Micro 242: Les Miserables Mafia (Game Over)

[bv310]

Elite, you say? Elite, may be. But Thenardier is a scum to me.

VOTE: Mhork

Srs.

I'm gonna go ahead and piggyback this, since Mhork is also the only person whose name I recognize

vote: Lord Mhork

[bv310]

Bv, have we played together before?

Maemuki, nothing to say? Really?

Honestly, I don't even know. I just recognize your name from GD and modded games.

[bv310]

Scum would not mention it is an L-1. Definitely not stress it so much.

This is bad logic. It doesn't benefit scum to try and sneak in a lynch this early. They benefit as much as we do from longer days. Sneaking in a lynch is more likely to draw suspicion on them tomorrow.

unvote, vote: Shos

No. I was actually listening to Les Mis and Beggers at the Feast was playing and then I figured I could do lyrics too.

I enjoy Les Mis. A lot. 0.0

Musicals are my guilty pleasure. Have you seen the 25th anniversary concert for Les Mis and Phantom?

[bv310]

Seriously, being suspicious as the L minus 1 vote in exchange for a quicklynch when the Hammer was Town is not a Price you would pay?

Even if that was a reasonable line of thought (it's not), it sure as hell wouldn't be on D1.

Also, this whole conversation is a hilariously good example of WIFOM.

[bv310]

I haven't heard of Morton's fork either.

also, if you think about wifoms, then here's one, would scum go out of their way to point out a wifom on page 2 and draw so much attention to himself?

I'm off to showerz

Can we lynch him based on this post alone? This is incredibly anti-town

[bv310]

In what way is taunting us pro-town? The entire point of the WIFOM reference is that it's inherently bad BECAUSE it doesn't lead to scum-hunting or useful information.

[bv310]

[Totally gonna go off topic and answer bv: 25th Anniversary Les Mis can go die in a hole. 1988 Symphonic Recording is where it's at. Phillip Quast = GREATEST JAVERT EVER. I did enjoy the 25th Anniversary Phantom, though, as much as I can enjoy Phantom of the Opera.]

BV: Other than the shos WIFOM thing, is there any reason you suspect him? What do you think of funky?

[I liked parts of the 25th. Enjolras and Valjean were good, Marius was terrible. Also, how did you find the movie?]

Shos stands out to me almost purely on attitude. I feel that the taunting/joking comes across wrong, and I think that his wagon is going to get us some really good information. I feel that my vote is well-placed for now, though I am willing to give him a pass if we decide not to go that way. My suspicion of him is not 100% certainty.

Funky wasn't one that stood out to me before, but I went and read back over and I could support a wagon on him. I don't like his L-1 vote, especially if he's had bad experiences in the past. I don't like how he flipped on to Shos without his own reasoning, and I don't like him using random philosophical theories to explain part of his posting.

[bv310]

God damn it Shos, why'd you have to start acting Town-y now? I had my pitchfork all sharpened and everything. I'm still watching you though. Always watching...

unvote

[bv310]

[@bv: russel Crowe can go die in a hole. Other than that, it was alright.]

What do you mean by good information from his flip?

[I actually didn't mind Russell Crowe. The only problem was that he sucked at singing while moving]

Was this second bit addressed to me?

[bv310]

I can already see right now bv310 is going to be a tough nut to crack if it needs cracking. I don't know if he does, but I find him quite hard to read, due to minimalistic interventions. But despite the minimalism, I do have to say logic shines through the little he says. Now, I try to be careful with calling the use of logic a towntell, just as much I try to avoid considering not being good at logic a scumtell. But if one is confident in displaying logic it does give off the vibe that this person is also confident that logic will get him through this game. I'm not sure if scum is in a position to think this way. They need flaws in their reasoning, evidently helped by unwitting towns helping them pave the way, to get mislynches. If someone consequently uses logic with no discernable gaps I makes me townread them.
Thus I had a townread on bv103 for a while. 47 and 52 showed logic, and I agreed with 68 on shos' 62 being anti-town, though for other reasons than he mentioned (more later in post on shos).
BUT bv103 ruined everything in his post 102 which felt terribly artificial, which got me to rethink the things he said. There was very little about post 100 that was towny, or at least nothing that warranted such an "OH MY GOD I'm SHOCKED AT HOW TOWNY YOU SUDDENLY LOOK"-reaction.
Looking back at his earlier posts, his 47 and 52 are basically him calling the "use of bad logic" = scum. It's an alluring argument and not always made by scum, but people do tend to get illogical sometimes. Scum can make use of that, and somehow I don't feel now that the simple use of bad logic warrants such a strong reaction that bv103 displayed here.
There's been a sudden shift in his narrative that I don't feel explained. This shift is obviously 102[/post, but also 98 which already feels like a preparation for the unvote of shos. Suddenly shos has become an information lynch and mos tof it have been attitude tells.

I want more from bv103 for sure today. To get things started:

@bv310

: What are your thoughts on Maemuki?

For future reference, just using BV instead of my full username will save you some effort.

Now, I'm willing to say Maemuki is on my Null list right now. Post 79 was good content, but other than that, she's been really quiet. I disagree with your analysis, but only because I want more content before I can form a strong opinion.

To address your other concern, I wasn't "preparing to unvote". I was stating my uncertainty with my vote. The more I read over the thread, the more I'm willing to give Shos a pass on some of his less-bad stuff simply because he's cocky. I think part of the shittiest behavious is simply personality. Post whatever-the-fuck-the-number-was was the one that sold me on that aspect.

[bv310]

/prodded

Will catch up tomorrow. Far too tired tonight.

[bv310]

Okay, so I finally had a half-hour of free time before bed tonight. The following are every post I want to address.

You seem so familiar. Shos, have we played together before? I feel like we have.

Whatever. He really doesn't seem to care about votes which I do enjoy.

UNVOTE: Shos

VOTE: Maemuki

So I didn't realize that both GG AND Elle were already here. This is a really sexy wagon, guys. Hop on board! o/

Why is Mae a good wagon? I went through your iso and all I found for reasoning was that she hasn't contributed to anything besides one tunnelled read. Not saying that's a bad reason, but I'd love a bit more reasoning before I join.

Yes, we have.
Will join wagon from home

Same question to you. It's possible I missed it, but what's your logic to joining the wagon on Mae here?

Lax posting isn't always town though. Scum likes to coast too.

Thing is, you're associating coasting and lax posting as being synonymous; they are not. Mae's posting isn't coasting. Beyond feeling like it, you can tell. Coasting is doing half-assed scumhunting--just enough to be below the radar. Mae's not doing that, as evident by being at L-1. Mae's posting distinctly is that of someone who doesn't give a damn. Now, admittedly, yes. It's possible that Mae's scum not giving a damn. (Possible, not probable.) But Mae sure as hell doesn't read that way to me.

mastin hun, is there a chance this is how you play as town too? perhaps you can link me to town games of yours?

Yes, it is; no, I can't. I've got 120+ games (hell, probably 130+ by now), and they're scattered throughout time and forum. There's a REASON I asked for help updating my wiki; it's because I've played in so many games that I've lost track of them.

Plus, going into MD theory a bit, I adjust my play every single game, to the circumstances. Sometimes, I'll strongly use reasons and intuition. Other times, I'll use mainly gut and instinctive reactions to things. It all depends from game to game, off of the context behind it. And going into MD theory even further, the border between logic and gut is thinner than most people think; I see them as two different aspects of the same entity, rather than two separate entities. I'll see something tripping my gut and try to think of reasonable explanations, and I'll ALSO gather evidence, process it, analyze it (all logic), but ultimately form my conclusion off of what I feel. (Gut.)

But in GENERAL, as scum I use logic a lot more. The reason being that as scum, I know the picture of the game much better overall, and thus, know how to make arguments that are more coherent. As town, my thought process is generally scattered and lacks focus. But as scum, having a much more clearly-defined objective, I can make a much better stance on things. There's a reason I used to half-joke that logic was a scumtell for me. And it's exactly that.

As town, I use gut a lot more. The reason largely being that my logic seems to lead me astray. I don't have that perfect process, so even if my train of thought is correct, I'll often come to the wrong conclusion if I'm working off of logic. Or something like that. I dunno, I guess it's just much easier for me to use gut as town than it is for me to use logic as town.

This post bothers me on a gut level. None of this information is remotely useable, but you can point at it later and go "look, I already explained this is my town play".

Mae, give me one good reason to not just hammer you and get it over with.

Because you'll be most probably be lynched if you do.
I guess this is an intent to hammer? Not too sure if it isn't too early for that. Would like to hear more from people like BV (!!), MAlakittens and of course, Maemuki herself before it gets to that.

UNVOTE:

No need to rush things. But the pressure is definitely still on, Maemuki, so don't get too comfortable and please respond.

I agree with your unvote, I disagree with how you phrased it. At this point in the game, no one is going to be dumb enough to hammer without ample time for Mae's answers. Drawing more attention to the votes would have the exact same effect, while maintaining actual pressure on Mae to contribute.

Did I miss who Mae's claiming - because that just looks

flavorful

as opposed to a

flavor claim

.

Yeah but flavor claim doesn't prove alignment. It's not really worth unvoting for.

You don't think our flavor chars will represent good/bad from Les Mis? - Do you think it's random?

I have a hard time believing that.

And for those that don't think it matters, what do you think of a mass flavor name claim at some point?

Do you seriously not think scum will have fakeclaims if their name gives away their alignment? Name-claiming is pointless at best, and actively dangerous at worst. It's easy to get stuck up debating whether Thenardier would be Scum or a Miller-Town role, and that actively hurts our ability to win. Plus, it gives scum extra information. If scum are aiming nightkills, giving them the information to target specific characters who are likely to have ability X is bad.

Hey.

Hey mastin.

Hey.

What's townie about Mae's posting? Her post was wrong and based in her making things up that didn't actually happen. Where's the town in her posting? Where's the town motivation in misrepresenting me?

I actually would like an answer to this too. I don't see the Town in Mae's posts. I don't see guaranteed Town in anyone this game, but Mae's certainly not at the top of my safe list.

Eh. Not sure. Part of me wants Funky lynched, but if we want Mhork first that's fine.

Guys -- when Mastin replaced into MstS -- I was able to ping him right away, this game he's different. He's not scum.

This is bad. If you think Funky should be lynched, then make your case. If you're in favour of the Mhork lynch, then explain why. Don't coast with the flow. Believe in your votes, and explain them!

I am disappointed with the lack of attention for Maemuki's last post. It's so bad it's really hard to miss.

Mastin is town, but I think he's a bit too proud to consider any options other than the ones his gut proposed to him when he arrived here. This makes him useless.

Malakittens for some reason let's Mastin pull her chords. I don't know if they have some meta-luvin going on, but if they don't, Malakittens proneness to being led by Mastin feels fishy.

Shos is still getting the hang of mafia-games. Pretty sure he's town but I don't generally find myself agreeing with his line of thinking.

Counting on elleheathen to help me in opening the rest of town's eyes, she seems to be a sensible person. Mhork might have other fish to fry disspelling Mastin's gut-feelings (good luck Mhork, you're still town in my book so hold on to that thought).

I need to do another ISO on funkytown. I guess I could move to vote him given this

funky's behavior at the start of the game was very strange. It seemed extremely nervous. There was a whole lot of backpedalling going on, and like elleheathen already stated in a response to his rethorical question from 28: it IS weird. Also in his case there's some flawin his reasoning as well: while he first claims to be wary of derphammers, in 33 this suddenly turns into a fear of derphammering (I guess he means quickhammering) scum. Some small inconsistency there that I don't like. After this debacle I have the feeling funky slipped away from everyone's attention, mostly thanks to shos.

hasn't changed much. Need to ISO him again I think.

But I want the Maemuki being a scum-option acknowledged first before possibly moving to a consensus on funky. You never know if I'm not around to see the next day, and if Maemuki is still there and I'm not I want to know that she's not going to disappear under the radar.

I will not be part of a lynch of Mhork today. I'll tell you right now I'll even prefer a no-lynch over a Mhork-lynch.

And what about bv103?

mod

? That slot has become close to unreadable, but from what I can read it doesn't look very good.

Maemuki-bv103 is my Day 1 guess for a scumteam. You guys have to pay me a tribute with a mix of Disney-songs after the game, if I am correct.

Like I said above, just use BV for me. I tend to gloss past things that don't refer to me directly. Also, don't try and get me replaced. That annoys me a lot. If I get overwhelmed by work, I'll replace out on my own.

Anyway, I agree with your point on Mala here. That post of hers was atrocious. The rest of this post grinds at me though. I have a personal hatred of one-line reasoning, specifically because it looks like good content, while still leaving us with basically nothing to work with.

What's your reason for being so anti-Mhork lynch? It's far from my first choice, but I firmly believe that even a mislynch gives us good information to build on. Saying that the post is a dead lock for Town with no reasoning is not great for us.

[bv310]

/prodded. Sorry I disappeared, it's the last 5 days before half-term break, so my principal is all over my ass to get everything done before my short-term contract runs out. Urge to murder 12-year-olds is rising. Tomorrow is Friday (Thank God), so I should get some good content tomorrow afternoon. In the meantime, I'd like to point out that I'm not sold on the strength of the replacement's claim alone. BG is a very typical scum fakeclaim, since it's nearly impossible to prove. That said, I hate lynching replacements. I would prefer giving new-Mae a day before we go for it.

Now that we've gotten some breathing room before the deadline, I want to try and reread each player in ISO instead of doing a quick catch-up.

[bv310]

Officially claiming intent to hammer tomorrow. Tracker claim is bad, off-flavour, and Funky's posting in the last two days has been badsville.

[bv310]

Works for me.

vote: funkybike

[bv310]

So I slightly forgot about playing in this game. >.>

Catchup post incoming.

[bv310]

Claiming Enjolras, Town 1-shot Neighbourizer. Recruited Mhork towards the end of last night.

[bv310]

Towards the end because I was busy all day Saturday, and no daytalk. By the time we got our QT, the day had already been opened.

[bv310]

Making a poem is totally alignment-null.
If you've got any skill as a writer,
Just throw up some bull.

If memory serves me, Mhork actually

does

have some skill as a writer. And if you've got the skills to be a writer, and have been exposed to poetry, you can put them together and easily, EASILY fake a poem. And of course he can fake consistency in his reads. Scum are always self-conscious of who they're townreading and scumreading, AND scum tend not to shift their reads between days unless necessary. Combined together, he wouldn't even need to iso himself to get things consistent; he'd basically already know it.

You ever see that scene in The Princess Bride when Vizzini tries to explain how he chooses which wine glass to take? This post reminds me of that.


Also the site ate my last big catchup post, and then I started rethinking some stuff when I rewrote it. New one's going to be smaller and more concise.

[bv310]

How strange, this feeling that my game's begun at last.
How strange, can people really read so fast?

What's the matter with you, my dear?
Have you found too much scum in-thread?
So many folks unclear,
So many folks not dead...

With seven alive, it takes four to lynch!

Vote Count 2.04

Lord Mhork (L-3): mastin2
Malakittens (L-4):
mastin2 (L-2): Lord Mhork, shos, Grimgroove
bv310 (L-3): Ghostlin
Ghostlin (L-4):
shos (L-4):

Grimgroove (L-3):

Not voting: bv310, Malakittens

V/LA:

Deadline is in (expired on 2013-11-04 00:21:24)

EH WAIT A MOMENT

@MOD: is grimgroove at L-3 with 0 votes??

Related to this, is Mastin at L-2 with 3 votes on him?

No, still my bad. It should be fixed, and I'll put up a new vote count to rectify the ambiguity once I get something to eat...

P-EDIT: Mala, there's nothing in my role PM that says it would fail. Neighbour =/= Mason in this case.

[bv310]

I'm not sure why Lord Mhork and bv310 vouched for one another.

Even more baffling to me is why funkybike1 claimed Tracker with Bishop as the character with zero consultation with you, mastin2. Given that daytalk was available.

Pure gut on my part. I've played a ton of games over the past 5-ish years I've been on this site, and I honestly can't give you a better answer than that. If I had been wrong, I would have been genuinely surprised. I kept going back over his posts trying to find what it was that stuck out to me so much, but I came up with nothing.