Newbie 1859 (Game Over)

[Scioness Sajj]

nothing in 1992 really refers to my answer to skitter.

seriously.

you have made a case with reasons why you think I am scummy, but didn't brought that nk thing up. only when ruru said it is scummy you have ''reminded'' yourself about it. that's what happend in the thread and that's from where I draw my conclusions.

[Scioness Sajj]

^ I just realized I never explicitly said I think ruru is town. For the record, ruru is town by reverse PoE or something.

Scioness suggested these ruru scumteams:

- skitter - I feel like if skitter and ruru were to stage a 1v1, they could do better than skitter's "I'm gut-scumleaning ruru but I can't explain why" and ruru's "OMG skitter sucks because she keeps misunderstanding me and Oxy!!!!" Like who would stage something like that? this pairing isn't very likely to me for those reasons.
- Oxy - Scioness is willing to sheep Mathdino on NSG but not willing to sheep Mathdino's most confident town read? ..........??? I'm not even going to entertain this because I was independently townreading Oxy before Mathdino even showed up to the game.
- me - This is Scioness's most plausible ruru scumteam. The best thing I can do here is to try to convince her that I'm town. But if Scioness is scum and she wants to push through a ruru lynch, she's probably going to have to scum read me no matter what. So really I'm just going to be defending myself for everyone else in the game.

y'all seem pretty convinced NSG is town, so VOTE: Scioness Sajj. Every scumteam I can think of has Scioness in it. This reason is in addition to those ^ really bad scumteams she suggested.

Gonna try looking from another angle. I was thinking that Math being targeted night 1 was odd. Like I had a feeling he wasn’t a PR based on how he took control of the game from the outset, and the only other reason to lynch him otherwise is his ability to game solve.

Who do you think should have been a nk then?

Scummy post...

I do think Scioness asking me who the nk should have been was scummy. It was indirectly asking me who I thought the PRs were.

It took you 500 posts to mention that my asking about nk was 'scummy' after you have made your mind about me being pretty scummy and voting me.

[Scioness Sajj]

ohwait lmao

26

[Scioness Sajj]

28 whatever

[pinturicchio]

Wait a fucking minute

[ofrhz]

I’ll break down my last response line by line to make it more clear, but earlier during the nk thing, I was explaining it to skitter, who did not see the scum motivation in that post.

That vote on you was clearly based on PoE from my townreads. “Every scumteam I can think of has Scioness in it.” I was and still am more confident in my townreads than my scumreads.

I already asked Oxy why he thought you were scummy. Perhaps you missed it. Ruru also laid out a very detailed case.

[Oxy]

more ofrhz iso. this is where shit really starts not looking good for our hero

Spoiler:

I thought Sajj's case on you (ruru) was kinda weak. I don't really know how to explain it, but even though Scioness and I both thought you were scummy, her weak case against you made you seem more town in comparison. Does that even make sense? So after your post 850, I was very confused, and had you as null for a little bit.

What definitely changed my mind was skitter's 1033. Her analysis of the game made a lot of sense to me when she said "Hey, notice how ruru's been scumreading me for like two weeks but took her sweet time to vote me when a wagon actually popped up?"

This is weird
Ofrhz's vote on ruru came in 1023, 10 posts prior to 1033. If there was a turning point in his read on ruru, it had to be when ruru voted skitter.

I feel like this should be memorable, so I find this scummy

After Skitter makes 1033, ofrhz references ruru one time, saying "Ofc, I expect everyone to focus ruru D2"
This is consistent with his timeline.

But then why is his initial reaction on D2 to vote Sajj? Quotes are in the previous broken spoiler post.

Well, news of a Mathdino NK would have made Sajj look scummier, explaining his vote on Sajj,

but then why the switch back to ruru? Did Ofrhz decide that a wifom kill was more likely?

Also Mathdino townread a lot of people, so he has to be wrong somewhere. What I was trying to say earlier is that if Mathdino was wrong about one thing, he could have been wrong about NSG. But yeah, I'm probably wrong here, since I'm clearly not very good at this game lol.

I don't really see ruru and skitter. They had a bunch of interactions, and I don't see them as being faked.

He doesn't HAVE to be wrong. team could be exactly Ofrhz + Sajj, or either of those + Pin, since, as ofrhz understood somewhere earlier, Pin was dino's lightest read.

@pin - I've been townleaning you for at least a few real-life days. I dont have much time now, but I will go back and find specific posts later. Please remind me if I forget!

was this ever followed up on?

You are impling here that you wanted people to scumread ruru with you but you never made a case on her or tried to convince people to vote ruru.
Also - why were you upset that my case on ruru went in so late when you have already said you stopped scumleaning on her? 778 you have unvoted ruru for a reason stated below skitter's quote or no reason given at all. 895 you said you are townleaning her.

I usually question the person I'm voting for, which I did with ruru. The thing with ruru was, her D1 answers were always in the realm of "believable but iffy." But I shouldn't have to give a 5 paragraph essay with quotes on why I think ruru is scum, because I personally find those hard to read. I know you like to vote someone and write a convincing case on someone and that's fine, but I don't play like that. I feel like most of this is you being like "omg ofrhz has a different playstyle than me."

I was annoyed because wagons can't form if we jump on and off; not only does ruru not feel much pressure, but other people pay attention to other things like NSG who had three(?) votes on her at the same time.

I unvoted ruru because I didn't think there was going to be any pressure on her and wanted town to focus on something. I was basically nullreading ruru because I was unsure at 895. She had answered my questions and yours by that point.

Ofrhz unvotes ruru in 778 because he wants town to focus on something, but he doesn't vote anywhere again until voting ruru again in 1023. If Ofrhz wanted to organize town efforts, why let his vote sit idle?

^ I just realized I never explicitly said I think ruru is town. For the record, ruru is town by reverse PoE or something.

Scioness suggested these ruru scumteams:

- skitter - I feel like if skitter and ruru were to stage a 1v1, they could do better than skitter's "I'm gut-scumleaning ruru but I can't explain why" and ruru's "OMG skitter sucks because she keeps misunderstanding me and Oxy!!!!" Like who would stage something like that? this pairing isn't very likely to me for those reasons.
- Oxy - Scioness is willing to sheep Mathdino on NSG but not willing to sheep Mathdino's most confident town read? ..........??? I'm not even going to entertain this because I was independently townreading Oxy before Mathdino even showed up to the game.
- me - This is Scioness's most plausible ruru scumteam. The best thing I can do here is to try to convince her that I'm town. But if Scioness is scum and she wants to push through a ruru lynch, she's probably going to have to scum read me no matter what. So really I'm just going to be defending myself for everyone else in the game.

y'all seem pretty convinced NSG is town, so VOTE: Scioness Sajj. Every scumteam I can think of has Scioness in it. This reason is in addition to those ^ really bad scumteams she suggested.

The section on Ofrhz + Ruru is still just as scummy as it was when we all talked about it.

[pinturicchio]

Vote Count 1.08

Not Voting [4]:

northsidegal, Drixx, pinturicchio, skitter30

Drixx [3]:

ofrhz, Oxy, ruru [L-2]

Scioness Sajj [1]:

eth0s

Oxy [1]:

Scioness Sajj

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2018-04-03 09:00:00) on

April 3, 2018

.

This is after skitter unvoted Drixx

Vote Count 1.16

drixx [5]: skitter30, ofrhz, Mathdino, Oxy, Scioness Sajj [Lynch]

skitter30 [2]:

ruru, pinturicchio

Oxy [2]:

Drixx, northsidegal

With

9

alive, it takes

5

to lynch.

Day ends in (expired on 2018-04-05 09:00:00) on

April 5, 2018

.

And this is the lynch.

I was so focused on skitter and Scioness today that I forgot about Drixx' wagons 1 and 2, for fucks sake, it's so obvious now. Oxy and ofrhz were both on Drixx' wagons, and are both voting now for Scioness. Oxy's "atempt to hammer in 48 hours" and now analyzing ofrhz again is so fucking obvious now.

[Scioness Sajj]

I’ll break down my last response line by line to make it more clear, but earlier during the nk thing, I was explaining it to skitter, who did not see the scum motivation in that post.

That vote on you was clearly based on PoE from my townreads. “Every scumteam I can think of has Scioness in it.” I was and still am more confident in my townreads than my scumreads.

I already asked Oxy why he thought you were scummy. Perhaps you missed it. Ruru also laid out a very detailed case.

Yeah but between me asking about nk and your case on me passed 5 hours.
And it's true ruru brought it up and skitter asked about it and you decided to answer.
I still understand it as you not bringing something that you found scummy, at all. I see no reason why town you wouldn't comment on the issue itself but only when somebody else mentions it.

Still poe or not, shouldn't you scumreads add to the poe?

[Oxy]

Yo, Pin, fill me in because I'm not following mate?

[pinturicchio]

I reread what I posted and I think that's pretty clear what I'm implying. Not giving you more content to answer with wallposts and rethoric

[Oxy]

Okay, here's my best stab. Feel free to correct me.

Prior to the first drixx wagon,
Ruru was voting NSG at the time
Ofrhz was voting drixx

You're saying the plan was to wait for skitter to vote for *someone* and then for both Ofrhz and I - the scum team you're proposing - would be well positioned on the wagon for an early mislynch. A mislynch that we would then both claim to endorse because... lol lurkers?

and when skitter chose drixx, we decided to continue the plan even though I had already made a case that Drixx's lurking wasn't AI?

And then Ofrhz, my partner, asks me in the thread at eod to please switch from skitter to drixx, so that we can once again be on the same wagon?

And now I'm doing a full ISO of my partner where I highlight every scummy thing he's done this game?

This is what it sounds like you are implying, but it doesn't seem obvious to me. That's why I asked.

[Scioness Sajj]

I don't remember any compelling reasons posted by either one on why I can be scum.

Pintu had somehow wonky but reasonable case on me, even though it was mostly based on oxy v me being tvs.

[skitter30]

UNVOTE:

[skitter30]

Also I don't know if partners vote together that often. I actually think that partners are more likely to avoid voting together than to vote together.

[pinturicchio]

For fucks sake I don't give you anything and you still manage to convince me. Ok I'll drop that, and will stop looking for asociations until we have another flip. It's pretty obvious that the scumteam is doing a good job at doing WIFOM shit to either separate themselves or something like that

[Scioness Sajj]

jesus idek

I'm pretty sure there is a scumteam in ruru oxy and ofrhz. they have so strongly overlapping reads that I can't really tell who's with who anymore.

[Oxy]

oooh an unvote from skitter - that's interesting.

Sup, skitter? You've been hinting at dropping your vote for a while. What made it happen?

[Oxy]

More ofrhz posts - mostly scummy stuff
There's more to be done, but I'm taking another break.

Spoiler:

@scioness- That’s just basic deduction. Like do you still think ruru and skitter are a thing? They were slinging mud at each other just now. And this is all staged you say?

I’ve quite clearly told you in D1 why my vote was parked on ruru. I have said why I voted her again, and for like the third time, I unvoted her because town was being dysfunctional and it would’ve been more productive to work with others to lynch likely partners of ruru instead of pursuing ruru by myself.

Oh my god, haven’t read pedits.

But you went from voting ruru voting, to not voting, to voting ruru. How did this help town concentrate?

@skitter - I'm willing to talk about ruru a bit more. I think I may be of some help here, because I went down some sort of ruru rabbit hole in D1, and I'd like to think I got out of it. More in spoiler if you're interested.

ruru- I think there are two things about ruru:
1) She can be passive and non-confrontational. I was seeing this as scum indicative, when I don't think it is anymore. It actually makes some sense, especially when she has talked about shying away from aggressive players on other forums.
On the other hand, ruru responds to people who engage with her. This is even if they have been consistently misinterpreting her (sorry, but it's true). This is one pro-town thing about her.
2) Ruru also had this mindset that we needed more input from everyone in the game before fully concluding who is scummiest. This kinda makes sense in an idealist way; if there are two lurkers, the scumteam could possibly be in the two lurkers, and all the efforts spent scumhunting would go to waste. I know you disagree with this, but I think it's pretty clear that ruru doesn't like to commit to a scumread until she has the "full picture" if you will.

Once I established ruru's mindset, I think her playstyle was pretty consistent.

For instance, ruru's L-1 vote on the failed Drixx wagon. This vote was by far the least passive thing ruru did, but it makes sense in the context of her wanting to pressure lurkers to post asap. If ruru was scum, I don't think she would have jumped on that Drixx wagon so quickly, because A) she is passive, and B) because she is passive, I think she would have consulted her scum partner before putting that L-1 vote. She most likely didn't consult her scum partner, because she dropped her vote really soon after Oxy asked her to.

About ruru not confronting people: Really early game, I left my vote on her with very little explanation, and she didn't engage. And later in D1, I voted her with even less explanation, and she didn't engage. She did respond after I started probing her, asking more concrete questions like "why did you think skitter was scummy?" And she also responded when Scioness dropped a really long case on her. I thought this was scummy too, but given how consistently passive she is, I don't think she's doing it on purpose.

I'm kind of lost (read really lost) in your back and forth with ruru though. Which wagon is this referring to?
If you're talking about ruru not engaging with you at the start of D2, I find that kind of an odd take to have, considering you weren't really in the thread at first, came in a little bit later, and immediately engaged with her. And also think about what I said about ruru generally being passive.

If there are other ruru things or if you disagree with my analysis, I'd be happy to talk about it. You'll have to point them out for me, because I'm having a hard time following all the threads in this game. I don't mind walls that much, but maybe hide things in a spoiler if it gets really long? for the sanity of others
I really want to talk about Scioness though. I think you're giving her the benefit of the doubt where you have no reason to, like answering for Scioness about the possible PR fishing question. I think Oxy and ruru are hitting the right notes, but I'll try to boil down my thoughts about Scioness in another post.

Also, what do you think of the Drixx lynch? Scum or town motivated?

I said this at the time...

This seems like a very good analysis of a slot that Ofrhz had to use reverse poe to start town reading. Why was this sort of reasoning not the initial reason Ofrhz stopped scum reading ruru?

3. I think I said, in the same post where I unvoted, that I wouldn't mind focusing on Drixx (other people had Drixx on their radar for being inactive, not explaining mysterious posts), but my two townreads (skitter and Oxy) at the time were on NSG. I didn't quite get why, so I asked people why. Soon later, NSG popped in with her rant about how difficult this game was to get into or something. skitter unvoted after that. Math showed up afterwards, so a lot was happening then. I'm not sure what you expect me to do in terms of helping town focus there. I later voted Drixx because I thought he was also a bit suspect (but less so than ruru), and that was part of forming a town consensus, no?

This is an excellent answer to the question of his idle vote.

Oh I see what you were getting at now Scioness (thanks to both you and Oxy for being patient with me. In hindsight, I get that my op was confusing).

No my original post was to try and avoid a ruru mislynch. I think it's unconvincing to push for a ruru lynch without considering who she can be teamed with (people have since disagreed but I'm ignoring that for now). So like, say if someone wants to lynch ruru, I would ask them who ruru could be teamed with. And Scioness said it could be skitter, Oxy, or me.

If Scioness kept trying to push for a ruru lynch

, I would expect Scioness to start scumleaning me (or I guess nullreading would work too in hindsight), because Scioness needs to come up with a viable partner for ruru. (Does this part make sense at least?)

If ruru flips green, wouldn't that vindicate me??? I wasn't trying to avoid a lynch on me (today or tomorrow). I was trying to make people think more carefully before pushing a lynch on ruru because I think she's town with no viable scumpartners (I'm open to reconsidering this if anyone disagrees). That's why I was (am) defending myself - to make people think more critically about a ruru lynch.

No, I'm still townreading ruru, so I don't think Scioness was bussing ruru.

If you think ruru is town than you should defend her and not youself.

By defending myself, I would help people eliminate possible scumteams with ruru in it, so I am defending ruru by extension. Or that's how I see it anyway.

I mean, I think I am defending ruru irregardless?? I didn't go through the trouble of rereading her ISO and typing my thoughts out for nothing.

This is still a scummy answer to this round about way of defending ruru.

I kind of disagree with a lot of what you're saying, especially the part where I'm scum, but I guess it also seems pretty town-motivated to me

This stood out to me earlier as a "not sure if scum ruru or just passive town ruru," but mostly relevant since she's talking about pin's game analysis here.

pedit: I see your post pin. I'm still townreading ruru (in spite of that weird ruru post I just quoted). I'm fine with your vote but I think we should spend more time today to figure out where we are on ruru (and scioness. I haven't forgotten about you).

More undercutting of town reads

[Oxy]

For fucks sake I don't give you anything and you still manage to convince me. Ok I'll drop that, and will stop looking for asociations until we have another flip. It's pretty obvious that the scumteam is doing a good job at doing WIFOM shit to either separate themselves or something like that

<3

[Scioness Sajj]

NSG is not scum.
Skitter is not scum.
Pintu is also most likely not scum.

[Scioness Sajj]

Do I trust my townreads too much?

[Oxy]

@pin I know it's just walls of quotes and single lines of commentary,

but If you can stand it, take a look at some of the spoilers

and tell me what you think.

no poe required.

[Oxy]

same to everybody

[skitter30]

oooh an unvote from skitter - that's interesting.

Sup, skitter? You've been hinting at dropping your vote for a while. What made it happen?

I know I'm going wrong somewhere but idk where exactly. I don't know if ofrhz is the scummiest person right now.

Also I think you may have just towntold in a way that's more meaningful to me than math's argument, which means I have to like start from scratch.

Also I've been on phone between class all day and I really need to read the last few pages consecutively in a bloc before I can figure out what I think about them (ie when I get home in a few hours)