Open 862: Diffusion of Power (Game Over)

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: bbt

Apparently one of has to be mafia now

[Bellaphant]

Neither enchant or nm feel like I expect.

@bbt what's ausaka getting strikes for?

[Bellaphant]

Hi and-ancy!

@somnus, is it? Generally yes, but this enchant, day one elim bait...so even people processing it and saying 'eh let's leave this a day ' is a net positive for scum.

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: aliannaUNVOTE: ki]

I'm not getting anything concrete on aus or bbt but I didn't like Ali's interaction with either.

I think frogs believes what he is saying but not necessarily agree with it.

[Bellaphant]

@bbt I don't think I am? Most of the noise is coming from the you v ausaka thing and I'm not great at reading 1v1s: I have soul read ausake quite quickly in our last two games when both town, so I'm kinda waiting on that. You, I never want to sort day one.

More noise from enchant and nm - enchant is hard to meta,they don't feel like they did in cultists here tho. Nm I can usually read but this schtick is new.

I think sonmus is town and I'm protective of frogs, having just read then wrong in y'all's game with klick.

I think Ali I'd scum for two different reasons, one weak one better.

[Bellaphant]

@frogs, me Ans bbt used to play together really well, but because they hate meta (or something ) they do scumny shit as town and vice versa. Their tone also is aggressive no matter what and they aren't scares to produce content. However, since bbt and me have been back we've never been town together (maybe this time, I'll be lucky...etc )

[Bellaphant]

Three reasons.

[Bellaphant]

@frogs, not unreadable, he isn't that good just not a day one thing. And I prefer having them around to talk to anyway.

[Bellaphant]

@bbt, fair, I need to stop relying so hard on inference: I think I'm being obvious and then get surprised when people don't get it. I wasn't trying to be offensive though - I do think you do things that people see as being 'from scum ' as town and vice versa, and I have always assumed it's a little bit on purpose, because of your sig. I also said I think a lot of it is aggression, though - or forcefulness/purpose - you do want to get shit done as either alignment.

Re pocketing, I am going to be non commital and say sort of: in cultists I was mainly handling you with kid gloves, because rolling first scum in ages with you town was scary. I think in other games it might be easy for scum!Bella to pocket bbt for the same reason it's intially easy for scum!bbt to pocket Bella - we do tend to have similar thoughts at times, and I'm certainly trying to learn to make my scum game feel more like my town game by giving my actual thoughts - I got snowed recently by scum! lukewarm saying stuff that couksbe been from my brain but he was scum!

[Bellaphant]

@bbt, i know? You and ausaka were the main event , but I don't have much response to it. If anything, you and auska both now seeming to lightly sr aliana but not talk about this shared read makes me think it's just a breakdown of communication.

I think frogs can be town enough for day one: I'm basically not here for elim-ing nm, enchant or them today as they've been seen as lhf.

We can only talk about a sample size of one here without breaking the rules, so I can only talk about cultists, where I was definitely after your town read. I will say this, though: I don't fake feelings as either alignment.

I feel like you changed the goal posts on me - you wanted commital reads, I've given you tons! More than you've given.

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: aliana

Sorry, typo'd.

[Bellaphant]

@ausaka, I liked somnus' early game the most out of everyone, almost every post looked solvey. I don't love the recent 'look at me sticking my neck out ' but *shrug*. Again, it's a day one read - somnus has a pretty good scum game.

With alianna, it's a bunch of stuff: I don't like her interactions with you and bbt, the awkward fourth vote post, quite a few awkward posts in general. I don't see drive/forward progression.

[Bellaphant]

It's kind of what norwee and I think you have said - it doesn't look followed through enough in any convo. Bbt approaches her weirdly, the response is really shruggy, the. The response to you is different. I actually tried to vote them really early on just from their interactions, and then their posting got weirder around cop checks and stuff. I guess it's also tone - in iso, their 'vibe' literally shifts from post to post, like they aren't actually commited to the thoughts and feelings behind it.

[Bellaphant]

Like it's joke, joke, bad vote hiding in a joke, a maybe serious vote, a climb down, aggression in a joke, shit posting, a bad vote hiding in a joke, a joke, a climb down, a serious question, a serious response and an unvote...


I'm boring myself but it's actually weirder later, nothing seems to stick.

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: norwee

@bbt, I thought you didn't put a huge amount of stock into nka?

[Bellaphant]

Gonna come back to this after a bit more sleep, I just caught up and am now scum reading everyone apart from sonmus (old news) and gamma (new news)., p-edit I'll.ecpamd later but I'm just not getting town readable content from the slot? Before day start it was a lot of posts and not much content, but even though the noise to content ratio is better today I still don't feel I have much of a handle on what they actually think. I dunno, do you see it?

[Bellaphant]

I think sonmus is town

expand on this read pls?

I have already, like twice. Maybe bother andante less and read more?

Tbf it's really surprised me they were a check, they were my strongest tr day one.

[Bellaphant]

I remember somnus ' vote being fine and forgot it was pp as a counter wagon, but the wagon went fairly quick so don't know if actually important.

[Bellaphant]

@frog, finding the use of language a little bit emotional: there must be better words than abusive And gaslit. Can we tone it down a little? Like, I'm not even parsing the conversation and these touch paper words aren't helpful

[Bellaphant]

@fun times, you forgot 'i copped one of the few obv!town'.

Like....I can understand copping a person you were unsure on/wouldn't be able to read but that would be enchant/not mad/even penguin power for me, just because of playstyle.

[Bellaphant]

@fun times, you forgot 'i copped one of the few obv!town'.

Like....I can understand copping a person you were unsure on/wouldn't be able to read but that would be enchant/not mad/even penguin power for me, just because of playstyle.

Oh? Link/quote? I don’t recall?

~Nancy btw

Sorry, this was sarcasm - I just really don't like the choice.

[Bellaphant]

@frog, finding the use of language a little bit emotional: there must be better words than abusive And gaslit. Can we tone it down a little? Like, I'm not even parsing the conversation and these touch paper words aren't helpful

“Touch paper”?
I probably understand the meaning of this less due to the existence of the phrase “touch grass”

Emotive I guess. The content doesn't seem like frog actually wants to upset the hydra, but the words are going to do that. Frogs response to everything seems really overblown but I'm not sure if scum would make this much noise?

[Bellaphant]

Also we have two cops so do you trust one and not the other?

I mean, both are alive..

how bad of an idea is it to yeet goldfish, then if goldfish is town, we have an IC, and if scum, well, yeah scum down

Only one was claimed D1.

I’m no Jinglebingle so I can’t be certain as to the mechanics, but that doesn’t feel like a good trade rn.

I'm not massively opposed to this? If goldfish is scum, which isn't out of possibility, then somnus is either town, or also scum. If goldfish is town, then as fun times says, we still have an ic. It feels harsh to say what have we lost.

[Bellaphant]

@fun times, no, I think somnus is town either way basically. Sorry, I thought I'd been clear.

[Bellaphant]

@norwee, any takes on frog?

[Bellaphant]

@norwee, maybe we should chat. I did ask you about frogs: do you have any questions for me?

[Bellaphant]

@norwee, maybe we should chat. I did ask you about frogs: do you have any questions for me?

Ignoring your vote or thoughts on me.
What are your ideas of other potential mafia players in this game?
If you could vig an player right now who would it be and why?

Assuming that my vig and mafia answers are different, I'd probably vig in enchant or nm: I actually have taken pride in being able to read both of them but this game is different.

I don't do teams day one, but I don't think goldfish is town. I feel a little weird about bbt too, but that mainky about their day start: he's not been around since.

You?

[Bellaphant]

Goldfish*
Who the heck is blood? I'm so tired.

Blood is blue blooded toffee.

[

@mod, he could do with a prod

[Bellaphant]

@mod, goldfish needs a prod

@norwwe I've asked you questions at least twice now, can you leave enchant alone for a bit and talk to me?

[Bellaphant]

you checked somnus because?

1. Because I find them hard to read
2. a few ppl were scumreading them
3. someone (I think it was bbt) suggested them as a good check
And 4. because I'm paranoid because they've been scum in every game I've played with them.

Also, sorry to go back to this, but:

'a few people ' seems just to have been ausaka, who asked me about my town read and then said somnus was scum only if partners with aliana. It looks like there were more stated town reads.

[Bellaphant]

Anyway, time to see what is going on with this VC, and why it seems no one is voting anyone else.

There's some votes on your slot that could easily be due to frogs misguided push fun times push, and a fair few on norwee. Think Enchant might have some?.

[Bellaphant]

Has your read on Gamma changed?

I felt like our 1v1 was making the game intolerable so i backed off to give it more thought.

I want you to be town, but like… it’s like you feel 2 townie 2 b town.
How do you think people should read you? Do you think you behave an certain way as scum?

Are you normally this skeptical of people you're hard town-reading? I see "too scummy to be scum" thrown around on this site way too much, but I don't think I've ever heard of "too townie to be town".

@bbt There's a few things: how they approach enchant, I really liked the response about low hanging fruit, but also this. Do you disagree?

[Bellaphant]

Also, you mentioned my norwee vote: I don't see much town going on? Even when I've tried to engage with them. Even now I asked them about their reads and it's just miselim bait and ...pp, which is just a bit meh?

,

[Bellaphant]

Bella, I noticed that you didn't expand on 'everyone being scum' outside of Gamma and Somnus?

Would you mind running me through that?

There was lots of shit posting and arguing, I think I was upset by frogs language. I was tired.

[Bellaphant]

Bella, you town read Somnus before 330 so can you go back a little further please?

What do you like about how they approached Enchant? Can you quote post it?

What response regarding low hanging fruit? Again, can you quote it please?

Pedit - What do you think about Norwegian's 484 ?

Pedit again - I don't particularly like that answer Bella. I feel like you're hedging your reads this game and scum reading Norwegian is a very safe take for you to have right now.

@Fun Times - It's not a silly question to ask because you use meta as a defence for everything. So it's like 'forget what you think because x, y and z think we're town because meta so you should too!' which I don't really buy.

Pedit again - How is it hypocritical?

I'll go back later and quote but enchant claims n5 doc or something really early and somnus just asks sensible questions.

Much later, probably after my read, but still very much about my read going into n1, which is what I was talking about, he says that nm and enchant are both lhf (I think in response to someone else saying it, maybe me???) But he doesn't want to elim either right now. It felt very organic.

I'll check that norwee posts in a bit, but you accused me of 'hedging my reads' day one and I wasn't, in fact I asked for yours in response to me being explicit and you basically responsed by calling me 'sassy' instead. So, some reads?

Plus, my norwee read was fairly early and I actually started the Alinaa wagon, (my vote was formatted wrong and didn't count but I'm p sure I was first, if not second), so I really don't know where this accusation has come from? Especially not twice.

[Bellaphant]

Andante, please relax.

IM RIGHT!!! LIKE!! HYPEEEE!!! I FOUND A WOLF!!! I'm excited!!

but sure whatever, I'm out

-Andante

Yes yes... we will quote your name long in the credits list somewhere...

But the true credit obviously goes to the worlds most clever detective!

@bbt post?? The link you linked goes back to mod post and I'm not seeing anything in the actual 484: it's more detective memes. They were and still are bad but nai bad.

[Bellaphant]

That's sweet. I feel pocketed already but I'm a sucker for compliments.

I still will be voting for the last person to join the game. It probably won't mean much though, and even less now that I've explained it. But I'm a man of my word.

It's Enchant.

Likely a fake claim.

I don't particularly like it.

VOTE: Enchant

Well, I'm a sheep so...

VOTE: Enchant

I don't put much stock in a page 2 claim, especially in this setup, but why would this be scum indicative? Like, is the thought that Enchant decided to fake-claim as mafia here thinking we'd all keep him around just for his alleged Night 5 result? I'm not being snarky here. I'm genuinely curious.

I meant to do my homework and look at if this is the kind of setup where mass-claim even matters at some point or if Day 1/2 PRs are considered more valuable than 4/5, but Youtube was beckoning and 1 video led to 14 and here we are.

He could, sure. And we're probably treading into the deep waters of WIFOM and without knowing the ins and outs of how this setup tends to play out, my gut tells me that claiming on page 2 probably wasn't the best idea.

But since he did, does claiming Night 5 Cop as mafia seem like a +EV play here? Do you think he discussed this in a PT with 2 hypothetically buddies pre-game as a good idea or just decided to like...wing it as mafia out of boredom as soon as the game started?

[Bellaphant]

I meant to quote the somnus post before that, about RVs. The enchant discussion was with you, bbt!

...but that isn't how the aliana wagon happened. Like, I certainly didn't vote because town!norwee found a scum slip?? Also, it says more about fun times, surely? I'm not seeing it at all.

P-edit, if that's all they do, yes. But I haven't quoted somnus' full iso, he's clearly not doing that. They seem to be involved in thinking about the game critically throughout their day one.

[Bellaphant]

Not all mech spec is scummy. Enchant wasn't scummy in deptuy cultists. Just mech spec is scummy, yes.

[Bellaphant]

I try Ans fail to vote aliana on page 9, you and frogs vote on page 12, a VC comes and I re-add my vote, just to clarify what I said about aliana.

[Bellaphant]

Not all mech spec is scummy. Enchant wasn't scummy in deptuy cultists. Just mech spec is scummy, yes.

1. You was cult in that game.
2. I claimed not CCed PR, and conftowned due of that, nothing to do with "scummy not scummy".

There was mech spec outside of this, I'm not talking about your claim at all really?

[Bellaphant]

I wasn't really speaking to you regarding the Ali wagon, I was more interested in your town read of Somnus. You claimed a town read on him in 330 and I was asking you to show me where this read formed. Those 3 posts you quoted could easily come from either alignment a sit involved a lot of mech spec so I'm still unsure how you formed that town read unless there are other posts before 330?

I don't understand the reference to town!Norwegian finding a scum slip? Or the reference to Fun Times either.

I mentioned the Ali thing because you keep saying I'm hesitant or hedgey with my reads - starting a wagon isn't that.

I've explained about somnus': I'm not going to quote his whole day one iso at you - I'm not sure what you want? You asked for examples of him thinking critically Ans asking questions, which I showed you, then your point was that mech could be scumny, which, yes, but the rest of his iso isn't. You also seem to be unhappy that I went from 'a bit of a town read' to 'more of a town read" as the day went on.

As to the norwee bit, I'm just confused. You literally said it was evidence of town!norwee finding a scum slip, but the rest of that quote is fun times saying they caught a scum.

[Bellaphant]

I feel like that is Town!Norwegian trying to claim early credit for a scum!Ali flip.

Given Ali flipped town, then 484 seems unlikely to come from scum.

Will get to your longer post when I can

I responded to this, which is what you said. You then asked me why I was talking about town!norwee and claiming a scum slip????

[Bellaphant]

Like, you specifically point this rather meh post out, I say 'wut' , you can talk about town!norwee, I respond, saying that isn't what happened, or if it is more applicable for fun times, Ans you say you are confused why I'm talking about it.

[Bellaphant]

The rest is vibes. I don't know what the issue is.

Where else are my reads hedgey?
What are, for the third time, your reads?

.....is that norwee post something that can't come from scum? I don't think anyone but you is actually giving norwee the credit?? This isn't even a point.

P-edit your pushes are just weird though? Fun times is town, norwee isn't a shining beacon of town, town reading somnus for vibes and being solvey isn't wild?

[Bellaphant]

@bbt, I'm just feeling unmotivated to post a list of 'vibes town ' posts for you to tell me he could do it as scum? But taken overall, it felt very town to me, especially on day one when I was struggling for some reads elsewhere.

I can see what you are saying about norwee now, but I think fun times did the same thing: do you disagree?

I just don't see what you see with fun times. Can you show me why you town read norwee? Because I'm baffled.

[Bellaphant]

Nooooo I'm a masochist. Put that vote back on me. I dare you.

See? Penguin has the right idea. Quitter.

VOTE: bbt

Apparently one of has to be mafia now

Oh NOW she's willing to vote him immediately.

Sorry, couldn't help it, Bella

Funny. I tend to town read 'funny', especially early on.

Hello. Please tell me why you would take that seriously and why it would have any less merit than any other RVS vote.

I actually just really like this move out of RVs. 9/10 I give a day one town read to this slot.

It's Enchant.

Likely a fake claim.

I don't particularly like it.

VOTE: Enchant

Well, I'm a sheep so...

VOTE: Enchant

I don't put much stock in a page 2 claim, especially in this setup, but why would this be scum indicative? Like, is the thought that Enchant decided to fake-claim as mafia here thinking we'd all keep him around just for his alleged Night 5 result? I'm not being snarky here. I'm genuinely curious.

I meant to do my homework and look at if this is the kind of setup where mass-claim even matters at some point or if Day 1/2 PRs are considered more valuable than 4/5, but Youtube was beckoning and 1 video led to 14 and here we are.

I think d2 massclaim is rather common and I don't think it's that bad

Good to know. Sometime within the next couple days, I want to take a quick skim through a handful of the previous games in this setup. I wasn't sure if this is one of those setups where mass-claim at some point tends to give town an advantage.

Like the enchant vibes, talking about doing the background reading.

I'm going to put my neck out on the line already and say this wagon is a bad idea. To the few of you who were just in Deputy Cultists, Enchant claimed his PR role on Day 1 in that game as well. Granted, it was known that there was exactly one Day 4 Governor, so it's not the exact same situation. But I'm hard opposed to this already.

Mech, but food mech

Hi and-ancy!

@somnus, is it? Generally yes, but this enchant, day one elim bait...so even people processing it and saying 'eh let's leave this a day ' is a net positive for scum.

I guess? I mean, there's multiple cops that could check him. I wouldn't want multiple cops wasting their 1-shot on it though.

Still good mech. Reading back, the only think I don't like now Is k wish they'd challenged the enchant vote more at the time,.but the next post is 'i don't like the wagon'.

[Bellaphant]

Also, background reading again. (Deputy) - he's showing be knows you, me, enchant. I dunno, could be a weird scum flex but I doubt it.

[Bellaphant]

I know! I knew it wouldn't make you go 'yes, aha'. It works for me though.

[Bellaphant]

Have we had a recent vc? I'm down to elim Jake.

[Bellaphant]

You aren't telling me anything about the game state. Where's your head at, what are your takes?

[Bellaphant]

Like, all I know is you think pp is town. Which is a slightly hot take but a weird thing to focus on .

[Bellaphant]

That's not an answer. What do you think about the game.

I'm about to vote you. Not 'your slot '.

[Bellaphant]

Norwee did this too, I asked them like three times for takes on the game and then they were super aggy with me in their response. This game is like pulling teeth.

[Bellaphant]

I am voting you because you have provided no thoughts on the current game state and have provided very little in terms of reads.

You also seem more interested in writing silly posts as opposed to actually solving the game.

I am about to be doing the same.

[Bellaphant]

I wish I knew how. I'm not communicating well with anyone this game it seems.

Scum me doesn't start the wagon on aliana and then go through her iso like that day one. Why draw attention to myself?

[Bellaphant]

UNVOTE:

[Bellaphant]

Gamma is town, yes, not sure about enchant.

[Bellaphant]

@norwee, your posting last page was everything I was looking for.

[Bellaphant]

@nancy, hope andante is ok

@jakie, if you could clarify your bbt thoughts a bit more that'd be ace

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: enchant

[Bellaphant]

I don't think norwee v enchant is t v t. And I don't think norwee is scum any more. I don't understand why they lost their cool at me, but their overall progression on slots feels natural with their recent reads post.

@bbt that's a silly vote.

[Bellaphant]

Also I'm stuck on a train outside London and have been for 2 hours. I am pissed

[Bellaphant]

Nah, I was going to vote Jakie as their catch up has been massively underwhelming, but their last post was actually pretty good? Their readlist is questionable but I'm starting to think scum just aren't in the 'active' posters and I'm not ready to vote for the goldfish slot until their replacement comes in.

[Bellaphant]

I've explained the answer to that, from my pov, a few times it feels. But to recap:
1) no content
2) weird check
3) convenient claim/check for scum
4) their explanation of it was like four reasons Ans three of them were the same (bad) reason.

[Bellaphant]

To be honest I skin read the norwee/enchant back and forths (I think I read the first one a bit better) and just came away feeling like it felt really purposeless - that's why I think it's not t v t because most t v t I can kind of see 'the point'.

P-edit what's the doc bit of that sentence about? I don't think anyone said that???

[Bellaphant]

I'd rather do goldfish over somnus 100%

[Bellaphant]

See, I was agreeing with you until the last few words.

[Bellaphant]

OK, I actually relate to that. I am finding this game incredibly difficult to find scum reads in.

This is why I said I felt scum were mostly absent.

[Bellaphant]

@bbt, I'd bet money on there being at least one scum in enchant/goldfish/somnus, and I town read sonmus! Pp feels missing too.

[Bellaphant]

@enchant, what is your actual take on goldfish? You asked me but didn't really respond and then did similar with bbt

[Bellaphant]

Why? I really need more from you.

[Bellaphant]

Hey Jake, why Enchant and why not BB or the hydra?

I think gamma wants you to check in with auro

[Bellaphant]

@bbt, I'd bet money on there being at least one scum in enchant/goldfish/somnus, and I town read sonmus! Pp feels missing too.

I certainly wouldn't bet against this.

I don't think you can class Enchant as 'missing' though?

Fair. Empty, I guess? It's like I said about their back and forth with norwee: what's the point? Like, it's not a moving forward type position.

[Bellaphant]

I get it, I think I'm doing it with nm. I hate this new nm, it uses to be one of my few skills: I've never read town nm as scum.

Also, happy birthday. Does this make you a Leo?

[Bellaphant]

Yeah, I wasn't talking about elimming Somnus.

I meant that if we elim Goldfish and it turns out he is town, then scum are forced (?) to kill Somnus as he is confirmed. Given Somnus isn't providing a whole lot right now, it doesn't seem the biggest loss in the world.

I don’t think in the world where A: Goldfish is town and B: Somnus is made conf!town.
That there is even much threat to Somnus dying given that town likely has an N2 doctor that could protect them in that case and mafia would probably be keenly aware of that so maybe not even dare try.

We still lost one townie for conftowning another. While we already considered him town.

If you SCUMREAD Goldfish then maybe it makes sense, but you mostly "not sure" and going for it because it gives you conftown.
Which is useless.

Aye?

Do you consider Somnus town?

You believe goldfish is cop but not their result?

~N

Who the fuck are you and how you even get this idea.

VOTE: Don Draper

See, posts like the first one make me wonder if enchant is town, but then it's just rehashing stuff: the idea that goldfish is prob!scum isn't news.

And then we get posts like the second where it's just unnatural.

[Bellaphant]

I get it, I think I'm doing it with nm. I hate this new nm, it uses to be one of my few skills: I've never read town nm as scum.

Also, happy birthday. Does this make you a Leo?

I think NM is actually making decent contributions. But I also feel like he is throwing shade pretty much anywhere without actually making pushes.

Thanks! Yeah I'm a Leo.

Pedit - Thanks Sherlock

Contributions yeah, but I can't think right now what their reads are.

Also, I should've guessed.

[Bellaphant]

Contributions yeah, but I can't think right now what their reads are.

Also, I should've guessed.

Yeah exactly, I had the same with Enchant which is why I asked what their reads where. Do you think scum!Enchant is more likely to BS reads as opposed to saying 'I have no scum reads'

I don't know what that means that you should've guessed. Do I want to haha?

I feel like I had more of a handle on enchants reads in deputies. I don't know what he would or wouldn't do, I find him too unpredictable.

My long term ex and my ex bff were Leos.

@nm, some reads please?

[Bellaphant]

? My vote.on norwee that comes after gammas vote on norwee and after bbts on somnus? What's different about mine that makes it 'fast'?

[Bellaphant]

....that feels weird.

What's your read on me elsewise?

[Bellaphant]

Why is pp so high nm?

[Bellaphant]

^ can we consolidate a little pls

[Bellaphant]

Is that still Nancy?

[Bellaphant]

Just slightly worried that Auro scum read me for a shit reason about vote counts and you missing the enchant wagon being so big. I'm slightly drink and a bit paranoid I guess: reassure me?

[Bellaphant]

Bbt voted enchant a bit before you.

[Bellaphant]

I'm a math teacher!

[Bellaphant]

Nm is reformed, you see

[Bellaphant]

@ft, I think both enchant and Jakie are on e-2?

[Bellaphant]

Tbf I wouldn't be surprised at all if goldfish was scum but that applies to like five people

[Bellaphant]

@don, goldfish, enchant, nm, Jakie and pp

[Bellaphant]

Sorry, those are my five in the 'they can't all be scum but some are/also there is probably an effort!scum that isn't in this list "

[Bellaphant]

Why is bbt so low?

[Bellaphant]

@don, those aren't all scum.reads, and I don't think all the scum is in there, but they are my slots with the least coherent takes.

Nm I'm just struggling with.
Enchant and Jake both seem scummy: but Jake's hit rate of engagement/progression feels higher than enchants, even though enchant is making some good posts.
Pp I've just got nothing from. I often find those 'grey' slots in my mind end up flipping scum
And goldfish I've spoken about a lot.

[Bellaphant]

Also, in terms of 'meta', enchants been scum when I've been town a lot recently and seems to have two modes as scum: absent, or shit posty. He was very different in cultists, but he had a confirmable pr to rely on and I do wonder if that changed his approach.

I've also read two of frogs, and wanted to elim him immediately in both (he was town). I don't think I've read any of Jakies.

[Bellaphant]

Who would you prefer? You are being fairly oblique with your reads

[Bellaphant]

I know that, silly goose, still not clear why.

[Bellaphant]

You keep saying this and I keep posting reads while you don't. It's boring and annoying. I think my progression on reads is fairly transparent too - I moved from scum reading norwee to thinking they are most likely town, my tr of the hydra is slipping, etc: I'm not hiding things

We solve differently, I'm never as aggressive as you as town or scum.

I've talked about enchant and Jake a lot. Enchant hasn't really tried to engage in my scum read of them, although they have done to slots like gamma, which also strikes me as weird. It would be easy to say the dueling wagons mean one is deffo town and one is deffo scum, and from that 50/50 I'd pick enchant any day -i don't see what the hydra sees about their meta (enchant has had scum games where they are absent, but not all of them, and does this feel like deptuy cultists enchant to you??).

Do you have other scum reads? Your scum read of me feels weirdly 'safe', especially because you aren't basing it on much.

[Bellaphant]

Cool, can auro come ask me some questions? I work better having a chat..

[Bellaphant]

@nancy, they've made what, one post? So, weirdly, no. Why ask?

[Bellaphant]

(I mean other than both holders of the slot have been basically absent.)

[Bellaphant]

Awkward, because I was about to respond to bbt that nm kinda fills that middle role for me.

@mistress, no, I'll post proper responses after its not dinner/bath/bed time

[Bellaphant]

@misyress, not really here but that post was at bbt!

[Bellaphant]

You keep saying this and I keep posting reads while you don't. It's boring and annoying. I think my progression on reads is fairly transparent too - I moved from scum reading norwee to thinking they are most likely town, my tr of the hydra is slipping, etc: I'm not hiding things

We solve differently, I'm never as aggressive as you as town or scum.

I've talked about enchant and Jake a lot. Enchant hasn't really tried to engage in my scum read of them, although they have done to slots like gamma, which also strikes me as weird. It would be easy to say the dueling wagons mean one is deffo town and one is deffo scum, and from that 50/50 I'd pick enchant any day -i don't see what the hydra sees about their meta (enchant has had scum games where they are absent, but not all of them, and does this feel like deptuy cultists enchant to you??).

Do you have other scum reads? Your scum read of me feels weirdly 'safe', especially because you aren't basing it on much.

It's not about aggression but more about lots of words that don't say anything, you know?

What does weird mean? Does it tell you anything that Enchant has engaged with Gamma and not you? I agree, it is easy to say one of them must be scum but I don't know, it doesn't feel that way to me. Frog's push on hydra at start of D2 is my main reason for town reading that slot, I don't think Jake has done all that much since replacing in. Enchant is hard to read for me, but their engagement levels and push back on their wagon feels town.

Deputy Cultists was completely different because Enchant was conf town so I don't think that game applies to this game at all?

I'm struggling for scum reads in this game, I've said this before. When I'm struggling, I look at people who are kind of in the middle of the game, not making too much noise or too many hot takes. You fit that description, as does Penguin. Outside of that, I really don't know.

Can you give me some examples, and explain how it's scummy? It's just how I talk and I don't think this should be news to you. In terms of solving, noticing things like enchants push back to gamma but not other people is the start of a solving process - I don't have an answer, but you have to notice things that feel out of place

(@mistress, that's why I'm reacting to the scum read on me for the misread vote count - I think before I'd just town binned your slot for tone, and it's important not to miss things that 'hitch' that read - it does show a lack of detailed reading of the thread. It also mainly worries me because I'm still not sure why Auro scum reads me, and it does seem your read of me has changed since I questioned the scum read: certainly your approach has, but that might just be the replacement)

Back to @bbt - Enchant has said they think gamma is scum for not knowing their meta, but I don't think their meta massively supports them being town. You've said that about deputy cultists before and I'm not sure I follow, can you walk me through it?.

I agree about penguin,.I forgot they are in the game, but I also struggle to.remember anything nm has said.

[Bellaphant]

@mistress, you popped straight up when bbt started talking about a wagon/ a scum read of me, but managed to not notice the post you responded quite attacky to and asked me if i.was 'denying that fact' wasn't even to you. Can you not see why I'd find that worrying?

[Bellaphant]

@nancy, as far as I'm aware, Auro scum read me because of misreading a vote count - he said I was the first vote on day two when I wasnt. That's why 'vcs' are linked in my mind: does that make things clearer? Auro really hasn't explained their scum read on me elsewise.

[Bellaphant]

Cool, why else though? I've been asking you to clarify and come chat to me.

I feel better about the kop slot

[Bellaphant]

Who would you vote now @enchant @jake

[Bellaphant]

Switching my vote won't even end the day, will it? I'm around for a bit tonight.

[Bellaphant]

@pp, @gamma, can you talk about moving your vote at the end of the day? I hadn't realised how shifting the wagons were.

[Bellaphant]

Looking at the votes and positioning, I think the ones that ring alarm bells for me are pp, gamma and bbt, but I did have an early tr on gamma. I really liked nm posting on the last page.

[Bellaphant]

@norwee, haven't looked at actual votes but the 'early' ones were nm, enchant and somnus, yeah? Out of those, somnus is most likely town.

Trying to get my head around maybe both wagons being on scum: it would explain why we couldn't get a pile on of votes later on the day.

[Bellaphant]

? Was that at me? That feels a bit ott considering how it was clearly phrases as a speculation

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: aliannaUNVOTE: ki]

I'm not getting anything concrete on aus or bbt but I didn't like Ali's interaction with either.

I think frogs believes what he is saying but not necessarily agree with it.

What made you think Frog "believes what they are saying"?

He just seemed pretty pissed. Ive never really done that as scum (or town), I just tend to see emotion as more townie. Also, couldn't work out why you'd blow up and draw that much attention as scum!

@bbt, fair, I need to stop relying so hard on inference: I think I'm being obvious and then get surprised when people don't get it. I wasn't trying to be offensive though - I do think you do things that people see as being 'from scum ' as town and vice versa, and I have always assumed it's a little bit on purpose, because of your sig. I also said I think a lot of it is aggression, though - or forcefulness/purpose - you do want to get shit done as either alignment.

Re pocketing, I am going to be non commital and say sort of: in cultists I was mainly handling you with kid gloves, because rolling first scum in ages with you town was scary. I think in other games it might be easy for scum!Bella to pocket bbt for the same reason it's intially easy for scum!bbt to pocket Bella - we do tend to have similar thoughts at times, and I'm certainly trying to learn to make my scum game feel more like my town game by giving my actual thoughts - I got snowed recently by scum! lukewarm saying stuff that couksbe been from my brain but he was scum!

Ok, but why start mentioning how you were thinking of improving your scumgame suddenly?

The joke with bbt was that I hadn't been scum for literally Years (true) before I've recently started playing again. So far, either me or him have been scum! So I wanted to respond to his ideas about pocketing by talking about the thing I think we do similarly, when we do a lot of other stuff different, if that makes sense?

[Bellaphant]

@ mod, talking of bbt, he needs a prod.

[Bellaphant]

I think the slot before the replace looked a lot worse, so a bus would be probable.

[Bellaphant]

Why are you tr-ing bb @enchant

[Bellaphant]

Sorry, there's been a fuck ton of child care in my life this week.

I still think norwee is town. Somis, norwee and gamma are the ones making most sense to me at the moment. I can't understand bbts pressure on me at all but like...he's been like that since day one. Is the argument now that the Jake wagon was pure and there was many scum on enchant? Because that seems really convenient for the dodgy votes on the enchant wagon.

I want to scum read enchant for their attitude and sheeping but I'm more worried about bbt.

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: bbt I feel like I've been giving the benefit of the doubt but the last page or so feels like lining up mis-lims.

[Bellaphant]

? Expand?

[Bellaphant]

Oh, you mean like your last response to me? I see. I dislike your read on him but I can see it, I think a lot of my read of them is because of their responses to me .

I'm not convinced on you either way.

[Bellaphant]

? I've already strongly indicated I'd be fine voting penguin. I like my current vote better right now: do you think it's a bad one?

[Bellaphant]

@mod, kop needs a prod

[Bellaphant]

Enchant was a counter wagon to Jake and those wagons were very much 50/50 for what felt like a good % of the day.

No doubt scum tried to save Jake by voting Enchant.

And wouldn't scum vote Jake when it looked like it was for sure he would die?
Or do you seriously argue that me and Bella are scum and decided to keep voting Enchant, knowing Jake would flip and make our slots look awful. You're basically claiming that we are idiots.

But Penguin was the vote that tipped the balance towards Jake, if Penguin didn't vote there, the elimination probably would have ended up on Enchant

I don't think both of you are scum, I think exactly one of you is scum.

This is an illogical mindset. You're treating it as if it's fact that there has to be scum in me/Bella when that in itself is an fallacy because you're not considering the possibility that we could both be town.

These are basically my thoughts. I could compromise on kop though.

P-edit Its really obvious bbt is tunneled but the thing I don't like is his read hasn't progressed on me at all and seems to basically be in his head and he doesn't want to discuss that his read on me is mostly paranoid.

I also know how tempting it is to be in the 'one scum one town' mindset, because I thought it about enchant and norwee day two. In fact bbt called me out on it. I'm no longer wedded to it.

[Bellaphant]

UNVOTE:

Why

Rude, how are you actually reading me?

[Bellaphant]

You seem sad enchant unvoted me, I want to know why..

[Bellaphant]

Oh, sorry, I'm a vc behind. Anyway, guess the question still stands.

[Bellaphant]

I don't understand this push on norwee, but I don't want to answer for them.

@enchant, any questions for me? Why did you unvote pp? I think it's a decent wagon.

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: penguin power the bbt thing isn't going to get resolved if they aren't here.

[Bellaphant]

Enchant was a counter wagon to Jake and those wagons were very much 50/50 for what felt like a good % of the day.

No doubt scum tried to save Jake by voting Enchant.

And wouldn't scum vote Jake when it looked like it was for sure he would die?
Or do you seriously argue that me and Bella are scum and decided to keep voting Enchant, knowing Jake would flip and make our slots look awful. You're basically claiming that we are idiots.

But Penguin was the vote that tipped the balance towards Jake, if Penguin didn't vote there, the elimination probably would have ended up on Enchant

I don't think both of you are scum, I think exactly one of you is scum.

This is an illogical mindset. You're treating it as if it's fact that there has to be scum in me/Bella when that in itself is an fallacy because you're not considering the possibility that we could both be town.

These are basically my thoughts. I could compromise on kop though.

P-edit Its really obvious bbt is tunneled but the thing I don't like is his read hasn't progressed on me at all and seems to basically be in his head and he doesn't want to discuss that his read on me is mostly paranoid.

I also know how tempting it is to be in the 'one scum one town' mindset, because I thought it about enchant and norwee day two. In fact bbt called me out on it. I'm no longer wedded to it.

This, basically. I can't tell if your scum read on me feels weird because it's scummy (i'm leaning to this, mainly because it feels really stale/safe) or not. It feels a lot like you are pointing at 'generic Bella things ' and deciding they are scummy. On the other hand I think I'd probably give it more of a pass from someone else.

Either way my vote on you feels like a vanity wagon and this game needs progress

[Bellaphant]

Plus you wanted to elim me, my top town read and gamma, who I was hard tr-ing at day start but not so much now. It rang alarm bells.

[Bellaphant]

Real talk: i also thought you were trying to fake claim a guilty on me with your day start vote , which just felt really off: I was kinda waiting to see what you were gonna do with it, but then nothing happened.

Gammas votes today have been awful though

[Bellaphant]

I didnt have much to react to - and it had to be a reaction test. I wanted to see how you'd follow it up: it's a pressure move and then there was no pressure, so my reaction was mainly a shrug. I thought early in the day phase it was super Sus but you sort of not doing anything about it felt more town - why wouldn't you, as scum, make something either out of the move or even out of my non reaction. But then it kinda cycles back to 'he wasn't here', so it's not lock anything for me.

I've discussed why I think your reasons don't really translate - early alianna vote, more of a push on goldfish than I think would've been massively sensible as scum start of day two, I think my reads are fairly clear. The game being quite a f. Isn't helping though.

Norwee is my top town read, although I think somnus is lock town. I tr not mafia. I was really strongly tr-ing gamma but I'm not now at all. Im still in two minds about you and enchant.

Is there anything specific in norwee's posting today you can point to? Even post numbers? Their day one /early day two I scum read but I've found it better since!

[Bellaphant]

But it's true? I spent most of day two getting nothing out of the slot because of their fight with enchant. Then they stopped doing that and I've really vibes with their posting. This is clear and present in the thread.

Me asking you about your reasons for scum reading them is also about you and your thought process. It helps me understand you, mostly.

[Bellaphant]

@pp, I have no reason to tr you in your posting and your position around yesterday's wagons looks scummy.

[Bellaphant]

Also, you've ignored the bulk of my post to focus on me saying my read of norwee has evolved? I'm sure that's not the most interesting thing I said.

[Bellaphant]

My problem is that none of the three people who moved their vote weirdly at the end of the day (pp, gamma and bbt) are acknowledging that the wagon moved fast, that it would've been an opportune bus, etc. Especially bbt, who's decided instead that there has to be scum on the other wagon, which feels convenient.

@gamma, talk to me about your vote?

[Bellaphant]

That's really interesting (I know that sounds sarcastic), because it felt very different to me? It felt like the wagon could've literally gone either way Ans then suddenly with very little 'reason' a bunch of votes moved in what felt like a really quick time - certainly between me checking the thread and then it being hammered next time I checked. Jumping on for town cred there looked like an ideal opportunity - I think I'd have done it as scum, I guess.

[Bellaphant]

Unofficial Votecount

Jake The Wolfie (4)- Not_Mafia, Enchant, Somnus, BlueBloodedToffee
Enchant (4)- Bellaphant, NorwegianboyEE, Jake The Wolfie, PenguinPower

Not voting (3)- Kop, Gamma Emerald, Don Draper x Mistress

With 11 alive it takes 6 to reach a majority.

Deadline is in (expired on 2022-08-22 16:00:00)

Mod notes: I got two shinies in legends: arceus today

No change it seems.

VOTE: Jake

See! I knew I wasn't going mad - it was before deadline and the vote count was still evens. .

I get what you are saying about avoidong a no lim.

Hmm. I don't think my whole theory is shit though

[Bellaphant]

@ gamma, the cop vote. I think out of the three votes that I found Sus on Jake, bbts was the worst at the time Ans the worst in hindsight.

@penguin, thanks!

I don't think enchants was a slip, I think it was a general theory thing? They seem to have their head around set up quite well.
I wish I had more thoughts on kop.

[Bellaphant]

UNVOTE:

[Bellaphant]

Fair, I hadn't processed what would happen if the slot was left alone all game, but you are right .plus, Enchant seems to be saying we have less cops anyway?

[Bellaphant]

If they don't respond to Thier imminent prod with some content, I'll hammer


Actually, I'll hammer even if I don't like the contents

[Bellaphant]

I think most people voting thought this was going to flip town!

[Bellaphant]

Is this stronger than 'shitpush insurance'?

[Bellaphant]

VOTE: bbt

We should've done this yesterday

[Bellaphant]

Why fake claim a guilty once when you can do it twice??

[Bellaphant]

@mod, bbt and norwee imminently need a prod

[Bellaphant]

That's terrible. Why norwee ?

[Bellaphant]

Would a mass claim inject some life back?

[Bellaphant]

Yeah, I'm not sure why the game is so dead - we hit scum today and mass claim tomorrow, organise some doc protects and we're good, right? It becomes really simple Poe.

[Bellaphant]

Tbf I am slightly concerned by norwee today.

[Bellaphant]

There isn't a why. He's really clearly demotivated scum.

[Bellaphant]

I've not seen you like this full stop.
To half arse faking a guilty?

[Bellaphant]

From the rest of the vibe of the thread. Tbf I think scum are overall demotivated..you say I'm not solving but I'm figuring out slots, you just keep saying the same thing and then telling me I'm not solving.

Also, you literally said you kinda wanted the other one to look like a fake guilty.

[Bellaphant]

It was norwee not seeming bothered that really put me off. They've been my strongest town read all game (i still think gamma and norwee are top town) but it was a realt surprise to have them just knock back what could be progress while bitching about the cop elim.

We don't need to rush anything.

P-edit I've discussed why I was focused on bbt yesterday, yesterday. I also gave up the wagon, but their day start today was the same as yesterday and that's apparently fine?

[Bellaphant]

\o/ gg.