-Gunsmith gets results as "has a gun" (vigilante, all mafia), "does not have a gun", or "no result" (ascetic).
-Tracker gets results as "playername visited (players that person targeted)", "playername did not visit", or "no result" (ascetic).
-The target of the loud fruit vendor is informed "Playername visited you last night" and is separately told "You received a piece of fruit last night".
-Mafia may both kill and action.
-Loud, because it is not currently whitelisted, would be my graylist role.
(Here the extra town role is the tracker since I feel the town is too weak without them, I don't want to gate the gunsmith, and I didn't see much point in gating the vig.)
Role PMs:
Vanilla Townie wrote:Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,
Playername
.
You are a
Vanilla Townie
.
Your only weapons are your voice and your vote.
You win when all threats to the
town
are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.
Good luck and have fun!
Gunsmith wrote:Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,
Playername
.
You are a
Town Gunsmith
.
During the night, target a player. You will receive results in the form of "Playername has a gun", "Playername does not have a gun", or "No result".
You win when all threats to the
town
are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.
Good luck and have fun!
Vigilante wrote:Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,
Playername
.
You are a
Town Vigilante
.
During the night, target a player. Should your action succeed, that player will be killed.
You win when all threats to the
town
are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.
Good luck and have fun!
Ascetic Townie wrote:Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,
Playername
.
You are an
Ascetic Townie
.
Any non-killing actions targeting you will fail.
You win when all threats to the
town
are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.
Good luck and have fun!
Tracker wrote:Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,
Playername
.
You are a
Town Tracker
.
During the night, target a player. You will receive results in the form of "Playername visited (player/players that person targeted)", "Playername did not visit", or "No result".
You win when all threats to the
town
are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.
During the night, target a player. They will receive a piece of fruit.
Whenever you target a player, they will be informed that you targeted them, but not what action you used.
Should you choose to, during the night, you may select a player to kill. You must specify who is performing the kill.
You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.
Good luck and have fun!
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:09 pm
by Firebringer
This looks perfectly fine to me.
I assume scum don't have day chat?
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:11 pm
by mastina
They do; is that a problem for balance?
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 10:16 pm
by Firebringer
No, I mean it will have a impact on game but it's hard to determine balance effects since it's entirely based on who has it and how used.
I would rephrase game setup point two to specifically clarify this means scum chat (I am assuming that's where your putting it)
Posted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:25 pm
by mastina
I don't like limiting the specification to mafia as then it tells the game (both town and scum) that there is no outside daytalk aside from the mafia. (No masons, no neighborhoods, no neighborizers.) The "any and all" part leaves it intentionally ambiguous. Mafia role PMs also specify they can talk at any time. (And so will the mafia thread, when I make it.)
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 9:13 am
by mhsmith0
On first glance, a touch townsided unless the thought is loud fruit vendor appears pretty self-clearing? ungated Vig/GS/Tracker is a pretty solid combo (and ascetic automatically gets avoided by investigatives almost always, which helps narrow things down). The vig can get outed by either investigative PR potentially, but vig is usually gonna get in 2+ shots, which is a pretty strong outcome for town unless vig shots are REALLY bad.
I'm SLIGHTLY inclined to give mafia a 1-shot doctor (immune to the GS, and a very slight counter to the vig), but that may be a bit too much. Will mull it over.
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:41 am
by mastina
If the game is in any way townsided the solution would not for me be adding in scum power, even something weak like a 1x doctor (which I think swings the setup well into scumsided). I do in fact consider the loud fruit vendor to be fairly self-clearing for what it's worth: short of D1 lynch, N1 vig (or I suppose the fruit vendor sending to the player the vig shoots), or N1 gunsmith (all of which are admittedly possible), the role is going to be put in a very strong position from D2 onward.
If the role is outted at any point, I don't see the town realistically vigging, gunsmithing, or lynching it, which gives the mafia plenty of strength so long as they can keep the role from being eliminated prior to the point where it has been done. But there is in fact that very realistic chance of the role being eliminated prior to the point where it can be used effectively.
Basically, I realize both sides have some fairly strong roles. (Gunsmith/Vig both are strong, the loud fruit vendor is situationally strong--which is the best type of role to give a scumteam.) As a result, their early death does induce a certain level of swing. I feel like the level of swing is within acceptable margins though. The town has no protectives; their investigation roles are wide open to attack. If the town roles survive via not being outed and manage to produce results...they should be rewarded for that. If the scum fail to kill the town's PRs and let them generate results...they should be punished for that.
If the town fails to protect their PRs by outing them before results can be given...they should be punished for that. If the scum succeed in killing the town's PRs and deny them results...they should be rewarded for that. If the town manage to lynch the scum's PR, they should be rewarded. If the scum fail to utilize their PR to its potential, they should be punished for that. I won't say the town letting the scum's PR be used to its full potential is punishable, but I will say that if scum do utilize their PR to its full potential, they should be rewarded for that.
The setup, as it currently is, rewards good play from a side and punishes bad play from a side. At the same time, there is a built-in level of countermeasures against an early setback dooming a side--namely: if the scum lose their PR, they can still systematically kill off the town PRs (thanks to the town lacking protectives). If the town loses one of their PRs, they still have two others which are of respectable strength. Optimal play simply ensures that these situations are less likely for a side. While luck of the draw does factor in, this luck is mostly in who draws what roles.
I realize the scum if things go REALLY badly for them might complain. The game could end as early as D2, if scum lynched D1 and vigged N1. (Especially if the third is gunsmith guiltied.) They might think that the importance of their PR was overvalued in review, or that the town PRs were undervalued. (Which is one reason why I'd be willing to lose the tracker for what it's worth--that role was my bonus "if town needs it" role this game. Vig + Gunsmith is strong on its own.) But I honestly feel like if the town plays this well, and/or the scum plays this poorly, they should be allowed to have the appropriate game results.
The flipside of that also is that the game can get to lylo as early as D3: 13 alive D1 (10-3), mislynch, misvig, scum nightkill brings it to 10 alive D2 (7-3). Mislynch again, misvig, and scum nightkill brings it to 7 alive (4-3). It does not take much for the scum to win, especially since the vig can kill town PRs, the gunsmith can investigate town PRs, and the town PRs can target the same player, all with a large probability. (Not to mention, scum also doing so with their nightkill.)
I feel like, numbers-wise, this setup does come out to balanced overall. (Perhaps theoretically heavy on the town side but pragmatically not so much.) The game will be shorter than your average mini normal--but not because one faction held a distinct edge over the other. IF the town is too strong as-is, then reducing the strength of (or outright removing) the tracker would be my preference, because I absolutely think that the scum should not be stronger and I absolutely do not want to nerf the gunsmith or the vig by gating them. (Though if the tracker is removed, I'd say the scum probably eek out a win realistically speaking, just off of probability of player skill level. Which brings up the question of balancing on theory or on play.)
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 11:56 am
by mastina
Potential compromise: gate the tracker to two-shot?
I mean, I realize it's gating the town's weakest PR, but it prevents the tracker from becoming absurdly overpowered if the gamestate reaches a point where there's only one scum left alive.
Posted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 12:02 pm
by mhsmith0
Yeah i think I'm ok with that as a compromise. Two full investigatives (even if tracker is mediocre early game, it's very strong late game) and a full vig is a lot of power for town without any direct counter from scum.
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 8:13 am
by Empking
I agree that gating the Traker is sensible.. PMs seem fine, save for it being ambighious whether "Loud" applies to the kill also (if he is the killer).
I assume pokes are not prods? Rules seem fine.
I never got scum being able to double-action, what results does the Tracker get in that case?
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:34 pm
by mastina
2x Tracker wrote:Welcome to Mini Normal *Number*,
Playername
.
You are a
Town Two-shot Tracker
.
During the night, you may target a player. You will receive results in the form of "Playername visited (player/players that person targeted)", "Playername did not visit", or "No result". You may only use this action twice.
You win when all threats to the
town
are eliminated, and at least one member of your faction is alive.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.
Good luck and have fun!
Posted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:34 pm
by mastina
In post 9, Empking wrote:PMs seem fine, save for it being ambighious whether "Loud" applies to the kill also (if he is the killer).
The role specifies "any" action, and the nightkill counts as an action, so yes. When the Loud Fruit Vendor makes a nightkill, the player targeted for the nightkill is informed. (Not that it matters, since there is no kill prevention method so if they get nightkilled by the Loud Fruit Vendor, they die no matter what, but if the mafia ask about it this will be my answer.)
I assume pokes are not prods?
Correct.
I never got scum being able to double-action, what results does the Tracker get in that case?
The tracker is given the players the mafia targeted: both the nightkill, and the target of the mafia's role action. (In this case, the fruit vend target plus the nightkill.)
Updated tracker PM...accidentally posted right before this post, but seen above in post 10.
During the night, target a player. They will receive a piece of fruit.
Whenever you target a player with any action, they will be informed that you targeted them, but not what action you used.
Should you choose to, during the night, you may select a player to kill. You must specify who is performing the kill.
You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this.
The game thread is here.
Please confirm your role via PM.
Good luck and have fun!
Better?
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 4:15 pm
by mhsmith0
I'm ok w setup. Nervous the fruit vendor isn't as strong as mastina thinks it is, but I don't think it's totally townsided if it turns out to basically be useless (especially if fruit vendor does clever stuff like confirming the ascetic w his night action). Town has reasonable odds of coordinating well, but it's gonna be swingy on whether the vig is any good or not, and/or the gunsmith targets the vig.
OP:
looks good
Role PMs:
scum: "You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this." change "and" to "or", otherwise ok
That said, are you announcing as single ball or no? Scum role PMs make it clear to them it's single ball, town role PMs don't. If htat's intentional, im ok w it, but want to make sure it's intentional.
Other notes:
Not really, looks good
Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 8:40 pm
by mastina
In post 14, mhsmith0 wrote:scum: "You win when you control 50% of the living and nothing can prevent this." change "and" to "or", otherwise ok
I don't see why this is necessary wording-wise.
That said, are you announcing as single ball or no?
It's in the OP, yes, that the game is explicitly 10:3.
Scum role PMs make it clear to them it's single ball, town role PMs don't.
I don't see how the scum role PMs make it clear it's single-ball since I use that exact same wording in multiball (and in fact it is a bit of a tipoff to them to look out for it), but yes. I do intentionally leave my role PMs as ambiguous, as to give me a consistent template for role PMs which can be applied across games.
For
this specific game
, the setup is explicitly 10:3. I like having the flexibility to verbatim copy role PMs from one game to another though, and in that other game I may choose NOT to disclose that information.
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:51 am
by mastina
Yo.
Nexus has no games in signups right now, I'm sure he'd appreciate having a game there and I'd be more than happy to volunteer but that's not exactly something I can do on my own.
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:52 am
by mhsmith0
Well I approved it so it's not my fault
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:20 am
by Empking
You solved my issues
/approved
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:23 am
by Firebringer
Ill examine this later.
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:26 pm
by Firebringer
I want it noted I hate full vigilante in this.
But I guess it will be fine.
Approved by Fire
Posted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 7:30 pm
by mhsmith0
In post 15, mastina wrote:I don't see why this is necessary wording-wise.
FWIW, the "and" is redundant. If scum control 50% of the vote, clearly nothing can prevent it because it already happened.
The "or" is there in case something like a MYLO mislynch with no protective/killing/blocking power for town still alive. There, scum have yet to reach 50%, but they still achieve wincon because 50% is inevitable, so rather than forcing through a boring night phase, the mod has the option to just end it at the mislynch.
Posted: Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:59 pm
by mastina
By the way, noting it in here: I'm V/LA on the weekend, so I may not be able to start my game until some time on Monday. (Monday, some time later on Monday by PST, so basically Tuesday by standards elsewhere in the world.) Don't pull me from signups if that happens, please.
