James Brafin's mini normal review, August 2018
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On first glance I don't think town has enough power. Tracker is useless for all intents and purposes. Vig, babysitter and vengeful together will probably cause 2 extra deaths which isn't bad but it's super unpredictable.
Compulsive visitor is basically useless.
Weak babysitter is just mean, because you want to target town but if you target town the night you die it screws town over royally.
First thought is remove the scum roleblocker completely and it may be balanced. Will have to think about it more in depth though.
Compulsive visitor is basically useless.
Weak babysitter is just mean, because you want to target town but if you target town the night you die it screws town over royally.
First thought is remove the scum roleblocker completely and it may be balanced. Will have to think about it more in depth though.
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A mafia manipulative role wouldn't be out of place, but it would be too scumsided without giving town more power. Town will probably have enough difficulty getting their shit in order as it is.In post 15, the worst wrote:any suggestions on how we could knock this down a peg? I think there's enough shenanigans that a mafia manipulative role isn't too out of place, but maybe something less powerful?
Either you or James can answer this, but why is the vigilante novice? Is it just to limit the number of potential kills early on?
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You shouldn't depend on tracker to be useful in a 3-scum game.
And even two roleblock shots is a lot in a game that can literally end by N2. I don't really see the need for a roleblock (given that scum can counter PR's by killing them and town's protective power is sketchy at best) or a ninja (tracker is weak enough to not need a counter).
If you really like the ninja/roleblock idea, then I'd recommend replacing the tracker with a watcher. That might bring the game into the realm of balanced, although I might want to upgrade the watcher to some kind of weak investigative like motion detector as well.
That said, I am the secondary reviewer and you are not obligated to listen to me, but I think that most likely either the town PR's will have good reads and make scum feel like they never had a chance, or the town will eat itself alive and then complain about the lack of investigative power.
And even two roleblock shots is a lot in a game that can literally end by N2. I don't really see the need for a roleblock (given that scum can counter PR's by killing them and town's protective power is sketchy at best) or a ninja (tracker is weak enough to not need a counter).
If you really like the ninja/roleblock idea, then I'd recommend replacing the tracker with a watcher. That might bring the game into the realm of balanced, although I might want to upgrade the watcher to some kind of weak investigative like motion detector as well.
That said, I am the secondary reviewer and you are not obligated to listen to me, but I think that most likely either the town PR's will have good reads and make scum feel like they never had a chance, or the town will eat itself alive and then complain about the lack of investigative power.
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Weak can't produce a hard inno with a roleblocker either. But the odds of the weak's inno being town are good enough that it's probably worth it to just treat it as such.
I think I would probably pass this. I do think 2-shot ninja roleblocker is confusing though.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how exactly ninja works with another role and I'm having trouble, actually. A 2-shot ninja roleblocker sounds like they can roleblock someone in a way that can't be seen, but it says that a ninja applies to ALL actions taken so it's weird that a scum ninja would not be able to make a ninja kill, and there's no normal precedent to have a modifier only apply to a specific action: for instance, you couldn't have a 2-shot bulletproof roleblocker that was only bulletproof when it used its roleblock. You'd have to make it a 2-shot bulletproof 2-shot roleblocker, but if you try to apply that to ninja then you end up with a 2-shot ninja 2-shot roleblocker which can either ninja or roleblock each night, since it's not multitasking. I think.
What did you INTEND for the ninja roleblocker to be able to do? Hopefully we can work out the correct name from there.
I think I would probably pass this. I do think 2-shot ninja roleblocker is confusing though.
I'm trying to wrap my head around how exactly ninja works with another role and I'm having trouble, actually. A 2-shot ninja roleblocker sounds like they can roleblock someone in a way that can't be seen, but it says that a ninja applies to ALL actions taken so it's weird that a scum ninja would not be able to make a ninja kill, and there's no normal precedent to have a modifier only apply to a specific action: for instance, you couldn't have a 2-shot bulletproof roleblocker that was only bulletproof when it used its roleblock. You'd have to make it a 2-shot bulletproof 2-shot roleblocker, but if you try to apply that to ninja then you end up with a 2-shot ninja 2-shot roleblocker which can either ninja or roleblock each night, since it's not multitasking. I think.
What did you INTEND for the ninja roleblocker to be able to do? Hopefully we can work out the correct name from there.
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If the ninja can be used every night then the watcher should probably be ungated, since the scum having a full ninja ought to expect a watcher and play accordingly (and because watcher can't get innos). Ninja 2-shot roleblocker is very clear, if that's the way you want it to be.
The difference between loud 2-shot doctor and 2-shot loud doctor, I think, is that the former is also loud when they commit the mafia kill. That's a scenario that's very unlikely to come up (would require a babysitter save), but which do you want it to be?
The difference between loud 2-shot doctor and 2-shot loud doctor, I think, is that the former is also loud when they commit the mafia kill. That's a scenario that's very unlikely to come up (would require a babysitter save), but which do you want it to be?
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I mean... weak babysitter is an investigative that also has several ways to get screwed over. It's very unlikely to trade with scum (you have to be killed the first night you target scum). If you want something that can trade with scum, I'd go for a regular babysitter, but I wouldn't have that along with vig.In post 46, James Brafin wrote:Is there a better way to do weak babysitter that I’m not thinking about? The point of him is he’s trying to trade with scum pretty much without PGO (which I wanted). And they can conftown people, which is nice.
Unless you mean that they soft their actions and then if they die, the scum gets outed. Then I don't see why it's not a weak something else-- even just a weak visitor if you wanted to bring back the visitor idea.
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My recommendations, in order to be completely accurate and clear:
Visitor: "If you target an anti-town player at night, you will die." -> "If you
Vengeful: "When you are lynched, you may target another player in the game to attempt to kill them." -> "When you are lynched, you may
Watcher: "You will not be informed what the abilities were." -> "You will not be informed what
Ninja: "All actions you take will show up as no action to any hypothetical tracker, watcher or similar investigative role who targets you." -> EITHER "All actions you take will
And it might not be a bad idea to put a reminder in the mafia role PM's (or if not, at least in the OP of the mafia topic) that they can't kill and action.
Of course all these are minor, but I think they'll probably help to cut down on misinterpretations, at least.
Visitor: "If you target an anti-town player at night, you will die." -> "If you
successfully visit
an anti-town player at night, you will die."Vengeful: "When you are lynched, you may target another player in the game to attempt to kill them." -> "When you are lynched, you may
kill another player in the game.
" (pretty
sure vengeful kill can't be stopped)Watcher: "You will not be informed what the abilities were." -> "You will not be informed what
actions those players took.
"Ninja: "All actions you take will show up as no action to any hypothetical tracker, watcher or similar investigative role who targets you." -> EITHER "All actions you take will
not be detectable by a Tracker, Watcher, Follower, Voyeur, or Motion Detector.
" OR "All actions you take will not be seen as visiting for any investigative roles.
"And it might not be a bad idea to put a reminder in the mafia role PM's (or if not, at least in the OP of the mafia topic) that they can't kill and action.
Of course all these are minor, but I think they'll probably help to cut down on misinterpretations, at least.
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