Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Oxy]

Could you please explain the case for Ofrhz being scum iff oxy=scum

[Oxy]

because from my pov that logic would confirm ofrhz = town, which would be useful. I don't get the argument tho

[pinturicchio]

because from my pov that logic would confirm ofrhz = town, which would be useful. I don't get the argument tho

3 am here, let me do it tomorrow. I'm curious, though: why would ofrhz be town confirmed?

[Oxy]

because I'm town and if Ofrhz is only scum when I am scum, then Ofrhz must be town. Like I said, the confirm only works with the 100% knowledge that I am town, but it turns out that I am in that advantageous position. ;P

But I don't understand either your argument or Drixx's or what post makes the link???

[Oxy]

Don't try to sort him too early, it's not going to work. He hasn't engaged enough also. I'm townleaning him because of reasons I will discuss when it's appropiate

What is this? Paraphrasing: "Don't try to read Eth0s because he hasn't engaged enough to base a read on. I am reading him town." I know you said, "reasons" but what?

[eth0s]

Look I'm sorry and hate to be that guy but I have just been so busy. I am finally off work and school tomorrow so I WILL have some meaningful content soon. Would do it now but alcohol may be clouding my judgement. I will say that I am liking Oxy's posts a lot and think he is probably night kill target #1 (assuming he isn't scum).

[Oxy]

Look I'm sorry and hate to be that guy but I have just been so busy. I am finally off work and school tomorrow so I WILL have some meaningful content soon. Would do it now but alcohol may be clouding my judgement. I will say that I am liking Oxy's posts a lot and think he is probably night kill target #1 (assuming he isn't scum).

@Pinturicchio You said that "a shitty read" is a scum tell from Eth0s. You believe I am obv scum. Eth0s thinks I'm not just townie, but so townie as to be a probable N1 kill. You have said that you are "townleaning him because of reasons."

Please make sense of these contradictions.

[Oxy]

and

I already convinced myself

that Oxy is scum

I don't like the phrasing of this at all. First, it implies the same sort of early read on someone that he calls me scummy for. Second, "to convince" is a strange verb to use when describing how one comes to have a read. Scummy posts "ping" a town's radar. Town "notices", "picks up on", "catches", and "finds" scum clues. All of these describe the instantaneous nature of realization. Scum, knowing that they must deceive others, must "convince" themselves that others will find an argument believable.

Conclusion? Ruru was REALLY gamesolvey at the start and it made sense

I also did not like the RQS being thrown in after the game had gotten rolling. Waiting on big reveal.

I don't really understand why you don't think his posts come from scum. Can you explain again?

I don't understand this either. It feels like scum!sajj feels forced to keep her non-read on me. I have no reason to believe Sajj thinks this way, but it feels like one of those people who believes consistency in reads is the ultimate town-tell and has awful read progression as a result.

I know Sajj has posed questions for me, but I'm just going to ignore them for the moment. My town reads remain unconvinced that she is scum, and that is enough to give me pause at this point. Don't misunderstand me. Sajj is still my #1 lynch today. I just don't think it's pro-town to continue going back and forth with her right now.

Readlist:

Spoiler:

Very Town

Ofrhz

Mostly Town

Skitter30
Ruru

Town Lean

Null

Drixx

Scum Lean

Pinturicchio
Eth0s

Very Scum

Scioness Sajj

[Scioness Sajj]

I originally thought this was about the same subject as the previous paragraph, but now I see I misread it. I'm implying that refusing to answer questions at all would be really scummy, but it's not what you did.

Oh no, I have made the dashes to try to separate topics.

It's that sometimes your first response when questioned is to ask a question, not to answer the question.

1. Do you find it scummy? If so, why?
2. Your starting point seems to be that I don't answer them at all. Something has changed or you were just vague?

Hmm, how did my stance change? I'm not sure what you're asking.

The bolded parts go together.
In 205 you've made an observation but didn't express your thoughts.
In 230 you adjust that observation and say you would be lynching me right now if I was actually doing what you said I was doing in 205.
But in 227 you said you would lynch me as a last resort.

I just don't follow how you go from one thing to another.

[Scioness Sajj]

I don't really understand why you don't think his posts come from scum. Can you explain again?

I think he genuinely isn’t aware how certain things make him look when he thinks he is right, yet he knows he needs town to listen to him to get things he believes in done, so he will occasionally lamist and talk to you the way he does (or answer your questions for me).
It can be either way alignment wise but I believe his tunnel is ego driven and he is generally just stubborn, I don’t think it’s premediadated. All his reads form from the things on the surface, his confscum on D1 is his gut read and he is kissing up to you because of respect he has gained from that game he has read. My rationale is all of this is too shallow to be faked.
His case on me has gave me a sample big enough to draw conclusions about his motives and playstyle when it’s pointed towards me. I’m sort of on a fence still but there are more things that make me lean town. There is no reason to push this further in the gamstate we are in. I’d rather poke other people and wait for eth0s and second replacement and watch how Oxy interacts with others.
I also think I see what Drixx and Pin are talking about with {oxy, ruru, ofrhz} and I’m much more interested in development on this matter than just solving Oxy’s slot.

[pinturicchio]

Don't try to sort him too early, it's not going to work. He hasn't engaged enough also. I'm townleaning him because of reasons I will discuss when it's appropiate

What is this? Paraphrasing: "Don't try to read Eth0s because he hasn't engaged enough to base a read on. I am reading him town." I know you said, "reasons" but what?

First of all, I'm not reading him town, I'm townleaning him; second, don't be impatient, my friend. Eth0s is like a wrecking ball, he will eventually come and I will give my early thoughts on him when this happen.

Look I'm sorry and hate to be that guy but I have just been so busy. I am finally off work and school tomorrow so I WILL have some meaningful content soon. Would do it now but alcohol may be clouding my judgement. I will say that I am liking Oxy's posts a lot and think he is probably night kill target #1 (assuming he isn't scum).

@Pinturicchio You said that "a shitty read" is a scum tell from Eth0s. You believe I am obv scum. Eth0s thinks I'm not just townie, but so townie as to be a probable N1 kill. You have said that you are "townleaning him because of reasons."

Please make sense of these contradictions.

Umm, two ways of disregarding the "contradictions": first one, he made that read AFTER I said I was townleaning him, so his "shitty read" came after my post, so my read could've changed now; second, having a different read to mine doesn't mean he has a shitty read lol, I would be too full of myself if I think my reads are the best and if someone doesn't think as me is having shitty reads. On the contrary, now I want to wait eth0s even more because my read on you could be really really bad, so maybe you should wait for him too.

and

I already convinced myself

that Oxy is scum

I don't like the phrasing of this at all. First, it implies the same sort of early read on someone that he calls me scummy for. Second, "to convince" is a strange verb to use when describing how one comes to have a read. Scummy posts "ping" a town's radar. Town "notices", "picks up on", "catches", and "finds" scum clues. All of these describe the instantaneous nature of realization. Scum, knowing that they must deceive others, must "convince" themselves that others will find an argument believable.

My read wasn't an early read! It is a first gutread, yes, but the game started without me and I had a lot of material to sort my reads unlike your early reads. About the phrasing: you're right! I've said it before: I'm not an english native speaker, so sometimes thing like that happen, so the only thing I can say is "sorry" thanks for the free teaching lesson!

I know were you are coming from, Oxy: you have suspicions on eth0s and I'm the one defending him, so in a world were eth0s is scum, Pin is probably his partner. It's exactly the same thing I'm doing with you and ofhrz, so I get it.

[Oxy]

I tried to read everything but somewhere in between became really difficult, and I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum

This implies that your read on me had solidified by "somewhere in between." If your read on me was not an early read, then by what point in reading this thread had you solidified your read on me?

[Oxy]

Also, my vote on eth0s was aimed at getting him to post. My scum lean read on him is very light, and is not a result of trying to guess partners D1. I don't think I've ever read a game where I successfully inferred a scum team in the manner you are attempting.

[pinturicchio]

@Ofrhz How do you feel about RVS in a general sense?

Ah. I misunderstood your question.
Ruru Read

Spoiler:

Initial vote on 5 seemed scummy initially because (in my mind) it implied that eth0s had been logged in AFTER the game began and had been lurking. This wasn't the case as I pointed out in 8.

In reality, Ruru had checked other members of the game, found the person who had been active most recently, and chose them. This is super town motivated because it increases the chances that Ruru has to actually engage with the person they vote on.

It also turns out to be exactly the mindset that I took last night while waiting for the game to begin. I made the following image to accompany a vote on Callitwhatyouwant, referencing the difference in our name lengths:



And then I looked at everyone's last time online, realized how long it had been since they had logged in, and decided to switch RVS votes to someone more likely to be active early. Scum!Oxy would have likely used the original image, had he bothered to make an image at all, since it would give him an excuse to passively wait for his RVS target to show up.

Ofrhz Read

Spoiler:

7 has a carefree attitude that I like in response to an RVS vote, and that I especially like coming from someone not comfortable with RVS generally.
12, 16 seemed odd in the moment because they misrepresented what Ruru had actually written.
18 apologizes for the misunderstanding, and

proceeds to never bring it up again

<--- townie

After this point in the thread there seems to be mainly misunderstanding/misrepresenting between the two of them. It continues to look like town trying hard to scum hunt but talking past one another. I look forward to more content from this back and forth to help cement/refute my reads, but I'm not interested in joining in.
(and yes, Sajj, I see that you also apologized for that misunderstanding, but my gut is telling me not to give you the same town cred for it. That's why I want to engage with you.)

What do you think about these reads?

If you could choose your role at the beginning of the game, which would you prefer?

mafia roleblocker

I'll bite. Why mafia roleblocker?

Could you please explain the case for Ofrhz being scum iff oxy=scum

Here are the posts that incriminates ofrhz as your partner. I had some posts from ofrhz too but this would be too long. Basically your interactions with him is giving him the option to create content so he can get towncred from everyone else. These interactions seems prefabricated, like ofrhz asking you in your mafia chat "dude ask me about why I like being mafia roleblocker, I have a good answer to redirect this to ruru" kind of prefabrication. Also, ofrhz saying "Scioness and Oxy's 1v1 was painful to read, but it comes from TvT and I don't want to add fuel to the fire there" is odd.

What I see here is a well aligned mafia! Mafia has daytalk so making this kind of strategy is fully possible: you townread your partner and your partner's D1 mislynch target; your partner push that wagon as there is no tomorrow (he #242 he asks Drixx why in his lynchpool he's not considering ruru, as an example of what I'm portraying); your partner's D1 target gets mislynched, and you successfully gave yourself an alibi if your partner gets lynched on D2. You could even jump on your partner's wagon to get even more towncred! And if your partner's D1 target doesn't get mislynched on D1 and you both survive to D1, even better! Keep this going for D2 and you will be closer to the win.

This is why my read on ofrhz is tied to my read on you: if you flip scum, ofrhz is your partner; if you flip town, all the interactions between both of you comes from town. But you could be doing this exact same strategy with ruru, with ruru going on ofrhz and now following your scumlean on eth0s; then, my lynchpool is well defined. I know this is a tinfoil hat theory, but omg I love my tinfoil hat theories in this game.

[pinturicchio]

I tried to read everything but somewhere in between became really difficult, and I already convinced myself that Oxy is scum

This implies that your read on me had solidified by "somewhere in between." If your read on me was not an early read, then by what point in reading this thread had you solidified your read on me?

Yeah, I read the first posts and thought "Oxy must be scum with either ofrhz or ruru". After reading everything, I confirmed my hypothesis because it kept making sense after all. Let's draw a line:
*--------+------>
*first read of you: "he could be scum with orhz or ruru"
+in between read of you: "he still obv!towns ruru and ofrhz after ruru did some suspicious posts, this makes sense with my first read"
>now: "reading the game again from a macro point of view, my read still makes sense"

[Oxy]

How is that different from me making an early read and then having that read still make sense as the game goes on?

[Oxy]

@Pinturicchio
Do you have any examples of town!Pin that I could look at where you entertain highly speculative "tin foil hat theories" on D1?

[Oxy]

In post 14, Oxy wrote:
@Ofrhz How do you feel about RVS in a general sense?

This post is an early attempt of mine to trip Ofrhz up. Had he answered in nearly any other way, I would have scum read him in 20 rather than town read him.

It's similar to how I gave Sajj extra rope to hang herself in 171 before posting 173.

[ofrhz]

@pinturrichio regarding 288: you have built your argument on shaky ground, because your line of reasoning is:

--> Oxy looks suspicious based on these posts where he links himself with me and ruru
--> Oxy continues to townread ruru and me throughout game
--> The scum team must be in here!

1) “Oxy is scum bc his early town cred to me and ruru” is the shaky foundation I’m talking about.

2) If Oxy is town and thought ruru and I were town at the start, then he would conceivably read ruru and me as town throughout the rest of the game. Because ruru has been consistent (-ly suspicious) the whole darn game.

Also I’m flattered you think Oxy and I have masterminded this strategy to give me town cred. Unfortunately, I can’t convince you that the flow of conversation was _not_ premeditated, since you’ve already dug yourself into this hole where you believe Oxy is scum. Therefore you’ve also convinced yourself that Oxy and me and irrevocably linked, which is a stretch. I will ask this to help you reconsider: do I only come off as town when I’m responding to Oxy? I sure hope not, but this is up to you.

If you find both Oxy and ruru to be scummy, you should try to lynch whoever is more scummy. The next day, you can go back and revise your idea on who the possible scumteam is. Considering Oxy’s actions can be read as overeager or misguided town, I am confused as to why you think he is the better target. You yourself admitted that Oxy’s actions can be explained if we’re both town.

If Ofrhz is scum, then Oxy almost certainly is. That was a pretty blatant post connecting them at the hip. I suppose it could be an intentional fake out... but that would require a tremendous level of self awareness to realize how he would react if he was paired with Oxy and someone pointed it out and then actually react exactly that way and hit all the right notes.

I’m just going to bluntly ask this: why me and not ruru?

[Assemblerotws]

Vote Count 1.05

Not Voting [2]:

northsidegal, Drixx

Scioness Sajj [2]:

Oxy, eth0s

Oxy [2]:

skitter30, pinturicchio

ruru [2]:

ofrhz, Scioness Sajj

eth0s [1]:

ruru

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2018-04-03 09:00:00) on

April 3, 2018

.

Mod notes: northsidegal replaces callitwhatyouwant.

[northsidegal]

[northsidegal]

so excited to be in this game. i've only skimmed, will do a more in-depth read through soon.

[skitter30]

If we lynch Oxy and he's scum, ofrhz is his partner; if Oxy flips town, ofrhz is prob!town. If we lynch ruru and she's scum, nice! But who's her partner? Could be Oxy; if she's town, back to plan A with Oxy and ofrhz being partners in crime.

From my point of view (as biased as I am with this trio), lynching Oxy is the best way to go.

I kinda feel like on day1 we should just be aiming to find scum instead of team-hunting on pre-flip associatives.

------------

I don't like the phrasing of this at all. First, it implies the same sort of early read on someone that he calls me scummy for. Second, "to convince" is a strange verb to use when describing how one comes to have a read. Scummy posts "ping" a town's radar. Town "notices", "picks up on", "catches", and "finds" scum clues. All of these describe the instantaneous nature of realization. Scum, knowing that they must deceive others, must "convince" themselves that others will find an argument believable.

Tbf, he did say English isn't his first language; I wouldn't really weigh word-choice for him as much as I would with native-English speakers.

@pin: did you read the game before you replaced in? What I'm getting at is *when* did you convince yourself oxy was scum - before you replaced in, or after?

------------

I know Sajj has posed questions for me, but I'm just going to ignore them for the moment.

My town reads remain unconvinced that she is scum, and that is enough to give me pause at this point.

Don't misunderstand me. Sajj is still my #1 lynch today. I just don't think it's pro-town to continue going back and forth with her right now.

Bolded - still feels super LAMIST to me :/

Thing is that you're actually following through on the LAMIST things you're spouting, and are *acting* in a pro-town fashion instead of just saying that you are. By this I mean that you're dropping the Scioness argument cuz you're townreads don't think she's scum, which is a mindset I definitely understand, and an argument that I don't think comes naturally to scum. I kinda feel like scum here would continue building the scioness thing given that a bunch of people are supporting you or are still undecided; there's still room for a scioness lynch even though me/orfhz/drixx aren't super into it.

I think I want to look at some other people for now.

VOTE: ruru

I dislike that your content has dropped off, and I feel like you're avoiding taking a stance on the scioness/oxy thing, and like you aren't really trying to sort either of them. Also I don't really like the eth0s vote.

Also I think the wagon is a nice-ish wagon.

L-2 I do believe.

------------

@oxy: Can you explain your read on me please?

he is kissing up to you because of respect he has gained from that game he has read.

I'm kinda getting some buddying/pocketing vibes from him doing this tbh.

------------

Basically your interactions with him is giving him the option to create content so he can get towncred from everyone else.

Thing is I kinda feel like oxy's interacting with everyone, not just ofrzh, that way. I don't really feel like those posts particularly point to a coordinated oxy/ofrzh team.

--> Oxy continues to townread ruru and me throughout game

This however I find troubling because he's resistant to re-evaluating these reads and I don't really get why.

-----------

Heya North!

[Oxy]

Welcome, Northsidegal!

@Skitter30
I've been procrastinating an iso of you, so I'll take this as an opportunity to do just that. I have a couple things to do around the house, but you can still expect your answer in a couple hours.

[pinturicchio]

How is that different from me making an early read and then having that read still make sense as the game goes on?

My first read: "he COULD BE scum with ofrhz or ruru". Your first read: "ofrhz and ruru are conf!town". Do you see the difference?