No daytalk, no plurality lynch, nothing unusual in the rules or mechanics.
(Will provide role PMs on demand; my experience says roles often change during review, so I prefer to wait until the setup passes for balance.)
Notes:
My understanding is that a Loud Goon should commit factional nightkills loudly (that is, the targeted player will be alerted that they were targeted and by whom).
"Town Visitor" could be replaced with any nearly-zero-utility town role; its purpose in the game is to investigate to the Neapolitan as non-vanilla.
I need to check but I believe precedent is to not apply loud to factionao actions like nightkills
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:59 am
by Ircher
In post 2, RadiantCowbells wrote:I need to check but I believe precedent is to not apply loud to factionao actions like nightkills
From mastina's review (the second) which featured a Mafia Loud Fruit Vendor:
In post 11, mastina wrote:In post 9, Empking wrote:
PMs seem fine, save for it being ambighious whether "Loud" applies to the kill also (if he is the killer).
The role specifies "any" action, and the nightkill counts as an action, so yes. When the Loud Fruit Vendor makes a nightkill, the player targeted for the nightkill is informed. (Not that it matters, since there is no kill prevention method so if they get nightkilled by the Loud Fruit Vendor, they die no matter what, but if the mafia ask about it this will be my answer.)
(I think they passed it using the above definition.)
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:55 pm
by Ircher
I actually think this setup might be balanced?
Like if anything, I'm worried that it is too town-sided, but Neopolitan is strictly weaker than Cop, and going by the Matrix6 results with Cop + 6 VTs vs. 2 Goons, I think this setup is balanced by the fact that the mafia are loud and at least one of them is almost certainly going to be lynched due to a visitor CC (really likely). I don't think both will by the virtue of their roles though....
Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2018 2:10 pm
by Umlaut
I'm here.
If it's decided this is a bit townsided I could change the Visitor to something explicitly negative-utility like Macho Townie, since all I really care about is that it's not vanilla. Or if it's a bit scumsided I could make it something mildly useful like Voyeur.
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:45 am
by RadiantCowbells
It's not necessarily a question of balance so much as the interactions in this setup are terrible
I'm not a fan at all of the nea getting outed D1 and that feeding town a guilty via bodyguard
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:46 am
by RadiantCowbells
Can we make the nea macho
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:56 am
by Umlaut
I'd counter that Mafia knowing they're both loud have enough information to guess that making the incredibly obvious move of killing an outed investigative is a Bad Idea, and if they don't realize that then being outed by the protect is a fair punishment for bad nightplay. But if you disagree after consideration then I can rework to avoid that.
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 9:59 am
by RadiantCowbells
ok but like
what is the counterplay here
you either let the nea take night actions or you take a free guilty on one of you
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:25 am
by Umlaut
Yeah... it seems like the basic issue here is that there's no detriment to town for the nea to be outed.
Don't know if making him macho would fix that, given the popularity of minimal claims like "I'm an investigative" that wouldn't actually even tell BG or scum he was macho. Could instead give Mafia a 1-Shot Strongman, so they have a counterplay available but it's still up to them to use it properly. This would potentially reveal to the BG in that situation there's a strongman but I don't think the information would actually be actionable for Town.
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:35 am
by Umlaut
Actually I really like that; that set of roles pretty much screams to the Mafia "If you shoot at someone you'd better be sure that someone actually dies; you get one shot where that's guaranteed; you're on your own for the rest."
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:40 am
by RadiantCowbells
Yeah but like strongman and bodyguard is such overkill
I think it's much more enjoyable for all parties if the nea simply cannot be protected but the bodyguard gets a guilty for correctly protecting town off of play merits
The strongman version is balanced but feels bad for scum
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:42 am
by RadiantCowbells
Feels bad for the bodyguard, sorry
Otherwise you're talking a guaranteed 1/2 of the nightkills before lylo made unprotectable and I think the bodyguard would be really mad if they blocked correctly but strongman, it's better if the unprotectable is tied to the PR itself imo
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:50 am
by Umlaut
I see what you mean. My only remaining worry in the macho case is that if the nea derpclaims as unmodified, this actually goes better for town than if he claimed fully since either a goon will get outed or the mafia will avoid the kill for fear of that. If you don't think that's a serious problem then I'll run the version you suggested. I'll start working on Role PMs in a bit.
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 10:55 am
by RadiantCowbells
I think scum will just take the shot on the nea regardless
That's what I'd prefer, if you like the strongman version I can pass it as well
Posted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:32 am
by Umlaut
No, your point about "but Strongman!" being unfun for the Bodyguard is well taken. I'll go with your version.
2x
Mafia Loud Goon
1x
Town Macho Neapolitan
1x
Town Bodyguard
1x
Town Visitor
4x
Vanilla Townie
Spoiler: Role PMs
What is some reasonably in-flavor yet unambiguous wording for a "you were targeted by" message? (I hate using the word 'targeted by' since it sounds more like a game mechanic than an "in-universe" description of what the character saw, but I'm worried that something like 'visited by' might imply a Visitor specifically.)
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:43 am
by Umlaut
Night result PMs
There are no mechanics that can block an investigation so a "no result" PM is unnecessary.
Is there anything else I need before this is passed?
Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:10 pm
by RadiantCowbells
Go for it
Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:03 am
by Umlaut
Planning to add the following section to the top of the rules post
Days are 240 hours (10 days); nights are 48 hours (2 days).
Standard 48/24 prod timers.
Standard lynch mechanics.
No default daytalk.
This is just consolidating information already in the post. I don't see any reason it would be a problem but I'm quoting the edit here for thoroughness' sake.
Posted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 5:48 pm
by Umlaut
This game has ended and this thread can be safely made public.