Open 719: Stack The Deck! (D4)

[Thor665]

@Mathdino: I have a request. Can you use your influence on a couple of players to get thor to L-1, please? I'm hoping you do catch my drift, but if not then just please do it for me.

I was going to actually burn air to point out how bad the push on me is or how much I find the theory setup discussion flying at me to be shockingly shallow.

But I'd like to endorse the above, because it amuses me also.

@Mathdino - incidentally though, you blew your chance to get "in before reaction test" by, oh, about 24 hours since I actually haven't yet said I think the BG should claim,a nd my initial question was (and remains) why don't *you* think that in this situation?
I'm fascinated that you're doubling down on the logic presented by others and also ignoring that my stance against claiming was against early claims - which, again you can't show I'm reversing on. So...bwuh?

I'm still waiting for anyone to explain how a BG dying this night phase narrows down scum's ability to fakeclaim more than a BG claiming sometime today.
I suspect I'll keep on waiting, as people haven't been reading my posts for quite some time - clearly.

[Thor665]

@Math - [snip]
Why aren't you advocating that any bodyguard claim at this stage of the game after admitting their only goal with an IC in play is to die for the IC?

@Math[snip]
Why aren't you advocating that any bodyguard claim at this stage of the game after admitting their only goal with an IC in play is to die for the IC?

Me: @MathDino - why aren't you advancing a given setup break (BG claiming)?
MD: OMFG why would you think I believe someing so #(*^@*% stupid!?!

Tell me again what you got in "before"?
For the record, I'm not changing what I'm saying - people are just being weird and conf. biased.

@Everyone - Stop skimming - it's anti town.
And for Math, the one person here I expect more from, it's scummy.

[Mathdino]

and i'm telling you it doesn't fucking matter

i'm already getting flak as a player for talking about setup spec too much. it's why i get it all over with in RVS

having an extra confirmed town on D1 doesn't substantially improve dayplay, it's at best +0 EV for town, and that's nowhere near a good enough advantage for me to actually push

i push things that i consider potentially breaking, not "oh i guess it wouldn't be bad if this happened"

this is not a useful conversation to be having. i don't know how you got the impression that i would choose to lie as scum in an open setup about correct PR play. i've said EVERYWHERE that i would never do that, because that's suicidal in an open setup when everyone else has the same amount of information i have

[Mathdino]

no i'm not doing this thor i'm sorry

you're asking me questions specifically to get me talking and talking nonstop about something that's just not useful

the opportunity cost of talking about this as opposed to actual fucking reads on people is massive

[Thor665]

having an extra confirmed town on D1 doesn't substantially improve dayplay, it's at best +0 EV for town, and that's nowhere near a good enough advantage for me to actually push

So your stance isn't that it's bad (which feels like a stance change from telling me I'm an idiot for suggesting it)
But rather that it's of neutral benefit?

this is not a useful conversation to be having. i don't know how you got the impression that i would choose to lie as scum in an open setup about correct PR play. i've said EVERYWHERE that i would never do that, because that's suicidal in an open setup when everyone else has the same amount of information i have

How is the BG claim suicide?
You and I both know the BG's job is to die tonight.
What does it affect negative utility for town?

[Thor665]

no i'm not doing this thor i'm sorry

you're asking me questions specifically to get me talking and talking nonstop about something that's just not useful

the opportunity cost of talking about this as opposed to actual fucking reads on people is massive

Meanwhile you're talking and talking about it WHILE REFUSING TO JUST ANSWER THE QUESTION.
Either you're trying to bait me, are a silly fool, or are scum.
Which is it?
I'll accept a 4th option if you have one.

[brassherald]

having an extra confirmed town on D1 doesn't substantially improve dayplay, it's at best +0 EV for town, and that's nowhere near a good enough advantage for me to actually push

So your stance isn't that it's bad (which feels like a stance change from telling me I'm an idiot for suggesting it)
But rather that it's of neutral benefit?

this is not a useful conversation to be having. i don't know how you got the impression that i would choose to lie as scum in an open setup about correct PR play. i've said EVERYWHERE that i would never do that, because that's suicidal in an open setup when everyone else has the same amount of information i have

How is the BG claim suicide?
You and I both know the BG's job is to die tonight.
What does it affect negative utility for town?

I'm super confused right now.

Thor, do you think we should have BG claim or not?

[Mathdino]

thor this literally boils down to "it's not an idea i had because it doesn't seem to actually help anything"

you're trying to crucify me for not coming up with an idea by myself that you know damn well that not only you would hate, and most of the playerlist would hate

i have played stack the deck before. i have modded stack the deck before. if i ever had the opinion that BG should claim D1, it would've come out by now.

it hasn't.

maybe it's not stupid, maybe it's just 0 EV for town. but it's stupid talking about it because it makes it all the more likely people will start dropping PR tells left and right

[Nauci]

Thor it doesn't matter if you are pro claim or anti claim. Your opinion on how it works and its consequences are stupid.

Ordinarily I'd lean town on someone willing to go this against the grain but this is bad faith shitpost lobbing to distract us. I think Maria is the only one reading it as genuine.

[Nauci]

Accusing him of saying bg claim is suicidal is a gross straw man.

[Mathdino]

didn't i tell you maria has sub-random reads

thor, if he's scum, is muddying up the thread with bullshit
thor, if he's town, is reaction testing me based on an idiotic understanding of how town-mathdino thinks
which is clearly uninformed by any research given that i try to break the setup of basically every open game i play, and it's not hard to see how i come up with ideas
protectives claiming doesn't help at all, as a general rule
regardless

there's no universe in which thor actually thinks BG should claim
yet that's the universe maria lives in

[Mathdino]

Accusing him of saying bg claim is suicidal is a gross straw man.

oh yeah i'm ignoring those posts now

what i said is that lying about what good strategy is in open setups is suicidal, because everyone can see the setup with the same information i have

it's part of why i enjoy open setups, there's no "DOES SCUM HAVE INFORMATION THAT CAN FUCK US OVER HERE"

[brassherald]

I still want a straight answer from Thor about his own views on this. One post he says that if you read everything he says, he is against a BG claim, then the next post he implies a BG claim can be good, or at the very least neutral.

I don't understand his stance at all on this, he seems to cut both ways.

[MariaR]

Guess you could call me Crazy~

[Mathdino]

omfg
i'm not annoyed at you guys i'm annoyed at thor
this confusion should've been expected

thor's lack of clarification on this is annoying as shit
speaking from a town-thor POV

Thor thinks that town-Mathdino would enter the game arguing for a Bodyguard claim. He's interrogating me about why I wouldn't. Because I'm not giving him a straight answer, he believes I'm scum dodging the discussion of a strategy that town-Mathdino would usually consider optimal.

Thor does not believe the BG should claim. Thor thinks

I should believe the BG should claim

. Which I don't. Which is his issue.

[Mathdino]

VC1.5

Mathdino (2) (L-5):

Beefster, Thor665

Nauci (1) (L-6):

jmo16mla

brassherald (1) (L-6):

Nauci

Thor665 (4) (L-3):

Espeonage, Wisdom, Mathdino, Judge Joseph Dredd

Beefster (3) (L-4):

the worst, brassherald, MariaR

Not voting (1) :

UglyDuck

With 12 alive, 7 votes are needed to lynch.

@Mathdino: I have a request. Can you use your influence on a couple of players to get thor to L-1, please? I'm hoping you do catch my drift, but if not then just please do it for me.

Yeah, didn't see the votecount. I'm not all-in on Thor. But a lynch other than Thor/Beefster is obviously suboptimal for the day.

@Nauci:

Where are you planning on voting EoD? I agree brass is weird but I feel like brass is a super bad D1 lynch. He gets pretty obvtown as town later on.

@jmo:

Please do something.

JJD everyone other than the IC and my wagon is voting someone i'm scumreading
i have little motivation to end the day on thor right now, i wanna see this dueling wagon thing pan out

[Thor665]

Thor, do you think we should have BG claim or not?

You're the first person to ask.
I'm indifferent on it as long as it comes late Day 1, but I don't see much point other than that.
Now tell me why you thought I said anything else?

thor this literally boils down to "it's not an idea i had because it doesn't seem to actually help anything"

you're trying to crucify me for not coming up with an idea by myself that you know damn well that not only you would hate, and most of the playerlist would hate

i have played stack the deck before. i have modded stack the deck before. if i ever had the opinion that BG should claim D1, it would've come out by now.

it hasn't.

maybe it's not stupid, maybe it's just 0 EV for town. but it's stupid talking about it because it makes it all the more likely people will start dropping PR tells left and right

This feels like a sudden course change from your initial response to me.
Why so much vitriol then when your answer was "I don't really see much advantage nor disadvantage to it?"

Thor it doesn't matter if you are pro claim or anti claim. Your opinion on how it works and its consequences are stupid.

That's kind of mean.
Also I disagree.

Ordinarily I'd lean town on someone willing to go this against the grain but this is bad faith Smurfpost lobbing to distract us. I think Maria is the only one reading it as genuine.

What about my posting is so bad, and why is it you're ignoring that Math was being intentionally evasive in answering me?
With him being that evasive I either had to drop the subject or pursue him.
What makes pursuit so bad?
Also, if *that's* bad posting - what about all the people making up a belief I haven't advanced? Is that Smurfposting also? Or is that just cool?
You feel like there are a lot of double standards here to back up preconceived conclusions, rather than conclusions flowing from analysis.

Accusing him of saying bg claim is suicidal is a gross straw man.

Here is his comment;

i've said EVERYWHERE that i would never do that, because that's suicidal

How did I straw man him exactly?

protectives claiming doesn't help at all, as a general rule

BG is a special kind of protective though, isn't it? Especially with an IC in play - that's *MASSIVELY different than other protective roles.
You keep glossing over that, it makes you feel fake. Because I know you're not daft.

there's no universe in which thor actually thinks BG should claim
yet that's the universe maria lives in

You also advanced that concept.
And called me scummy for it.
?

[brassherald]

Thor, do you think we should have BG claim or not?

You're the first person to ask.
I'm indifferent on it as long as it comes late Day 1, but I don't see much point other than that.
Now tell me why you thought I said anything else?

I read 237 (Specifically "What's the reason a BG shouldn't?") as a statement that BG should claim.

It reads to me like you are taking a stance that you are asking Math to disprove.

[Mathdino]

again.
thor.
i'm uninterested.
if you're town and you want to be wrong about me based on a single point that you think i would ALWAYS make as town
that's your damn fault, and i'm sorry you've gotten worse over time
i have so much else to talk about and so much else i HAVE talked about

and you want me to go wall vs wall with you on the one thing that annoys the majority of MS playerlists when i start ranting about it

i'm uninterested. back off. you're not lynching me today. talk to me about anything else.

[Thor665]

again.
Math.
i'm uninterested.
if you're town and you want to be wrong about me based on a single point that you think i would RANDOM ADVANCE as scum
that's your damn fault, and i'm sorry you've gotten worse over time
i have so much else to talk about and so much else i HAVE talked about

and you want me to go wall vs wall with you on the one thing that annoys the majority of MS playerlists when i start ranting about it even though only one person has brought it up

i'm uninterested. back off. you're not lynching me today. talk to me about anything else.



Okay, here's something else scumboi - I'm town, assess the BS wagon on me where you're claiming you didn't insert into the conversation that I wanted the BG to claim. (because if it wasn't you, considering I denied it to you a few times, i have no idea who it was - clue me in? Brass was literally the first person to ask me, which is annoying, because I'd already answered it in smacking at you.)

[Nauci]

@Brass

I really wouldn't TR people for calling out BG claiming. It's such a stupid idea I can't see the entire scum team being dumb enough to tank themselves getting on board.

I would read it as successful trollbait from Thor, prompting lots of pages where people sound like we're contributing by debating BG claiming but not actually saying anything sortable because the conversations revolve around the concepts of bg claims or voting town reads, not what anyone's motivations or opinions are on the content in this game.

I agree on early call outs, but we're pretty close on our strategies of sit back and see. I think that the bull in a china shop players are necessary to stir up content, and if it was a game full of players like you, me, and Dino, we'd make a whole lot of IIOA posts and not get anywhere.

Why do you prefer beef over your other scum reads?

[Wisdom]

Vote Thor or Beefster.

why is a beefster vote something youre equally happy about

[Mathdino]

- what the fuck?
wait what?
seriously WHAT?
literally the last time stack the deck was run (something i ran) the D1 bodyguard claim was just an awful idea
if you want to make that proposal, then go right the fuck ahead dude
but you're literally trying to interrogate me for not having come up with that idea?
are you kidding me?

THOR I SWEAR TO GOD

THIS WAS THE FIRST TIME I ACKNOWLEDGED YOU TALKING ABOUT THE BODYGUARD

I WAS NOT CRITICISING YOU OR SCUMREADING YOU FOR CLAIMING "THE BODYGUARD SHOULD CLAIM". THAT IS NOT A SCUMMY THING TO SAY.

I ACKNOWLEDGED THAT YOU HAD AN ISSUE WITH ME *NOT* COMING UP WITH THAT IDEA. I'M SAYING THATS STUPID, BECAUSE I FOUND THAT IDEA TO BE STUPID, AND I DONT PROPOSE STUPID IDEAS.

WHEN YOU KEPT ARGUING IT WAS LIKE YOU WERE ARGUING YOURSELF INTO BELIEVING THE BG CLAIM WAS THE RIGHT IDEA. FOR A SECOND I THOUGHT YOU WERE GENUINELY ARGUING THAT

BUT THEN I WAS LIKE NO THATS FUCKING STUPID, THOR ARGUED ALL OF NEWBIE 1856 ABOUT WHY HAVING CONFTOWN IS BAD FOR DAYPLAY

SO I WAS LIKE

WOW LOOKS LIKE THORS JUST BEIN USELESS

ARE WE FUCKING DONE HERE

AND ARE YOU JUST NOT GOING TO TALK ABOUT ANY OTHER PLAYERS OR BEEFSTER'S ACTUAL SCUMCLAIM ISO

[Thor665]

the point is that there's no universe in which town-you thinks that's a good idea

I'm not saying I do (feel free to quote where I have)
I'm asking why you don't.

"Thor is terrible for not making clear he wasn't advancing something he never said, Thor is da worst player!"
Lern2reed?

[Mathdino]

Vote Thor or Beefster.

why is a beefster vote something youre equally happy about

have played with both beefster town and beefster scum

and total uselessness and crazy-ass voting patterns is something i expect more from beefster-scum

what in his ISO is town-indicative to you? i'm willing to be sold but beefster is a continual dumb-or-scum game with me