Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Oxy]

I missed you, Pin. Give me your game solve. I think we're getting real close.

[skitter30]

@ofrzh, 1314.

A few things.

1. Rewind back to your Drixx vote before deadline yesterday, in 1038, and pretend you don't know yet that he was going to flip green. Who were the potential drixx partners?

2. Rewind back to your ruru vote yesterday before deadline, in 1023 - why weren't you considering her potential partners then?

3. "If scioness kept pushing to push for a ruru lynch, I would expect scioness to start scumreading me .... " OK, but like, that hadn't really happened yet, and she wasn't really pushing the ofrzh/ruru angle, so it's weird to defend against that before it starts happening. Like why bring it up now at all?

4. "If ruru flips green, wouldn't that vindicate me?????" No, since you could be white-knighting her the towncred, especially since you seem to be trying to pull that right in this quote.

------

also inb4 skitter is going to hate 1312 since those are her two biggest town reads. Skitter, please just let me have this for a little while, and then I'll work with you on the ruru slot as long as you want. You have my word.

I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight. The fact that the individuals involved are ofrzh and scioness doesn't particularly bother me.

-----

also I think skitter has a point about validating scumreads with associations.

What do you mean by this?

[Oxy]

In post 1315, Oxy wrote:
also inb4 skitter is going to hate 1312 since those are her two biggest town reads. Skitter, please just let me have this for a little while, and then I'll work with you on the ruru slot as long as you want. You have my word.


I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight. The fact that the individuals involved are ofrzh and scioness doesn't particularly bother me.

I

feel

like my saying "it would be a very pro town move to continue 1v1'ing for a little while longer." should give you an explicit understanding that I was "egging on a fight."

Was that a scummy thing for me to do?

Or was the sentence, "I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight." just another way to attach a scummy connotation to an otherwise pro-town action?

[skitter30]

Let me ask you a question. Did you have a scum partner for ruru when you hopped on her wagon yesterday?

So when I say things like "I understand scioness' thought-process", I mean things like this, cuz this is exactly what I was thinking (see my last post). Things like this make me think her thought-process isn't fabricated, because it's following a thought-process that I understand and agree with.

(Sorry, I asked the same thing later cuz I hadn't read this page yet)

I didn’t consider who ruru’s potential scum partners could have been until Oxy’s post that I responded to.

So this answer is a little bit weird for me cuz here you're townreading ruru that strongly for not having partners when this wasn't a consideration for you yesterday.

Is there anyone else you're townreading cuz of PoE this way? Or, more accurately, is there anyone else you'd be to lynching cuz of PoE read at this time?

(Again, for the record, I think there's a distinction between 'I don't think X is scum because I can't find partners for them' and 'I am townreading X')

-----

By defending myself, I would help people eliminate possible scumteams with ruru in it, so I am defending ruru by extension. Or that's how I see it anyway.

Not sure what to think about this. Like it's kinda backwards and kinda scummy and kinda makes the associatives between you and her superstrong, but makes sense from the POV you're espousing I think? I don't really think partners tie themselves together this strongly?

Idk, this is like a really weird thing to do.

-----

Okay but that's not really what you said:

I think it's best just to look for individual scumminess and look for partners after a redflip.

It sounded like you didn't want it to be part of the discussion at all, rather than a piece of (unreliable) evidence.

The quote is a one-sentence soundbyte explaining my POV that I elaborated on later. I think it's an unreliable piece of evidence that can lead town astray (especially without a scumflip) and I therefore don't think it's a particularly fruitful discussion right now.

[skitter30]

In post 1315, Oxy wrote:
also inb4 skitter is going to hate 1312 since those are her two biggest town reads. Skitter, please just let me have this for a little while, and then I'll work with you on the ruru slot as long as you want. You have my word.


I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight. The fact that the individuals involved are ofrzh and scioness doesn't particularly bother me.

I

feel

like my saying "it would be a very pro town move to continue 1v1'ing for a little while longer." should give you an explicit understanding that I was "egging on a fight."

Was that a scummy thing for me to do?

Or was the sentence, "I actually dislike it cuz it feels like you're egging on a fight." just another way to attach a scummy connotation to an otherwise pro-town action?

Yes, I think that egging on a fight is scummy because it creates a gamestate focusing on two people that makes it easier for other people to get overlooked.

(Like right now NSG/pin aren't really posting. If there's a 1v1 between ofrzh and scioness I think it's fairly likely that other players will be subsumed by the argument and kinda forget to pay attention to the two of them.)

Or, like, think about your 1v1 with scioness - it kinda took over the game and made it kinda hard for people to focus on anything else.

I don't think that creating 1v1s on purpose is a pro-town thing to do.

[Oxy]

1) Pin said he would be very busy until tomorrow.
2) NSG hasn't posted in the 3 days, 8 hours that this day has been open.

Should we have sat quietly waiting for them while doing nothing?

Do you think 1v1's ever give insight into associations?

Are we so short on time in this 14 day phase that we can't spend 24 or 36 hours on an interaction?

I

feel

like I just want to lynch you today, and mathdino's reads be damned.

[northsidegal]

prod received

[skitter30]

Ok, how does purposefully creating a 1v1 *help* anything? Explain to me why this is pro-town.

My point isn't that a 1v1 would make them less likely to post (the point you appear to be addressing). My point is that if they don't post, it's more likely to be overlooked, and that a 1v1 creates a gamestate that overly focuses on two players. Like it creates more room for people not to participate, which is exactly what we don't want.

Also I wouldn't exactly characterize this gamestate as "sitting quietly for them while doing nothing", nor do I believe that creating a 1v1 would solve that problem even if we were to be experiencing it.

[Oxy]

Ok, how does purposefully creating a 1v1 *help* anything? Explain to me why this is pro-town.

I think I have a better read on both Sajj and Ofrhz as a result, and I think you're playing dumb right now (but you aren't dumb...).

[northsidegal]

can't beat em, join em. i'm walling.

What makes you think that? I think odds are at least one scum was on the wagon.

Why did you want to lynch me yesterday, and why do you want to lynch me now?

who would that scum on the wagon be and what makes you think one specifically instead of all town or two scum?

who are your townreads off the wagon?

Also why did NSG leave her vote on Oxy?

SS's hammer on her nullread stands out to me but that's just one of the things I found weird about her recent play

.

eh, plainly put i was just lurking it out. i think i would've rather lynched skitter over drixx but if i was trusting mathdino's townread there then drixx was up next but when i checked the thread my vote would've been hammer and i didn't want to hammer, if i'm recalling correctly.

really interested to hear more on the bolded. what do you think scioness should have done instead?

from my POV, I'm town, Math is town, skitter and Oxy are very likely town, so Scioness is the only one that could be scum.

I'm kind of on the fence about Scioness, she was okay up until her "We must lynch skitter today" thought process which made no sense.

My reasons for voting are the same as yesterday, and I'm pretty sure I explained them yesterday, but basically you're not genuinely scumhunting. For example, you say things like "I think odds are at least one scum was on the wagon,"

which is a statement that anyone could make by doing a math calculation and requires very little analysis of the game and the people in it

.

in response to the bolded – what about me and pintu and ruru?

i really like the italicized there, even though i think you'll often find players make statements like that a lot and i don't really think it's more likely to come from scum than town, i like the observation and, if left unsubstantiated, definitely could be a scumtell.

[skitter30]

Ok, how does purposefully creating a 1v1 *help* anything? Explain to me why this is pro-town.

I think I have a better read on both Sajj and Ofrhz as a result, and I think you're playing dumb right now (but you aren't dumb...).

I don't think deliberately creating a sub-optimal gamestate is pro-town, and I don't think that you need to do that to get reads on people.

[northsidegal]

@ruru

My introduction to mafia was IRL mafia in a certain circle of what I think were fairly experienced players. I had never played or seen the game played before, and I was majoring in math, so my playstyle was pretty strange. I played two games with them; in the first I rolled mafia and the second I rolled VT. In both games I claimed mafia with a villainous grin on day 1, because I thought I may as well explore weird options to balance myself (in the poker/game theory sense), because I didn't think I could pull off mafia when I rolled it unless I always acted scummy and I didn't want people to be reading me. (I also got lynched on day 1 in both games and never played mafia again with that group.)

how much forum experience do you have?

[Oxy]

Welcome back, NSG! I'm really relying on you today. =)

[northsidegal]

But I'm also pissed, also for two things: because if he was scum I would understand him doing what he did, but him being town I think it's a little unfair to come and be basically a conf!town in a Newbie game... I mean come on, I had a blast in my first Newbie because I was really engaged and almost dreamed with that game. When someone as experienced as Dino comes, conf!town himself and start solving the game... I don't know, it feels unfair, for town and for scum, because if Dino's reads are right, it doesn't feel like a win at all, and obviously for scum is unfair too because there was a conf!town. I believe that's why the scumteam decided to kill him: you have to kill the people who won't be lynched by any chance, that's one of the reasons scum tries to hit the PRs at night (and because of the PR's night actions, of course), and Dino was basically conf!town...

why do you consider him making the argument that he only tries to replace into town slots to be him basically being conftown?

for the record i could see this being scum pintu mad at a previously lynchable slot becoming obviously town but not if math had him as town in which case he would be happy that math's read was wrong, will have to go back and check (i think math had him as town or at least followed my townread on him), just felt worth pointing out.

[northsidegal]

Welcome back, NSG! I'm really relying on you today. =)

ughhh

this is not a game i feel proud of so far, so i might let you down here

you saying this certainly puts the pressure on though, and i like to think i do good (perhaps even better) under pressure. so, that's certainly some motivation to solve there.

[northsidegal]

Also Mathdino townread a lot of people, so he has to be wrong somewhere. What I was trying to say earlier is that if Mathdino was wrong about one thing, he could have been wrong about NSG. But yeah, I'm probably wrong here, since I'm clearly not very good at this game lol.

this is fallacious and kind of damages my townread on you, especially the last sentence there

[northsidegal]

Agreed, but he really does have that good of a track-record of reading her I think.

something something sample size

sorry, this is just me actively arguing against a reason to townread me just for the sake of my pride over the fact that i

could

fool mathdino as scum, probably

[northsidegal]

I feel like you even engaging on my case is proof of you being a scum. You weren’t interested in finding out why ofrhz voted you, you barely bothered with him. But when I made a case on you you felt a need to defend yourself even though you thought the case was weak and made by confused town/scum.

and what conclusion do you draw from this? like, why is ruru only defending your case instead of ofhrz's proof of her being scum?

[northsidegal]

NSG - I need you to tell me how strongly you believe in that towntell from Pintu. Also what do you think of skitter now?

i think it's decently likely to be a towntell – not

outside of his scumrange

, necessarily, just something that he'd be more likely to have done as town, especially given that i wasn't in the game when he did it. (and thus it's unlikely that he as scum intentionally did what i would be looking for as a towntell).

i'm still paranoid of skitter. i kind of

want

to trust mathdino's read there because it makes things a lot easier but i'm not sure if i really can.

[northsidegal]

{nsg}
{oxy}
{ofhrz, pintu}
{scioness, skitter, ruru}


i think this is where i'm at right now?

[northsidegal]

- skitter - I feel like if skitter and ruru were to stage a 1v1, they could do better than skitter's "I'm gut-scumleaning ruru but I can't explain why" and ruru's "OMG skitter sucks because she keeps misunderstanding me and Oxy!!!!" Like who would stage something like that? this pairing isn't very likely to me for those reasons.

i don't think this is very good reasoning to rule out a scumteam – it sounds to me like "too scummy to be scum" reasoning.

[northsidegal]

Ah, lol - this is actually directed at Ruru. I don't think I'm lynching ruru today without a red check or something

why? this is a short but important question.

NSG COME HERE PLEASE I NEED TO TALK TO YOU

sorry for being absent. i don't feel good at all about my reads this game so it just makes me want to ignore it.

by the way, if scioness is scum this game she's doing an excellent job of pocketing me, because this post screams town!scioness to me. in the 1851 scumthread (all 36 pages of it which i read), scioness talked a lot about how just being able to talk to her scumbuddy for support was doing a lot in helping her stay sane and not replace out. this post makes me feel like she doesn't have that here.

[northsidegal]

page 52, motivation to read dropping incredibly fast

[northsidegal]

so yeah i definitely ""read"" the last two pages

(i at least read scioness joking about the scum slips, which brought back some "good" memories of inferno)

anyways, rethought things
{nsg}
{oxy, pintu}
{scioness}
{skitter, ruru}

[northsidegal]

@oxy, how strong is your townread on ruru?