Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[the worst]

Btw re oxy weekend thing : I need to discern how much I want his flip

[Oxy]

@mathdino I'm kind of with Ruru on this. If you are town, you might be night killed. Thus, we should put you in the best position to give us a solid read on NSG today. And there is time for it.

What am I missing?

VOTE: NSG
post or perish

[Mathdino]

you guys realise that i gained the 100% NSG ability because she told me her scum meta and i just happened to keep on top of how her scumrange has expanded (hint: it hasn't expanded at the rate her townrange has)

as long as you don't fall into the activity tell trap it's not hard to figure out what kinds of posts she's incapable of making as scum

if she never makes any posts like that then she's just scum gg

my concern is that wagoning NSG tends to distract her from actually doing anything AI lol

[Oxy]

I guess I can't really argue with you over the conditions necessary for town!NSG to produce town AI content.

This, then.

VOTE: Draynth
HURT: Ofrhz

[the worst]

Let's not.

Why not?

Sorry for ignoring you.

In my understanding NSG is one of the best town players around atm

If she's scum we can lynch her

It is good value letting her catch up...and preferably before eod

[AP]

DOES ANYONE ELSE THINK PROMISING THINGS AND NOT DELIVERING IS A SCUMTELL

#NOBAMBOOZLE

That depends on whether your promise is made before, during or after.

[Draynth]

Alright i'm actually catching up this time, yesterday ended up being super busy and I didn't get a chance to post anything after reading.

[ruru]

Hmm

I kinda think Md might be town (prompted in part because 1348 seemed town-motivated) and ofrhz might be scum now

I don't like ofrhz's latest conspiracy theory, it feels forced and I feel like he's not really a conspiracy theory type and it kind of directly contradicts some of my reasons for not wanting to vig him, and vigging him seems mechanically correct

And I guess ofrhz's flip would also help sort Oxy

So... I guess I'm here now too?

VOTE: Draynth
HURT: ofrhz

If she's scum we can lynch her

This statement feels a bit scummy to me honestly

[UglyDuck]

HOT TAKE: town is scumreading me and scum is afraid to talk about a definitive read on me

I am confused, do I misunderstand that you think I am skum from your pool of [Swan,Draynth,Scioness]?
I don't care all that much about the specific skum read on myself, but like... if town is skum reading you.. and I am not skum reading you.. how do you arrive at Skum!UD?

i mean the rest of your list was fine so i'm just surprised that your take on draynth is bad

he basically had 2 mentions of me that had content

1. math is town because effort

2. okay fine you miiiight be right *talks about something else*

And then there are the numerous posts like this... you seem like too good of a player to think that just because you put in effort it makes you Town.

[UglyDuck]

HOT TAKE: town is scumreading me and scum is afraid to talk about a definitive read on me

I am confused, do I misunderstand that you think I am skum from your pool of [Swan,Draynth,Scioness]?
I don't care all that much about the specific skum read on myself, but like... if town is skum reading you.. and I am not skum reading you.. how do you arrive at Skum!UD?

i mean the rest of your list was fine so i'm just surprised that your take on draynth is bad

he basically had 2 mentions of me that had content

1. math is town because effort

2. okay fine you miiiight be right *talks about something else*

And then there are the numerous posts like this... you seem like too good of a player to think that just because you put in effort it makes you Town.

PPE to Dino - I suppose upon thought you did not say that "skum is town reading you". so that point is negated. but I stand by the second part.

[ruru]

Vig shot count

ofrhz (5)

: Mathdino, Oxy, pinturicchio, UglyDuck, ruru

UglyDuck (2)

: AP, ofrhz

northsidegal (1)

: the worst

Not Voting (5)

: Draynth, Sunshine13, northsidegal, skitter30, Scioness Sajj

[the worst]

In post 1429, the worst wrote:
If she's scum we can lynch her


This statement feels a bit scummy to me honestly

do you think I'm her partner trying to get her into the next day phase? or do you think I'm town trying to set her up for a mislynch by recommending against her lynch?
i'd like a response to this plz

[UglyDuck]

I think UgD has a lot of onions.
Maybe hasnt read a lot of wiki stuff or talked through with a lot ot MS people

is this regarding my comment about the blatantly not ok comment from the player that knew they had bailed and then continued to give reads on the game?

[the worst]

not really

at some point i'll dig up posts of yours which present as uninformed onions but i am not committing to a timeframe as it has nothing to do with this game
i also want to talk meta with you at some point if you honestly think it's garbage
it might be better if we talk this through postgame??


p.s. are you a d&d player?

[UglyDuck]

not really

at some point i'll dig up posts of yours which present as uninformed onions but i am not committing to a timeframe as it has nothing to do with this game
i also want to talk meta with you at some point if you honestly think it's garbage
it might be better if we talk this through postgame??


p.s. are you a d&d player?

find with post game, you seem genuine enough. also, not to re open - but I didn't say meta was garbage.. just that using it as a defense is skummy.

And I love DnD, I have never played it online, so if you are asking in regards to that, no I am not.

[UglyDuck]

not really

at some point i'll dig up posts of yours which present as uninformed onions but i am not committing to a timeframe as it has nothing to do with this game
i also want to talk meta with you at some point if you honestly think it's garbage
it might be better if we talk this through postgame??


p.s. are you a d&d player?

find with post game, you seem genuine enough. also, not to re open - but I didn't say meta was garbage.. just that using it as a defense is skummy.

And I love DnD, I have never played it online, so if you are asking in regards to that, no I am not.

**fine with the post game***

[ruru]

do you think I'm her partner trying to get her into the next day phase? or do you think I'm town trying to set her up for a mislynch by recommending against her lynch?
i'd like a response to this plz

I didn't have a specific situation in mind

It's more like
1. We don't know who's scum. If Md is town and gets NKed, we lose a lot of ability to sort NSG. So just kind of not being worried about that is weird to me I guess
2. I would worry about any specific scum player getting harder to lynch as the game progresses. The most likely outcome of D1 is generally lynching town, meaning the ratio of scum:town will probably be higher on D2, and we need majority vote to lynch. So saying we can "just" lynch someone is also weird to me because scum are also trying to win

[ruru]

@UD thoughts on 1305 while you're here if you don't mind?

[the worst]

Interesting... I think scum are easier to lynch later. My experience with d1 lynches when town hasnt been so hot.

[brassherald]

Votecount 1.14

Draynth(3)

~ northsidegal(78), Oxy(198), ruru(109)

UglyDuck(2)

~ AP(84), pinturicchio(76)

Scioness Sajj(2)

~ Mathdino(175), ofrhz(131)

Oxy(2)

~ skitter30(60), the worst(305)

ofrhz(1)

~ UglyDuck(47)

Players dead:

Not Voting (3): Draynth(39), Sunshine13(35), Scioness Sajj(74)

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-04-30 16:45:00)

MOD REMINDERS

Scioness Sajj will be VLA until Monday April 30, 2018.

[UglyDuck]

@UD thoughts on 1305 while you're here if you don't mind?

coming. you asked a lot of questions one sec.

[ruru]

Interesting... I think scum are easier to lynch later. My experience with d1 lynches when town hasnt been so hot.

I think so too, but I also think to lynch a specific scum player is harder as scum's influence grows (in other words, I think scum are more likely to get lynched, but it is easier for them to control who gets bussed).

Playing as scum I tend to think "ok who do we mislynch today"

Playing as town so far I tend to wonder things like "what if X is actually scum and we let them live today and majority never agrees on it later and they just barely live"

[UglyDuck]

1) ruru. Huge change of mind on this I know. Whatever, hold it against me. content plus ideas about vig claim tactics (regardless of their usefulness) seem super Towny.

I'm not sure what to think about this

On the surface I kind of want to sr this but I guess can see from someone who hasn't played with me before why my earlier, less serious posts were less town-indicative than my more recent ones. (Compared to the people I have played with before, where me not being a nervous wreck is probably the strongest towntell)

So umm

What makes you think I didn't pick a setup without a vig and then push the D1 viglynch idea to PR hunt?

2) Math - at this point I just don't see why skum would put themselves out at much as much as they have been. At first it was whatever, talky-talky, but now it has been more directed. Personal Predisposition- I don't like when players reference other games, but outside of that.. just everything seems to be towny. Obv a flip will show more, but I don't see a point in even considering this today.

Could you skim this (his most recent scumgame last I checked) and tell me if it's still AI for Md? Like I'm not asking you to sr him but I feel like posting a lot / directing town and posting in favor of mechanically correct town play are both NAI for him so there should be other reasons if you're strongly tring him

3) TW - Pretty much the same as Math. The bummer set up would be if it was TW!Math because we all would just lose. But still, don't see a point in considering this before a flip.

But

why

? Is the appearance of high effort town-indicative, especially when the player is experienced?

What do you think of TW opposing the viglynch idea?

You recently said TW was acting defensive, and that scum are more likely to be defensive than town, and implied that his defense was fallacious. Did that damage your TR of him at all?

Tomorrow - whatever, we can re-evaluate i guess, but I just don't get it today.

This feels a bit hedgy. Do you think we will likely have more information on live!Oxy tomorrow, compared to any other player in the game?

3) Skitter - The perfect middle. Makes me lean skummy, but null for today.

What do you think about her suggesting vig should shoot without the target claiming?

1) Draynth - While I feel Skum would normally be more apparent when so many drivers are present in the game, I can't get over the timing of their reactions. Everytime they come up in conversation they then come into the game. I suppose this is what lazy town would do as well, but just their overall demeanor feels off.

Isn't this also a bit true of you though? (But, I do agree)

Like I don't really like that there was a big post promised on Md+TW and I had to ask about it a few times after the wagon on you died down

2) ofhrz - There is just skum here. pushed me super hard - like forever. Has literally found every avenue, even ones I haven't responded in, to find skum reads on me. The fact that (shame to point admitted), their skum pool equals exactly the people lurking thus far in the game is super skummy. And also, the vote me, unvote me, vote me again thing just feels skummy. If it was one, and then a stay, that would be one thing, but to jump off to jump back on when there is another wagon just feels like skum trying to make a TvT wagon scenario.

What do you think about my reasoning in 1276? In particular, ofrhz defending Oxy

3) Sunshine - There whole bit with me felt off. The response felt off. Them pinging me on whatever the eff "laser theory" is was also weird. Still don't really get it, but it doesn't matter... D1 reads area D1 reads. You get them how you get them. To call them out in their fashion seems over aggressive from an otherwise non-aggressive player.

I keep going back and forth between "scum probably wouldn't do this" and "this is scum LAMISTing" on him

Like his first posts were clearly designed to let me know he'd read my meta for example

His tone sometimes reminds me of scum!me

I kind of want to see him use his vote more tbh...

Kay. Sorry I haven't seemed around. I have a tendency to read more than that I should post.

1) the bit about me and you and picking vig and all that: mainly because you were not the one to bring it up, just the one to come up with the first good (or at least thoughtful) approach to the situation.
2) Math AI from other games: previously stated - I do not give merit to players this early in the game regarding their AI interactions based on previous games. FWIW - I read your link. Noted, still to my POV for now.
3) Math and TW as TRs - I do not think it is likely that a) TW and Math are both skum, or that b) TW and Math are both Town. But... specifically today, which is the relevant part at any given point, I would rather lynch elsewhere than risk that coin flip.
4) Oxy - You kind of are quote block accusing me here. I am not saying they will have any obv upside to another player, but I think they are Town today and they are pushing around a lot. Lots of interactions + a flip equals more useful than players with less interactions + a flip.
5) Skitter - First off. mb. Based on post I am assuming you prefer she and I have been referring to you as he - sorry. In regards to the no claim Vig thing - this is part of what brings them to middle from skum. This makes sense. IF we knew there was a Vig in the game, then the claim concept would have some value, but because we do not actually know it to be true it really just gives an additional avenue for skum to PR hunt.
6) Daynth - we seem to agree. I can't really argue with your assessment on me seeming similar, but I have been told I think more than I post. In regards to the post I think I remember - something like "post your TW and Math Wall"... honestly.. I don't like useless walls. See the points above... I feel like I pretty much wrapped it up in two sentences Wagon timing is what you want to make of it - not much I can say to that.
7) even tho I am TRing Oxy, the assumption on D1 that two exact players are any exact alignment is what you should exactly NOT do. That aside, it just comes down to the fact that this is how skum wins games - postponing games to points where they own the sway of the field. I am not saying your read does not have merit, but when you factor in the above plus the WIMFO of all the variables (what if there is no vig shot - did they shoot the same, is there no vig, etc?... and all the other stuff)... whatever, as I have previously stated I feel like discussing unknown PR stuff at this point in the game is more beneficial to skum than it is to town since Skum knows the truth and we do not.
8) This is just you responding I think, I do not see a question.

[Draynth]

pagetop

pedit NO

I am laughing at you for this.

I also laughed at this

Also reading mohab/nsg as town for completely nai reasons, leaving me 10 people to sort. yay.

Wait what

Him saying he will go read some cases but not doing so feels like stalling
Not voting Oxy despite the “Oxy sounds forced” narrative he’s pushing
I mean, he could be lazy town... or he could be lazy scum. He’s null at best

DOES ANYONE ELSE THINK PROMISING THINGS AND NOT DELIVERING IS A SCUMTELL

These are just two posts that I quoted while reading, there were more.
Basically everyone seems convinced that me saying I'd try to read a game to come up with meta reads and then not doing it is scummy.
A) I've already expressed that I dislike using meta personally. That doesnt excuse myself from not doing what I said I'd do mind.
B) I'm busy
C) If y'all are so obsessed with meta then why the hell have none of you done a meta check on me?

Seriously, people keep using a blanket excuse of it's old, etc. but wouldn't this solve most of the issues that people have with believing I'm town?
Like I'm happy to link games of both alignments if people aren't arsed looking through past topics.
I just find it hilarious how many people here are reading people based on meta, then refusing to do the same for me even though the biggest reason for scumreading me can easily be seen as a NAI trait in my previous games (I have a history of being super lazy when I shouldn't be).
I'm not trying to say that me doing this is a good thing, it routinely leads to me shooting myself in my foot, but it's a fact nonetheless.

[Draynth]

Anyway, Oxy is scum

VOTE: Oxy