gobbledygook wrote:Actually I have a different setup in mind.
=== Rules ===
Rules
Totally and completely stolen from PenguinePower who stole his rules shamelessly stolen from various moderators.
Spoiler: Sample Role PM
=== Setup ===
13 players
1 Ascetic Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Neighbor
1 Mafia Goon
vs
6 Vanilla Townies
1 Town Tracker
1 Even-Night Neapolitan Neighbor
1 Town Neighbor
1 Informed Townie (there is no roleblocker or jailkeeper in the game)
=== Role PMs ===
--- Mafia PMs ---
Ascetic Mafia Goon
Mafia Neighbor
Mafia Goon
--- Town PMs ---
Vanilla Townie
Tracker
Even-Night Neapolitan
Neighbor
Informed Townie
Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:50 pm
by implosion
Primary: schadd_
Secondary: PenguinPower
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 3:16 am
by gobbledygook
Oh this is awkward when I stole PP’s rules
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:35 am
by PenguinPower
Guess I have no problem with your rule set then!
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 7:01 am
by schadd_
1 Ascetic Mafia Goon
1 Mafia Neighbor
1 Mafia Goon
vs
6 Vanilla Townies
1 Town Tracker
1 Even-Night Neapolitan Neighbor
1 Town Neighbor
1 Informed Townie (there is no roleblocker or jailkeeper in the game)
i would call this a little scumsided. ascetic is good against tracker, as the ascetic person can simply perpetrate the kill. i think the point of the informed townie is that there's the potential gotcha where the tracker (or, less likely, neapolitan) finds the ascetic and then the informed townie tells them: you weren't roleblocked that person is ascetic or something. i think that's a very small consideration - to begin with there is also possibility of rolestopper, alien and commuter; also it relies on everybody relevant surviving to a massclaim situation, and the ascetic not just immediately claiming ascetic which is a common thing
moreover if there is somebody informed "there are no roleblockers, rolestoppers, aliens, jailkeepers, commuters" and they see somebody claim ascetic it's possible they realize their role is supposed to catch out a mafia ascetic, and just claim a guilty on the mafia ascetic. or something
i would call the setup sort of scumsided without the mafia ascetic - generally in 10v3 with 3 goons (or 3 non-useful scum roles) you expect town to have the power of about 2 strong roles, so like, neapolitan and vigilante for instance. i'd say tracker is a slightly worse than strong role , as is a gated neapolitan. and then, i would describe the ascetic as power for mafia here, it's up to them whether they want to claim it and it is a pretty strong foil to the tracker. i don't think the inform is all that helpful for town as discussed, and neighbors don't generally provide power for either alignment to a significant degree (moreover: both of the neighbors are bad for the neapolitan)
i would call this balanced if, for instance, the town neighbor was a full vigilante in addition to neighbor
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 8:15 am
by gobbledygook
So I’ve been meaning to ask, is it not standard to flip the full role pm of people who die? Some Normal mods flip the role pm, some just reveal the name of the role. I would think even if Informed Townie dies, it’s information could be used by the town, not just in mass claim.
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:01 am
by PenguinPower
It would not be normal for the Informed Town to flip with their “informed” information.
In terms of flipping full role pm, I don’t think that’s necessary in normals games since there is consistency between each role type. That would be more important in Themed games. Of course, nothing is stopping you from doing it as long as you don’t out information you shouldn’t.
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 9:23 am
by gobbledygook
So schad you’re suggesting making the other town neighbor a vigilante neighbor? Just so I have that clear
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 1:06 pm
by implosion
In post 6, PenguinPower wrote:It would not be normal for the Informed Town to flip with their “informed” information.
In terms of flipping full role pm, I don’t think that’s necessary in normals games since there is consistency between each role type. That would be more important in Themed games. Of course, nothing is stopping you from doing it as long as you don’t out information you shouldn’t.
Just posting to say this is correct. Roles should never flip in a way that reveals any hidden information they had: obviously mafia shouldn't have their partners outed when they die, but also informed players should not have that information made public and neighbors should not have the other members of their neighborhood made public. Basically you can post a redacted role PM if you want, but it should reveal the same thing as if their role name had just been posted without a role PM.
Posted: Sat Dec 14, 2019 6:36 pm
by schadd_
In post 7, gobbledygook wrote:So schad you’re suggesting making the other town neighbor a vigilante neighbor? Just so I have that clear
sure! feel free to suggest any other change you'd like obviously
also i hope my issue with the inform is clear
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 3:39 am
by gobbledygook
It is clear. I did intend it to be like a gotcha in the ascetic as the other PRs could not directly get a guilty on it. I will say that the only safe claim they could make is a commuter/ascetic. Role stopper and alien require another mafia to claim too which makes it dangerous to tie two scum up like that. I personally find ascetic and commuter to be scummy roles and if I was in their position would not claim anything.
So in this case should I just get rid of the informed all together and add the vigilante?
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:48 am
by schadd_
In post 10, gobbledygook wrote:Role stopper and alien require another mafia to claim too which makes it dangerous to tie two scum up like that. I personally find ascetic and commuter to be scummy roles and if I was in their position would not claim anything.
So in this case should I just get rid of the informed all together and add the vigilante?
re rolestopper / alien: there is always the possibility that one of those roles exists from scum that isn't claiming it but ascetic/commuter would probably be the safest claim yes
getting rid of informed & adding vig would be fine yeah.
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 8:58 am
by gobbledygook
What’s the Lynch rate on informed townies? In minis, they seem like they’d essentially be IC.
———
I am ok switching the neighbor to vig and turning the unformed townie to a vanilla townie unless we want to switch the informed townie to vig and leave the other town neighbor alone?
I am a little worried about there being a full vig in a mini. My instinct is to make it 2 shot to get back to odds.
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 9:34 am
by schadd_
i dunno! i think just "informed townie" isn't used very often, usually if you want an inform that affects how a PR is used you will just give it to the PR. my instinct is that it would not be lynched much more or less than just a vanilla townie.
the vig can also be a neighbor if that's what you want (i.e., neighbor vigilante would be a legal role). you can also change the informed townie to vig, not a big deal - it would make the neapolitan slightly better if you add it to the neighbor (in fact, if the full vig thing bothers you then i would advise adding a 2-shot vig to the neighbor - i'm fine either way, full vig in a mini is not uncommon at all)
Posted: Sun Dec 15, 2019 10:20 am
by gobbledygook
2-Shot Vigilante Neighbor
---
I think with the introduction of the vigilante, I want to remove the Informed Townie altogether to make the Neapolitan a little bit stronger.
Ok, so including Schadd's suggestions, a bird's eye view of the setup looks like this:
The scumteam doesn’t want to kill in the hood because people assume it will contain a scum. That might be their undoing.
Posted: Mon Jan 20, 2020 4:25 am
by gobbledygook
I think the scumteam trying not to bus is going to be problematic in the future.
Posted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 3:18 pm
by gobbledygook
Any word of advice for you Aaron, it’s that you should only claim scum when you hammer yourself. Allowing town to know you’re scum and get the rest of the deadline to talk about it puts your team in a tough spot.
Posted: Fri Jan 24, 2020 10:59 am
by gobbledygook
Vig is killing alchemist
Tracker is tracking alchemist