Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Oxy]

Do you think that is a townie behavior?

[skitter30]

@Scioness: Is English your first language?

aside, note for self for later: oxy/scioness probably are not a team.

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started to think that I had pocketed myself for her while analyzing her read on me.

I'm getting some really bad gut pings from this but I don't know how to articulate it right now.

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Alright I understnad that, but how is it going to help eth0s solve the game? Is this meta related?

I don't know how he wants to use that info, but I don't think it's an irrelevant question. For me, it would help me figure out if someone's reads are natural - if player A is expecting a high standard of play from player B, who's relatively inexperienced, and scumreading them for not playing up to that standard, I would find that odd, and question that read. Or if player A thinks player B is experienced, but is brushing off scummy things B is doing, I would find that odd. etc, etc, etc.

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I don't like this very much at all. Similar to "wow, that sucks" after a PR gets NKed, it just seems too easy for scum to post about how hard/confusing the game is without contributing much.

Idk, it seemed kinda genuine to me, like he wasn't expecting the game to be this hard. Also he's already said he isn't paying that much attention atm cuz he's sick/busy, so I don't know why he would need to fake-contribute like that at this juncture when he has an excuse for not contributing.

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165 - kinda bleeds town imo

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I believe his thoughts on me are developing he just don't want to share them.

Is it AI if he doesn't share his thoughts on you? And if so, why?

And if you want to lynch him, why aren't you voting him? (For that matter, why aren't you voting at all?)

[Oxy]

@Scioness Sajj I just read through your ISO. You've actually never called me scum outright. In fact, in between your read list and now, you actually implied that you didn't think I was scum, as indicated in bold:

You mean I come off as smarter the this (what is this?)?

Forgive me because this is going to sound blunt, but the question you asked in 150 was a stupid question. It's possible for people to read someone's posts and still walk away undecided about a slot.

139, 144, 148 and 150 is me trying to find out why his read stayed the same. It feels like you assume everytime I ask a question I ask it becuase I'm suspecting somebody, but that's not it.

You have read 150 and had thoughts about it, has it chnaged your read on me or created an new one? I don't know but you have had an opinion you have shared with me/everybody. I understand what makes you think the way you do. Oxy has read 200 or so of my posts, he had to think something when he read them but he wouldn't tell me why his read stayed the same. I'm fine with him being undecided about my slot, but I want to know why his read stayed the same, because there is a reason it stayed the same.

VOTE: Scioness Sajj

[ofrhz]

I just spent a ridiculously long time going through Oxy v Sajj; it was hard to follow because there was so much talking over each other. From Oxy's side, part of this is understandable because Sajj's writing style is friggin hard to follow.

On the other side, Sajj makes leaping assumptions about what Oxy says and is at points putting words into his mouth. Considering this is a text-based game and figuring out what each person is trying to say is important, I generally think this is suspicious. However, Sajj's defensiveness comes off as genuine. I'm inclined to think this is a massive town v town spat at this point.

[Assemblerotws]

Vote Count 1.04

Not Voting [5]:

westen, callitwhatyouwant, Drixx, Scioness Sajj, ruru

ruru [1]:

ofrhz

Oxy [1]:

skitter30

Westen [1]:

eth0s

Scioness Sajj [1]:

Oxy

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2018-04-03 09:00:00) on

April 3, 2018

.

[Oxy]

It feels to me like Sajj is playing with the goal of not being scum read rather than playing with the goal of finding scum. Does anyone else see it that way?

[Oxy]

EBWOP: I'm looking for input on that from anyone, but I would really like to hear the thoughts of my three town reads.

[Scioness Sajj]

I can't help but notice that you're finding a lot of ways to imply that you think I'm scum without actually calling me scum.

Quotes or post numbers please, unless following numbers are what you call implying you are scum.

1)Your vote isn't on me.

It isn't. I have not build a case on you I'm not pushing for a lynch because of where I put you in my readlist.

2)In your read list you didn't call me scum, you said "need to figure out if I'm omgusing."

This is exactly what I said it is.

3)You said I would be a good vigi shot

Nah, never did.

4)When asked if you thought I was a good lynch you said "You've got my readlist."

Yup, you know where I stand.

1. @Scioness: Is English your first language?

I believe his thoughts on me are developing he just don't want to share them.

2. Is it AI if he doesn't share his thoughts on you? And if so, why?

3. And if you want to lynch him, why aren't you voting him? (For that matter, why aren't you voting at all?)

1. Nope, it's not.
2. I don't think not sharing thoughts has to be AI, but the manner he goes about it bothers me. Example in spoiler in 172, which he also ignored and went stright to scumreading me and he has found 170 to have a vote on me, but it seems like an excuse for a vote more than a reason.
3. I wasn't voting because I'm leaning town on ofrhz, I was talking with ruru and I'm fine with her/waiting on developments, you and eth0s are sick (also just started interacting with both of you) and Drixx is busy. Didn't want to vote Oxy because I felt like most of his actions can be either town or scum motivated and thought omgusing may have affect my read but now we are here and I'm still meh because it feels like he is omgusing me now?

177
In bolded I have implied that I engage on things that I think can give me informations about players and their intentions, I try to generate content. I had an impression that ofrhz thinks that when I question somebody I'm on a look out for scumsplips and that's not true.

On the other side, Sajj makes leaping assumptions about what Oxy says and is at points putting words into his mouth.

Quote examples for me, please?

[ofrhz]

139, 144, 148 and 150 is me trying to find out why his read stayed the same. It feels like you assume everytime I ask a question I ask it becuase I'm suspecting somebody, but that's not it.
You have read 150 and had thoughts about it, has it chnaged your read on me or created an new one

(Point 1)

? I don't know but you have had an opinion you have shared with me/everybody

(Point 2)

. I understand what makes you think the way you do. Oxy has read 200 or so of my posts, he had to think something when he read them but he wouldn't tell me why his read stayed the same. I'm fine with him being undecided about my slot, but I want to know why his read stayed the same, because there is a reason it stayed the same.

(Point 3)

1) No. I was townreading you before, and I'm still townreading you now. I summarized why in my previous post.
2) I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I don't think I've shared my read on you until just a few minutes ago. I have been asking you a lot of questions, because I was either trying to form a read on you or because I needed clarification.
3) Understandable.

Wanna talk about discouragment? Shall we talk about four questions I've had to ask and one trade becasue Oxy woulnd't tell me why his read on my stayed the same? And when I finally get an answer it soon after gets dissmissed with a joke about me looking for compliments.
I don't think that question, or anything I will say, would discourage Oxy. He has started with an early scumread on me and has been poking around ever since. I believe his thoughts on me are developing he just don't want to share them.

I agree, it clearly hasn't discouraged Oxy from posting lol. I was initially more concerned about other people reading the thread being discouraged. But I think I'm nitpicking at this because I don't think your purpose was to discourage people. Instead, your question in 150 seemed more passive aggressive than anything, so all's good.

165 - kinda bleeds town imo

Are you implying something here?

[ofrhz]

@Mod

, when do we get replacements? For westen and callitwhatyouwant

[Scioness Sajj]

139, 144, 148 and 150 is me trying to find out why his read stayed the same. It feels like you assume everytime I ask a question I ask it becuase I'm suspecting somebody, but that's not it.
You have read 150 and had thoughts about it, has it chnaged your read on me or created an new one

(Point 1)

? I don't know but you have had an opinion you have shared with me/everybody

(Point 2)

. I understand what makes you think the way you do. Oxy has read 200 or so of my posts, he had to think something when he read them but he wouldn't tell me why his read stayed the same. I'm fine with him being undecided about my slot, but I want to know why his read stayed the same, because there is a reason it stayed the same.

(Point 3)

1) No. I was townreading you before, and I'm still townreading you now. I summarized why in my previous post.
2) I don't understand what you're trying to say here. I don't think I've shared my read on you until just a few minutes ago. I have been asking you a lot of questions, because I was either trying to form a read on you or because I needed clarification.
3) Understandable.

1&2 - This

You have read 150 and had thoughts about it, has it chnaged your read on me or created an new one? I don't know but you have had an opinion you have shared with me/everybody. I understand what makes you think the way you do.

is an example of you cooperating with me as contrary to Oxy being all vague and secretive and making me push him to get any answers.

But I think I'm nitpicking at this because I don't think your purpose was to discourage people. Instead, your question in 150 seemed more passive aggressive than anything, so all's good.

Yeah, it might have came out of tht way out of frustration since I believe he was doing it on purpose.

[Oxy]

I don't understand what you mean about being held accountable? My words are indelible.

You have this generic gut read on me that you want to push that you can't really explain. If I were to be mislynched today and players were looking for scum on my wagon Day 2 there's nothing that they can pinpoint to you. Reasoning is important. First piece of evidence you have posted was 44 but you backed off immidiately.

I'd like for people to consider the above quote for insight into how Sajj thinks about the game. I think it is relevant that there was never anything resembling a wagon on her. There was only ever my vote.

With the above in mind, please consider the following:

need to figure out if I'm omgusing: oxy

I'd pick vig to shoot Oxy in the face.

If we are talking setup specific I'd go with vt or maybe jailkeep.

If you didn't take it well,

and 161 wasn't a joke

, were you saying that you think I should be the lynch today?

You've got my readlist.

3. I wasn't voting because I'm leaning town on ofrhz, I was talking with ruru and I'm fine with her/waiting on developments, you and eth0s are sick (also just started interacting with both of you) and Drixx is busy.

Didn't want to vote Oxy because I felt like most of his actions can be either town or scum motivated and thought omgusing may have affect my read but now we are here and I'm still meh because it feels like he is omgusing me now?

I read this last one as "Remember guys, I'm not scum reading Oxy, but his scum read on me is omgus, which everyone knows is scummy."

[Oxy]

If it wasn't clear, I'm saying I think she told us her scum game plan, and then she executed it.

[ofrhz]

Why did you want to moved the game from the state it was in?

It's not easy to form reads based on the writing of people I haven't met before, since I don't have anything to compare it to, so I wanted to try a new approach.

This didn't answer Sajj's question.

[Scioness Sajj]

If it wasn't clear, I'm saying I think she told us her scum game plan, and then she executed it.

Could you explain what my scum plan exactly is? And how have I executed it?

[Scioness Sajj]

@188 I believe she did answer my question but I will wait for another explanation.

[Oxy]

@Sajj Your plan was to push a scum read on a member of town without hard committing to the read so that after they flip town you could deny having pushed the scum read at all. Then you did just that. See 186 for examples of how you were pushing that read without committing to it.

[Scioness Sajj]

funny you mention this as my scum plan becuase in 54 where I was explaning why I want you to answer my questions (have your thoughts and reasoning 'on a paper' n the game) I have added as example exactly what you are saying is my scum plan.

btw I don't think omgusing is scummy. And you are omgusing me if you have got a scumread on me from thinking that I scum read you, which I think you did, but it seems like it's not actually a case? I don't know I'll come back to this tomorrow.

[Oxy]

funny you mention this as my scum plan becuase in 54 where I was explaning why I want you to answer my questions (have your thoughts and reasoning 'on a paper' n the game) I have added as example exactly what you are saying is my scum plan.

I know you did. That's why I quoted it in 186. Did you even read the post?

[Oxy]

If Sajj is town I will eat my avi's top hat.

[Scioness Sajj]

Alright, if you understand what I meant then tell me what scum motivation did I have to:
1) reveal my plan
2) encaurage you to share your thoughts

+ how pushing for a mislynch on D1 wins me the game?

[Oxy]

1) I think you thought no one would notice, or that you could use this wifom argument if they did. I think you also found it a convenient defense at the time. You didn't need defending at that time, of course, but you are scum so you thought you did.
2)I think you've spent most of this game trying to convince me that you're town rather than find scum, and that engaging me was part of that attempt.
+) I don't want to get into a theory crafting debate about busing vs not busing. I don't think it's a stretch to say that mislynches work toward your win con.

[ofrhz]

Quote examples for me, please?

Spoiler:

As a corollary I think it's easier for scum to find small errors in one's memory of an event, or reasoning for a case than it is to try and identify "fake" town emotions in people they KNOW are town. Town, knowing that they must find scum and working from an information disadvantage are as likely (more so, perhaps?) to make small errors

So you are saying that scum will only be after methodical mistakes?

Example of trying to put words into his mouth. I think Oxy was making a general statement but never implied it was a hard and fast rule.

You don't want to commit to a read on me, so something is stopping you?

In this entire interaction about reads, I felt like you were assuming he was doing something he wasn't. You think he's holding back his read or whatever, but he really just didn't have a read. I find that believable.

Your post 152 was actually the first time you asked him for his general conclusions (Read =/= conclusions). I think 153 was the only time he was holding back. I'm inclined to chalk this up to him being frustrated as a result of the interaction from post 144 onwards, and he gave you his conclusions right after your response. In general, Oxy seems very eager to engage with everyone except in 153, which is the main reason why I'm townreading him.

In 172 in the spoiler, where he said "because mafia is not an easy game. I don't understand what you're trying to get out of this," I think that was an earnest answer to your question.

This is just a sample, because I don't want to go through that entire shitshow of a 1v1 again.

[ofrhz]

@188 I believe she did answer my question but I will wait for another explanation.

I was really looking for ruru's comments on the state of the game.

[skitter30]

I just spent a ridiculously long time going through Oxy v Sajj; it was hard to follow because there was so much talking over each other. From Oxy's side, part of this is understandable because Sajj's writing style is friggin hard to follow.

On the other side, Sajj makes leaping assumptions about what Oxy says and is at points putting words into his mouth. Considering this is a text-based game and figuring out what each person is trying to say is important, I generally think this is suspicious. However, Sajj's defensiveness comes off as genuine. I'm inclined to think this is a massive town v town spat at this point.

So, I noticed this dynamic as well. Namely, Scioness appears to be misreading some of Oxy's posts and is coming to conclusions I don't think he intended. Once I noted that, the next thing to do is to figure out if she's doing that on purpose. From a few of Scioness' posts, I had gotten the vibe that English may not be her first language, which she has since confirmed (@Scioness: your English is quite excellent; I only picked up on it cuz I was looking for it in this context). So, I think a lot of the misreadings/misunderstandings might be stemming from there. I don't think she's doing it maliciously, or is trying to be difficult to understand. I think a lot of this thing comes down to the two of them not communicating with each other well, and that they are talking past each other and are just in general misreading the other's posts.

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@mod:

btw, you have eth0s both voting and not-voting.

Fixed.

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It feels to me like Sajj is playing with the goal of not being scum read rather than playing with the goal of finding scum. Does anyone else see it that way?

Not particularly? Where are you getting that from?

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2. I don't think not sharing thoughts has to be AI, but the manner he goes about it bothers me. Example in spoiler in 172, which he also ignored and went stright to scumreading me and he has found 170 to have a vote on me, but it seems like an excuse for a vote more than a reason.

Is it accurate to say that you think he's deliberately ignoring you? IE that you don't inherently have a problem with someone not sharing thoughts, but you dislike it when people avoid direct questions, which is what you think he's doing?

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Are you implying something here?

That's just a phrase I use when I think a post (and/or player) is super townie and just comes from like an obviously town mindset.
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If it wasn't clear, I'm saying I think she told us her scum game plan, and then she executed it.

I don't understand the conclusion you're drawing. Specifically, what's her scum plan?

Nm, I read 191. No, I'm not particularly getting that vibe. I think that a lot of her posts are indicating frustration with you and that she'd like to remove you from the game because of that (hence vig shot), not that she wants to remove you because she necessarily finds you scummy. In that context, I actually find the fact that she hasn't voted you to be kinda townie cuz it means she's trying to figure out if her read on you stems from frustration or from genuinely finding you scummy.

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196 - point 1 feels kinda reachy to me?