Tales of You (Endgame)

[BROseidon]

Dear Scum,

This game is stalling out, but you don't seem to be actually trying to win, instead hoping for town to collapse on itself. Please stop doing that and bus, as you're just wasting our time. I'm not gonna let this town collapse on itself, and your lack of action anywhere indicates that this is what you're counting on.

Best,
BROseidon

[BROseidon]

Hey MuffinNati:

Never fakeclaim miller as town again. Shit on me all you want for being off this game, you made an objectively wrong play that necessitated your death.

Also fuck godfathers.

[BROseidon]

I think you having a cop clear on you let you do that.

Reason I hate godfathers: they do nothing except for when they make games completely decided.

[BROseidon]

This town. I dunno man. To the extent I sheeped, which most notably by taking JSU's AP read over my own, but not the only instance, I was wrong not to follow my own reads.

Desp only backed off b/c of the inno.

[BROseidon]

gg scum.

This town. I dunno man. To the extent I sheeped, which most notably by taking JSU's AP read over my own, but not the only instance, I was wrong not to follow my own reads.

OR YOU COULD'VE JUST FOLLOWED ME D3

Do you not get that Desp and I had information that directly conflicted with your claim.

[BROseidon]

Oh yeah, that :/

[BROseidon]

gg scum.

This town. I dunno man. To the extent I sheeped, which most notably by taking JSU's AP read over my own, but not the only instance, I was wrong not to follow my own reads.

OR YOU COULD'VE JUST FOLLOWED ME D3

Do you not get that Desp and I had information that directly conflicted with your claim.

DO YOU NOT GET THAT READS > ROLE INFORMATION?

OR THAT NO ROLE INFORMATION COULD POSSIBLY OVERRIDE HOW SCUMMILY FAKE AP'S FAKECLAIM WAS?

False. Role information always trumps everything, since one of those things is far more frequently wrong than the other.

Unless you want to contest that any player has reads that are more accurate than the rate at which godfathers exist in closed setups.

[BROseidon]

gg scum.

This town. I dunno man. To the extent I sheeped, which most notably by taking JSU's AP read over my own, but not the only instance, I was wrong not to follow my own reads.

OR YOU COULD'VE JUST FOLLOWED ME D3

Do you not get that Desp and I had information that directly conflicted with your claim.

DO YOU NOT GET THAT READS > ROLE INFORMATION?

OR THAT NO ROLE INFORMATION COULD POSSIBLY OVERRIDE HOW SCUMMILY FAKE AP'S FAKECLAIM WAS?

False. Role information always trumps everything, since one of those things is far more frequently wrong than the other.

Unless you want to contest that any player has reads that are more accurate than the rate at which godfathers exist in closed setups.

LOL
GODFATHERS ARE COMMON

YOU FAILED TO DISSECT AP'S CLAIM
IT SCREAMED SCUM FAKECLAIM WITH 349573489574 LOOPHOLES BUILT IN

THEN HIS PLAY
AND NACHOS PLAY
AND PA'S PLAY

THERE HAVE BEEN PLAYERS THAT HAVE IGNORED THEIR OWN GODFATHER INNOCENTS BECAUSE IT MADE NO SENSE AND LYNCHED CORRECTLY REGARDLESS
ROLE INFORMATION IS NEVER 100% CONFIRMATION

Even if I assumed that there was a godfather in this game, the odds of me hitting it, given a town result, were 1/13. Do I really need to walk through the math here?

pedit: Yeah, my reads early this game sucked. It happens. Move on.

[BROseidon]

...This entire game is an exercise in decision making based on assumptions and probabilistic outcomes. Mafia is built on math

[BROseidon]

...This entire game is an exercise in decision making based on assumptions and probabilistic outcomes. Mafia is built on math

No wonder you're always wrong and throwing games.

You realize that I win more than I lose, right?

pedit: muffin, you realize that Desp and I had 2/3 pegged at the end, right?

[BROseidon]

Oh wait, you're both vitriolic, toxic assholes who can't do anything but be asshats constantly, and make this game unfun for everyone.

[BROseidon]

Can we not try to kill each other in postgame, please? I've sorta let the janitorial contract slip.

Then tell katsuki and muffin to back off instead of getting annoyed at me for retaliating in a relatively civil manner.

[BROseidon]

And yet instead of going after them the confirmed scum, you gambled on an AT BEST 50% shot which was...the wrong name.

Math your strongsuit, you say.

Where in the numbers does going after unconfirmed scum make more sense than going after confirmed scum?

Who was confirmed scum?

[BROseidon]

And yes, I admitted to having a bad game. It happens. Look for the takeaways and move on.

[BROseidon]

The point I'm trying to make is, there's no need to be an asshat to someone for being a bad game. If this were League, and I'd had a bad game and fed, and Muffin/Katsuki and maybe you treated me the way you've treated me here, you'd all be reported, and your behavior would ultimately get punished. Because it's toxic behavior.

People have bad games. Nobody's immune from it. You try to figure out what went wrong and move on. You don't be an asshat to other people.

[BROseidon]

The point I'm trying to make is, there's no need to be an asshat to someone for being a bad game. If this were League, and I'd had a bad game and fed, and Muffin/Katsuki and maybe you treated me the way you've treated me here, you'd all be reported, and your behavior would ultimately get punished. Because it's toxic behavior.

People have bad games. Nobody's immune from it. You try to figure out what went wrong and move on. You don't be an asshat to other people.

DEMS DOUBLE STANDARDS

I dare you to find places where I was outright toxic, other than my "cock through meat grinder" comment that got me warned.

[BROseidon]

In this game

Anything Goes is the game that made me try to be less toxic, regardless of what other players around me are doing.

[BROseidon]

The issue was that Katsuki got blocked, but his role didn't give indication of it, and Desp and I had confirmation that AP's action succeeded.

But yeah, you/Fox should have been resolved before we got to magenta, although I doubt it would have changed much.

[BROseidon]

My toxicity doesn't come from LoL; DotA community was much, much worse b/c of the lack of matchmaking. I'm actually a fairly pleasant person to play with in LoL (Don't have any honor rewards, so I'm not the nicest guy in the world, but I don't get reported like, at all).

The issue here is that I have a very short fuse in the first place, and in mafia the only way to take out frustration is by yelling at people because that is the gameplay. It's hard to yell at people without being toxic.

pedit: We had it as scum theatre b/w you too.

[BROseidon]

two*

typing is hard :/

[BROseidon]

Everything you're referring to was strictly in game and never an attack on character.

Also, reads can't be toxic.

[BROseidon]

Unless, like, the read is strictly for personal reasons.

[BROseidon]

And there was no way you could have retracted the miller claim post-CC in a way that would have made it acceptable for you to be alive from a game theory perspective. Even if in this specific instance you were town, there's no reason not to lynch a CC'd miller claim unless there's reason to believe the setup would have multiple millers.

[BROseidon]

AP vs Katsuki wasn't a thing because Desp/I had the result on AP that indicated katsuki was wrong. If anything, it should have been us vs. katsuki, which would have been wrong b/c of the role block.

[BROseidon]

There was. But more importantly their play in so many other ways looked town to me.

So you're saying that scum-muffin has never looked town to you, then?

Because that also has to hold true for you to justify not lynching the claim fuckup.

[BROseidon]

AP vs Katsuki wasn't a thing because Desp/I had the result on AP that indicated katsuki was wrong. If anything, it should have been us vs. katsuki, which would have been wrong b/c of the role block.

And that's where you needed to consider that something was up with the night game.

After Katsuki flipped town, we figured he was blocked. And we were right.

We should have tried to work out better what was going on during the day phase, especially given how town Katsuki's play looked up to that point.

[BROseidon]

There was. But more importantly their play in so many other ways looked town to me.

So you're saying that scum-muffin has never looked town to you, then?

Because that also has to hold true for you to justify not lynching the claim fuckup.

I wasn't reading muffin. I was reading Nati. Nati has fooled me before, but never to the extent of "oh hell yeah, he's town". he fools me just barely enough. or not.

Nati was in this game for more than 5 posts?

[BROseidon]

Everything you're referring to was strictly in game and never an attack on character

......................

you got upset at me and katsuki pointing out you were the leading cause of the loss this game

we didn't attack your character

unless you think me pointing out you were arrogant about your bad reads is attacking your character

in which case, lol

Uh...

You're going to pretend that you didn't push me to an emotional breakdown now? That breakdown was 100% real (granted, mastin basically handwaving it even though she also contributed hugely is also a problem).

Also...

I wish town the best of luck because you guys really will need it.

p.s. LYNCH NACHO, THEN PA. DONT LET AP LIVE TO ENDGAME BECAUSE FUCK HIM.

I thought you'd carry us through, CF.

IN OTHER WORDS WELL PLAYED JUS, CONGRATS ON THE WIN!

early

this game

i bolded the incorrect word

i found it rather hilarious that, true to your name, all scum had to do this game to get a free win was... sheep you guys

see i wouldn't actually be making fun of you for bad reads, bro, except you were cocky enough to think your reads were the most amazing thing since sliced bread, and said so multiple times in game, so the sweet, sweet irony that all scum had to do was sheep you to victory makes it that much funnier

and yes, kudos on getting 2/3 pegged at end game

All crossed the line.

[BROseidon]

I'm not gonna dig through the game and pull out the posts where people were abusive in-game, because that's unnecessary as fuck right now.

[BROseidon]

Actually, Katsuki was fine in game for the most part.

[BROseidon]

Can we just not.

Most of us played a shit game, myself included. Just learn from it and move on. Parts of the game were toxic enough, and a good number of us contributed to that.

How about instead of saying shit like this, you hold people accountable to their actions?

Serious question.

When I said in my giant rant that "everyone who isn't standing up to mastin for her emotional manipulation is complicit in it," I was being completely serious.

[BROseidon]

You're going to pretend that you didn't push me to an emotional breakdown now?

when did that happen? iirc you broke down because people were wagoning you or something

I broke down because of you+mastin being abusive, and then the rest of the game holding me accountable for it by wagoning me.

[BROseidon]

To be clear: The main reason I broke down was because you and mastin were being abusive as fuck this game. To the point that it triggered anxiety issues that I'd had down for about 8-10 months.

Anxiety issues that I had down when I was going through the job interview process and getting ding after ding.

ie, your level of abusiveness caused me MORE STRESS than me trying to get a job for post-college life.

[BROseidon]

Alignment is somewhat irrelevant to abusive behavior?

[BROseidon]

I feel like I do. I mean in the game Muffin and I talked about what I thought of how he comes across and I feel like I understand him a little better. I'll never feel like insulting people is all right, but I really don't think right after the game ended, a game that was pretty frustrating for most of us, where we just lost after, most of us having shit reads, is really a productive time to start pointing fingers over who was more toxic etc. The majority of us were, we can do better and should.

So then why not tell katsuki to stop it when the first thing he does post-game is come in and bm me?

[BROseidon]

All crossed the line.

oh, bullshit

i specifically pointed out why it's fucking hilarious that you were the leading cause of this game's loss; your sheer fucking arrogance in thinking your reads were amazing because you've been right in some past games was fucking hilarious. your accuracy rate is probably no better than anyone else playing this game (minus a few people, there's almost no one in this player list i can point to and say i think their reads aren't usually good) so you thinking your shit didn't stink was just... yeah

if you weren't so arrogant about it, nobody would give two shits about your bad reads being a huge contributing factor in this loss

if youre going to get upset about people calling you out for being arrogant about having bad reads, then stop being fucking arrogant about your reads. problem fucking solved.

And pointing that out accomplished what, exactly? Do you think I don't know that I fucked up? Do you think that you being an asshole to me about having a bad game is going to accomplish anything other than piss me off?

You apparently don't understand what "toxic" means.

[BROseidon]

Alignment is somewhat irrelevant to abusive behavior?

Somewhat. pie was pushing it as a reason mastin had to be scum, though. I don't remember if you cited it specifically as a reason mastin was scum.

It wasn't why I thought mastin was scum. I thought mastin was scum largely from bad positionality on Tammy and CF early day 1, iirc, and then her response to me calling her scum for it.

[BROseidon]

I feel like I do. I mean in the game Muffin and I talked about what I thought of how he comes across and I feel like I understand him a little better. I'll never feel like insulting people is all right, but I really don't think right after the game ended, a game that was pretty frustrating for most of us, where we just lost after, most of us having shit reads, is really a productive time to start pointing fingers over who was more toxic etc. The majority of us were, we can do better and should.

So then why not tell katsuki to stop it when the first thing he does post-game is come in and bm me?

My initial post was not directed to you. It was directed to the argument.

Valid.

[BROseidon]

ftr i am like almost 100% sure i didn't post at all leading up to your breakdown and when i read it through it looked like you broke down because of a series of votes on you

Even if you didn't post in the immediate timeframe (I don't remember and am too lazy to check), do you think that you're posting prior to that point had no impact on my frame of mind?

A breakdown that big wasn't going to be caused by 3 pages of posts. It takes a while for something like that to build up. If it didn't, I'd be a pretty non-functional person.

[BROseidon]

harness that feeling the next time you think about saying something about how your reads are amazing.

This makes 0 sense.

[BROseidon]

Also I feel like I was getting on the right track when I tried to approach the game differently and looked at the wagons. Maybe I would have even gotten a scum read right! Who knows, but I like to tell myself I would have.

You probably should have tried something like this a bit sooner. Having you in the game instead of shut down would have helped a lot. Maybe try to develop a tool that you can fall back on if you come across another game like this?

[BROseidon]

I'm not gonna dig through your ISO for it, since I'm going on vacation and am going to spend my time in Europe enjoying, well, Europe. My flight starts boarding in 5 minutes.

Maybe you should try to, when you want to call someone bad/stupid/retarded/etc, not do that. I'm pretty sure you picked one of the tamer things you said about it, too.

[BROseidon]

i ctrl+Fed your ISO for stuff you said to me. that was what i said to you leading up to the cock in meat grinder comment. you're free to go find the apparently offensive stuff i said before or after that

I read our ISO in duo, and am going to admit that I was an asshat there.

My b. Not sure what I was so angry about in retrospect.

[BROseidon]

mastin, the posting from you that I had issue with was the guilt-trippy "I really hope BRO's scum b/c if he's town oh god he's playing terribly" posts that you kept putting out. Like, I normally feel bad pushing lynches through, and my hyper-aggression is largely so that I can get lynches through without turning into a giant waffly mess. Those posts hit a particularly vulnerable spot on me.

[BROseidon]

Like, I'd probably be one of the most guilttrippable players on site if I didn't know that I'm easy as fuck to guilttrip and compensate for it accordingly.

[BROseidon]

You're conflating what information was available given my PoV at different times.

In retrospect, you were correct.

At the time, I thought you were scum trying to use an underhanded tactic targeted right at my weak spot to get me off your back (and I figured that, given how similar we are in a lot of ways, could have easily figured out that I have a weak spot there)

[BROseidon]

In other words, even though objectively you were right, from my PoV at the time I had no way to know that, so it felt like something very different.

That's also why I'm not upset at you now about it, since it's not like you were setting out to get under my skin.

[BROseidon]

Like, I said you were playing badly.
Your posting post-game explicitly said that your early game was shit.
So I was explicitly saying something that

you agree with being true

.

'In retrospect' my ass. I knew I was correct at the time.

The thing about it is that you're continuing to always think the problem lies outside. You're continuing to think that it was something I did, when it was something you did at the time. Which you now know. But in the future, in the middle of the game, you're not going to act any differently. You're still going to think that it's something "I" (it can be anyone) did, rather than something you're doing. And when that game's over, you're going to go once again saying "In hindsight, it was on my end, but I had no way of knowing it was at the time".

Except yes you do.
By actually learning.
Like, this reminds me of the lectures I was on the receiving end of in my 2009 play.
When I actually started listening to them (took 'til 2011), I became a better player, because I actually DID stop making the same mistakes.

I think we're talking past each other.

Of course from your PoV you knew you were right, because you could read your PM.

I couldn't, and I had an erroneous read.

However, given my erroneous read, the way in which you were dealing with me felt like, to me, scum trying to shake attention using AtE that's fairly potent. The only way to have prevented the situation from my end would have been to have had a correct read there. Not quite sure what I should have picked up on in regards to that, and I'm not doing a reread to figure it out. Probably something positionality isn't alignment indicative before you have flips something something, not sure.

[BROseidon]

Thanks for the advice, mastin. I didn't see it that way, and that sort of recalubration will probably do me some good. I'll try to open up more if/when I come off hiatus.

I'm on my plane now, will catch you all later.

[BROseidon]

Mod meta and warning that the setup has red herrings don't justify an implicitly bad and unfun role being in the game, though.

Like, there are a shitton of ways to nerf cop power in ways that aren't anti-fun.

[BROseidon]

The frequency of godfathers is irrelevant to whether their a good design choice. They were an early attempt to fix the problems with cops, and much better fixes have been developed since then (our role was already gated by 2 of them, even night and the lack of ability to distinguish between a guilty, being blocked, and someone who didn't go anywhere.)

[BROseidon]

they're. I can't spell.

Also, the argument for/against millers is somewhat more interesting, since they actually have less binary play. I used to be super-hardline "millers are terrible," but I don't think that's necessarily the case. The fact that they appear as frequently as they do is kind of bad, though (since it means people are balancing their cops in lazy ways, and it makes the scum fake claiming miller gambit less viable when you're basically guaranteed a miller and maybe a PGO in every large game).

[BROseidon]

The game implicitly favors scum over town. PRs exist to favor town; there shouldn't be traps that fuck over town by outright lying to them.

Ninjas are also a bad solution to trackers, which don't even need a solution in the first place (There's already counter play in a tracker "guilty" because you can talk your way out of it).

Cop sanity was another poor solution to the cop problem. The best solution to the cop problem is to either not use cops or to heavily gate their power.

[BROseidon]

Or you give town a metric fuckton of power elsewhere.

People forget that 11:2 mountainous is moderately scumsided (which means 13:4 mountainous is hilariously scumsided). Town power needs to substantially outweigh scum power to balance shit out.

[BROseidon]

I'm not saying I think the setup was imbalanced (I haven't actually looked at it in detail), I'm saying godfathers suck.

And ffery, it's fine to not trust cop results, but you can't ignore the result outright. There's probably a way to formally algorithmize it based on decision-making theory, but I'm too tired/lazy to think of it now.

[BROseidon]

Decision-making theory should take into account reads. I've been trying to develop a way to make decision in-game based on associative reads in any given gamestate (i.e., if x is scum, then y has b chance of being scum, but if z is scum, then m has n chance of being scum, etc), and I'm not sure how doable that is without using external software because of how large the decision tree would become. A cop inno affects the probability of someone being town, regardless of your personal read on that player.

[BROseidon]

To me it felt weird that you wouldn't be scum reading people when so few people were particularly obvtown.