Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[pinturicchio]

Like you are trying to convince sajj that she needs to take a step back to see how Oxy plays but why do you care about this so much and then vote her? I know you have indecisive tendencies and I'm not trying to insult you for it, I just wonder if maybe you could give a really concise breakdown on why you think either of sajj or oxy is more likely to be scum. Because it seems like you think they're both scummy yet label it a tvs. At this point I think it's time to build a really good case and go with it (after thinking, of course).

Ok that you cought up:
1. I cared because even if I scumread Scioness, I do believe that she got upset with Oxy because of the tunnel. I felt sorry for her because this game really get on the nerves of some people and I don't like that; it's really easy to avoid those situations, but sometimes it escalate too quickly. I would say is the least fun part of this modality (remember my situation with Harambey on Newbie 1854? That hit me hard, I was not expecting it). So I tried to lend her a hand. This is a game, after all: if someone is not having fun, I don't care if I'm winning or losing, it stops being fun for me.

Now, about "building a really good case on it", I think that you missed some essential posts about this: I gave a townread on Oxy long time ago because his read on skitter was not what I was expecting from scum!Oxy, because he had two "conf!towns" and I was watching carefully for his next move: I thought he would give a scumlean or scumread to someone because it would suit his narrative as being the townleader but in reality leading town to mislynches. But he instead townread skitter, and having too many townreads on early game is not an optimal strategy for scum. At that point of the game I thought Oxy was being very meticulous, so if Oxy was scum, I don't believe he would have gave skitter a townread. I read the whole thread after that, but believing Oxy was town instead of scum, and it made sense to me. So yes, I still thought that Oxy's and Scioness' 1v1 was a TvS, but now believing that Oxy is town, I started to think Scioness was the scum.

One last thing: I've addressed my indecisive tendencies in this game too. I firmly believe that one of the reasons that you self hammered on our game was partly my fault because of my indecisiveness, so I've tried to improve in that matter. I've shown myself as more confident in this game, even if I'm not as confident as I seem to be.

Glad you cought up, eth0s.

[eth0s]

why are you saying this to the guy that you're trying to convince to lynch me?

Because he too had posted less than nothing.

I read this too fast. At no point was I pushing for your lynch. People need to do some thinking and figure out the difference between being willing to threaten a lynch and follow through on that threat, and pushing a lynch.

you literally said i was the best lynch

[eth0s]

Like you are trying to convince sajj that she needs to take a step back to see how Oxy plays but why do you care about this so much and then vote her? I know you have indecisive tendencies and I'm not trying to insult you for it, I just wonder if maybe you could give a really concise breakdown on why you think either of sajj or oxy is more likely to be scum. Because it seems like you think they're both scummy yet label it a tvs. At this point I think it's time to build a really good case and go with it (after thinking, of course).

Ok that you cought up:
1. I cared because even if I scumread Scioness, I do believe that she got upset with Oxy because of the tunnel. I felt sorry for her because this game really get on the nerves of some people and I don't like that; it's really easy to avoid those situations, but sometimes it escalate too quickly. I would say is the least fun part of this modality (remember my situation with Harambey on Newbie 1854? That hit me hard, I was not expecting it). So I tried to lend her a hand. This is a game, after all: if someone is not having fun, I don't care if I'm winning or losing, it stops being fun for me.

Now, about "building a really good case on it", I think that you missed some essential posts about this: I gave a townread on Oxy long time ago because his read on skitter was not what I was expecting from scum!Oxy, because he had two "conf!towns" and I was watching carefully for his next move: I thought he would give a scumlean or scumread to someone because it would suit his narrative as being the townleader but in reality leading town to mislynches. But he instead townread skitter, and having too many townreads on early game is not an optimal strategy for scum. At that point of the game I thought Oxy was being very meticulous, so if Oxy was scum, I don't believe he would have gave skitter a townread. I read the whole thread after that, but believing Oxy was town instead of scum, and it made sense to me. So yes, I still thought that Oxy's and Scioness' 1v1 was a TvS, but now believing that Oxy is town, I started to think Scioness was the scum.

One last thing: I've addressed my indecisive tendencies in this game too. I firmly believe that one of the reasons that you self hammered on our game was partly my fault because of my indecisiveness, so I've tried to improve in that matter. I've shown myself as more confident in this game, even if I'm not as confident as I seem to be.

Glad you cought up, eth0s.

don't blame yourself for that game. We couldn't form a town bloc to save our lives

[eth0s]

but I am 100% okay with lynching him today.

You won't lynch me today.

VOTE: Oxy

[Scioness Sajj]

I really don't like the "either or" here. Do you still feel like either you or Oxy should be the D1 lynch now that Oxy no longer thinks you're conf scum?

If his tunnel was actually a thing, and I believe in it more now since he has addmited, then I don't need to make it 'me or him'.
My biggest problems with Oxy:
1. his tunnel on me was lacking some characteristics of tunnels I have seen before
a). he was not 'fully' tunneling - if he really believed the things he saw made me scum, he would argue about it more imo
b). a lot of his arguments was taken from the source outside of the game like he couldn't find things good enough in the game
c). even if he cared about not upsetting people with another 1v1, he could have make a case for his townblock and try to get my lynch like that
2. it felt like he, on purpose, was being difficult (when he said that if I want to understand his townreads I have to read them myself and the one time he dodged and made a joke about it).
3. it felt like he walked into a game with the idea that I got to be scum
4. he was loud about me, but was never actively trying to convince anybody (posting that I'm scummy but never quoting things for people to pay attention to, so nobody knows why I'm scummy)
the above made me unable to sort him and because of it:
1. I have focused on trying to figure him out
2. I was focusing on finding answers and got into tunnel myself
3. I have realized that I may have biased pov and I can't trust myself, got paranoid
4. I got more paranoid because I had to double check if what I'm thinking is what I'm seeing or if it's me looking at things from scum Oxy pov
So when I saw post that finally made me disbelief that his tunnel was genuine I had to make a case and push it into 'me or him' because if the same thing was happening Day 2 I would most likely have to replace out because of being paranoid about being paranoid and general annoyance I have gained from the state things were in (this is about me not being happy with myself, not me blaming anybody). Since it is not a thing, I should get out of the tunnel and paranoia soon enough to get back into the game.

I will make one big post with spoilers with answers for everybody but eth0s I think. I have singled this one out becuase I think it exlains where I stand right now and everybody should read it. More to follow.

[Scioness Sajj]

sajj is confusing me a bit

same

[Oxy]

why are you saying this to the guy that you're trying to convince to lynch me?

Because he too had posted less than nothing.

I read this too fast. At no point was I pushing for your lynch. People need to do some thinking and figure out the difference between being willing to threaten a lynch and follow through on that threat, and pushing a lynch.

you literally said i was the best lynch

You became my vote for best lynch after I townread sajj. When I asked Drixx to vote for you, Sajj was my favorite lynch. I'm not sure I would continue to call you my best lynch now.

[Oxy]

but I am 100% okay with lynching him today.

You won't lynch me today.

VOTE: Oxy

Seems belated. Good luck!

[ruru]

On first impression I'm not really seeing eth0s's recent posts as coming from scum, especially given the timing (Drixx having votes on him, and nobody aside from Oxy showing much interest in lynching him). I'm currently entertaining the idea of Drixx+skitter.

Oxy is not seeming as towny as before. At the same time, as much as I don't like 504, I'm still not reading him as scum.

I'm not really sure what to think at this point. I still need to reread eth0s and I'd like to hear more from NSG.

So then what's with the posts? I have to believe that a man of 10 years forum mafia experience can come up with a less clearly anti-town post than that. Like, come on.

They're reaction tests, obviously. What's the most post efficient way to collect reads? What would you do to proactively collect reads if you can only post once every other day? It would take a week to have a simple conversation. A reaction test, on the other hand, is like a trap you lay and come back to.

I see what you're getting at here, especially if 254 was followed up by a post that clears things up. I still don't like 372.

@ruru how was it cleared up? can you link or explain this to me? still have a shroud of mystery around Drixx rn

It wasn't, that's why I wrote "if" and complained about 372.

[ruru]

(Drixx having votes on him, and nobody aside from Oxy showing much interest in lynching

eth0s

).

Clarity

[Oxy]

VOTE: Pinturicchio You guys got the pocketing attempt backwards.

[Oxy]

readlist:

Spoiler:

Basically Confirmed Town

Ruru
Ofrhz

Town

Town lean

eth0s
Skitter30

Null

Drixx
NSG

scum lean

Pinturicchio

Scum

Basically Conf Scum

[pinturicchio]

but I am 100% okay with lynching him today.

You won't lynch me today.

Lol, what, where? I told you not to vote eth0s, I think that's the only "pocketing" I could have ever done to you. What changed?

[Oxy]

Nothing changed. I haven't town read you for one minute of the game. Pocketing attempt starts with:

Btw, even if I'm scumreading you, I really love your playstyle, it's obvious that you're having fun and your grammar is splendid. I'm not a native english speaker, so your posts are fun to read.

[pinturicchio]

I mean I don't care if you don't townread me, but me pocketing you makes no sense. That was just a compliment and I stand by it

[Oxy]

I can see how someone might think it odd to say that someone who starts the game by making a case on me is pocketing me, but it damn near worked. I wanted you to be town so we could have fun together. PoE wise it's very unlikely. Your tone of voice while talking with me (especially while scumreading me, but after as well) and your tone while talking with sajj when scumreading her. It's not the tone of town talking to scum.

I still appreciate the compliment. It made my night that night, and I hope my scum reading you doesn't change our future friendship.

Like I'm looking at this game and eth0s is looking less likely, so that leaves NSG/Pin NSG/Drixx, NSG/Skitter30, Pin/Drixx, Pin/Skitter30, Skitter30/Drixx and while I wouldn't have expected skitter's reactions post wagon mess, I don't think I'd call it a scum claim just yet, making her pairings less likely.

[pinturicchio]

I still appreciate the compliment. It made my night that night, and I hope my scum reading you doesn't change our future friendship.

I see what you mean, but you're technically doing the same thing here.

Why would I not be friendly to scum? It's not like they are mafia IRL

[Oxy]

I got halfway through your quotes, but this shit just doesn't make sense either.

[Oxy]

VOTE: unvote

[ofrhz]

So then what's with the posts? I have to believe that a man of 10 years forum mafia experience can come up with a less clearly anti-town post than that. Like, come on.

They're reaction tests, obviously. What's the most post efficient way to collect reads? What would you do to proactively collect reads if you can only post once every other day? It would take a week to have a simple conversation. A reaction test, on the other hand, is like a trap you lay and come back to.

Yes I eventually suspected this too, but only after I posted 376. If this was indeed a reaction test, Scioness Sajj was the only one who seemed to buy it in 447, but I'm townleaning her.

Think about it like this - if townies always behave in a pro-town fashion, scum wouldn't be able to push mislynches cuz everyone would be obvtown, right? The fact that mislynches even happen kinda implies that townies don't always play pro-town. Like in an ideal world, all townies should want to play in the most pro-town fashion possible, and scum should want to emulate that so that they don't stick out like a sore thumb, but in practice town don't always play optimally.

I agree with this. This is also why I still think Oxy is town. While I disagree with his tactics, he gets major town credit from me for pushing the game forward. I've read too many newbie games where the game essentially stalls because everyone is so passive to the point where no discussion is being generated. I also still find it hard to believe that scum would risk drawing this much attention to themselves.

I don’t understand what ‘fits for show’ have to do with the ate itself. I have NEVER in that game planned ate to gain towncred or townreads. I have mentioned fighting people or wanting to fight them.
Was I in skitter’s lynchpool?

I meant that you've been histrionic as scum before. You're right, I don't know if you were pretending to be offended or not, and in fact, I think you were genuinely pissed off at points in that game. However, my point at the end of the day is that you being pissed off isn't indicative of town, but skitter seems to think it is. (btw, https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... 1#p9960891 is one example of the kind of post I'm talking about. Ruru found this earlier.)
I think I used the wrong word here. When I said "lynchpool," I meant "willing to lynch you if you were scummy" enough. She just said that she no longer wants to consider lynching you at all today, which is an extreme reaction and not at all consistent with her relatively cautious playstyle.

If his tunnel was actually a thing, and I believe in it more now since he has addmited, then I don't need to make it 'me or him'.
[truncated]

I like this post. I don't think scum would be able to maintain a clear chronology of their feelings. As in, scum can and would fake emotions but would probably not clearly remember what emotion they faked a week ago.

Unfortunately this means I have almost all town or null reads

[Oxy]

Unfortunately this means I have almost all town or null reads

me right now

[ofrhz]

(not a serious post)

Spoiler:

me right now

Conclusion: Drixx/NSG scumteam!

I need to reread this game, but will be busier than usual in the next two days. Just a heads up.

[Oxy]

That made me smile for the first time tonight =)

[Oxy]

@ruru can you talk to me about skitter some more please

[Scioness Sajj]

Actually I will be just posting things