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mastina
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Post Post #77 (isolation #0) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:27 pm

Post by mastina »

In post 33, mastina wrote:So the town in this game has:
A rolestopper.
A jailkeeper.
A bodyguard.
Plus the lynched roles.
A bulletproof Oracle.
Some form of Vig (even if that was just 1x but I suspect otherwise)
An IC.
A 3 man neighborhood which from setup perspective is PAINFULLY obvious to the town as being a masonry.
AND MORE.
Almost all of which are upgradeable.

Against a gated rolecop and what amounts to a shitty Superdaint-Janitor.
With a traitor whose recruitment method we don't know.

There's only one appropriate response:
In post 28, mastina wrote:
In post 27, mastina wrote:
In post 26, mastina wrote:BTW jjh I wrote a jingle for this game, but it is something which I will need to sing.

Since I can only sing when alone on a computer, that probably means not tonight, but.
You have a treat to look forward to.
This jingle will reference how our only power is a nerfed rolecop, my role requires me to die, we don't have a proper third scummate and have no clue how our traitor operates, and the town by contrast has a fucking bulletproof oracle (bulletproof of THE STRONGEST POSSIBLE TOWN ROLE IF USED WITH EVEN A MODICUM OF COMPETENCY), a full town rolestopper, and a Vig of some sort, plus a neighborhood which is a masonry, with UPGRADING TOWN ROLES ON TOP OF THAT when zero scum roles interact with the upgrade mechanic, AMONG THE VERY LONG LIST OF ISSUES THIS GAME.

My jingle once I post it will be the only good thing to have come from this. Fucking. Game.
So as promised, I recorded the jingle. I haven't given it a title yet, am open to feedback.
My first thought was something along the lines of 'bovine defecation', but that doesn't roll off the tongue too well. I'd prefer something shorter, saaaayyy, two syllables instead of six.
Let me know if you have any thoughts after you give it a listen:
BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!


Badum Badum Badadadada
Badum Badum Badummmm
Badum Badum Badadadada
Badum Badum Badummmm

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin' bullshit.

You know what this game iiisss?
It's a stinking pile of shiiiiiit!

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!


Badum Badum Badadadada
Badum Badum Badummmm
Badum Badum Badadadada
Badum Badum Badummmm

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin' bullshit.

Fake trumpet solo!

Badum Badum Badadadada
Badum Badum Badummmm
Badum Badum Badadadada
Badum Badum Badummmm

Badum Badum BADADADADA
Badum Badum BADUMMMM
Badum Badum BADADADADA
Badum Badum BADUMMMM

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!


Badum Badum Badadadada
Badum Badum Badummmm
Badum Badum Badadadada
Badum Badum Badummmm

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!


BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is stinkin'
BULLSHIT!

BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT!

This game is bullshit,
So fuck this game I'm outttt...
Just sharing this for the pleasure of the dead thread.
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mastina
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Post Post #78 (isolation #1) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:00 am

Post by mastina »

In post 76, jjh927 wrote:So now I get to defend the setup from Mastina
It's still not balanced.
Conditional deathproof traitor is literally the entirety of the scum's power.
The ENTIRETY of the scum's power, is a role that they know NOTHING about.

We knew there was a traitor.
We knew fuckall about the traitor. Not who they were, not how to recruit them, not even that we COULD recruit them.

My role REQUIRED me to die--and the deathproof traitor is ALSO incentivized to die. Two scum REQUIRED to die to use their roles. Did you not think about what it means for all but one scum, to be REQUIRED to eat a lynch/nightkill, in order for their roles to come into affect? Yes, one of said scum would survive said role coming into affect, but it's still them requiring to eat a death, when the scum want deaths to be on town players.

Deathproof scum being lynched, is worse than town being lynched.
Janitoring scum being lynched, is worse than town being lynched.
Deathproof scum being nightkilled, is worse than town being nightkilled.
Janitoring scum being nightkilled, is worse than town being nightkilled.

Scum were incentivized BY THEIR ROLES to eat lynch and/or vig and/or their own factional nightkill.
That is a lynch which isn't on a town player, or a vig that isn't on a town player, or a factional nightkill that isn't on a town player.

Then on top of that--town has the strongest possible town investigative in the game with laughable restrictions.
Being macho means fuckall, the role is still brokenly powerful. Scum killing it is a free shot, sure...
...IF they can get a shot off on it.
Because, again.
They are incentivized, as scum, to eat deaths, AS SCUM, that should be aimed at town.
And then on top of that--jailkeepers might not save the oracle if protecting the oracle, but can block the scum's nightkill.
Rolestoppers, if you go by Normal standards, can block the scum's nightkill--Macho means protective actions fail, but rolestopper isn't classified as a protective action, it is classified as a roleblocking action that roleblocks everyone else targeting the macho player.
That, not to mention the town roles on top of that.
Another protective who can protect anyone other than the macho player.
A neighborhood which was PAINFULLY obvious via ridiculously easy to deduce setup spec was a masonry instead of a neighborhood. (Anyone with half a brain could tell that all three members of the neighborhood were town, Xtoxm was dead on the money with his setup spec and reasoning for believing the members to be town because he nailed it through simple logic.) Like, the town thinking the members aren't town is pure stupidity on their parts to be frank.
There's whatever alimidia (apparently an investigative of some sort?) and Turkey (who is apparently not actually the traitor) are.
There's an IC.

There was never a realm scum really had a chance at winning this game from a role-design perspective. The town had a BOATLOAD of tools at their disposal. The scum had fuckall in terms of tools.
The scum lacked information, as the "informed" minority.
The scum lacked interaction with the mechanic the setup is based around, whereas the town roles were built and based around it.
The scum were incentivized to eat lynches/nightkills rather than to lynch town/nightkill town/have town be vigged, in order to utilize their roles.

The scum, simply put, didn't have any of the tools at their disposal, that make scum be scum.
Scum have the tools of being the informed minority (we lacked information) and being able to remove players from the game during the night (there were multiple killstopping roles in the game and the scum's own roles were MEANT TO DRAW KILLS).

The roles I mentioned in my post might not be the ones in the setup.
The sentiment behind my song stands.

Scum could never win this game even if Suji didn't vig two scum basically in a row--because the town has tools which give them far, far more information than what the scum have at their disposal, have multiple kill-denial methods, and the scum's normal tools weren't at their disposal.

Giving scum a conditional deathproof traitor, does no counterbalance the detrimental nature of the game to the scum.

Like, was popsofctown a bad nightkill?
No, a rolestopper in most games is a DAMN fucking good nightkill.
Was Xtoxm a bad nightkill?
No, a jailkeeper "neighbor"(read, mason) that upgrades the town's roles, in most games, is a DAMN fucking good nightkill.
Was Sujimichi a bad nightkill?
No, a Vig, in most games, is a DAMN fucking good nightkill.

But the scum have too fucking many players to nightkill, and not enough nights to kill them all, especially not when so many of those nightkills very easily could have not gone according to plan.

We can't nightkill them all, we can't reliably steer the vig into vigging them all, and we can't get the town to lynch them all.

The town had multiple roles capable of basically confirming themselves as town.
The town had multiple ways of PoEing the scum.
And the scum had one role that could MAYBE give them an edge, POSSIBLY, if used in a very specific way in a very narrow window.

I feel like my rant is fucking justified here.

I won't deny that Sujimichi is a god at vigging; that's undeniable. This isn't the first time Sujimichi has made clutch vigs.
And I won't deny that multiple town players have played well--Xtoxm did, Suji did, and Something_Smart's slot has done so the whole game.
So like--the town still has earned the win and scum did nothing to deserve the win and everything to deserve the loss on play.

But like.
That doesn't excuse the setup.

It is in no way even remotely close to balanced and is TREMENDOUSLY townsided.
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mastina
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Post Post #79 (isolation #2) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:18 am

Post by mastina »

To put it another way:
Even if every town player aside from Something_Smart that was alive, were a VT or even strictly-100%-negative-utility role that couldn't help the town in any way shape or form even remotely.

I'd still call the setup townsided by a reasonable margin, even with Something_Smart being macho.

That they are probably not lying about having roles even if they're fibbing about the exact nature of their roles, just serves to tip the scales even further.

There's a reason that the town was expecting strong scum roles like a fucking full scum strongman--Eve's BP being deathproof traitor scum (and thus, not a town role) and SS's slot inverting macho<->bulletproof and whatever other lies there are, don't do enough for people's expectations to not be there.

The town had SUCH strong roles, that they are very right to suspect scum had strong roles.
Except we didn't.
We had a negative utility role and a role of situational utility that was also more negative utility to the groupscum than it was positive utility. The Deathproof Traitor is, in of itself, a NET NEUTRAL role overall, if I'm being GENEROUS; a role that could have equal good and bad for the scumteam in its use (but a heavy lean towards it being more bad).

Yet the setup was balanced with the expectation that said role would be incredibly strong for the scumteam, that it would be a huge net benefit for them, that the scum would with that role alone be super-brokenly strong, so the town got to load up on things to counterbalance a role that was just not thought out with how its implementation would have consequences on the scumteam's ability to function as a scumteam.

I'm not mad about the inevitable loss; I don't give a damn about it. If the game were 9 VTs + a town vig, versus three goons, then I'd have proudly ate the loss to the town anyway because Suji is a god and deserves the win and wasn't the only town player to play good.

But I don't think calling the game even remotely close to balanced is in any way remotely accurate. It just outright wasn't.

More than that--it's just not fun.

I'll happily play a game that's unbalanced if it is in any way, shape, or form, fun.

But this mechanic isn't.
It's not fun to the scum.
I doubt Eve is having fun with this role.
I most certainly wasn't having fun as scum; the only fun I had was that which I created with the song.
And I actually wouldn't be surprised for the town to also not be having fun, for much the reasons popsofctown mentioned. The role of the deathproof traitor just isn't fun for them to play around, and this game having the mechanics it does, just isn't very conductive to fun, though maybe I'm mistaken there. (I wasn't town so I can't speak to if town is having fun, but I can tell you that if I were town here, I probably wouldn't be enjoying the game much more than I did as scum.)

If something's unbalanced but still enjoyable, it's something I can accept.
If something's balanced but not really enjoyable, probably not ideal, but I can still accept it.
But when something is incredibly unbalanced AND incredibly unfun.

I feel like I'm in my fucking right to rant about it.
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