Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

hmmmmm thats super weak

okay but pintu was prompt to vote ruru I think? let me check

also I can explain why you egging on the fight looked like manipulation.

[Oxy]

What, exactly, is weak, Sajj?

[Scioness Sajj]

that they cannot be scum becuase of their votes on ruru

let me check tho

[skitter30]

@oxy:

A. I disagree with the premises of your hypothetical. (ie I don't think you're town). If I absolutely must indulge in your thought experiment, I'm left with pin/scioness/ofrzh/ruru.

I don't think scioness is scum:

pin/ofrzh ----> I don't know why you're ruling this one out.
pin/ruru ---> probably not super likely given his ruru vote. Not enough for me to rule it out though.
ofrzh/ruru

Like none of these seem implausible enough for me to rule out.

If I absolutely must include scioness:

scioness/pin
scioness/ofrz
scioness/ruru ----> I don't think scioness starts a push on her partner just before deadline at the end of the day1 when she wasn't going to be around.

So I don't particulartly agree with your conclusion that based on PoE, removing me/nsg/you, the obvious lynch ought to be ruru or scioness; strictly looking at teams via PoE, ofrzh or pin make sense in a bunch of pairs too. If it absolutely got down to ruru or scioness I would vote ruru, but, like, I don't get why you're creating dichotomy where it ought to be one of the two - there's a lot of other people I'd rather be voting than scioness, and one/two people I'd rather vote before ruru (ie can't decide if ofrzh goes before or after ruru atm), and either pin or ofrzh seem like reasonable options using a strictly PoE argument like you did since as far as I can tell, they fit into a bunch of pairings too.

B. Also having bad reads != being scum.

And not townreading != scumreading.

[skitter30]

@ofrhz @sajj

This is the level of associations reading that I think actually could be detrimental. Too much wifom, too many assumptions. The problem with all of the "scum!x would obviously use this strategy" is that scum!x could have simply used a different strategy.

Things I'm taking to the bank today.
ruru is town.
nsg is town.
skitter, regardless of alignment, has been making some very scummy arguments.

I've only been saying that for like the entire phase.

And like, I think the whole hypothetical is silly given this.

[Scioness Sajj]

like idk I'm leaning towards disregarding any of pintu's pairings because he is the purest being in this game (+ I don't think NSG would just throw towntells like that around)

But I don’t think their votes are something scum wouldn’t do.

[skitter30]

like idk I'm leaning towards disregarding any of pintu's pairings because he is the purest being in this game (+ I don't think NSG would just throw towntells like that around)

But I don’t think their votes are something scum wouldn’t do.

Yeah this basically.

Like if we're making pairs based strictly on PoE, and disregarding townreads on pin/scioness/ruru/ofrzh, the only pairing from that set that I find unlikely in a partner-sense is scioness/ruru. Like his reasons for eliminating pairs aren't particularly compelling for me.

[Oxy]

okay, yeah. I was worried for a bit, but I'm still happy with my vote.

[Scioness Sajj]

you make no sense oxyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

[skitter30]

okay, yeah. I was worried for a bit, but I'm still happy with my vote.

Okay, yeah, I explain why your conclusion is bad and you're waiving away the content of my point by saying that I'm scummy.

Explain you think my last few posts reaffirm your scumread on me.

[Scioness Sajj]

I mean

what from the things skitter has posted just now makes you feel stronger about your scumread on her?

[Scioness Sajj]

I mean you talk it out guys

shouldn't probably interfer here

[Oxy]

I don't do this often because I don't like walls, but let's break this down.

@oxy:

A. I disagree with the premises of your hypothetical. (ie I don't think you're town). If I absolutely must indulge in your thought experiment, I'm left with pin/scioness/ofrzh/ruru.

I don't think scioness is scum:

pin/ofrzh ----> I don't know why you're ruling this one out.

Here, Skitter implies that I haven't just expounded on my reasoning for this rather than refute it.

pin/ruru ---> probably not super likely given his ruru vote. Not enough for me to rule it out though.
ofrzh/ruru

Like none of these seem implausible enough for me to rule out.

If I absolutely must include scioness:

scioness/pin
scioness/ofrz
scioness/ruru ----> I don't think scioness starts a push on her partner just before deadline at the end of the day1 when she wasn't going to be around.

So I don't particulartly agree with your conclusion that based on PoE, removing me/nsg/you, the obvious lynch ought to be ruru or scioness; strictly looking at teams via PoE, ofrzh or pin make sense in a bunch of pairs too. If it absolutely got down to ruru or scioness I would vote ruru, but, like, I don't get why you're creating dichotomy where it ought to be one of the two - there's a lot of other people I'd rather be voting than scioness, and one/two people I'd rather vote before ruru (ie can't decide if ofrzh goes before or after ruru atm), and either pin or ofrzh seem like reasonable options using a strictly PoE argument like you did since as far as I can tell, they fit into a bunch of pairings too.

Here Skitter pretends to analyze my conclusions, but is actually analyzing my conclusions in the context of Pin+Ofrhz not being ruled out.

If you change the given, the conclusion will change.

But remember, she didn't refute, or even engage with my reasoning for that assumption.
She pretended I had given zero reasoning.

Because it's obvious, given the assumption that Pin + Ofrhz cannot be a pair, why one would want to lynch in {ruru, scioness}

B. Also having bad reads != being scum.

And not townreading != scumreading.

And that's what this entire game has been, at least since the drixx wagon. Skitter looking at my posts, ignoring key components of an argument, and then going off on a wild tangent to confuse the game state.

[Oxy]

Or rather, I was trying not to do it. Rip.

[Oxy]

I don't get why you're creating dichotomy where it ought to be one of the two - there's a lot of other people I'd rather be voting than scioness, and one/two people I'd rather vote before ruru (ie can't decide if ofrzh goes before or after ruru atm), and either pin or ofrzh seem like reasonable options using a strictly PoE argument like you did since as far as I can tell, they fit into a bunch of pairings too.

In case it wasn't clear enough, here's the key part close up.

She says she "doesn't get" why I would have made that conclusion, but that conclusion should be obvious if one considers the givens. It's okay to question the assumptions, and it's okay to question the conclusions, but here she is implying that there is no reasoning, and uses that as a springboard into talking about nonsense.

[Oxy]

Why is this effective?

Because this rabbit hole runs deep, my friends. This back and forth could go on forever.

Make an argument

Ignore key concept, come to false conclusion

Explain why that conclusion is false

Ignore key concept, come to false conclusion... and on and on til scum wins.

[Oxy]

And it's bad to actually engage with that, because then it creates the type of dynamics that make town apathetic.

Which is ironic because that's what she's scum reading me for

But it's actually her whole scum game!

[Oxy]

But if she is town, and she's just been fucking with me or fucking obtuse

then the scum team is
Scioness + ofrhz
Scioness + Pin

And if she is scum
Her partner is either Ofrhz or Pin
But really, it's fucking just Ofrhz.

[skitter30]

I don't know why you're not including pin/ofrzh.

I hate being wrong, it looks bad for any argument I'm making, but I just don't see two scum jumping from a live mislynch wagon, to a L-4 wagon that no one is talking about but them, so late in the day. I just don't.

You mean this?

I actually didn't see this post.

I don't know what this is referring to. Which wagon did they jump off of, and which wagon did they join?

Are you referring to how they both voted ruru at the end of the day? They didn't leave the same wagon (ofrzh wasn't voting, and pin left my wagon), and pin switched his vote back after like three posts. It makes the team more implausible but I don't see this as a reason to rule them out completely.

If that's not what you're talking about idk what this is referring to.

[skitter30]

I don't get why you're creating dichotomy where it ought to be one of the two - there's a lot of other people I'd rather be voting than scioness, and one/two people I'd rather vote before ruru (ie can't decide if ofrzh goes before or after ruru atm), and either pin or ofrzh seem like reasonable options using a strictly PoE argument like you did since as far as I can tell, they fit into a bunch of pairings too.

In case it wasn't clear enough, here's the key part close up.

She says she "doesn't get" why I would have made that conclusion, but that conclusion should be obvious if one considers the givens. It's okay to question the assumptions, and it's okay to question the conclusions, but here she is implying that there is no reasoning, and uses that as a springboard into talking about nonsense.

The givens are: town me/you/nsg.

I don't understand the reasoning you're using to get from your given to get to your conclusion.

(and lol at being ok to question the assumptions because I litearlly did that yesterday and you objected to that)

[Oxy]

And you know what? You probably are just being obtuse this game

because dino scum read exactly two people

and they were Ofrhz + scioness

and he dead now

[Oxy]

And this shit isn't fun because this game is fucking solved

so i'm prod dodging til the end

[skitter30]

And this shit isn't fun

so i'm prod dodging til the end

this is basically what I want to do too, yay for us.

[Scioness Sajj]

[Scioness Sajj]

I have been rereading and that ruru wagon is weirdly composed.