have to factor in 1) Having the person we want to lynch claim 2) Assessing the legitimacy of their claim 3) Garnering votes to move the wagon if we believe the claim and 4) Actually having people come on and given how people have shown they're not super active in this game that won't be easy.

And again you're ignoring me. You're not working with me at all. ANSWER THER MOTHERFUCKING QUESTION; WHY IS 2PAC TOWN? GO. ANSWER. Because you state you're defending you're town reads but you've stated no reasoning behind him being town at all. The entire reason you won't lynch him is because

I

have him as scum which is petty and stupid. I have given you facts, you're ignoring them. I have given you information I have attempted to guide you to get there and attempted to converse with you but you're not working with me at all.

[Regfan]

Also I didn't join to "learn" shit from you. I joined because I thought if there's a competent player in the room I might have someone listening to me for once. But nope. Isn't happening, instead you're being stubborn and refusing to converse and instead want to just sit around with a no lynch likely happening (And oh watch, it will or we'll have some blitz lynch in the last minutes potentially hitting a PR).

[Regfan]

Thanks Nom but I'm growing a little tired of replacing into games, being ignored, being nightkilled and watching loses. Or replacing in and not being 'trusted' and ignored due to it. It's not a fun pattern.

Ree, I'm pretty positive I'm right on 2Pac being scum here; solid scum read on him and a lot of town reads that I'd put a lot of money on. And the "70% of D1s are mslynches" isn't the case I've found (I normally die N1 or N2) but during D1 or D2 we have about 70% correct lynches.

But again, you're not answering me; Why is 2Pac town?

(Awaiting the case) And the concept of "Lets not lynch people who post sporadically" is a dreadful one since it incentives scum to lurk and means that scum don't have to be active, it's bad in theory and bad in practice.

What I want from you Ree is not much to ask; it's to work with me, talk with me about why you think my town-tells on X / Y are wrong. Why you think my scum reads on A / B are wrong. Why A / B are town and why we shouldn't lynch them. It's really not much to ask for. And I have "Enlightened" you as to what my reads are and the reasoning behind it, do you really need me to go and quote all of them?

[Regfan]

Also lets make clear how sub-optimal your "lets have counter-wagons!!" tactic is; I have root canal tomorrow and likely won't be able to get on (I'll try and get on beforehand though), who knows if Sthar will turn up or not and scum can strategically lurk to avoid a lynch going through plus decent odds others are busy too. So your tactic and plan here is likely going to net us a no lynch which is dreadful.

[Regfan]

I'm heading out for a few hours but really hoping I come back to you having re-read 2Pac and realised he's not town.

[Regfan]

Ree, I'll try and break this down so it's fairly readable, Your reasoning behind 2Pac being town are:

1) That you think Nom is scum and Nom is pushing 2Pac making 2Pac town.
2) That he doesn't post out of fear
3) That he's stated reads often and that his reads match yours.
4) That he has posted evidence for his reads.

I can't really say anything with 1) other than I think your incorrect read on Nom is ruining all your reads here and dude I'm like 99.9% sure of three things this game, those are that you're town, that Nom's town and that Sthars town so you pushing Nom here is making me boil with rage; I think Fuzzy and Ran are town too but there are small things that make me doubt it and it's nowhere near as solid as the listed three. I don't think 2) is relevant given that he hasn't really had any 'fear' to avoid from, only Noms pushed him throughout the day and no one has listened to Nom. I think 3) is a similar case to 1 in that I think your one wrong read (Nom) is really burdening everything and

there's actually a lot of contradictions in 2Pacs reads and thoughts

- I'll go into those in a second, on the same note I don't think 4) is true at all, see for instance him dodging explaining reasoning about Satan.

---

I'm not just saying "Sheep me and read nothing!" at all, I'm explaining all my reads and thoughts in great detail and telling you I am

very very

confident that I have this game nailed and just need people to listen to me and no, I'm not some noob or anything that doesn't know how to scumhunt, I'm actually really good at it and generally spot on - particularly when it comes to reading newer players.

A Skelda lynch is significantly better than a Nom lynch but again I don't think the odds are super high of Skelda flipping scum and really your reasoning for town reading and not wanting to lynch 2Pac are actually quite bad and generally based on you scum reading Nom. And again; I did switch to attempt to get a lynch.

I gave you some fucking leeway since you wouldn't lynch Satan and instead moved to 2Pac who you never stated a prior town read on. I tried to work with you. I tried to compromise with you. You didn't do anything for me in return.

And I'm calling your reads and play shit because they are; it ignores a lot of logic, it doesn't consist of you

working

with others at all. As to why I'm trying to work with you and get you to vote 2Pac or with me because 1) Skeld and Nom are already voting 2Pac. 2) I don't trust my scum reads to vote with me and 2Pac won't selfovte and Satans post above clearly proves he was never going to buss. 3) Sthar is afk so it really just leaves you and Ran and Ran will just vote when it comes to the deadline.

---

Satan, it's simple. I'm fairly positive that 2Pac is flipping scum both through process of elimination and a base read on him and making sure I get a scum lynched is better than doing nothing and standing around and letting someone I pretty much know is town get lynched.

[Regfan]

Here's why 2Pacs scum (If he's not lynched after this...);

1) 2Pac's Post 57 is a "serious vote" based around Nominull not reading a specific post from the mod (Not reading a post from the mod is generally a null-tell) but

the vital thing to note here is that there's no progression here at all, he maintains this scum read throughout the game

(Guess who keeps the same first vote as their scum read for the whole day; scum). In Post 67 he states that an OMGUS vote is a scum-tell but never comments on Satans initial OMGUS vote; this shows fabrication information to push a specific player rather than actually objectively scumhunt.

2)

Things like Post 81 where he goes "Gonna need to exlpain 39" or "Explain 79" in Post 99 are fake attempts to contribute,

they're empty questions asked with no reasoning behind them and no follow up afterwards. That's scum pretending to scumhunt.

3) In Post 99 he states that Bob is scum but in Post 127 Bob voting with him suddenly makes Bob town - that's fake reads. Literally no reasoning for Bob being town other than voting with him. In Post 106 he has a scum read on Fuzzy, it's not there previously and the only reasoning behind it is attacking 2Pac for lurking. He puts forward a case against Fuzzy in Post 138. In Post 248 he calls Fuzzy scum again. Then in Post 262 he doesn't keep his vote on Nom who he constantly calls scum, Fuzzy who he has constantly said is scum but instead, Mr Ree and lets look at his reasoning, it's becasue Ree called a post of Skeldas town and because he voted Fuzzy calling him new or scum. In this post he also FoS's Skelda.

So lets get this right; he calls Fuzzy is scum, Ree is scum, Nom is scum, Skelda is scum, notice how he's leaving himself a lot of people he can mslynch with the only person in the entire game that he's called town being Satan for one post and Bob for voting with him

Also note in Post 303 because Skelda ignored his FoS.

4)

In Post 379 my reads are "spot on" apparently but Satan is "newb" not "scum", I ask for reasoning behind it and instead in Post 437 he changes to "all your reads are based on associative and meta tells" which is an attempt to decredit.

He ignores the question I asked him, turns it on me saying "Explain his scum motivation" which I did do. I point all this out and

he goes in Post 469 that he was "purposely" downplaying my reads

pretty much because I have a scum read on him and remember these are the reads he agrees with and are spot on. That's what scum do.

[Regfan]

So lets get this right, you're continuing to avoid the question again; I know you're stating you read Satans play as newb and not scum but I've been asking

why

do you read it that way. And:

1) So you calling my reads all based on meta and associations when I had a scum read on you (Which decredits me) a 'reaction-test' isn't even remotely believable and again there'd be no raeson to reaction test me if you had a town read on Bob like you claim to have. So you voting Ree and calling him scum is a reaction test, a reaction test you never stated a follow up on or claimed that it was a reaction test afterwards? And similarly you calling Bob scum and not saying anything of his "reaction" or that it was a reaction test afterwards is legitimate. Nope. not buying it.

2) So you stating "I'm pretty sure you are town with your head up your ass, But your logic is way too shaky for me to give you a town pass." is you calling me town but you don't want to call me town but not wanting to lock yourself in? Isn't this pretty much the same thing you called Ree scum for doing; leaving an opening to go back on at a later point.

Oh and the biggest scum tell of all; I post my case on you at 8;05am, you respond at 8;22am. This means you logged on, read everything including my post and typed up your own in 17 minutes. No chance that's a coincidence, it means you've been lurking the thread for some time now without posting which is scum actively lurking.

[Regfan]

True.

And Ree, if you don't read Post 535 as town then I really don't know what to say. It's bleedingly obvious town. Also note the fact that 2pac responded to a case on him within 17 minutes, it's actually a massive massive scum tell. Please, please, please lynch 2Pac.

[Regfan]

Alright, I'm heading to bed. I'll check this in the morning before I go for root canal. Really really hope 2Pac is lynched by then.

[Regfan]

Fuck this game, there's a few people here I hope never to see again afterwards.

Skeldas reaction towards this whole thing is reeeeeeeeeeally town.

The fact that we're not lynching 2Pac now is abysmal, I went into a long detailed case on how he's scum and the guy that nearly never posts and vanishes for days at a time shows up with 17 minutes of my case on him having read everything and typed up his case in that time and you're willing to go "Oh coincidence". Nope, it means he was actively following the thread and choosing to lurk. Scum come out of the darkness when there's a case on them and there's fear of them getting lynched, that's what he did. Watch post-game everyone come in and state how 2Pac not getting lynched right now is one of the dumbest things ever.

[Regfan]

FOR THE LAST TIME, I'm not voting 2pac today.

I know EXACTLY what you are trying to do but I'm NOT falling for it. I don't have a high win rate because I'm wrong and I bow to pressure. I have a high win ratio because I catch scum and win games. I will not go against my reads. I believe in my reads and I think you are either scum or wrong here. Kill me tonight if you have to.

I will not vote WITH my scum reads AGAINST my townreads, no matter which townread you switch to.

Seriously? This is growing pathetic; you wanted me to explain my scum read on 2Pac in a big case, I did. When you didn't comment on what's wrong about it or how his response is insanely scummy instead you're going "Nope, not listening lalalallala my scum reads are voting him so I'm not listening lalalala" it's piss poor. And if you honestly think that I can even potentially be scum here and still maintain that you have a good win rate due to good reads then you're laughable; I've never been more obvtown in any of my games than this one (And guess what; Bob was obvtown too).

[Regfan]

Reg vs Ree and Nom vs Pac are reading like townfights to me. They're generating a lot of noise in the thread for very little gain. Who benefits from that? Skeldascum certainly does, Fuzzyscum might. I don't think Satan is scum, and I've got a hard townread on ran.

Actually no, 2Pac hasn't made a "lot of noise" so this entire thing is logically unsound. Please read my case against him, please ISO him.

[Regfan]

Alright, heading to my root canal thing; really hope someone hammers 2Pac before I'm back (And I might be too groggy to get to a computer after it).

If I die tonight please please please make sure that 2Pac and Satan get lynched at some point. Noticed a few odd things in Fuzzy in a casual re-read too so don't let him slide through either; I think 2Pac-> Satan-> Fuzzy wins the game.

[Regfan]

Got a few minute break, just going to re-quote this for anyone that missed it and for Fuzzy since he seems to be the decision maker here.

Here's why 2Pacs scum (If he's not lynched after this...);

1) 2Pac's Post 57 is a "serious vote" based around Nominull not reading a specific post from the mod (Not reading a post from the mod is generally a null-tell) but

the vital thing to note here is that there's no progression here at all, he maintains this scum read throughout the game

(Guess who keeps the same first vote as their scum read for the whole day; scum). In Post 67 he states that an OMGUS vote is a scum-tell but never comments on Satans initial OMGUS vote; this shows fabrication information to push a specific player rather than actually objectively scumhunt.

2)

Things like Post 81 where he goes "Gonna need to exlpain 39" or "Explain 79" in Post 99 are fake attempts to contribute,

they're empty questions asked with no reasoning behind them and no follow up afterwards. That's scum pretending to scumhunt.

3) In Post 99 he states that Bob is scum but in Post 127 Bob voting with him suddenly makes Bob town - that's fake reads. Literally no reasoning for Bob being town other than voting with him. In Post 106 he has a scum read on Fuzzy, it's not there previously and the only reasoning behind it is attacking 2Pac for lurking. He puts forward a case against Fuzzy in Post 138. In Post 248 he calls Fuzzy scum again. Then in Post 262 he doesn't keep his vote on Nom who he constantly calls scum, Fuzzy who he has constantly said is scum but instead, Mr Ree and lets look at his reasoning, it's becasue Ree called a post of Skeldas town and because he voted Fuzzy calling him new or scum. In this post he also FoS's Skelda.

So lets get this right; he calls Fuzzy is scum, Ree is scum, Nom is scum, Skelda is scum, notice how he's leaving himself a lot of people he can mslynch with the only person in the entire game that he's called town being Satan for one post and Bob for voting with him

Also note in Post 303 because Skelda ignored his FoS.

4)

In Post 379 my reads are "spot on" apparently but Satan is "newb" not "scum", I ask for reasoning behind it and instead in Post 437 he changes to "all your reads are based on associative and meta tells" which is an attempt to decredit.

He ignores the question I asked him, turns it on me saying "Explain his scum motivation" which I did do. I point all this out and

he goes in Post 469 that he was "purposely" downplaying my reads

pretty much because I have a scum read on him and remember these are the reads he agrees with and are spot on. That's what scum do.

Oh and the biggest scum tell of all; I post my case on you at 8;05am, you respond at 8;22am. This means you logged on, read everything including my post and typed up your own in 17 minutes. No chance that's a coincidence, it means you've been lurking the thread for some time now without posting which is scum actively lurking.

[Regfan]

Just confirming these are mine and that I'm now home (2 hour trip one-way is not fun).

Fuzzy, just remember to make sure you hammer before you have to go, I don't want to hear things like "Woops forgot".

This is Regfan - I can't log into my account since I don't remember my password (It's only on my laptop as autologin and "send password" seems to be broken for the site). I just finished my root canal and rushed to get to a internet cafe for this game.

Fuzzy, the situation is simple 1) I don't really have a scum read on you; if anything I have a town read on you but there's a few things I really disliked reading your ISO for instance your slimy change of read on Nom and really you're only in the above "Lynch" list as process of elimination. I'm fairly confident that it's Satan + 2Pac but if I'm wrong on one of them then you're likely the second in that I have really strong town reads on everyone else.

And 2) You're the only person to try and get to vote 2Pac. 2Pac won't selfvote, Satan has made it clear he won't buss his partner. Ree is being stubborn and annoying and he won't change his vote. Sthar won't change his vote because he thinks 2Pac is town for "Creating noise" when he hasn't done thta at all and everyone else is already voting 2Pac. So it's quite simple, you're the only person with a realistic chance of voting 2Pac and you

need

to do so. You doing this "Don't want him since it might be next" if anything actually makes me more suspicious that you're not willing to lynch him despite me putting forward a massive case on him. So if you're town here, stop for a second and think, read the case, then vote 2Pac, he'll flip scum and we can get Satan tomorrow.

Just over 6 hours until deadline, seriously Fuzzy you need to vote 2Pac here quite badly, you not doing so is just increasing the odds of a no-lynch occurring and you're not actually arguing that the logic on 2Pac being scum in my case is wrong so there's no logical reason for you not to vote him.

Alright, I'm going to take the trek home now. If the mod needs I'll quote the above post and this one when I get home on my Regfan account to prove that it's me if there's no lynch by then but there really should be.

[Regfan]

Just a reminder; Deadline is in less than 4 hours and when you vote it has to be a separate line.

[Regfan]

Sthar, the simple explanation is that he's scum that was actively lurking. It's the most probable scenario by a long way, lets assess either;

1) He read from page 19 to page 22 including my detailed case on him, drafted and posted his response within 17 minutes after randomly logging on at the exact same time that I had logged on to post my case on him or:

2) That he has been monitoring the thread, saw a case on him and instantly jumped in to defend himself.

It's 2) by a long way.

And in what way is "There being a lot of conversation and noise about him" a town-tell for him? It's not, especially if you think Nom and I are town.

[Regfan]

He won't be flipping town and at this point I'm starting to doubt if Fuzzy is even going to turn up to hammer (If he lives in America where most people on this site generally seem to live it'd be super late there and he might have gone to bed). One of you two might need to hammer.

[Regfan]

So, lets get this right; you won't lynch someone because you are worried that you might look scummy for it? And instead you would prefer a no lynch to occur gaining us nothing? Lets get this completely right; Why can you only expect him to flip town?

And yes, it does read as you not wanting to hammer your partner. Very very very much so. If you were town you'd have no realize to not hammer him really since either 1) He flips scum and wooo we lynched a scum (So what if it makes you look bad, it'd be a scum down!!) or 2) He flips town and interaction based tells between him and you making you scummy would be completely void.

[Regfan]

Good. 2Pac flipping scum should 100% clear Nom (Ree, you better not argue with me on this). Ree is also 100% town despite fighting against a 2Pac lynch (His demeanor and repetition of "You better kill me" "If I die tonight" ect. reads town too) , Sthars 'reaction-test' vote is also 100% town (He wouldn't attempt to 'reaction-test' someone with a big 'don't do this in your games' if he was scum in a newbie game).

So if you're only going to listen to three of my reads tomorrow I want it to be the above three, never lynch them, ever.

---

Sthar, if you are reading it as T v T fighting why state "Lots of noise" alongside with it? Why not actually state some detailed reasoning as to why you believe that's the case. That's what I found so annoying about your post, you make a statement with no logic to back it up [And while two people arguing doesn't mean ones scum it also doesn't mean both is town] so that as your reasoning to not vote 2Pac was really what got to me (Since I'm pretty damn sure he's flipping scum and people disagreeing with me close to deadline without explaining it logically annoys me - sorry; that's a pet peeve of mine). I don't think that the timing is 'consistent' at all and I think the odds of it being at the "exact" same time of a case on him is near impossible to be a coincidence whereas there's a lot of scum motivation and sense behind the post. If/when he flips scum here I just hope that you actually pay a little more credit to my reads tomorrow or sheep them to a degree if I die.

[Regfan]

I don't buy it, I think it's an attempt to rolefish (No one should counter-claim here; it'd be stupid to do since he's already lynched). I also think if it was legitimate he'd have claimed earlier when he saw the lynch was between him / someone else.

Satan; I'm saying there's no reason as town to not want someone to flip mafia due to worrying that it'll lead you to be suspicious; lynching mafia is the goal and if you thought he was town you should have gone into reasoning of such not gone "well lynching him isn't good for me!"

[Regfan]

But this guy's not listening. If he doesn't connect in 2 hours, you are dead.

Also there's no unvoting once a lynch is decided on; it's already locked in.

[Regfan]

No I don't believe it because I think a town cop would have claimed before when they realized they were getting voted.

I also think that scum that are lynched would claim a power role to see peoples reactions so their partner has a chance to work out who the PR's are.

Edit: Can't GR #10.

[Regfan]

If you're the cop then why didn't you claim before when the lynch was between you / someone else?

Why would you instead let yourself get lynched without claiming?

[Regfan]

I still don't believe it; I think you'd have claimed in your last post if you were the cop knowing that the lynch was between two people one being you.

Happy to wait to the flip and be vindicated or eat humble pie.

[Regfan]

I want to apologise to the mod and players for flaking on the game, my work banned the website and university study ate up my spare/home time and when I'd passed mid-term exam period I'd been replaced.

I'll refrain from commenting on anything else.

[Regfan]

I wasn't really sure whether Satan's slip was a real slip or not.

There wasn't any reason to believe that it "Wasn't" a slip though? He showed clear competency and ability to logically conclude things so him going from "X is scum when people thought X was scum to" "X, I always thought you were town, just pushed you for reactions" when people no longer thought X was scum is a massive massive scum slip (There's no town motivation behind putting a town read/null read of yours to L-1 when you have scum reads which is what he was claiming to have done), the fact that "some people" attempted to argue against that making him mafia bugged me to no end because as far as I'm concerned his actions there was a scum claim and should have been hung on the spot.

[Regfan]

F-16, yeah, it's true that "Scumslips" are rare (I've probably seen less than 10 true scum slips in my experience on the site) and people throw the term around a lot incorrectly but I think people should take serious notice to at least go and reread the situation and context of the accused scumslip rather than ruling it out as someone using hyperbole. If people would have done so they'd have reached the same conclusion I did in Post 365 and honestly, those three quotes alone should have been a lynch.

And yeah, I'll echo what SD is saying in congrats to the scum team on making the right night kill choices, sure there were times where you were in trouble and should have lost but at the end of the day you made the best of a bad situation.