Mini Normal 2180 | Fake Peoples | Endgame

[Shoshin]

Hi everyone!

[Shoshin]

ABR's obvious scum when scum, not too worried about him. I'm just hoping DV's town so we can steamroll the scum.

[Shoshin]

Nora's already obvious town, so that's nice.

[Shoshin]

Voting me isn't town, Gamma.

[Shoshin]

Hey VPB, what're your reads so far?

[Shoshin]

Nothing too serious yet. You?

Nora's obviously town. Gamma's scummy for supporting votes on me, & unwnd's towny for voting Gamma.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Noraa

I also find this scummy from ABR.

[Shoshin]

Nothing too serious yet. You?

Nora's obviously town. Gamma's scummy for supporting votes on me, & unwnd's towny for voting Gamma.

which games have you played with noraa-scum, pray tell?

Bad question.

[Shoshin]

I highly doubt that you can read Noraa, her friendliness is NAI, she seems like she slip by right under your nose if you were an informed cop, and your chainsaw defense of your fake townread screams scum to me.

Why'd you vote Nora?

[Shoshin]

I highly doubt that you can read Noraa, her friendliness is NAI, she seems like she slip by right under your nose if you were an informed cop, and your chainsaw defense of your fake townread screams scum to me.

This feels like too much justification for voting me, but maybe you believe it. Not sure.

[Shoshin]

I could take a few guesses on who. Not sure why anyone would want to imitate them, though.

[Shoshin]

Do you always just OMGUS everyone who nudges at you?

I wouldn't call that "OMGUS," I'd probably have a similar reaction if ABR voted someone else that way.

[Shoshin]

That said, scum tend to vote me a lot more than town. It happens almost every game.

[Shoshin]

why is it scum though, outside of meta experience?

I didn't say it was scum. The question is why you read unwnd as town for voting me.

[Shoshin]

What're your reads, Nora?

[Shoshin]

Datisi improved a bit since I played with them.

[Shoshin]

Datisi's posting yesterday seemed fake.
VOTE: Datisi

I was also thinking this.

[Shoshin]

What're your reads?

[Shoshin]

SirCake, why you vote me?

[Shoshin]

VPB, what're your concerns about me?

[Shoshin]

shoshin, the "you wanna talk about it" was aimed at you too.

My silence was your answer.

[Shoshin]

I take back my town read on Nora.

[Shoshin]

You played with me before, SirCake. What's different this game?

[Shoshin]

I take back my town read on Nora.

why?

She doesn't seem to care what happens.

[Shoshin]

VPB, what're your concerns about me?

You're coasting and asking surface level questions to look busy.

I understand why you say this -- I get this in my games a lot -- but it's just how I play. The questions aren't as surface level as they look, and if you take a look at my town games, you'll see it's part of how I find scum. These seemingly innocuous questions have caught a lot of scum. I believe they're effective & efficient precisely because they seem harmless.

[Shoshin]

However, the problem here is there was really almost no content in the game when you started doing this. You can't catch scum in the RVS stage like that because there aren't any interactions to check the results against, nor does it move the game forward. That's why it comes across as fake to me.

I wasn't here during RVS & I disagree about content levels. I asked your reads at a point where there was enough information to start forming meaningful thoughts, and I wanted a clear record so that I could evaluate progression later. You interested me because you were actively leading discussion but offering no actual insight into what you were thinking, & also you're an unknown player to me so I don't have a clear sense how to read you yet.

I think my early reads had more depth than people realize, I just didn't talk about my reasons. This was intentional -- when possible, I try not to give reasons because (a) I'm not worried about town-telling, I'll eventually be obvtown, and (b) I prefer to keep scum in the dark so that I can test their reasoning. Again, this has worked well for me.

[Shoshin]

You played with me before, SirCake. What's different this game?

remind me when? they all blend together

We played a couple games but it was over a year ago. My takeaway was that you were a very scummy towny, and I correctly read you both times. I played exactly like this, & and you didn't scumread me in those games. One of the games waa the FORTNIGHT game where half the players were playing this way, and they were all town. It's scum who tend to over explain what they're doing -- scum like to leave a record justifying all their behaviors. What I'm doing is not scummy, neither for me nor in general.

[Shoshin]

Leading is the wrong word. You had presence.

[Shoshin]

I guess I'll ignore SirCake for now.

[Shoshin]

Nora, you know that my reads are very good as town. I'm the sort of player you BoP before lynching. Why don't you care if I'm lynched?

[Shoshin]

Okay I'd been feeling sus on shoshin for being OMGUSy but this very much isn't and I actually like these posts a bit

Why would you suspect me for OMGUS?

[Shoshin]

shoshin, the "you wanna talk about it" was aimed at you too.

My silence was your answer.

VOTE: shoshin

I don't understand the motivation for voting here. Do you think I'm scum for avoiding this conversation? Or are you voting me because you want me to "talk about it"? Or what?

[Shoshin]

VPB, I addressed your concerns about me. You're voting me for things that I always do as town. Is there some reason you think my meta doesn't apply in this game?

[Shoshin]

IV, why is Datisi town?

[Shoshin]

I responded to your questions, ABR. You didn't respond to mine. It's also NAI, as I ignore dumb questions all the time as town. In fact, I answer questions more as scum so that I don't ruffle any feathers.

I understand that you think my reads are mechanical, but there's more depth to them than you're suggesting, & either way they were early reads based on limited information. I also think you're just wrong about this type of thinking being scummy -- lots of players think about the game this way.

[Shoshin]

ABR's obvious scum when scum, not too worried about him.

Based off of what game?

I don't remember specific names. I talked about you with RC once, we both agreed you were easy to read based on certain tells.

[Shoshin]

This isn't an answer.

That was a response, & it's more than I do in most of my town games. Is there some reason you're ignoring meta evidence?

[Shoshin]

You're voting me for things that aren't scummy, and a simple meta dive would prove what I'm saying. Self-awareness is irrelevant. This is how I play as town. If you think I'm lying, check it. There's nothing else I can say on this.

[Shoshin]

If you're town, ABR, you're embarrassing yourself right now.

[Shoshin]

I'm waiting for DV & Icon to join the game. Both are at least somewhat familiar with my meta & should confirm what I'm saying about my play. The fact that Gamma & Nora aren't helping me out more is concerning. They're currently my top suspects, though I'm not sure. I'd imagine at least one of the votes on me is coming from scum, but I find it difficult to sort through that when all the votes are this bad. Datisi votes me because I didn't want to talk about his fake-feeling posts, and SirCake/VPB/ABR vote me for things I do every game as town.

[Shoshin]

How is your town playstyle different from your scum playstyle? This doesn't seem particularly hard to fake.

Being easy to fake doesn't mean it's not how I play as town. I'm best sorted via BoP. There's clear differences in my town & scum play, mostly related to motivation (I absolutely hate playing as scum & it shows), but your best bet is just BoP. My reads are very good as town, and I usually have the game solved by D2, sometimes D1.

[Shoshin]

If you're town, ABR, you're embarrassing yourself right now.

town in this position usually at least suspect me to be scum btw

I'm waiting to see if you check meta & reevaluate. I expect you to reevaluate my alignment if you're town.

[Shoshin]

ABR, you need to look at my town games, not my scum games. This is just confirmation bias at this point. Who would you suspect if you assume I'm town? Put yourself in my shoes for a second.

[Shoshin]

Gamma, why would you suspect me for OMGUS?

[Shoshin]

Because you seemed defensive as soon as you came in.

Huh? Where?

[Shoshin]

Being easy to fake doesn't mean it's not how I play as town. I'm best sorted via BoP.

I don't want to sort people through BoP because sometimes reads will be good and other times not as much. Unless you're saying that you can nail scum 100%, this doesn't do much for me.

If you don't want to use BoP, use meta. You'll find that I catch multiple scum in every game, & despite lots of pressure sometimes for the same dumb reasons as this game, I'm fairly obvtown long before LYLO.

[Shoshin]

The epitome of bad scumhunting technique: ABR decides to check my scum games for evidence that I'm scum, instead of looking at my town games to check if these behaviors are AI for me.

[Shoshin]

discrediting people who vote you by implying they’re scum

I didn't say anyone was scummy for voting me. I said that voting me during RVS isn't reason to read someone as town. I was questioning your thought process, not the person who voted me. Why would voting me be towny? It still doesn't make sense to me.

[Shoshin]

Attacking ABR’s vote on you by calling it over justified but also not commuting to pushing him, while also kinda shading him (“but maybe you believe it, not sure” reads as quite condescending imo).

I don't have the best view of ABR's approach to the game, that's true. But I don't see how this was "defensive." It's just sorting out why someone's voting me.

[Shoshin]

I'm worrying about shoshin being scum atm but this wagon is far too rushed. I need to see a scum tell from her. I'm coming close to calling her scum due to her lack of reads.
I'm p sure town!her normally has a few reads by now.

Not always, I often sheep someone on D1, unless it's an easy game where I have a lot of certainty about who the scum are. I don't push lynches I'm uncertain about, and I'm still sorting this game & waiting for DV/Icon.

[Shoshin]

@Nora

I think unwnd & midway are town. I'm currently sorting my wagon but unsure about these players. Datisi's probably town who voted me out of frustration. VPB/ABR/SirCake are just ignoring my meta to push my lynch, & I'll know more about their alignment based on how they play the rest of this day out. I'd expect any self-respecting townie to actually check my meta claims, or at least give weight to players who know me (you, Gamma, DV, and Icon) when they tell them that this is just how I play as town. VPB strikes me as the most reasonable of the bunch, so I'd suspect if he doesn't reevaluate before this day ends. I think I'll be able to read IV if he answers my question about his town read on Datisi & based on play later. At the moment, there's not more to say because a lot of my reads turn on how these players behave as the day progresses.

I'm also reconsidering Gamma's alignment. I thought his play didn't make much sense earlier, but there's actually some logic to it that fits Gamma's style. He's leaning town for defending me a bit, though I expect a lot more before day ends.

[Shoshin]

I'm about 99% certain I'll be able to read Iconeum when he gets into the game. I also feel fairly good about reading DV, considering I did a pretty extensive meta dive on him in the past, plus DV's great as town. So it's going to help a lot when they get into the game.

[Shoshin]

Peta's play has been underwhelming so far, but it's Thanksgiving weekend, so I'm hesitant to scum read players based solely on their level of engagement.

[Shoshin]

My Noraa-Cakez-unwnd townblock still exists fyi

Why aren't I town yet?

[Shoshin]

The townread on me just because I'm not voting her doesn't make sense.

This isn't why I'm town reading you. It's not helpful when people make assumptions about my reads. ABR did the same thing.

[Shoshin]

You've pretty much told me nothing and you can't seriously think that scum are just lining up to kill you?

This isn't at all what I said.

[Shoshin]

You seemed very confident towards Dat in your ability to have right reads but this doesn't seem confident to me at all? Why even make those statements to him? You kept claiming how your reads are awesome and that made it valid for you to be trusted and in terms not voted, but yet your own defense is meta and even at L-2 you're not willing to commit if scum are pushing you.

I think degree of certainty is a large part of developing accurate reads because you need to be able to reevaluate weak reads. I don't currently have lots of certainty about any reads, especially since two players who I most feel confident reading are completely absent. As soon as I start getting more solid reads on players I know well, it's easier to solve the rest of the game. I also need to look at how my wagon develops over time, in response to new information.

[Shoshin]

Please show me that the claims you made to Dat are true and not merely something that you put up on the spot because you're increasingly nervous about the presentation of your posts, not the content

This statement is laughable.

[Shoshin]

I actually facepalmed at this

You're going to facepalm when you reread & realize you're mistaking me for Nora. Again, I didn't scumread anyone for voting me. I scumread Gamma for supporting an RVS vote on me, but I dropped that when his explanation re: gumption made sense.

[Shoshin]

Why did you say this when from what I can see you never stopped having a scumread on him

I said I found his vote on Nora scummy, and he never answered my inquiry on that topic. I didn't say I scumread ABR as a whole -- I'm still working on this read. That said, even if I scumread him, I'm going to constantly consider whether I'm wrong. This is how you get better reads -- being willing to reevaluate and admit you were wrong before.

[Shoshin]

All the things they suspect me of, DV, was stuff that people suspected me of in Errant's game a while back, so I was hoping you'd remember some of that.

[Shoshin]

I haven't read all of unwnd's posts properly but I get a very "misdirected town" vibe

I agree on this.

[Shoshin]

Your play here is actually a bit different from what I remember of you from that game. I also think I remember hardcore thinking you were mafia only to change my mind before the end?

You were one of the few players to town me most of the game. The scum went after me intensely, though, and we luckily were able to lynch them instead of me. It was a fun game, one of my first on the site so it really stuck with me.

[Shoshin]

ah, that wouldn't be a reason for me to townread you though imo

And yes. I don't want people to town read me based on meta, I want them to stop calling my typical behaviors scummy when they're just my way of playing.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, in a hypothetical scenario that scum were merely on your wagon because the narrative driven thus far has lead them to think it's an easy wagon, who would be scum? Who are the people on your wagon (or have reasons) to be there are the most suspect?

I think the best way to sort players on my wagon is to see how they respond when I address their concerns. This has worked very well in the past for me, so I still don't want to commit any reads yet. That said, I already mentioned that Datisi was likely town frustrated at my silence. I also hinted that I'm suspicious of VPB/ABR for continuing to vote me despite the meta evidence. These are weak reads, & as I said, I'm still sorting. I'm not at the point where I'm ready to push one of them yet -- and you'll know when I feel like I've caught scum (and that moment will come, don't worry).

[Shoshin]

I know some people consider my behavior scummy from past experience. Those people are wrong.

[Shoshin]

Btw unwnd, I don't worry too much about getting mislynched, I've been in this situation a lot. It's usually the scum who end up dying, and I believe in my fellow townies enough to eventually find the truth. I put a lot of faith in collective intelligence of town.

[Shoshin]

VOTE: ABR

[Shoshin]

Because ABR leads with conviction

I don't think that's town indicative for ABR, btw. One of his strength as scum is having a good sense of how aggressive he can be.

[Shoshin]

Why not?

[Shoshin]

So the whole game is against me except DV? I'm not wasting my time, don't even know why I came back to this hopeless site.

I'm guessing Nora doesn't want to look stupid for calling me town & then have me flip scum. She cares more about her ego than actually solving the game. It's possible the same applies for Gamma, though I think there's a chance he's just scum here. I don't know and I don't have the time to solve this right now.

Datisi, please unvote before you leave.

[Shoshin]

Scum ABR has hammered town in exactly this position before, so he better not do it.

[Shoshin]

If people give me room by unvoting, I'll address your concerns and have time to solve the game. Don't rush this please.

[Shoshin]

I have a lot of stuff to address so this will take time. I'll get to it later tonight.

[Shoshin]

you have 9/13 players who expressed it was OK to elim you, if you don't sense the time is now for you to full claim so we can move on with our lives, IDK what to tell you.

If you had read my games at all, you'd know I fakeclaim as town, ABR. Last time I was at L-1 as town, I fakeclaimed cop. Don't know why you think this is helpful in my case, because it's not.

[Shoshin]

Why not do this before instead of when you're at L-1, You kept saying things like 'ill wait for DV/Ice before I solve' but you've got a mountain of content you're choosing to not see

Even then, Dv posted

Why do you hrsitate

What are you talking about?

[Shoshin]

the point of pressure is to not give room, to force scum into making a quick decision, not giving them time to fabricate a fakeclaim and get feedback from their buddies

This is just bad play.

[Shoshin]

Nora, please ignore ABR. He's an example of how you shouldn't play.

[Shoshin]

Datisi, please unvote, I'd like to have a conversation with you about the game.

[Shoshin]

No shoshin will feel extreme pressure with ABR off wagon. my vote is spiritually there to give her some room.

This kind of pressure is not helping me to scumhunt, so I don't know what makes you think it's a helpful thing.

[Shoshin]

Nora, please ignore ABR. He's an example of how you shouldn't play.

quick question for you : do you think you can escape today without having to claim yes or no?

If I'm at L-1, I'm not playing this game. Town can live with the consequences of their actions.

[Shoshin]

Shoshin can you just claim and then do whatever else you want to do?

I recommend you take a look at the Cats game to understand that this claiming stuff isn't helpful. That's a game where I was put at L-1 as town and fakeclaimed. I can also refer you to other examples. Point is, do you want me to fakeclaim? Or to keep quiet?

[Shoshin]

Claims shouldn't dictate what you do. I'm not playing that game. If this town wants to do that, then I'm not wasting my time trying to solve this. It's a hopeless game.

[Shoshin]

Unwnd, you need to give me time. I'm on my phone & haven't had time to sit down properly read the game. It's Thanksgiving weekend. I'll have time tonight. Please be patient & unvote. I don't want to feel stressed out all day on my phone, this isn't worth it for me.

[Shoshin]

I'm in mountain time & will get to this later than that, Gamma. You, more than anyone, should realize I'm town. Your threats are more reason for me to just site flake. Awful play on your part of you're town.

[Shoshin]

I don't think scum just "whoops" hammers you here Shoshin, it'd certainly look terrible for them in the long run

You have time, lots of time. I just feel like you're biding it. At the very least, why did you decide ABR was the person you were going to vote out of everyone else who has contributed to your wagon? I again don't feel like this is a position he makes as scum.

I've seen too many lolhammers, and ABR certainly will hammer if given the chance.

[Shoshin]

Fuck off, Nora. Whoever the town is, you're about to kill off your best player without even giving me a chance. I'm not playing this until you stop pressuring me & let me read the game in peace.

[Shoshin]

Okay, fine. I'm a cop.

[Shoshin]

Yep, this is why I don't claim.

[Shoshin]

Fine, I'm not a cop. I'm a doctor.

[Shoshin]

I'll link you three games later where I fakeclaimed cop as town at L-1. It's an obvious fakeclaim.

[Shoshin]

Nora, I strongly believe claims don't matter & are a distraction. This whole conversation is a distraction. I'm done with this. If I'm alive later & feel comfortable enough to dive into the game, then I'll address your concerns more in depth and try to solve this. I'm leaving for now.

[Shoshin]

This game reminds me of everything I dislike about this site.

I'm sorry to DV if he's town because he's a great player. The rest of you are awful.

[Shoshin]

My voters never gave me a chance.

[Shoshin]

I told you I fakeclaim as town. I didn't hide this fact.

[Shoshin]

Gamma's responsible for rushing this.

[Shoshin]

I was voted out because you rushed my lynch, Gamma. Why didnt you even give me time? I'm a human being, when people rush the game and don't even let me play, I'm going to get upset

[Shoshin]

what the fuck i didn't even get to post

This is exactly my point. These people have no patience and literally excluded a bunch of ppl from the game, during Thanksgiving when ppl are busy. It's aggravating as hell.

[Shoshin]

Ok. I'll help you push this wagon thru. the resistance to this wagon is plenty and it gives me pause.

what resistance
it got to L-1 in less than 24 hours

Seriously. Not even a counter wagon. A bunch of players didn't even get to weigh in. A joke of a game.

[Shoshin]

I was voted out because you rushed my lynch, Gamma. Why didnt you even give me time? I'm a human being, when people rush the game and don't even let me play, I'm going to get upset

I gave AN EXPLICIT TIMESTAMP. You could have politely told me to loosen up, but instead you got personal.

I didn't get personal? I told you when I would post, and that I was upset that you guys were rushing this game.

[Shoshin]

I was voted out because you rushed my lynch, Gamma. Why didnt you even give me time? I'm a human being, when people rush the game and don't even let me play, I'm going to get upset

Try honesty next time champ

I was completely honest. I told you I fakeclaim as town. And then I fakeclaimed.and I told you it was a fakeclaim. Where's the dishonesty?

[Shoshin]

yeah she was obnoxious but that doesn't make her scum
since when are PLs a good outcome on day 1???

i dont care about her personality, she was completely untrustworthy and incompetent

Blame the victim.

[Shoshin]

ABR's a sociopath, we all know that. But all you townies who followed him are just rushing things for no reason.

And Gamma, I called out everyone voting me.

[Shoshin]

You called me out explicitly. That wasn’t cool, I am nowhere NEAR the only one involved. But I was the one who held your life in my hands, so you had to slam me. You essentially did what I did in Cinder Blocks against Titus.

Yeah, cause I'm town. I guess I was hoping you'd see that as town. Scum me doesn't alienate players like this. This game was hopeless. I never even had a chance to read the game closer and scumhunt. There's no world where this is justified behavior on your part or anyone else in the game. Yes, I'm human, I have emotions, I'm sorry if I was mean, but that doesn't justify killing me without giving me time -- you were supposed to be someone defendj game and you turned on me before I said anything to you, saying you want my wagon to play out. The whole game was against me for nothing and you were okay with that ...

[Shoshin]

Don't follow my reads btw. I never even had a chance to read this properly

[Shoshin]

Shoshin, I still stand by my thoughts

Please don't fakeclaim
If the game is frustrating you, step back for a sec

I stand by mine. I was honest this game about everything. You let this happen. Don't just blame victim, maybe reevaluate what you did.

[Shoshin]

It was a policy lynch, then? That's what you all saying now? What a joke of a game.

[Shoshin]

My read accuracy alone is worth waiting until I post reads, which is all I asked for. You couldn't even do that.