Open 710: MKUltra - Foreign Spies Win!

[springlullaby]

Beefster: The things he thinks are scummy are actually fairly consistent, and his reads reevaluation reads genuine. I powerlynched Beefster literally last multiball game, and either he's actively making an effort to not play exactly the same, or he's just not scum here. Constantly changing trajectory heavily implies town. Not_Mafia vote is actively pro-town.

Nope, still not scummy. I think it looks like TD reviewed his case on Beefster (and everyone else for that matter) before replacing out. I don't think scum would have done that, why go to the trouble and put a target on themselves for potential inconsistency? What scum TD would have to gain from doing that? I think it's just a genuine read.
Why am I seemingly the only one seeing that?

My read stand.

[springlullaby]

Even though I don't particularly like Mikan's posting style. ^

[skitter30]

I'd seriously love an explanation on that Mikan town read bro

Can you explain how you got these partners?

Sky_Paladin - scum / not with Mikan
Sesq - town
Mikan Tsumiki - scum / Most sure about this one, pretty sure partnered with aneninen based on ISO. If anyone cares I can go into further detail here.
skitter30 - not sure
GuyInFreezer - town
Springlullaby - not sure

[skitter30]

springlullaby is ice and tried to frame me

Is this accurate:

You said you would kill ane, and you're saying that since ane was fire mafia who died to ice mafia, the ice mafia is trying to frame you as having performed the kill?

I guess I'm a little skeptical of spring deliberately trying to frame you since she started pushing you before you said that and didn't bring up the ane death until you did.

I dislike the following though:

Sesq, whereas I was scum I wouldn't see the point of your "gambit". Me being town just make me go wut about your reasoning. I have zero control over NK's so what you are saying is akin to me saying, "yeah sesq is scum who killed Aneninen to frame me by saying that I killed Aneninem to frame him"

That kind of logic is just bad and not townie and I don't know how people are not reading it as scum. Plus the casual jokes about who you are going to NK, it's just piling up.

Yeah the logic is bad and not townie ... but I don't think it's scummy either. It's just ... bad. I don't really get why you're pushing it as being inherently scummy when it's just ???.

[skitter30]

but Technical Difficulties's #225 (IIRC) is a strong town read from my going through D1

Yeah but posting that after he asked to be replaced is kinda weird and kinda makes me think he just did it for the towncred.

Beefster was quite obviously town to me just on account of the speed of his wagon. You better bet that, esp in multiball, there will be resistance to a wagon on scum.

Yeah but the scumteams only have two players apiece so I'm not sure how much resistance that there would be.

BTW, this is actually a good post from skitter BUT it lacks a vote.

I want to vote mikan but sesq isn't on it and I know that a lot of people are interested in it and I don't want the day to end just yet by a lolvote.

How do you explain the read change between 167 and 225, where TD goes from scum!beefster to town!beefster? That's a full 180 there.

Tbf, two different hydra heads wrote those two different posts, so idk if that's necessarily scummy.

Whose alt/hydro is Mikan? It occupes to me it was larking or rp'ing or something.

Yeah it's a rp alt of alisae

[skitter30]

I kinda think that we probably want to lynch the fire mafia today so that we don't have two kills tonight.

GIF, what do you think about this?

[GuyInFreezer]

I kinda think that we probably want to lynch the fire mafia today so that we don't have two kills tonight.

GIF, what do you think about this?

Guess that's optimal.
I have no leads on the fire one though.

[skitter30]

I kinda think that we probably want to lynch the fire mafia today so that we don't have two kills tonight.

GIF, what do you think about this?

Guess that's optimal.
I have no leads on the fire one though.

Then I guess I think it's probably suboptimal for you to want a Mikan lynch today given that you strongly think they're partners with sky.

[Sesq]

fair but "scum flailing" is the exact mafia equivalent of "you're just salty bro" and there is no way to unsee it, therefore it's always funny

you being an old player makes sense because older players tend to read based off draconian shit that does not matter

i have a history of being weird and really unplaceable

the best scum read ever done on me was when i was town, which was interesting

for clarity's sake, it wasnt a gambit until after i made the ane nk joke. i realized it could be. got excited at the aspect of doing something kind of useful and got carried away

also i already made a reads list, if i didn't i'm not doing it again

[Sesq]

as for mikan wagon, i dont' care i dont care i dont care i dont caare town

[Sky_Paladin]

I can't believe nobody has done this yet.

Day 1

RedFlavor (7)

-

Kop

, GuyInFreezer,

Not_Mafia

, Sesq,

Beefster

,

Hawk

, Mikan Tsumiki

Not_Mafia

(2) -

Tatl and Tael

, Sky_Paladin

Beefster (2)

- Iconeum, skitter30
Iconeum (1) - Mumble
Mikan Tsumiki (1) -

RedFlavor

Day 2

Beefster (6) - Not_Mafia

, Mikan Tsumiki, Sky_Paladin, Iconeum,

Aneninen

, Sesq
Sesq (2) - springlullaby,

Beefster

Mikan Tsumiki (1) - GuyInFreezer

Not Voting: skitter30

~~~

This was the vote tally right near the end of day 2, when there were two wagons -

Beefster (3) - Not_Mafia,

skitter30, Mikan Tsumiki
skitter30 (3) - Iconeum, Sky_Paladin,

Beefster

Mikan Tsumiki (2) - GuyInFreezer, Sesq

Not Voting:

Hawk

, springlullaby

The players that switched to Beefster were myself, Icon, and Sesq. Skitter switched off. I don't think this is really interesting.

I am interested in late day 1, because that's when we had Hawk up for lynch.

Hawk (4)

-

Not_Mafia, Beefster

, Sesq, Mikan Tsumiki

Not_Mafia (2)

-

Tatl and Tael

, Sky_Paladin
Iconeum (2) - Mumble,

RedFlavor

Beefster (1) - Iconeum
RedFlavor (1) -

Kop

Mikan Tsumiki (1) -

Hawk

Not Voting: skitter30, GuyInFreezer

~~~

So I am interested especially in people who found a reason to vote not!Hawk, because those players might be the other Fire scum, and I agree that our strat should be finish off the red team so there's one less night kill a time.

The outlier there is that Mikan and Hawk are counter-voting. Was this a scum bus?

It was at this point that GiF suddenly pushed for a RedFlavor wagon. For all of day 2 I didn't think this was interesting because the way I remembered it was that Beefster was up for lynch. But actually looking at the vote count, I was mistaken. Skitter had also been voting Hawk and empty-unvoted right before this vote count had gone out; she switched to Beefster.

Icon in particular put some weight into deciding between the RedFlavor and Hawk wagons:
Hawk:367 summed up as:

There's a few more posts that follow where he goes cookoo against players who are voting him, actually I read them as frustrated town and not as caught scum.
I'd say revisit Hawk D2/3 if he's still alive.

RedFlavor:368 summed up as:

I'd vote Red over Hawk 100% of the time here.

Considering we have a green!flip on Red and a red flip on Hawk, I'm concerned.

Icon then attacks Beefster's Hawk vote, highlights Mikan/Beefster/Red as his picks, and narrows his lynch options down to Red/Beefster. Both slots who have flipped green.

~~

After this, Sesq consolidates to Mikan. Not_Mafia follows, and then Sesq switches again, Hawk countervotes, Mikan countervotes, and Tatl and Tael hammers.

~~

Out of this, the only votes I'm really concerned over are Icon's votes and his preference for lynching not!Hawk, and the Mikan/Hawk countervote early on.
I'm conflicted about GiF starting a wagon. Earlier I said there was no way that scum!GiF would stick his neck out for scum!Beefster because why would scum do it. But now we actually have a scum flip and given the timing I'm now wondering if that is what happened.

So I think my candidates for fire mafia are Mikan, GiF or Icon. I probably want to lynch amongst these three unless somebody comes up with something better elsewhere.

GiF is kind of my original town read so that's my least preferred lynch. I am interested in seeing him expand on his theory that Mikan and I are a team, and I'm kind of curious to see if Mikan will flip red what happens then.

I think I'm most interested in other players looking at Icon's posts re: Hawk/Red/Beefster as highlighted in this posts while I grab some zzz's.

[Sesq]

yeah, gif has been feeling kind of shifty in reflection

i was trying to build i case but i fell asleep and woke up at a transit center twenty miles from my house so i decided it wasn't a good idea

[Iconeum]

VOTE: mikan

[Mikan Tsumiki]

U-Uh
I would like to announce that I deduced that all of the scum is in {Spring, GiF, Icon}
I-I will explain when I finish Umineko (Probably going to be on ch8 by the time I go to sleep, so I expect to explain on the 9th or 10th)
S-Sorry for the wait!

[Mikan Tsumiki]

W-When I replace in on my main I will explain everything.


And I mean everything.

But not before then.

S-Sorry if you want my reads before then, please pin me to the wall!

[springlullaby]

Alright Mikan, you sign up with Mika, you post with Mikan.
You can just drop the RP. I'm not keeping track of your larking.

MOD: Please enforce this rule. It's annoying to keep track of people who play under different account in the same game. There are enough replacement to keep track of already.

[Alisae]

@Mod playing on this account for now so repping out of Mikan to play on this.

Just for you
I would rep in and out and in just for you but I don't want to torture the mod she's my friend.

If you don't like it leave.

Oh whats that?
You have an opinion?
Here is my opinion about your opinion:
I don't care.

For all I care you're furniture.

[Alisae]

springlullaby is ice and tried to frame me

i said i was going to nightkill ane and he's been pushing me before and after on the basis of it

hasn't done anything except call me and some others scum

VOTE: springlullaby if i didnt already

would really like if you guys piled up here too

will admit the gambit fell apart more for me the more i thought about it but he's still scummy as hell

This exact post
explains how GiF is scum by the way.
From D2 and onwards with no real evaluation.
GiF has pushed the "fact" that I "supposedly" shot GiF.
GiF isn't pushing a read he's pushing a fact.
This is a way that GiF can "justify" his read.
So when I flip town, he will fall on the justification that he built up and use that as a scapegoat.

Town wants to be right. When you are pushing a fact, you are not pushing a read, therefore you are not trying to be right.
Scum wants to have solid reasoning. When you are pushing a fact, you obtain solid reasoning.

Its much more likely that Scum shot RC in attempt to pin me for shooting him after RC's twilight read on me in attempts to help score my mislynch.
Therefore, GiF's read is not a naturally formed response.

But lets look at his response.

then he's scum because he scared of me being a threat.

There is literally one person who I'm scared of as scum in this entire site.
And that's pienyan.

Never mind the fact that the play I've played this entire time is very detrimental to play as scum in multiball, if I was scum who felt threatened by you, I would've killed you over, you know, KOP, NOT_MAFIA or HAWKSLOT, no?

The anger in these two comes across as agenda based as if the goal of it was that he's trying to intimdate me or something. This isn't a naturally formed response, but one with an agenda behind it.
Plus, this second post is stupid.
Why would you ever shoot someone who has mislynch equitity?
Just lynch them.

--

Like, seriously, I literally played this way the whole time so that I can eat nightkill because I wanted out of this game ASAP.

Anger here comes across as agenda based and does not feel natural. Its agendabased anger.

[GuyInFreezer]

Of course there is the MO, a big one too: establish that I'm town and can't be scum. It is just as important when a single mislynch can endgame.

[GuyInFreezer]

I am a very self conscious player by the way, and I appeal to my own competence that i wouldn't play the game such a way that aims to eat a nightkill, and playing just that as a scum is not worth the WIFOM at all, when dying as scum like that is a borderline gamethrowing.

[GuyInFreezer]

(And this is why I like playing multiball, because being semi-provable town is easy in multiball much more than in singleball)

[Alisae]

Vote: Sesq

I haven't read the entirety of day 1 but I don't like much the mikan votes.

A)The speed of the Beefster wagon makes me think the RF lynch wasn't scumpiling;
B)Kop's iso reads as low key no content: with susp on mikan and tatl , but not enough that it looks like defensive NK. -> I guess the NK was targetting a possible low poster flying under the radar doc.
C)The Taetl iso looks like a bunch a crap I'm hard pressed to see the rhyme to that kill so won't speculated there.

> My conclusion so far is that mikan looks too juicy a target to be true and Sesq's vote isn't seemingly motivated by anything beside wagon?

Sesq: reads on all players of the game please.

This post contains nothing that is worthwile and adds to the game.
Not to mention her read on me is basicly "I'm too wolfy to be a wolf" and I don't really feel like they have a naturally formed read on me, it kinda just feels like they know I'm town.
This is a theme in their ISO btw.

Soo many words. Dear town can you make it easy for me to read you as town by cutting the bullshit and quote wars and so on out.

HEY LOOK. HEY LOOK.
YOU WANNA KNOW WHAT I SEE?
I SEE SOMEONE WHO DOESN'T WANT TO READ POSTS.
I SEE SOMEONE WHO ISN'T READING THE GAME.
GUESS WHAT?
YOU'RE GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT WALLPOSTING?
YOU'RE GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT ALT SLIPS?
YOU'RE GOING TO COMPLAIN ABOUT THE GAME NOT BEING READABLE WHEN YOU ARE

MAKING 0 ATTEMPT TO READ THE GAME AND UNDERSTAND WHY PEOPLE ARE COMING TO THE CONCLUSIONS THEY ARE COMING TO?

THEN GUESS WHAT
DON'T PLAY THE GAME IF YOU'RE GOING TO BITCH AND COMPLAIN ABOUT HOW PEOPLE ARE POSTING.

WHY ARE PEOPLE VOTING MIKAN?
WHY ARE PEOPLE VOTING MIKAN?
IDK, HERE IS A SUGGESTION
IT'LL IMPROVE YOUR PLAY BY 10%.
HAVE YOU CONSIDERED MAKING AN ATTEMPT TO FIGURE OUT WHY PEOPLE ARE VOTING THE WAY THEY ARE?
OR ARE YOU JUST GOING TO BITCH AND COMPLAIN THE WHOLE GAME AND CONTINUE TO BE CLUELESS?

Soo many words. Dear town can you make it easy for me to read you as town by cutting the bullshit and quote wars and so on out.

I kinda want to unvote sesq just because it's easier to read. *sigh*

FOS Skitter for low content day 1 and lurkage now.

Mikan is

continued

Mikan is a town read for me, on account of Technical Difficulties post D1.

GIF, why are you voting Mikan?

Sorry um, lost my composure there for a bit.
Their anger about wallposting is probably coming from scum.
Their "I want to unvote sesq" seems lame and comes off as they are just forming reads on the spot.
their FoS on Skitter seems like they are just forming reads on the spot.
Spring is making no attempt to get a read on my own play because she knows I'm town.
Her asking GiF why he's voting me is just a repeated question that will never get a follow up.

--

this is gonna be mostly shoot from the hip
[snip]

This post is a huge town read for me, for clarity, to the use of image to demonstrate a very valid point and so on.
So yes, why people are voting mikan again?


Gotta go, catching up more later.

Spring is making no attempt to get a read on my own play because she knows I'm town and this read doesn't advance the gamestate in any way.
Her asking why I am getting voted is just a repeated question that will never get a follow up. If she cared she would look into it herself.

--

I didn't really have a read on Mumble. Spring's posts are really weird; I'm having a lot of trouble understanding how she's been coming to her conclusions. Spring/sesq probably isn't a thing. I don't really understand where her readlslist is coming from (especially the strong townread on Mikan)

I already answered to the Mikan slot. Mikan himself is not a townread of mine, but Technical Difficulties's #225 (IIRC) is a strong town read from my going through D1 and I'm sticking to it. I think perhaps people don't understand my reads because I replaced in and am not embroiled in tunnels of interactions. I think also people don't understand my read because I'm an old player and stuff that seem obvious to me do not seem so to you guys.

Beefster was quite obviously town to me just on account of the speed of his wagon. You better bet that, esp in multiball, there will be resistance to a wagon on scum. See my last game where I was scum and did belly dancing to avoid my

cop counterclaimed partner

being lynched, and it almost worked too.

What I really don't see is how you guys are reading Mikan as scum. Just go read 225. It's town all over.

BTW, this is actually a good post from skitter

BUT

it lacks a vote.
----------------

VOTE COUNT

RedFlavor

(7) -

Kop

,

GuyInFreezer

,

Not_Mafia

,

Sesq

,

Beefster

,

Hawk

, Mikan Tsumiki

Not_Mafia

(2) -

Tatl and Tael

, Sky_Paladin

Beefster

(2) - Iconeum,

skitter30

Iconeum

(1) -

Mumble

Mikan Tsumiki

(1) -

RedFlavor

Not Voting:

A lynch has been achieved!

Night has ended.

Flip incoming.

VOTE COUNT

Beefster

(6) -

Not_Mafia

, Mikan Tsumiki, Sky_Paladin, Iconeum,

Aneninen

+

Sesq in #607

Sesq

(2) -

springlullaby

,

Beefster

Mikan Tsumiki

(1) -

GuyInFreezer

Not Voting:

skitter30

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

--> I kinda understand how Mikan's vote don't look good. But my town read on TD is really strong.
--> THe VCA and the Ane's flip throw a wrench in my townwagon D1 theory. Though I still can see another scum on there.
--> I can see GIF being townier and Sky paladin being scummier from the VCA.
--> Sesq's vote don't look good.


----------------
Sesq, whereas I was scum I wouldn't see the point of your "gambit". Me being town just make me go wut about your reasoning. I have zero control over NK's so what you are saying is akin to me saying, "yeah sesq is scum who killed Aneninen to frame me by saying that I killed Aneninem to frame him"

That kind of logic is just bad and not townie and I don't know how people are not reading it as scum. Plus the casual jokes about who you are going to NK, it's just piling up.

Also, your vote on me has OMGUS voting all over it.

My yesterday's vote was more of a hunch but today you are flailing quite hard I believe. + Bad votes.

VOTE: SESQ

Updated read list

Scum:
Sesq
Sky
Icon

Null:
GIF
Skitter

Town:
Mikan

I'll think about fire and ice next.

Her read on me is extremely lacking in that its day 3 and there should be more then enough information to get a read off of my slot. It really doesn't feel like she's trying to sort my alignment here. And if her townread on me is so strong then it really doesn't feel like she's making any attempt to really defend my lynch, if anything it feels like she doesn't care if it goes through. Hence why I asked for a towncase, if she was town and thought I was town and had a strong townread on me, she would attempt to do everything in her power to make sure I am not the lynch today. However she's not doing that.

Her Skitter thoughts here is scum attempting to hold onto a read and doesn't come across as natural.
Her attempt at VCA honestly doesn't feel like she's making any attempt to scumhunt and form naturally formed reads.
Honestly her Sesq push honestly feels like its coming from scum.

Also her readlist is terrible and honestly just kinda feels like she's adjusting her reads as she goes.
I don't get the sense she's trying to form reads like at all, and she's probably WKing me for some kind of "towncred" that she's never going to get because no one cares.

Beefster: The things he thinks are scummy are actually fairly consistent, and his reads reevaluation reads genuine. I powerlynched Beefster literally last multiball game, and either he's actively making an effort to not play exactly the same, or he's just not scum here. Constantly changing trajectory heavily implies town. Not_Mafia vote is actively pro-town.

Nope, still not scummy. I think it looks like TD reviewed his case on Beefster (and everyone else for that matter) before replacing out. I don't think scum would have done that, why go to the trouble and put a target on themselves for potential inconsistency? What scum TD would have to gain from doing that? I think it's just a genuine read.
Why am I seemingly the only one seeing that?

My read stand.

Even though I don't particularly like Mikan's posting style. ^

Honestly the more they talk about one TD post instead of their posting overall and my posting overall makes me think she just knows I'm town, and the "I don't particularly like Mikan's posting style" bit kinda just seems like something she can use to vote me later on

[GuyInFreezer]

With that said, I'll prob have to go

@mod: V/LA for 3 days

because I'm having less and less time to pay attention in mafia games.

[Alisae]

the tl;dr is A lot of spring's post makes me think she has no interest in solving the game.
It comes across as her just making reads up on the fly and a lot of her questioning or "scumhunting" kinda just seems like to does nothing to advance the game nore does she really care about it.

When it comes to Icon, I would like to see why he thinks I'm the pigeon's partner, but I kinda just think he's scum for attempting to rush my lynch today. Like I kinda don't get why he's in such a hurry.

Everyone else can be town.

[Alisae]

oh woops I accidentally used Viomi's Red, sorry, but the truth can hurt sometimes~