electoral college mafia (now its done watch it go)

[mastina]

Hi I am a mason.

[mastina]

GROUP 2

not voting (3):

mastina, bugspray, Randy Savage

For the record:
schadd would expect me to townbloc with the players in my voting block. (I've VERY good reason to believe this to be the case.)

He tried to make things as Evil as possible, per his word.

If he knows my personality and thus knows that I would naturally be inclined to townbloc with my group...it then follows, he inverted it, making the group be scum with the expectation that I would townbeard by townblocking with scum.

Therefore, bugspray and Randy Savage are both scum.

VOTE: bugspray
(Not that it matters much if my theory is correct tho.)

[mastina]

GROUP 1

not voting (8):

Xtoxm, quiet, Noraa, Auro, Gypyx, tris, Anya, VFP

GROUP 2

not voting (3):

mastina, bugspray, Randy Savage

GROUP 3

not voting (3):

Vaxkiller, Momrangal, mozamis

GROUP 4

not voting (3):

OutWorldER, lendunistus, flow trap

GROUP 5

not voting (1):

Flea the Magician

GROUP 6

not voting (1):

T3

Btw it follows that continuing the Evil distribution trend:
With {bugspray, Randy Savage} as scum, there's 2 scum left in the remaining group.
{Vaxkiller, Momrangal, mozamis} is going to be all town because they are going to naturally be inclined to scumread and heavily disagree with each other.

Which means 0-2 scum in {mega group}, 0-1 scum in {Outworlder, lendunistus, flow trap}, 0-2 scum in {Flea, T3}.

I'm not quite sure about how to read the second group of 3. I don't think it also has 2 scum but it's hard to say if it's all town or if it's 2 town 1 scum.
The solo voters, I'm inclined to believe have 0-1 scum, but I'm having a hard time gauging if it's 0 or 1. Gut says 0 tho, so I'll run with that.

Which means either 1, or 2, scum in the megagroup, and either 1, or none, scum in the {Outworlder, lendunistus, flow trap} group.

[mastina]

Momrangal
Vaxkiller
mozamis
Noraa/Tsutsu

Flea the Magician
T3

OutWorldER
lendunistus
flow trap

tris
Auro
Xtoxm
quiet
Anya
Gypyx
VFP


Randy Savage
bugspray

Basically-conftown, town, lean-town-right-now, still-sorting, scum.

[mastina]

what about this line, mastina?
"i will try not to create any obvious alignment information in these assignments (unless it is very funny)"

Because in this case it is indeed very funny.

When you see what role I have, you'll understand exactly why.

{Vaxkiller, Momrangal, mozamis} is going to be all town because they are going to naturally be inclined to scumread and heavily disagree with each other.

would they disagree only as town?

Hard to say, but there's no evil involved in them disagreeing and infighting with one as scum. That sort of disagreeing and infighting and paranoia and suspicion only qualifies as Evil if they are in fact all town.

[mastina]

I think I know how to read mastina now. She is town here.

If she's posting content, she's town; if she's not, she's not town.

So would 1Bs be more likely to be town since it would cause more dissonance
Or would they be more likely to be mafia to cause more town dissonance

If by 1Bs you mean the single-voters, I suspect town, but it's hard to tell; time will tell, with more posts.

damn, imagine if we'd been in a 3p bloc together, auro

Only way I see that happening is if one of you were scum because you two being town together in a 3p block is too OP.

Again I know better than to question an early town read, but I haven't even posted yet!?

Because gut + groupspec.

MSTINA WHAT IN THE WORLD IS THIISSS

Beauty, that's what. <3

Momrangal
Noraa/Tsutsu
Vaxkiller
mozamis

Auro
Xtoxm
Flea the Magician

T3

OutWorldER
lendunistus
flow trap

tris
quiet
VFP
Gypyx
Anya


Randy Savage
bugspray

Basically-conftown, strong town, weak town, lean town, still-sorting, scum.

[mastina]

You gotta roll scum at some point, right?

Gambler's fallacy

VOTE: flow trap
(not that it matters as I am paired with scum)
I'm quite liking my "paired with two scum" theory.

[mastina]

You gotta roll scum at some point, right?

Gambler's fallacy

VOTE: flow trap
(not that it matters as I am paired with scum)
I'm quite liking my "paired with two scum" theory.

I am a dummy dum dum for some reason I misremember flow trap as being in my group of three.

VOTE: bugspray

But that said I think that flow trap might be scum here.

[mastina]

Hey freak show! You're going nowhere. I got you for three minutes. Three minutes of PLAYTIME!

VOTE: Randy Savage

VOTE: Randy Savage

Can go here, too.

For what it's worth my hero-solve right now is {Randy Savage, bugspray, flow trap, Anya}.

[mastina]

haha. mastina can be tricky to get a handle on. at least for me.

Well this game I'm conftown so no need for sorting me.

[mastina]

Reflexive
Vigilante
Jailkeeper
All normal.

It's a good thing you claimed this since I was fully intending to target you N1 and would've accidentally suicided myself in having done so causing us to be down a conftown.

(I buy it, btw.)

[mastina]

the NRG ladies and gentelmen

Hey I already derped by thinking a player who isn't in my bloc was in my bloc, it should come as no surprise that I then derped by forgetting that Reflexive isn't a whitelisted modifier. (I assure you that if this were a review I would catch that but as a player I am not fully firing on all cylinders.)

However, I maintain that Momrangal's probably town here anyway, because I have a ~suspicion~ here. Momrangal's claimed Reflexive role can't be true due to Reflexive not being whitelisted, but I think I know what role she might ACTUALLY be softing through the fakeclaim. (Basically, there's two worlds: a botched fakeclaim from scum or a fakeclaim as town that serves as a soft for the real town role; I am assuming the latter.)

I don't really like how you keep pushing that even after it was stated that blocs are NAI

Where was that stated? Because I'm pretty sure the mod stated literally the opposite in fact.

how is poiting out a wrong point something scum to do?

It's not the pointing out a wrong point that makes it scum, it's the content posted in there which makes it scum.

[mastina]

however this paragraph is the extent of the bastardness: i will try not to create any obvious alignment information in these assignments (unless it is very funny)

And I have said that the "unless it is very funny" clause perfectly applies to me given my role. Putting me with two scum is EXACTLY what schadd_ would do here.

[mastina]

Are you worth a visit?

No, I should be visiting others not being visited.

suspects: mozamis, momrangal,

bugspray, flow trap

i guess i can share my thoughts on what i'd expect for the scum distribution,
something like 1 in {5,6} 2 in {2,3,4} with either 0-1-1 or 0-0-2 equally possible, and 1 in {1}
its highly speculative and im not planning to put a lot of weight on this, however.

Immediate townbloc. <3

[mastina]

Momrangal has been killed in the night! she was a

town combined jailkeeper mailman

!

Momrangal I TOLD you not to target me last night.

(I am assuming it was her targeting me unless someone wants to claim to be an odd-night alien-mailman, because I am assuming the message I got was from her gambiting on her role.)

Anyway, since yesterday was rushed through, not much has changed:
Noraa/Tsutsu
Vaxkiller
mozamis

Auro
Xtoxm
quiet/Almost50
Flea the Magician

T3

OutWorldER
lendunistus

tris
VFP
Gypyx
Anya


Randy Savage
bugspray

Locktown, townreading, lean town, nulltown, null, scum.
VOTE: bugspray

[mastina]

Mom

For the record her dying message to me (at least I am assuming it was from her) said that you were town. <3
(A take I very much agree with.)

She wanted my take on Auro today; so far, I think town there. <3

[mastina]

For the record her dying message to me (at least I am assuming it was from her) said that you were town. <3

Oh how interesting.
VOTE: Mastina
She targeted me last night

Well, last night, I was targeted by a mailman. They said they were a town odd-night combined mailman alien, that I was both roleblocked and rolestopped. (They apologized for blocking my actions, which is unfortunate, because I did use an action last night--ironically enough, *I* targeted *you*.) They then said they didn't have much more to say, other than townreading you, thinking I am town, and wanting thoughts on Auro; they gave me a code word to confirm it was from them. They also specified a way beyond the code word to reveal to me.

But I assumed it was from Momrangal doing a gambit, that she lied about being odd-night alien with her really being a jailkeeper and that the message originated from her.

I suppose my assumption could've been wrong, but I very much did receive a message with the above as the contents of it and it at least somewhat checks out since I know for a fact that my action on you failed.

[mastina]

It takes 7 in the 13p bloc to have that bloc vote. I have no idea where moza's idea that this is a delicate situation comes from.

^This pretty much.

I see no reason to not treat the votes in that bloc as basically a Mini Normal on D1.

I know for a fact that mom targeted me last night.

Well I know for a fact that I was roleblocked and I know for a fact that I received a message with the contents I mentioned. I don't know for a fact that it was Momrangal but I assumed messenger-JK = I was targeted by her N1 due to receiving a message and being blocked.

[mastina]

mastina, you were his partner there. what do you think of that?

You mean Gypyx?

His scumgame with me was one of his first games onsite; he has played a lot more since then and I didn't get the best gauge on him the first time anyway.

His play generically looked highly null until the fire against Anya (which looks generically town), but I don't have nearly enough of a meta on him to tell if it means anything.

I'll say that his D1 could be similar to the MBOS game but his D2 doesn't seem very reminiscent of it.

There's a reason he's a big fat null in my readslist tho.

[mastina]

I honestly want to join Mastina on bugspray because there was some stuff that pinged me D1 but not in a way that I felt confident was scum at that time.
VOTE: bugspray

For the record bugspray is my most confident scumread here because of a certain sort of tell. It's not a tell that I really have a name for or a defined definition of it, but if not for a certain restriction I could more or less describe it by naming a Scummer the tell is more or less describing "why this behavior is scum".

[mastina]

Noraa/Tsutsu
Vaxkiller
mozamis

Auro
Xtoxm
Flea the Magician
quiet/Almost50

T3
OutWorldER
lendunistus

tris
Gypyx

VFP
Anya


Randy Savage

bugspray

I think this is a more accurate portrayal of my reads.

Locktown (surprised people are voting mozamis and not engaging me there on why mozamis is up there but mozamis is up there for damn good reason), pretty damn strongly thinking town, vaguely-think-town, lean-town, pretty damn null, scumread, strong scumread.

[mastina]

Locktown (surprised people are voting mozamis and not engaging me there on why mozamis is up there but mozamis is up there for damn good reason)

I haven't started on your posts yet. But I'll bite. What's the reason?

(Don't feel like posting right now but feel like I have to so that means I have to answer this now even tho it'd be better to wait to give a better answer, but.)

Basically--aside from mechanics from D1 in groupspec highly likely to indicate mozamis is town, mozamis has shown a lot of gamesolving and progression in thought that I don't think is likely to come from scum. I can show literally half a dozen examples of a trajectory in stances, from an initial take that was itself reasonable, but then having a reassessment which is even better founded than the original stance, where mozamis is taking time to do research. The initial stances may be half-assable with no research and probably in fact were! But then the followthrough followup is anything but, with a very definitive trail of evidence of time spent to research the stance and opinion.

Is that something scum can do? Yes, but it's in general a fairly strong town indicator.

[mastina]

why is vax so high up for you mastina?

Same combination of setup spec, along with Vax not giving any scum indicators in play. Granted, Vaxkiller's not an easy read, in being a low-hanging fruit regardless of alignment, so there's not really much in the way of town indicators either but lack of scum pings + groupspec = highly likely town.

[mastina]

she litterally *self-votes* just "oh noes me vote has no weight bdtter VOTE: Gypyx" and like, how fucking convinient is that to avoid VCA
and just... tell me what kind of town does That

Btw, I am PRETTY damn sure that this string of posting from Gypyx makes him town.

[mastina]

Mastina, why is Tsutsu town?

I don't remember.

But I want to trust past-me right now even if I can't remember why.

[mastina]

Gypyx
Vaxkiller
mozamis

Auro
Noraa/Tsutsu
Xtoxm
Flea the Magician
quiet/Almost50

T3
OutWorldER

tris

VFP

Anya
lendunistus


Randy Savage

bugspray

More accurate readslist here. Locktown, strongtown, townread, mostly null but lean town, null, mostly null but lean scum, scumread, strong scumread.

[mastina]

(I kinda most want to air out the thoughts on my strong town tier here but most of these reads are reads that I want to expand on, I just don't have the energy to right now. I feel like I can explain in greater detail most of these reads, I'm just...not in a state to do so at least not right now.)

[mastina]

(The fact that I got prodded should be an indicator to my minstate right now--I'm really not up to posting but I don't have a choice because I'd be replaced otherwise. I'm borderline delirious right now, dizzy, lightheaded, eyes zoning out into the distance, and also behind that very very deeply depressed, but I still gotta try to play anyway.)

@mastina
This is my 8th post and have been semi ignoring this game until today. (Sorry everyone) How the hell am I lock town?

Aside from minor setup spec on D1 group distribution, there's also the nature of the posts you made being highly likely to be town.

I think moz is scum, hes going around pointing at every thing, has a long scum list and has alos said every seems town. It just feels like too much.

These are not scum indicators--quite the opposite, they are fairly strong indicators of a slot being town. The very things you're mentioning as a reason to vote mozamis are the reason mozamis is such a strong townread of mine.

@mastina Out of curiosity, do you keeps notes on everyone you play with?

Nope! Everything I do is improvised on the spot from prior recollection of them.

If you're able Mastina, what you thinking on Macho Man gone Missin at the moment?

I don't know who Macho Man is, but if it is Randy Savage: almost certainly scum.

@mastina are you able to articulate your sr on me yet? seems like you just have a tinfoil brainworm read

I'll risk saying that it's my OkaPoka tell. But I don't really have a way to describe what exactly the OkaPoka tell is.

[mastina]

What?? How do you reconcile any "groupspec" with this:

something to understand is that

these groups will be chosen by me

(as well as my team of consultants) to

try to be as

Evil

as possible

. to the best of my ability,

i will organize the groups in a way that disrupts gameplay

, creates

unreasonable power dynamics

and overvalues certain players' votes,

exacerbates personality clashes

, and generates a wave of Pure Nonsense that will influence execution choices. as such, this is a bastard game, however this paragraph is the extent of the bastardness: i will try not to create any obvious alignment information in these assignments (unless it is very funny) and nothing else is fishy i promise - it will be 15:4, normal setup (which you can expect to be not insane), no mod lying, etc. i hope to create a game that you can still theoretically take seriously in spite of it all.

??

With this.

The bolded are what I can work with.

schadd_ has a working understanding of many of the players here.

Distributing them in a disruptive way with unreasonable power dynamics and personality clashes is exactly why I feel that my group on D1 was me and two scum and that the Momrangal mozamis Vaxkiller group was all town. And I'm pretty damn confident in it being mostly or entirely true.

[mastina]

Same combination of setup spec

WHAT setup spec?? Are you saying a group of 3 is unlikely to contain 1 scum in between them?

No, I am saying

that specific

group of three, mozamis+Momrangal+Vaxkiller, does not contain scum.

And that my group of three (Randy Savage + bugspray)

does

--a minimum of one, with a high chance of being two.

[mastina]

Preliminary solve: 3 Scums in mastina/Gypyx/Vax

Well 2/3 of that group are conftown and the third is a really strong townread, so.

[mastina]

I'm trusting Mastina to drop the setupspec at some point and weigh her reads without it, honestly.

My reads aren't dependent on setup spec--mozamis isn't town just because of setup spec; he is town by play very strongly so.
Vaxkiller isn't town just because of setup spec; his content radiates town.
bugspray isn't scum just because of setup spec; he is scum because of the OkaPoka tell I have which is frustratingly hard to describe what it amounts to being.
Randy Savage is the closest I have to a read that's scum off of setup spec but that's due to Randy Savage's content being so sparse. I still think the content is scum anyway but it's the read which is closest to being setup spec.

And literally all of my other reads lack setup spec altogether:

Gypyx

Auro
Noraa/Tsutsu
Xtoxm
Flea the Magician
quiet/Almost50

T3
OutWorldER

tris

VFP

Anya
lendunistus

This is my readslist minus the slots that I setup specc'd on and literally none of these reads, from locktown to lean scum, have so much as one iota of setup spec to them.

[mastina]

Mastina has said time and time again that her group/setup spec is due to her role.

Yes and given what the role is (kinda salty that I was blocked N1 as it'd be much easier to be able to explain this otherwise) I feel it's very strongly so.

[mastina]

dont like how much this game is being talked abt as bastard, i think people are using that as a pass to avoid scumhunting. this isnt a true bastard game, its a normal with one very explicit mechanic.

Yes and it is that specific mechanic that I feel can augment scumhunting especially when combined with roles. The three work in tandem, not against each other. Role, setup spec, and play augment each other to strengthen arguments and work together.

Dismissing one is imo egregious so those saying "this is a bastard game you can't setup spec it" are indeed wrong.

[mastina]

Bugspray hasn;t really stood out beyond what I pointed initially and that they're super into this game, which honestly I'm just assuming means they're not overgamed for once

Guess what the OkaPoka tell ensues?

[mastina]

I'm pretty much onboard with Xtox about Moz at this point and I think that slot is low-hanging fruit being pushed by scum. I don't like Anya here at all and that Moz case feels like scum trying to look high effort.

More or less what I'm thinking, yes.
mozamis town; bugspray scum; Anya not lockscum but a reasonably decent chance of being scum.

[mastina]

Sadly, I think Mastina might be scum this game

I am literally conftown this game and you should know it. You're not so blind as to be unable to read the writing on the wall.

[mastina]

Mastina, can you talk about your familiarity with Momrangal and how likely you'd kill her early if you rolled scum against her?

Momrangal and I have literally not had a chance to play together aside from DBZ--a game where she was scum.

I've zero gauge for her abilities as a town player right now but she very much wouldn't be my top kill priority. She's not someone I've ever had as a N1 nightkill priority, not when I was intimately familiar with her and not now either where fortune conspires to keep us a part. In fact until she 'crumbed her role (I misidentified it as crumbing ascetic), I was planning on targeting her N1. And my iso will even tell you as much as I was very unsubtle about this. As in I explicitly and blatantly said it.

You don't nightkill the player you're intending to target with your role.

(Also I'm conftown here, so. Literally am the opposite of being scum.)

[mastina]

Mastina loves to talk about her reads as town. Her posts here feel a little... non-committal and empty compared to what I've usually seen from town!Mastina. Take a 1-minute skim of her ISO, would you still say there's not much of a difference from the last game you've seen of her?

disagree on that one, she's actually trying to solve what the blocs means alignement-wise, which is very town-motivated imo
and heck, I don't see how she's not discussing reads even

Yes, which is a red flag for Auro--he should bloody well know better than this.

[mastina]

Setup speculation is the most obvious thing scum!Mastina would know to fake.

[citation needed]

I'm pretty damn sure I've never once setup specc'd as scum.

Which given that I've played by now probably literally over a hundred scumgames onsite is a pretty damn impressive statement, but I'm fairly certain it's true.

Setup spec is a hallmark of my towngame, not my scumgame.

[mastina]

VOTE: vfp

And people wonder why I think bugspray is scum.

[mastina]

jailkeeper and doctor?

We also know there's an odd-night alien as they targeted me N1.

[mastina]

why would mom even think you're at risk of getting NK'd

I mean.

To be fair.

I, indirectly, told her to target Tsutsu rather than me.

I MEANT it as a 'crumb of "I am going to target Tsutsu tonight", but it's fully possible Momrangal took it to heart and decided to target Tsutsu specifically because I told her to.

[mastina]

randy/bug/lend
^ two wolves and one town that cant be bothered to play

Pretty much yeah.

[mastina]

im anyway skeptical that town!you hasn't managed to locktown me based on play by this point in the game

For the record this is something I need to do; I feel like I do need to locktown you so apologies that you weren't in the locktown tier of my readslist already.

And yes, I am thinking similar RE: Auro. He's not locktowning players he should; quite the opposite, he's calling them sus. Plus, there's a certain ~something~ that's looking a little...not there. Hard to say exactly what but it feels something is missing from a town-Auro.

[mastina]

I'm hoping shes OK, honestly.

I'm very much not, but it should be pretty bloody obvious that I'm trying my damnedest to do everything I can in spite of being in such a bad headspace--the people who played with me in both recently ended mini themes should be able to tell as much; my level of effort here is pretty much identical to there.

And my level of effort in all three games is less than it should be--but that's due to my state of being right now; I am still trying in spite of said bad state of being.

My iso speaks for itself in this regard and if people compared it to my iso in both of those recent mini themes my isos there speak similarly: not giving nearly as much effort as I should, but still trying and giving as much as I can.

Here I have given reads and as many reasons as I can, so it's pretty damn obvious that I'm not scum.

[mastina]

If mastinas town, they usually get NK'd.

I can guarantee scum will kill me before endgame because when I say I'm conftown that's not hyperbole.

[mastina]

Mastina came right after the hammer ...

I came after I woke up and had a shower.

I woke up at like 2:15 and took like an hour-long shower.

I responded to a (v personal) PM first upon logging in because due to the nature of that (very personal from someone who I'm not going to name), it was instantly my top priority.

But this game was pretty high up there too and I came to it soon after.

If people wanna hammer a slot before I get the chance to chime in, they've nobody to blame but themselves. You literally had the mod announce the prod on me so if you were paying attention to that you'd KNOW that I needed to show up to produce content.

[mastina]

auro is lockscum

Honestly, quite possibly.

I give a lot of leeway and benefit of the doubt.

But the diagnosis is not good right now.

[mastina]

I was dead certain she was scum in animal upick and she was in fact, a town pr.

And guess what I am this game?

I have been pretty explicit that I am a town PR.

[mastina]

I'm borderline delirious right now, dizzy, lightheaded, eyes zoning out into the distance, and also behind that very very deeply depressed, but I still gotta try to play anyway

Just to say if you ever want or need to talk my pms and discord are open to you <3

<3

[mastina]

Gypyx
Vaxkiller
mozamis
Xtoxm

Noraa/Tsutsu
T3
Flea the Magician
quiet/Almost50

OutWorldER

tris

Anya
lendunistus
Auro


Randy Savage

bugspray

For the record, this readslist doesn't take into account VFP's alignment one way or another. I'm pretty sure that some slots move up or down depending on VFP-town or VFP-scum but I'm too delirious right now and on a time crunch to do the work to separate the two so this as a generic readslist will have to do.

[mastina]

why am i scum?

GROUP 2

not voting (3):

mastina, bugspray, Randy Savage

For the record:
schadd would expect me to townbloc with the players in my voting block. (I've VERY good reason to believe this to be the case.)

He tried to make things as Evil as possible, per his word.

If he knows my personality and thus knows that I would naturally be inclined to townbloc with my group...it then follows, he inverted it, making the group be scum with the expectation that I would townbeard by townblocking with scum.

Therefore, bugspray and Randy Savage are both scum.

VOTE: bugspray

I honestly want to join Mastina on bugspray because there was some stuff that pinged me D1 but not in a way that I felt confident was scum at that time.
VOTE: bugspray

For the record bugspray is my most confident scumread here because of a certain sort of tell. It's not a tell that I really have a name for or a defined definition of it, but if not for a certain restriction I could more or less describe it by naming a Scummer the tell is more or less describing "why this behavior is scum".

@mastina are you able to articulate your sr on me yet? seems like you just have a tinfoil brainworm read

I'll risk saying that it's my OkaPoka tell. But I don't really have a way to describe what exactly the OkaPoka tell is.

Bugspray hasn;t really stood out beyond what I pointed initially and that they're super into this game, which honestly I'm just assuming means they're not overgamed for once

Guess what the OkaPoka tell ensues?

VOTE: vfp

And people wonder why I think bugspray is scum.

[mastina]

auro is lockscum

could be why Xtotm died. Fits.

It's definitely possible.

I think this locks Mastina as a mason imho.

I mean it definitely fits with you being scum who think Xtoxm+mastina = masons as that's something you've a strong inclination towards hunting for, but that doesn't do your slot many favors.

(You're a very high chance of being scum slot, but not the highest chance of being scum; I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and some leeway here.)

Anyone town in group 2 PLEAS BE CAREFUL HOW YOU VOTE/DONT VOTE. Potentially most scum in group two, plus Len could quick hammer. I'm assuming most/all my group are town.

I mean:

GROUP 1

not voting (7):

Vaxkiller, OutWorldER, Flea the Magician, Tsutsu, mozamis, tris, Anya

GROUP 2

not voting (7):

mastina, Almost50, bugspray, MathBlade, T3, Auro, Gypyx

GROUP 3

not voting (1):

lendunistus

My group has bugspray (almost certainly scum), Auro (decent chance of being scum), MathBlade (reasonable chance of being scum), and two names that while I don't think they're scum, could potentially be scum even if I don't currently think they are (Almost50, T3). Literally the only name I trust to be town is Gypyx in the group, so you're not wrong.

That being said:

My theory was that all prs are mailmen.

I think this makes T3 town and I can see exactly why T3 would have that theory (it's not an unreasonable one to have). It was wrong, but the belief in it being right I think makes T3 town here.

Gypyx
Vaxkiller
mozamis

Noraa/Tsutsu
T3

Flea the Magician
quiet/Almost50

OutWorldER

tris

Anya

lendunistus

Auro

Randy Savage/MathBlade

bugspray

As a readslist, this is more or less the distribution which feels correct. And given it, compared to the above: IF there's scum in group 1 it would be Anya but it is highly likely that group 1 is, indeed, mostly or entirely town here.

VOTE: bugspray

[mastina]

It’s likely with the mason claim Mom visited Mastina and blocked her

No, I was blocked by an odd-night Alien who was also a Messenger. They are not Momrangal; I know this for a fact now. So this game had Momrangal as a messenger-jailkeeper and a separate player who is an oddnight-messenger-alien.

At the start of D2 I made the obvious, but wrong, conclusion that Momrangal as the just-flipped messenger-jailkeeper had targeted me N1 and just lied about her role as a gambit, because when Momrangal flipped messenger-jailkeeper after I was targeted by a messenger claiming to be an odd-night alien, it felt like a pretty reasonable conclusion to make.

However, later developments proved this initial assumption of mine, reasonable as it was, to be a wrong one; Momrangal almost certainly targeted Noraa/Tsutsu, and I was definitely targeted by a player that is not Momrangal, and that player has the role of oddnight combined messenger-alien. I know for a fact it was not Momrangal gambiting now, but I didn't at D2's daystart.

[mastina]

Mastina can you please explain?

Can? Yes.
Will? No.

I have a visiting power; I am conftown; I will say no more than that and if scum wanna kill me N3 and run the risk of it failing due to the oddnight alien that's their prerogative.

(Also, I forgot to do this before, meant to do this in my first post of the day, I am rather bad at it, BUT: I am giving you similar leeway to Gypyx's game, as in, I was scumreading your predecessor and am giving you some amount of space. But this game you definitely aren't feeling as immediately town to me as you did that game, will say that.)

[mastina]

You said you are a mason. Is this correct? Yes or No.

This is not a question that I see any protown reason to answer at this time.

You said you targeted someone with a power. Is this correct? Yes or No.

Yes, but I know for a fact that N1, I was roleblocked. Given that I know I was roleblocked N1 and that I received a message from someone saying they're an odd-night Alien who targeted me N1, and that Aliens roleblock their target, this checks out.

You said you received a letter. Is this correct? If so yes or no and what did it contain and who from?

I did receive a letter N1. I have stated the contents of the letter. It was NOT from Momrangal; I don't see reason to specify further, given that the sender of the message is, explicitly, a very strong power role whose claim I can at least half-verify. (They claimed to target me with an action that blocks me, I was blocked N1, so at the very least the roleblocking half of the oddnight alien claim is confirmed.)

And lastly have you watched any you tube or musicals recently?

No, I have not.

[mastina]

I think you or this alien are scum due to the one too many PRs problem.

I don't.

This is a Large Normal, reviewed by Isis.

With 19 players and 4 scum, that's 15 town. ~6-8 TPRs is what I'd expect.

Quote me where you said what they said again please Mastina.

They said they were a town odd-night combined mailman alien, that I was both roleblocked and rolestopped. (They apologized for blocking my actions, which is unfortunate, because I did use an action last night--ironically enough, *I* targeted *you*.) They then said they didn't have much more to say, other than townreading you, thinking I am town, and wanting thoughts on Auro; they gave me a code word to confirm it was from them. They also specified a way beyond the code word to reveal to me.

[mastina]

How exactly did Mastina both be blocked and target tsu with an action?

Sure it does. I targeted Tsutsu with a night action--it was roleblocked. Meaning the night action didn't succeed. But that doesn't mean I didn't submit the night action; I still did. It just didn't go through because it was roleblocked.

[mastina]

Alright... I really don't see Anya playing like this as town.

Eh, I do, but I understand the policy-elimination there. I'm not going to hard-defend Anya as Anya was never north of null prior to now (I actually think the claim shenanigans are indicative of town), but I don't think Anya flips scum. I get the basically mandatory need for an Anya elimination; "Lim All Liars" has been a site policy since before I joined for damn good reason, and this sort of play should not be allowed to scathe by because it is the type of play that we should punish, with eliminations, to show that it is not okay to do.

But while it is the type of play to policy-eliminate because there's a chance it comes from scum (even if I don't think Anya is scum) and was incredibly anti-town and worthy of elimination, I personally won't vote there, because I prefer to vote scum.

And given that I'm voting bugspray and have been the entire game, I feel pretty damn good about me voting scum.

[mastina]

i swear i need to get a maths degree in set theory to understand half these posts
i was gonna reread the theory and then talk about why it's right but last night some bullshit and i got distracted and now there's like five pages?

And people wonder why I'm voting bugspray.

[mastina]

The other part that worries me is let’s assume Mastina is Mason + PR since she said she sent out some targeting action.

I am indeed conftown with a targeting action.

Elaborating beyond that is never protown here.

[mastina]

My top 4 are lend, bugspray, Anya, Auro.

Replace Anya with...well, not quite sure who, but someone else, and you get where I'm at, too.

I'm willing to buy that MathBlade's town here since PR-wise we have room for him to be town without it overloading the town PRs here and the claim did seem highly town under the circumstances. I am pretty damn sure bugspray is scum here. Auro could be town but his play by and large says otherwise. lend looks like scum through and through, tho I'm not as sure on him as I am on bugspray.

The fourth might be one of {tris, Almost50}, although I admit that's more a combination of setup spec than a read.

[mastina]

Didn't Mastina say she'd be confirmable or something to that effect?

Correct. I am literally conftown. Not metaphorically--literally. As in my role is one that is on the list of Normal roles that

cannot

be scum; it is listed as a Town-only role.

Claiming further than that is antitown. My word should be enough given that I've never lied about having this type of role before.

[mastina]

By the way, could people please explain their reads on me?

Well basically, I feel like you are coming from a place of genuine game solving. I don't really have any meta on you or much in the way of substantial evidence, but you look and feel town. In particular, your theory yesterday, while wrong, felt like EXACTLY the type of theory I would make as town, to the point where yesterday when you said you had a theory, I knew EXACTLY what your theory was! And that theory is one that I struggle to see coming from scum, especially with such conviction.

So you're a pretty damn good townread, but not a locktown read.

[mastina]

G = scum yeah? You were scum with G before. This should be easy for you?

It is easy for me, incredibly so in fact: Gypyx is so town this game that he might as well be a mason.

[mastina]

I think your reads suck imho. Probably why you’re not dead.

I mean my reads seem pretty fine thusfar. I was townreading Momrangal, Xtoxm, and VFP; I feel pretty damn confident in Gypyx being town and fairly good about mozamis and Vaxkiller being town, too. T3 and Tsutsu, while not conftown, do have fairly strong reason to be town imo.

And if Anya flips town like I think, that'll be another read I was right on.

And if you're town like I currently believe, that leaves the pool of 4 scum as being:
{Flea, Almost50, tris, Outworlder, lendunidis, Auro, bugspray}.

And in that group I'm pretty damn sure this is Flea as town.

Which means 4 scum in {Almost50, tris, Outworlder, lendunidis, Auro, bugspray}.

6 names for 4 scum; that's a pretty damn good POE imo.

So I think my reads are just fine.

[mastina]

Gypyx
Randy Savage/MathBlade
Vaxkiller
mozamis

T3
Noraa/Tsutsu
Flea the Magician

quiet/Almost50
OutWorldER

tris

lendunistus

Auro

bugspray

Updated readslist. (Anya deliberately removed because Anya should be a policy-elimination today due to the chance she's scum even though I don't think she is.)

[mastina]

I still find it hard to understand why a player of your calibre and experience basically said nothing about the whole Anya/Math tihng and left your vote doing nothing on Bugspray, and not pushing Bugspray at all.

In Anya v MathBlade, there was not much to say: MathBlade's play made him almost certainly town from it. Anya's play was also probably town, but due to the nature of the play, demanded a policy-elimination. I said both of these things yesterday and there was nothing more that needed to be said on the subject. I didn't push for a bugspray elimination yesterday because there wasn't much point--Anya was a policy elimination that I agreed with eliminating on policy alone. I thought her town, but there was a chance the play was scum and even if not, it is up to us as a community to punish the type of play Anya made to ensure scum never DO try it and hide behind the "town do this so I did it too" excuse, and the only punishment we can inflict is an elimination, to help teach players that that sort of play is not acceptable for good reason. The elimination was 100% going to be Anya yesterday. I couldn't push against it especially not when I agreed with the policy behind it.

However just because the elimination was guaranteed to be Anya doesn't mean that I can't continue to point out why bugspray is opportunistic-as-fuck scum who is coasting by.

I also have, without fail, voted him the entirety of the game. I've cast a grand total of one non-bugspray vote, on D1, and I immediately revoted bugspray less than 5 minutes later, so effectively, my vote has been on him the entire game, and will continue to be there until he flips, because bugspray is the BBMolla of this game. (Gypyx and MathBlade will get the reference. tris might, too.)

VOTE: bugspray.

<3 Mastina

<3 MathBlade <3

I think hybrid a50’s and Mastina’s reads from yesterday and this should be good.

The thought did cross my mind, but the only read of his I'm comfortable instantly and immediately sheeping without a deep delve into further nuances of the game is bugspray as scum. Further than that would require more review and thought.

Very frustrating NK.

Says the person who very likely was the one who ordered it.

I'm a combined _____ + Rolecop.

This claim is probably real.

It is also probably scum.

Btw Auro scum stock through the roof atm.

Explicitly so, yes.

it's only n3

That makes more sense balance wise
*thinks*

I agree.
REGARDLESS OF TRIS'S ALIGNMENT, I am pretty sure this makes T3 town. Scum wouldn't fake a clear on scum in this contrived, convoluted way. And if town then the clear is probably a legit clear.

I can see a N3 messenger cop coexisting with a 2x tracker fairly easily here, and I believe the claim is more likely to come from town than from scum, even if it was slightly botched. (Also, tris didn't need to reveal herself to T3 if scum with the messenger role but did so anyway.)

With this in mind, this is where I'm at for an initial D4 readslist:
Gypyx
Randy Savage/MathBlade
T3
tris

Vaxkiller
mozamis

Noraa/Tsutsu
Flea the Magician


OutWorldER


lendunistus

Auro

bugspray

Role-wise basically conftown; setup mech-spec townreads; play-wise strong townreads; null; lean scum; scumread; very very very strongly scumread to the point of being as scum as scum can be without a cop guilty. (As in the only way bugspray could be more scum to me is with a cop guilty.)

[mastina]

Unopposed to mass-claim.

Given that I'm pretty sure the town knows more than the scum do right now, I however am opposed to the massclaim.

Mastina is also someone likely to have killed all of {Momrangal, A50, Xtoxm}

The thing is, while in theory I would, in practice those three are not high priorities for me in this game. They are, however, high priorities for

you

. Who here other than you would have the experience with all three and think all three are nightkill-worthy? You and I are literally the only two players who have that sort of repertoire with them as far as I know, and the difference between you and me is that while I can fairly definitively show why I wouldn't have them as a nightkill if I were scum and I can prove that I am conftown, you while I'm sure you can think of excuses for why you wouldn't nightkill them, actually would nightkill them and are not conftown.

[mastina]

Btw if you're having issues sheeping me on bugspray/Auro/lendunidis,

my feeling on moz at this point, while he's had bad takes, i cant not townread the effort to some degree. weak town more likely than scum. scum really doesnt have a need to tryhard in this lobby.

i find myself forced to give town credit to behavior like T3's which, although i feel is super easy to fake as scum, its ~something~ and it differentiates from a whole glob of players that have given me literal zero townpings.

VOTE: Vax

disappointing contribution from you today. i offered you agency through my vote and you made no effort to talk to me. fos auro. im not able to build/push a new wagon at this time, so i'll join the one i feel moist likely to flip scum.

VOTE: bugspray

still would prefer bug, i think.

I disagree on our Moz read, hes the biggest shover of the whole "large games are bastard!" thing.

i mean, i could be. he's at least presenting as trying to solve, though. if moz is scum, there's a bunch of town that needs to step up and show us. i did a little meta looking at moz, in deciding where to vote, and concluded he likely has a slight trend of posting more as town than scum, but he does do the spamming thing regardless of align.

Bugspray hasn;t really stood out beyond what I pointed initially and that they're super into this game, which honestly I'm just assuming means they're not overgamed for once

players that blend into the background are often scum IME :p

randy/bug/lend
^ two wolves and one town that cant be bothered to play

Xtoxm, who do you have strong townreads on, and why?

i'm not giving you a road map of night kills
fuck off scum

auro is lockscum

Pretend you're sheeping Xtoxm instead as those three were his main suspects.

You can also pretend to be sheeping Almost50, albeit less so:

Second assumption was: G1 on D2 (of 13 slots) was composed as a 13 players Normal setup. i.e. 10:3. This meant only 1 Scum on Auro/tris/Anya/OutWolrdER
1 Scum in lend/Out,

with lend esyablished as Town

(and flowtrap flipping Town) = Out is SCUM.
mastina/

bugs

/Randy

containing 1 Scum

, and

bugs

was the one voting flow trap at the end of D1. Granted that didn't even count, but he was also voting momrangel before, so

I picked him for the Scum in that group

. That makes mastina/Randy Town AND Moz as well (as bugs is tunneling Moz iirc). Moz Town makes Vax Scum.

Scum in:

Actually it's bugs/T3/Vax/OutWorldER, but thanks for considering me.

Almost50 can't be entirely right, here, but it's quite possible he was in the right area--he thought bugspray was scum, and other candidates were {Vaxkiller, OutWorlder, Auro, lendunidis} albeit him assuming lendunidis was town and also assuming Auro is town. (Like I said, Almost50 can't be entirely right so his process couldn't be perfectly on-point. Especially with a T3 cop inno result.)

[mastina]

bugspray uses they/them

I knew that, I don't know why I typed he/him there to refer to them. (I legit don't know how that happened.)

[mastina]

MOD: due to the site downtime and the fact that tomorrow is a holiday (Easter), can we get a deadline extension to compensate for the lost weekend and leniency in prod timers?

Seems prudent, because I know I at the very least can't play until Monday--I was planning on playing today but the site downtime fucked that over, soooooo.

[mastina]

I think you townread Moz. Can you help me with why?

Aside from setup groupspec on the {mozamis, Momrangal, Vaxkiller} group being all town, there is the rather more notable effect of mozamis's contributions to this game. Prior to your replace-in, mozamis was actually the slot I would say was giving the most effort to this game, efforting the most. Effort != alignment, but the nature of the effort makes it incredibly likely to be from town. I could see a clear trajectory in game solving, basically throwing mud at the wall to see what sticks and then latching onto it, but also with reassessments and reevaluations and "herpderp that was stupid of me" moments present that all resonate with me as being highly likely to be from a town player.

VOTE: Auro
@Mastina can we do where we agree on Auro?

Sure, I'll get caught up and check the votes when caught up to see about it.

[mastina]

Just noting to search for "confirmable" in Mastina's completed games to check if she's ever used that to coast to endgame as scum before.

I'll save you the time; I don't like as scum, and thus, have never done so as scum before.

I'm a Doctor+Rolecop.

night 1: Momrangal was a

town combined jailkeeper mailman

day 2: VFP was a

town simple doctor

On the one hand, with a lack of a vig, I don't see why scum would need a combined doctor-rolecop or why scum would fakeclaim it, but on the other hand:

A rolecop makes a ton of sense here more as a scum role than a town role, and between the flipped roles and knowing there is an odd-night alien (who admittedly could be scum in theory but if I were forced to choose between them and Auro being scum I'd say Auro was the scum every single time), this is an incredibly suspicious claim.

I find it odd a top townread and a scumread have the same read list. What do you think Mastina?

I don't--Auro has consistently avoided voting bugspray in spite of listing bugspray as a suspicion. Distancing without bussing is a thing.

I'd be far more inclined to think Auro was town if his suspicion on bugspray was backed by a history of voting the bugspray slot. Instead it's the opposite; he's literally gone "I suspect X Y and bugspray" and then voted either X or Y the entire game. That was actually one of the main contributing factors to me thinking he's a bugspray scumbuddy in fact.

Spoiler: To wit,

This leaves the relatively large pool of {Ledunistus, Outworlder, Bugspray, Tris, Randy Savage, Vaxkiller, Anya}.
If there's a vig just shoot Randy. Tomorrow's lim I think I'll prefer {Bugspray, Ledunistus, Anya} as lim candidates tomorrow.

He was voting Vaxkiller at the time.

{Ledunistus, Outworlder, Bugspray, Tris(?), Vaxkiller}

Instead of bugspray he votes Vaxkiller.

In fact he's never voted bugspray; he's voted the likes of flow trap, Anya, Tsutsu, and more, all the while listing bugspray as a suspect but never voting bugspray.

[mastina]

The odd night alien didn’t block me and didn’t block Mastina.

Which is reason for them to be town, not for them to be scum.

I have been rather vocal about having a visiting role; you still had a shot left on your track; visiting either of us while protecting us would've blocked those roles.

I got a message along with the alien block.

In fact a target of Auro makes perfect sense.
IF Auro is town, then in spite of all the suspicion on him, he's a good nightkill based on his skills as a player, and he fits the modus operandi of the scum kills, fitting the pattern of Momrangal N1 and Xtoxm N2 (and for that matter Almost50 N3 although obviously the alien wouldn't have that N3).

IF Auro is scum, then he is a good block, both due to the chance of being the one performing the nightkill AND due to him potentially being a rather notable scum PR. (Which if he is a rolecop he probably is.)

Night action target selection-wise, I'm far more confident in the alien being town in their choices than Auro, since Auro's targets are rather sus.

[mastina]

Mastina, thoughts?

Enchant is a poor replacement as they seem to be ESL and a newbie to boot replacing into a game with a reasonably complex mechanic and are probably over their head and may or may not have gotten all of their role information from schadd--all indicators that reaffirm my townread on the slot, because if Enchant were scum, the needed documents would be in the scum PT recorded there and Enchant would have three scumbuddies capable of informing Enchant about things which have happened.

Ergo, Enchant is locktown from being a replacement that has no knowledge, whereas if Enchant were scum Enchant would have access to that knowledge.

[mastina]

Considering my role there's no way all of those claims are town.

Yeah, sorry, MathBlade, but I'm not voting Auro right now; I'm never leaving my vote off of bugspray until they hardclaim and even then when it's inevitably a scum fakeclaim I am yeeting them for it.

[mastina]

Anyone else read the last few pages and feel like there's some vague resistance to Vaxkiller, with people trying to rush a Bugspray lim?

Actually I got the exact opposite impression: there's been resistance to a bugspray elimination the whole. damn. game. and people have been trying, largely successfully, to rush through other eliminations. flow trap D1. VFX D2. Anya D3. And now Vaxkiller D4.

[mastina]

Mastina, are you confirmable without a rolecop?

Yes, tho a rolecop wouldn't do any harm.

[mastina]

n1: i target momrangel and get that she can communicate at night
n2: i target anya and get a can not communicate at night
n3: i target auro and get a can not communicate at night

Apart from you letting us eliminate someone who by your role would be conftown, there's also the fact that you're claiming a result on someone that was ALIEN-protected.
As in rolestopped.
As in all actions targeting them fail.

So yeah bugspray's scum here.

The main thing I have with this is if it's a real claim, do scum actually have a rolecop on top of it? That seems a little excessive as the traffic analyst does what the rolecop should, soooo,
IF bugspray's role is real: there's at least an 80% chance that, underwhelming lackluster play and refusal to bus be damned, Auro is town.

But feels like something to tackle after bugspray's scumflip.

[mastina]

flea please just fucking vote me already so it doesnt look like a bus

Not that fae needed it but thanks for making Flea go from town to conftown with this.

(Y'all are dumb if you think this is scum legitimately scumslipping their scumbuddy here. The options are either scum trying to spew town as scum or scum trying to spew scum as town by making us think that they are scum trying to spew town as scum. I vastly favor the "scum trying to spew town as scum" option here because Flea looks pretty damn town this game.)

[mastina]

GROUP 1

not voting (3):

Vaxkiller,

Flea the Magician

,

Enchant

GROUP 2

not voting (3):

lendunistus,

Umlaut, T3

GROUP 3

not voting (2):

OutWorldER,

mastina

GROUP 4

not voting (2):

MathBlade

,

mozamis

GROUP 5

not voting (1):

Auro

Green = conftown to me; blue = not conftown but I strongly think to be town.

I'm reasonably sure that scum have an even-night roleblocker btw since I'm pretty sure I was targeted by a roleblocker both on N2 and N4--which, in contrast to the alien (which is odd-night), did not give a message to me.

If I am right, the roleblocker could only be one of {Vax, Flea, lendunistus, Outworlder, mozamis}, because Auro is almost certainly truthfully claiming to be a rolecop.

With bugspray flipping goon, Auro is almost definitely scum here.
lendunistus is also basically confscum to me.
If both of these are true, that leaves 1 scum in {Vaxkiller, Outworlder} + {mozamis, Flea}. The latter group I townread; the former group I no longer do.

VOTE: lendunistus.
lendunitus > Auro >> Outworlder > Vaxkiller >>>> mozamis >>> Flea imo.

[mastina]

GROUP 1

not voting (8):

Xtoxm, quiet/Almost50, Noraa/TsuTsu/Umlaut

, Auro,

Gypyx/Enchant, tris, Anya, VFP

GROUP 2

not voting (3):

mastina

,

bugspray

,

Randy Savage/MathBlade

GROUP 3

not voting (3):

Vaxkiller,

Momrangal

,

mozamis

GROUP 4

not voting (3):

OutWorldER, lendunistus,

flow trap

GROUP 5

not voting (1):

Flea the Magician

GROUP 6

not voting (1):

T3

The D1 distribution. In group 1, there is only one player not conftown at this point: Auro. This makes him stick out like a sore thumb. Either the group was all town or Auro is scum.
I believe that the individual voters are both town here.
I'm not sure if there's two scum in group 4 or one scum in group 4 and one scum in group 3, but I very much don't think that group 4 was all town; there's a minimum of one scum in {lendunistus, Outworlder}.

GROUP 1

not voting (13):

Xtoxm

, Vaxkiller,

mastina, Almost50

,

bugspray

,

Flea the Magician

, lendunistus,

Tsutsu/Umlaut, Randy Savage/MathBlade, T3, Gypyx/Enchant

,

mozamis

,

VFP

GROUP 2

not voting (2):

Auro,

tris

GROUP 3

not voting (1):

Anya

GROUP 4

not voting (1):

OutWorldER

Here the distribution is either 2 scum in the big group with 2 scum out (both Auro and Outworlder are scum), or the distribution is 3 scum in the big group with 1 scum out (one scum in {Auro, Outworlder}, with both Vaxkiller and lendunistus being scum).

Crossreferencing with D1, the latter is more likely because of the Outworlder+lendun grouping on D1 but the former isn't impossible. (Basically it comes down to: do you think Vaxkiller is scum or Outworlder is scum, with Auro and lendun being scum regardless.)

GROUP 1

not voting (7):

Vaxkiller, OutWorldER,

Flea the Magician

,

Tsutsu/Umlaut

,

mozamis

,

tris, Anya

GROUP 2

not voting (7):

mastina, Almost50

,

bugspray

,

MathBlade, T3

, Auro,

Gypyx/Enchant

GROUP 3

not voting (1):

lendunistus

Here you have a guarantee of one scum in Vax/Outworlder yet again, with a theoretical, but doubtful, chance for both to be scum. (Both being scum means one of Auro/lendun is town when I think both are likely to be scum.)

GROUP 1

not voting (6):

OutWorldER,

Tsutsu/Umlaut, MathBlade, T3

, Auro,

mozamis

GROUP 2

not voting (5):

mastina

,

bugspray

,

Flea the Magician

, lendunistus,

Gypyx/Enchant

GROUP 3

not voting (2):

Vaxkiller,

tris

Here, there's a guarantee of one scum in {Outworlder, Auro} with a high chance of lendun being scum regardless and at least a reasonable chance of Vaxkiller being scum.

GROUP 1

not voting (3):

Vaxkiller,

Flea the Magician

,

Enchant

GROUP 2

not voting (3):

lendunistus,

Umlaut, T3

GROUP 3

not voting (2):

OutWorldER,

mastina

GROUP 4

not voting (2):

MathBlade

,

mozamis

GROUP 5

not voting (1):

Auro

Which brings us to this.

Imo from this, I actually think lendun > Auro > Vaxkiller from the overall distribution from day to day.

[mastina]

I kinda wanna do Auro mastina. We agree there I did bugspray yesterday you do Auro with me?
VOTE: Auro

Sure. If I'm right that there's a scum even night roleblocker we don't need to 'lim the scum rb today anyway. (If the scum roleblocker is every night, then they could block the vig shot but nobody has claimed to be blocked N1 or N3 outside of those visited by the alien messenger.)
VOTE: Auro

[mastina]

Actually wait 4 the Joat. Lmao point applies though.

Actually, there's five claimed protective roles:
The JOAT's doctor.
The flipped Simple Doctor (notably could not protect PRs tho).
The flipped Messenger-Jailkeeper.
The half-proven (roleblock half definitely proven) odd-night Alien-Messenger.
And Auro's every-night unlimited Combined Doctor+Rolecop.

One of these claims is not like the others imo.
(Jailkeeper has a downside to the protect. Simple Doctor can't protect PRs. JOAT's doctor is one-shot. Alien both has a downside to the protect and is odd-night. What's the downside to an ungated Doctor+Rolecop?)

[mastina]

I have to ask if we really know whether the 'Alien' Mailman is even town?

It's possible for the role to be scum, sure. It fits as a strong scum role to shut down town roles, but not consistently, while allowing to plausibly pass as a town role and potentially serve to inform the scum of the nature of a large number of the town roles (that there's lots of messenging roles).

The key word here being 'possible'--NOT probable. I wouldn't even call it plausible. It is theoretically a role that COULD be scum. But setup comp wise, it doesn't make nearly as much sense as being a scum role; it makes boatloads more sense as being a town role. It's the type of role that, while theoretically possible as scum, is in practice almost assuredly town.

That, aside from the usage of the role looking highly highly highly town. The usage of the role has been fairly reasonable and imo immensely protown. Obviously, scum could use it in a way meant to look town (it wouldn't be a role that'd plausibly pass as a town role if the usage of it wasn't plausibly town, after all), but when you combine setup spec with usage and simple rules of probability vs. possibility, it is almost assuredly a town role.

Which is to say, no, it's not a 100% town role, but it IS a like...95-99% town role. As in, a 1-5% chance it COULD be scum, but overwhelmingly is just far far far more likely to be town.

[mastina]

{Vax, Umlaut, Mathblade}?

Umlaut's literally conftown and MathBlade while not conftown is very very very VERY likely to be town because if MathBlade were scum I don't think we'd have had a nightkill on Almost50 N3.

[mastina]

Mastina's alive somehow?

Well I am literally conftown and also the alien protected me last night so bit hard to kill me.

I'm a bit miffed at Auro tho. Literally the entire reason we were yeeting him is because an UNGATED combined doctor-rolecop was too strong to be town. If he had truthfully claimed he was X-shot, not even disclosing the number of shots, that would've singlehandedly put at least a pause to his elimination. Like, legit, half the suspicion on his slot was entirely due to an ungated doctor-rolecop being too strong; a 3x doctor-rolecop is very much not too strong to be town.

Anyway:
VOTE: lendunistus
I'll admit that it's at least somewhat worrying that T3 isn't dead and we have no second dead body but I believe by setup spec that it's possible all the town PRs are actually town. As in, T3 as town, the alien as town, me as town, with us having 7 PRs that are all town. T3 is imo the least town of the TPRs but is still town. I can probably explain this but not sure if I should or not.

As long as we believe T3 to be town (and that is, per above, an assumption I am safe with making), Umlaut, the cop clear from T3, is also town.

Enchant was hard, HARD spewed as town by the bugspray elimination, not to mention general play.
Flea was soft spewed as town by the bugspray elimination, not to mention general play.

As long as that's the case.

We're left with {Vaxkiller, Outworlder, mozamis, lendunistus} as being 3 scum in 4 names.

My preference is lendunistus > Outworlder = Vaxkiller > mozamis >>> Flea

>

T3 >>>>>>>> Umlaut > Enchant.
(Why is Umlaut there? Because even if T3 were scum, I don't think that T3 fakes an inno on a scumbuddy especially since the slot was town by play.)

[mastina]

I lied about my role becuase I wanted scum to waste their rolrblick. I'm actually a dayvig but the target dies at the end of the day along with the flip, and I can't be roleblocked.

Oh nevermind T3's just scum here.

VOTE: T3

[mastina]

You know what I'll stop lying. I hardclaim n3 and n4 cop mailman

Okay back to believing this.

VOTE: lendunistus.

This I actually do believe. Because one of my issues with the original JOAT claim was two instances of a cop on a JOAT. (JOAT's don't have duplicate powers in Normals. They theoretically CAN. They just don't. So it wasn't impossible to be town, it just was something I took issue with.)

This also solves the too many protectives issue.

And the town being OP issue.

It's a role that actually fits well into the setup, so.

Concerns about T3 are gone now.

lendunistus > Outworlder = Vaxkiller > mozamis >>> Flea >>>>>>>>> T3 = Umlaut = Enchant.

[mastina]

Urgh not gonna lie, really don't feel like posting right now, just...kinda both miserable physically and mentally.

Thankfully I don't think there's much to say here.

I could effort to try and put detail behind the solve, but honestly right or wrong if people are following me on my solve I don't have it in me, especially in my current state.

[mastina]

Today should be Outworlder or Vax imo and I'm fine with either.
VOTE: Outworlder

[mastina]

I'll

Hard Claim: Lends' Neighbourino.

Yup that's good enough to conftown Flea for me.

Scum-scum neighborhoods aren't a thing in Normals. They are something that are technically not against the rules, but no Normal reviewer is going to actually pass that as a setup pretty much.

This is a bit of an oversimplification, but game's on autowin imo.

Flea conftown by role; Enchant conftown; Umlaut conftown by role; me conftown by role; T3 fairly town by role.

So that's 2 scum in {Outworlder, Vaxkiller, mozamis}.

With 8 alive, that's an autowin.

[mastina]

Was this setup actually reviewed by a Normal reviewer though?

Yes--by Isis. And schadd_ is, himself, a fairly prominent Normal reviewer.

I realize that schadd_ likes neighborhoods and that Isis is one of the proponents for less townsided setups overall. But I don't believe either makes a pure scum neighborhood, even if it is something technically allowed by the rules. And I can say that most Normal reviewers would pretty strongly resist the idea of a pure scum neighborhood. They're something that, while allowed, when not given an obvious mechanical justification (scum lack daytalk but the neighborhood has daytalk, scum have a traitor and the neighborhood is scum-traitor, multiball with two different scum), basically fall outside of the realm of "reasonable expectation" for a Normal.

Something that is technically allowed as to prevent a neighborhood with one scum flipping in it conftowning the surviving member, but which is not a Fun mechanic, not a mechanic that is reasonably expected, not a mechanic that has a point to it (it does nothing to the setup, adding nothing to it, not increasing the scum's power, etc.), and between these factors, it's not something you're likely to see.

Or if you WERE to see it...not from schadd_ when reviewed by Isis.

Also even if I were wrong about my read on the personality of the designer/reviewer and they

would

make it.
Even if I were wrong about my read on the setup in that in spite of it not fitting, the mods

could

do it.

Flea's pretty damn town by play anyway.

Flea was my strongest, non-mechanical, townread even without this knowledge.
So the knowledge only augments the already existing read. (Kinda similar to T3 in that regard. T3's not just town from the roleclaim, T3 was town from play. And similar to you, too. Your slot was already one of my strongest townreads; being literally cop cleared only increases the townread.)

[mastina]

Also on a side note:
We had a no-kill last night.
We don't really have any roles that I believe could have caused it last night as last night was an even night, not an odd night. I suppose it's possible it's a PR, but if any of {Vaxkiller, Outworlder, mozamis} claimed to be said PR I flat-out wouldn't believe them on that claim. (Obviously if there IS in fact a killstopper outside of those three, they should naturally NOT claim under any circumstances here.)

Meaning that the most likely explanation for the no-kill is either:
One of the three above wanted to fakeclaim a killstopper role, OR,
The scum just didn't submit a nightkill last night.

Flea did not fakeclaim a killstopper role, eliminating faer from the former, and when it comes to the latter, I don't believe that Flea misses a night action like that as scum, whereas I can buy discouraged/demotivated/barely-in-the-game Vaxkiller/Outworlder/mozamis missing the deadline for the kill or thinking they have one but forgetting to bold it and the mod not having any final submission defaulting to none.

[mastina]

mastina should claim if she wants. We are in lylo.

While I could, I don't see reason to. Best to keep it a secret for as long as possible.
Most people know it at least partially but as conftown I'd like to keep it close to my chest for as long as humanly possible.

Mastina and whoever is connected with them - most likely.

What's mastinas role?

I hesitate to assume that unless mastinas role was "mason"

Are you conftown? Cos you and mastina could be scum together

And herein lies our remaining two scum.

I realize that it sucks to get POE'd.

But this IS pretty much POE.

I am genuinely conftown, confirmed by Auro: Auro rolecopped me and knows my role and confirmed it to be town. (That aside from folks who know my role through other means.)

Flea is conftown by virtue of being a neighbor with scum.

Enchant is basically conftown here by both role and play.

While T3 is not conftown by role, T3 is very very highly town by role and by play.

And then there's the approach to today contrasting between the two.

In a question of which do we want to do first, tho:

If someone can explain the absence of a night kill the other night, PELASE DO SO NOW

The most likely explanation for this is that mozamis siteflaked, and thus, that mozamis's replacement, Not_Mafia, is scum, so:
VOTE: Not_Mafia.

I am Town Odd Night Combined Mailman Alien. I targeted Flea last night and kill still happened.

Can confirm this as Gypyx targeted me N1 and Enchant targeted me N5.

[mastina]

I was dead wrong on just about everything.
mafia neighbors though.

Pretty much yeah.

I take full blame for the loss but I don't see a realm where this was in any way shape or form anything other than a scumsided setup.

ONE of {Flea, Enchant} being a scum role I could MAYBE see it being balanced with the other being town.

BOTH of them being scum means that town had, in a Large with 19 players and 4 scum with a mechanic that is if anything itself scumsided:
A role that can only become conftown if investigated by the rolecop (mine), which was 3-shot;
The combined 3x rolecop doctor;
The jailkeeper mailman;
The simple doctor;
The 2x tracker;
The N3 N4 cop.

That's not Large Normal levels of town power--that's literally MINI NORMAL levels of town power. (Well, very very slightly above. Six roles is about one too many for a 13p mini normal.)

Especially given how gated the roles were.

Rolecop couldn't get a guilty in this game, and was mostly as a protective.
The simple doctor couldn't save any of the PRs.
The tracker is incredibly unlikely to get any useful results because being two-shot, it's nearly impossible to get the scum nightkilling, especially in a game like this with the oddnight alien and the jailkeeper.
The majority of the town's power is in what amounts to a double-novice 2x cop--two innocents/guilties at most, AT BEST.

In contrast, the scum have a scum neighborhood which is literally one of the strongest scum roles in existence at least statistically speaking. In singleball, scum neighbor(specifically, multiple scum in a neighborhood) / scum neighborizer has one of the highest power rates of any scum PR, to the point where it is literally on par power-wise with AN UNGATED SCUM ROLEBLOCKER (traditionally one of the strongest scum roles in the game). It has a close to 100% scum winrate for damn good reason; it is something that towns struggle to identify and eliminate.

On top of that, scum have a role that is singlehandedly a counter to literally every town role in the game (aside from a day role that cannot be used outside of a 3p lylo--vengeful cannot be used effectively on evens or on 5p lylo because a vengekill in 5p lylo is still a town loss), with its only restriction being odd-night.

The setup was pretty damn scumsided imo, well past the 60% range; I'd say that town with these roles in this setup has a ~20-25% chance of winning.

That having been said.

I'm not going to blame the scumsided setup for the loss.

I'll take full responsibility for it; I fucked up, big time.
Also, Flea and Gypyx/Enchant both played quite well, so full credit to them, too.

While the setup was scumsided, I feel like they could have won the game even with it not being scumsided especially due to me putting too much stock into them being town.

[mastina]

Subject: ELECTORAL COLLEGE MAFIA MOD THREAD (over)

there's this nice thing about mastina as mailwoman which is that if you get one of those messages then you know that there's like no way it could have ever been produced by someone who is not mastina

For the record I feel like my role was very very very weak from a theoretical standpoint--town vengeful never wants to be outed or use their shot pre-3p lylo, and the mailman isn't that strong of a tool on its own. It's a role that for all intents and purposes, should be worthless, unless rolecopped by a stroke of luck.

I feel like I overperformed on the role--that it was much much stronger FOR ME than it was IN THEORY. And that I made it be more powerful than it had any right to have been.

Granted, didn't matter, I ended up messing up, butstill.