Dierfire's Mini Normal Review

Nexus · Post Post #0 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:27 am

In post 0, N wrote:
Dierfire wrote:Hello,

I apologize for the delay.

1. I'll be ready to run my game when it reaches the top of the queue.
2. My game will be for 13 players.
3. I have no backup or co-moderator.
4. I have run two Mini Normal games independently (Mini 1755 and Mini 1809) and one as co-moderator (Mini 1782) on this site. I have no other moderating commitments at this time.

I'm sending my design by a separate PM.

--Dier

Dierfire wrote:Hello,

Here is my game design.

1. Opening posts

Spoiler: First Post
Mini Normal ####
Moderator: Dierfire
Reviewed by: (Names)

Players

01. (Name)
02. (Name)
03. (Name)
04. (Name)
05. (Name)
06. (Name)
07. (Name)
08. (Name)
09. (Name)
10. (Name)
11. (Name)
12. (Name)
13. (Name)

Alive

All

Dead

None

Game Events

(Events)

Spoiler: Second Post
RULES

General

01. Site rules may be found here for reference.
02. The rules are subject to change at my discretion to correct any errors or omissions. Should any changes be implemented, they will be announced in the same format as the original rule (for example, changes to the main set of rules will be announced in the main thread; changes to role-specific rules will be sent by PM).
03. Pretending to violate any of these rules will be treated the same as an actual violation.
04. Everyone is here to have fun, and I hope that we will all keep this in mind throughout the game. Please contact me directly (by PM) with any problems or questions. In the event that I make an error, please call it to my attention by PM or by addressing me in the relevant thread (
I will look for “@Mod”
).

Posting

05. Players should use English exclusively, without any form of hidden or encoded text.
06. Once I have declared a player to be dead, that player should not post in the main thread until I have declared the game to be over.
07. Players should not provide direct quotations from, images of, or other provable references to any game-related PM or PT.
08. Players should not use any form of provable randomness for any reason.

Timing

09. Each Day Phase will last 10 days. Each Night Phase will last 48 hours. In between, there will be a period not to exceed 24 hours for me to write the transition. Deadlines may be extended at my discretion as necessary to ensure that the game continues smoothly. Any such extension will be announced in the main thread.
10. Players who have not posted in 48 consecutive hours will receive a prod. After receiving a prod, a player has 24 hours to post before I will begin seeking a replacement. Players on V/LA will be exempt from these prod requirements; however, if a player requires an extensive period of V/LA, I may determine that the game would be better served by a replacement and replace that player at my discretion.
11. Players who do not make sufficient attempt to participate (including--but not limited to--players who require repeated prods) may be replaced at my discretion.
12. If a player being replaced for inactivity should return to the game before a replacement is found, that player may be allowed to continue in the game at my discretion. However, once a player has been replaced, that player may not continue in the game.

Day Phase

13. Players may vote to lynch another player using either vote tags or bold tags as demonstrated below.
VOTE: Name

Vote: Name

In order to be counted, votes should appear on a separate line and not within spoiler tags or otherwise concealed. Votes not following this format may be counted if I believe that a vote was intended.
Players may not vote for themselves; such votes will not be counted.

14. When one player has achieved a majority of votes (more living players voting for that player than living players not voting for that player), that player will be lynched and the phase will end. If the deadline is reached before a lynch is achieved, no player will be lynched.
15. Players may vote to end the phase without a lynch. An example of such a vote is given below:
VOTE: No Lynch
If the number of living players voting for this option is greater than or equal to the number of living players not voting for this option, the phase will end without a lynch and the game will proceed directly to Night Phase.
16. Players may continue to post in the main thread until I have announced the end of the phase, regardless of whether or not a lynch has occurred.

Game Design

17. In addition to the site-wide rules, it may be useful to review the Normal Game guidelines and the Natural Action Resolution guidelines.
18. Any PT associated with this game will be open for use at all times (Day Phase and Night Phase).
19. No player may perform more than one action during a single Night Phase.
20. At least one player will receive the following role:
Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Citizen, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You have no special abilities.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

2. Roles

1x Mafia Detective
2x Mafia Goon

2x Town Mason
1x Town Tracker
1x Town Backup Tracker
6x Town Citizen

Spoiler: Role PM
Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Detective, aligned with
Mafia
.

Abilities: You may converse with the other players aligned with Mafia at (link). During each Night Phase, one living player aligned with Mafia may be assigned to kill one living player not aligned with Mafia. If the action is successful, the target will die.
In addition, during each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself, and you may not use this ability during a Night Phase in which you are assigned to make the factional kill. You will receive one of the following results (note that the alignment of the role is not included in the result):

You have learned that (target) has the role (name of role).

You have learned that (target) has the role that is basic for that player's alignment.

Your action was unsuccessful.
Victory: You win if the number of living players aligned with Mafia is greater than or equal to the number of living players not aligned with Mafia, or if nothing can prevent this.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Goon, aligned with
Mafia
.

Abilities: You may converse with the other players aligned with Mafia at (link). During each Night Phase, one living player aligned with Mafia may be assigned to kill one living player not aligned with Mafia. If the action is successful, the target will die.

Victory: You win if the number of living players aligned with Mafia is greater than or equal to the number of living players not aligned with Mafia, or if nothing can prevent this.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Mason, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You are informed that (partner) is aligned with Town, and (partner) is similarly informed that you are aligned with Town. You and (partner) may converse at (link).

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Tracker, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: During each Night Phase, you may send me the name of a single living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results:

You saw (target) visit (player).

You did not see (target) visit any player.

Your action was unsuccessful.
Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Backup Tracker, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: Initially, you have no special abilities. However, in the event that a Tracker dies, you will gain the Tracker ability described below.
During each Night Phase, you may send me the name of a single living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself. You will receive one of the following results:

You saw (target) visit (player).

You did not see (target) visit any player.

Your action was unsuccessful.
Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Citizen, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You have no special abilities.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

3. Moderator Information

Spoiler: Detective Results
You have learned that (target) has the role Mason.

You have learned that (target) has the role Tracker.

You have learned that (target) has the role Backup Tracker.

You have learned that (target) has the role that is basic for that player's alignment.

Your action was unsuccessful.

Spoiler: Tracker Results
You saw (target) visit (player).

You did not see (target) visit any player.

Your action was unsuccessful.

Spoiler: Miscellaneous Notifications
Unfortunately, you have died. You may continue to discuss this game in the Dead PT (link), but otherwise may not post in this game (in any thread) until I have announced that the game is over.

More than 48 hours have passed since your last post. Please post in the main thread (link) within 24 hours to continue in the game.

Day (#) has begun. The main thread (link) is now open.

Firebringer · Post Post #1 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:36 am

Few things so far from this.
Detective role described is a role cop by normal standards
Citizens also are called VTs.

As far as balance this is a little town sided with 2 Mason and tracker with another person who can confirm their role.

Dierfire · Post Post #2 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:39 am

Hello everyone,

I'll say up front that I'm prepared to sacrifice my personal preferences for role names if Vanilla Town and Role Cop would cause less confusion than Citizen and Detective.

I will also be adding a rule that the Mafia PT will be shared at the end of the game, with redactions permitted. This notification, like the notification about the nonstandard phase lengths, will be posted in the queue when enrollment begins.

EDIT: Ha ha, I knew that the role names would be a problem!

Firebringer · Post Post #3 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:40 am

Can Mafia talk with each other at all times?

Dierfire · Post Post #4 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:41 am

Yes, and this is announced in Rule 18.

Firebringer · Post Post #5 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:42 am

In post 2, Dierfire wrote:Hello everyone,

I'll say up front that I'm prepared to sacrifice my personal preferences for role names if Vanilla Town and Role Cop would cause less confusion than Citizen and Detective.

I will also be adding a rule that the Mafia PT will be shared at the end of the game, with redactions permitted. This notification, like the notification about the nonstandard phase lengths, will be posted in the queue when enrollment begins.

EDIT: Ha ha, I knew that the role names would be a problem!

Yeah your going to have to change the names on those.

The rule on Mafia PT is fine.

Dierfire · Post Post #6 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:46 am

Detective to Role Cop I will change without hesitation. Vanilla Town causes me great anguish. Which of the listed variations in the Wiki are permitted?

Firebringer · Post Post #7 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:47 am

The setup looks fine to me. The only issue I see is that backup tracker essentially confirms the first tracker and it's essentially a mason pair without a PT.

I was thinking how would this change game with universal backup, but I think that causes more problems.

I would say this is slight town favored as I said before.
I'll let cephrir chime in with a few thoughts.

Firebringer · Post Post #8 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:50 am

In post 6, Dierfire wrote:Detective to Role Cop I will change without hesitation. Vanilla Town causes me great anguish. Which of the listed variations in the Wiki are permitted?

You can call it Citizen instead if you want.
That is permitted.

Just make sure the sample citizen pm is in opening post

ISO · Post Post #9 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:40 am

Can Masons talk at all times as well?

I agree with most of what's been said so far. This seems townsided as it stands.

Dierfire · Post Post #10 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:36 pm

Yes, Rule 18 will apply to the Masons as well.

How much advantage does the Town have? Are we worried mostly about the claims or the powers? Would changing the Backup to a role not in the game (Backup Doctor, say) fix the problem, or does it need a larger change like removing the Backup Tracker entirely? What about an intermediate change, like changing the Tracker to a Bodyguard and the Backup Tracker to a Backup Bodyguard? What about a more fundamental change, like changing the Masons out for roles that don't mutually confirm? Does it need adjustment on the Mafia end instead (like an Ascetic or Ninja modifier to bypass the Tracker)?

Dierfire · Post Post #11 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:44 pm

Actually, the idea of Bodyguard and Backup Bodyguard sounds really fun to me. Would that fly?

ISO · Post Post #12 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:37 pm

the bodyguards & masons combo could be incredibly annoying, and the mafia doesn't have much counterplay to it, but maybe?

I'd be in favor of just nerfing the town slightly rather than adding mafia power. Mafia power is better than it sounds on paper, and I don't think we're so far off as to warrant adding more of that.

ISO · Post Post #13 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:38 pm

I'm thinking I'd probably be okay with the bodyguards if you're prepared for the possibility it creates a setup that's fair but annoying.

Firebringer · Post Post #14 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:27 pm

Ehh BG is pretty weak role, I do think that would make the game more neutral in terms of balance.
I don't think its a bad thing this is townsided though If you make the Masons to only have night chat, I do think that would even things out.

Masons with constant chat can be really useful for them to bounce ideas of each other and can be deadly for scum team.

Firebringer · Post Post #15 (ISO) » Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:33 pm

If you decide to change the Tracker to Bodyguard, I would keep the day chat for the masons though.

I think id approve either of those if you make those changes.

Either take out mason chat in game if you want to keep tracker or
Change Tracker to Bodyguard and Backup Tracker to Backup Bodyguard

Those are my thoughts on it.

Dierfire · Post Post #16 (ISO) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:53 pm

All right, so here are those adjustments:

1. Opening posts

Spoiler: First Post

Spoiler: Second Post

RULES

General

01. Site rules may be found here for reference.
02. The rules are subject to change at my discretion to correct any errors or omissions. Should any changes be implemented, they will be announced in the same format as the original rule (for example, changes to the main set of rules will be announced in the main thread; changes to role-specific rules will be sent by PM).
03. Pretending to violate any of these rules will be treated the same as an actual violation.
04. Everyone is here to have fun, and I hope that we will all keep this in mind throughout the game. Please contact me directly (by PM) with any problems or questions. In the event that I make an error, please call it to my attention by PM or by addressing me in the relevant thread (
I will look for “@Mod”
).

Posting

05. Players should use English exclusively, without any form of hidden or encoded text.
06. Once I have declared a player to be dead, that player should not post in the main thread until I have declared the game to be over.
07. Players should not provide direct quotations from, images of, or other provable references to any game-related PM or PT.
08. Players should not use any form of provable randomness for any reason.

Timing

09. Each Day Phase will last 10 days. Each Night Phase will last 48 hours. In between, there will be a period not to exceed 24 hours for me to write the transition. Deadlines may be extended at my discretion as necessary to ensure that the game continues smoothly. Any such extension will be announced in the main thread.
10. Players who have not posted in 48 consecutive hours will receive a prod. After receiving a prod, a player has 24 hours to post before I will begin seeking a replacement. Players on V/LA will be exempt from these prod requirements; however, if a player requires an extensive period of V/LA, I may determine that the game would be better served by a replacement and replace that player at my discretion.
11. Players who do not make sufficient attempt to participate (including--but not limited to--players who require repeated prods) may be replaced at my discretion.
12. If a player being replaced for inactivity should return to the game before a replacement is found, that player may be allowed to continue in the game at my discretion. However, once a player has been replaced, that player may not continue in the game.

Day Phase

13. Players may vote to lynch another player using either vote tags or bold tags as demonstrated below.
VOTE: Name

Vote: Name

In order to be counted, votes should appear on a separate line and not within spoiler tags or otherwise concealed. Votes not following this format may be counted if I believe that a vote was intended.
Players may not vote for themselves; such votes will not be counted.

14. When one player has achieved a majority of votes (more living players voting for that player than living players not voting for that player), that player will be lynched and the phase will end. If the deadline is reached before a lynch is achieved, no player will be lynched.
15. Players may vote to end the phase without a lynch. An example of such a vote is given below:
VOTE: No Lynch
If the number of living players voting for this option is greater than or equal to the number of living players not voting for this option, the phase will end without a lynch and the game will proceed directly to Night Phase.
16. Players may continue to post in the main thread until I have announced the end of the phase, regardless of whether or not a lynch has occurred.

Game Design

17. In addition to the site-wide rules, it may be useful to review the Normal Game guidelines and the Natural Action Resolution guidelines.
18. Any PT associated with this game will be open for use at all times (Day Phase and Night Phase).
Every PT related to this game will be made public after the game is over, although I will redact posts by player request.

19. No player may perform more than one action during a single Night Phase.
20. At least one player will receive the following role:
Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Citizen, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You have no special abilities.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

2. Roles

1x Mafia Role Cop
2x Mafia Goon

2x Town Mason
1x Town Bodyguard
1x Town Backup Bodyguard
6x Town Citizen

Spoiler: Role PM

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Role Cop, aligned with
Mafia
.

Abilities: You may converse with the other players aligned with Mafia at (link). During each Night Phase, one living player aligned with Mafia may be assigned to kill one living player not aligned with Mafia. If the action is successful, the target will die.
In addition, during each Night Phase, you may choose one living player to investigate. You may not choose yourself, and you may not use this ability during a Night Phase in which you are assigned to make the factional kill. You will receive one of the following results (note that the alignment of the role is not included in the result):

You have learned that (target) has the role (name of role).

You have learned that (target) has the role that is basic for that player's alignment.

Your action was unsuccessful.
Victory: You win if the number of living players aligned with Mafia is greater than or equal to the number of living players not aligned with Mafia, or if nothing can prevent this.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Goon, aligned with
Mafia
.

Abilities: You may converse with the other players aligned with Mafia at (link). During each Night Phase, one living player aligned with Mafia may be assigned to kill one living player not aligned with Mafia. If the action is successful, the target will die.

Victory: You win if the number of living players aligned with Mafia is greater than or equal to the number of living players not aligned with Mafia, or if nothing can prevent this.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Mason, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You are informed that (partner) is aligned with Town, and (partner) is similarly informed that you are aligned with Town. You and (partner) may converse at (link).

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Bodyguard, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: During each Night Phase, you may send me the name of a single living player to protect. You may not choose yourself. If your action is successful and your target would be killed during that Night Phase, you will die instead. You will not be informed whether your action was successful.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Backup Bodyguard, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: Initially, you have no special abilities. However, in the event that a Bodyguard dies, you will gain the Bodyguard ability described below.

During each Night Phase, you may send me the name of a single living player to protect. You may not choose yourself. If your action is successful and your target would be killed during that Night Phase, you will die instead. You will not be informed whether your action was successful.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

Welcome, (player), to (game)!

Your role is Citizen, aligned with
Town
.

Abilities: You have no special abilities.

Victory: You win if all living players are aligned with Town.

3. Moderator Information

Spoiler: Role Cop Results

Spoiler: Miscellaneous Notifications

Dierfire · Post Post #17 (ISO) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:55 pm

Summary of changes:

Changed name from Mafia Detective to Mafia Role Cop
Changed Town Tracker to Town Bodyguard
Changed Town Backup Tracker to Town Backup Bodyguard
Added to Rule 18 that all PT will be made public after the game ends (with redactions permitted)
Removed the "action unsuccessful" PM from the list of possible Role Cop results in the Moderator information section (
not the Role PM itself
) because there is nothing to prevent the role from working (but the player will not know this)

Firebringer · Post Post #18 (ISO) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:02 pm

Approved

I don't see any other changes necessary.

Firebringer · Post Post #19 (ISO) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 5:02 pm

Cephrir?

ISO · Post Post #20 (ISO) » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:05 pm

I'll give it a look in the morning!

ISO · Post Post #21 (ISO) » Sat Nov 05, 2016 6:49 am

In between, there will be a period not to exceed 24 hours for me to write the transition

I guess you can do this if you want, but I should at least warn you that the players won't like it.

Players may not vote for themselves; such votes will not be counted.

I don't think you can do this. It's certainly odd and a new idea to me.

Everything else looks good.

Firebringer · Post Post #22 (ISO) » Sat Nov 05, 2016 7:41 am

In post 21, Cephrir wrote:I don't think you can do this. It's certainly odd and a new idea to me.

I have actually seen this done in open setups.

Dierfire · Post Post #23 (ISO) » Sun Nov 06, 2016 12:49 am

@Cephrir

The first sets a maximum, not a minimum. In my previously moderated games I have had no difficulty beating the limit by significant margins (one transition went to 23 hours and one to 17, but a transition of 1-3 hours was the rule), and I am confident that the players will have no cause for complaint.
It is true that the rule is largely a holdover from my games on another site in which a greater focus on narratives kept me writing for longer periods of time, and I suppose that the rule could be eliminated as it serves no purpose other than my personal guarantee that no transition will exceed 24 hours, but I see no special reason why it should cause any of the players undue distress.

The second I am prepared to concede is new and odd. Is there a reason that it is not acceptable?

ISO · Post Post #24 (ISO) » Sun Nov 06, 2016 6:58 am

Well, I don't see any reason for it. Strategic self-voting, while you may not agree with it and it may not be a very good strategy, does exist.