NY214: Project Pinecone (Game over! Town wins!)

[xyzzy]

OMGUS is another example of a buzzword that doesn't provide valid reasoning or insight onto something

It

is

my bias. But it's provided by experience.

unless it secretly started getting used differently in the past decade without me noticing, OMGUS is reserved for a specific situation—it's for when you abruptly start scum reading someone after they start scum reading you for seemingly no reason other than that they're scum reading you; dismissing it out of hand isn't a great idea because there are plenty of legitimate situations where a vote has absolutely no merit and this is a super effective shorthand for discussing that fact.

anyway hey guess what: the skywagon is bad

[the worst]

anyway hey guess what: the skywagon is bad

just about to catch up and caught this
why/

[xyzzy]

it feels very much like most of the people on it just voted for her and then came up with post hoc justifications for their votes. the closest anyone has really come to offering a justification is either "I think this exact group of people are all scum together and this is the one from the group I want to lynch first," "her posts are all fluff and no content," and "she did something I didn't like on page 5." the first reason is just ridiculous because we're not to a stage in the game where working out the entire scum team is possible, the second I just don't agree with, and the third was irrelevant by the time the wagon actually happened.

[Skygazer]

Skygazer, what do you like about my big catchup post? Because you said you liked the post but there's alot there and seems like a big blanket over alot of junk.

I really like the stream of conscious catch-up in the beginning of that post, it seems natural, it feels like you're putting quite a bit of your thoughts out there right off the bat which reads as town to me. I'm also liking that you're asking some good preliminary questions to get a feel for other players' outlook on the game, and putting all of your reads so far right out there on the table. The post seems pretty transparent with regards to your thoughts which imo indicates town.

[Raskolnikov]

prodge

ultra super quick skim suggests sky isn't that big a deal
taly if I have to guess is scumread via the similar reason people actually didnt like him in the popularity contest where people thought his super happy tone was insincere and he was a fake person
flub I could see being scum, game complaints and frustration feel fake, talking about dave interaction reads super storytellingy and kind of a ridiculous narrative (stretch)
andrius eh kinda dont like him but huge catchup beyond what anyoned consider necessary realistically more likely town effort. somewhat too many "we'll see how this goes" things though kinda wishy washy

VOTE: flubb

isod just these from vc, gotta run but I also remember really liking inferno and brass here too if that helps

thankfully this deadline is enough ill be free monday tuesday to dive back into this

[HitAlt]

At any rate his nonsensical babble about having a team-solve and trying to push that through is, if not scummy, certainly bad play

I'm better at detecting those kind of moves though.
And I do not mind stirring the soup any chance I get because I already have a large spreadsheet brewing..

[HitAlt]

Alignment. Alignment. Location.

[the worst]

it feels very much like most of the people on it just voted for her and then came up with post hoc justifications for their votes. the closest anyone has really come to offering a justification is either "I think this exact group of people are all scum together and this is the one from the group I want to lynch first," "her posts are all fluff and no content," and "she did something I didn't like on page 5." the first reason is just ridiculous because we're not to a stage in the game where working out the entire scum team is possible, the second I just don't agree with, and the third was irrelevant by the time the wagon actually happened.

I like this

[Taly]

taly if I have to guess is scumread via the similar reason people actually didnt like him in the popularity contest where people thought his super happy tone was insincere and he was a fake person

I mentally wiped almost all my reads earlier because of how much I hated the interactions, responses I got, and posts on the previous page.

This gamestate's corrosive for town. I'm going to catch-up in a few hours. I'm not replying to anything before then.

[Taly]

But I do love that

Hit

didn't even notice my existence but w/e

[the worst]

VOTE: Flubber pretty comfortable here

[Taly]

But I do love that

Hit

didn't even notice my existence but w/e

((Just a disclaimer given the atmosphere on a few pages: I do not make personal posts, ever, in Mafia - so even if I sound sassy or bitchy - this is me in Mafia. It's my playstyle... usually when I dislike a game narrative.))

[Taly]

Actually, I read through the whole game, am caught up now.

LORDE

, GIVE ME TACT.

POSSESSED EVA GREEN,

YOU HELP ME TOO.

[Taly]

I said it in the sign ups, and I'll say it again here, I'm out chilling out so many people right now.

I'm chill as a cucumber.

Gustavo is no chill.

Inferno, no chill.

Me, Cooler than being cool. (I'm ice cold) Alright, alright, alright, alright... and so on.

Don't like this post. Useless.

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Wouldn't surprise me at all if {profii, inferno, gustavo} is all-town. Last two have tunnely playstyles but yeah that's NAI. Still suspect skygazer but this is good too.

Also brassherald is town.

And how is

brass

town again?

Why are you so sure

Gustavo/Inferno/profii

? At this point, you haven't really said anything about the

Inferno/Gustavo

1v1, even though it was escalating.

Also, I think that the definition of being evasive is something like “avoiding commitment by responding indirectly.” And responding to everything I say by saying I’m a liar is a a pretty good way of doing that, wouldn’t you agree?

I wasn’t avoiding commitment to anything though and I feel like if I see somebody lying, it’s more important to call that out immediately. You probably shouldn’t have lied. I get you don’t think you lied, but unfortunately you did.

It’s better not to make assumptions and posting them as fact.

And this, everyone, is the post that makes me believe the push on

Gustavo

isn't justified - or at least based on scum-indicative reasons.

I don't see the point in this entire interaction, tbh.

ausuka town!

Chickadee

??? !

I will always defend myself. Don’t say anything negative about me and I won’t have to respond.

We could end this day with s profli lynch. His buddies will kill me and everyone is happy.

This sounds lots like "Don't scumread me and everything will be fine."

You realize that, right?

Yeah, I completely disagree with this assessment on

Gustavo

and I dislike how

brass

handled this.

-

Gustavo

was stating that the reasons on him weren't really based on pure, constructive game reasons - or ones that he could do little but dismiss. I feel like he was genuine here.

-

Gustavo

took a step further and said that he wasn't going to entertain people having a negative response since it likely wouldn't lead to a help in the game.

-

Brass

misconstrues this as "don't scumread me", even though that's bordering a misrep, it's a very superficial means of looking at his post and it's oriented in making

Gustavo

seem undignified in his thoughts.

Plus, why is it bad for someone to defend themselves?

Why would town want to submit to their lynch? Why would scum want to submit their lynch?

I'm greatly suspicious of why nobody has brought up this possibility yet, and hasn't injected their own, authentic opinion on the 1v1. I just feel like, not just with this, there's so much parroting going on in the thread and it's not oriented in COHESIVE gameplay.

That makes sense to me though w/profii? nolynching d1 definitely doesn't help the town. Like, I agree Rask's actions weren't scummy but I feel profii's actions weren't either.

This is basically my point
I feel like I don’t really understand where Gus is coming from so I’m happy to just leave it and draw a line under it but if Gus wants to explain more I’m happy to listen

Yeah, I'm not a fan of this post.

Why don't you continue to try and understand? I don't like the "don't like it, but bye" mentality here... especially since your vote's still on him. You're just parking your vote without doing anything else.

530 is the only reason I'm not voting you atm - because you actually did something with your vote since 13

But I do want to know why you feel

Flubb

is scum. Or elaborate on what you've stated on him?

~~~

I know a lot of people in this game, and have played with them before, at least several times.

Here's my thoughts on them:

~

I can see

Ausuka

being town here... I'm a little weary of her game stances, but by meta, she seems consistent with the tone, walls, and thought process. But I need to see more before I solidify this read.

((2-3 games of experience.))

~

I don't know how to interpret

the worst

atm, blegh... He's definitely not as forward, thoughtful, or stream-of-consciousness as what I'm used to here.

((2+ games of experience.))

~

I retract my townread from

Brass

, I can't think of a post I like from him. Although, I have disliked his play when he's town before... so I'm weary of that.

((2-3 games of experience.))

~

Haven't seen enough to figure

Profii

out, some things ping, some things make me feel he's town... He's a very adaptable player, so he's caught my eye.

((1 game of experience... but we were both alive for awhile in this completed game, and he was scum, and I was town.))

Conclusion: I have a lot of

"I don't like"

comments because there's a lot of content worthy of shunning.

[Taly]

That’s very naive thinking.

But ok. That’s true but we also don’t remove town from the game.

There are more day 1 mislynches than scum lynches.

I don't agree with this... but is it really scum?

I have issues with his stances so far. Self voting and no lynch voting aren’t playing against a win condition regardless of alignment. I feel like he should know better since he’s not a newbie.

He does need to make less wordy posts though. That’s why they come off as iioa

I don’t really understand where you’re coming from by saying no lynching is anti-wincon. That’s not what I’m scum reading you for though. Maybe that’s the issue? I was scum reading you when I voted you. Idk how to put it but your early posts all seem so fake to me. Like you are trying to appear town and it doesn’t come off as genuine. The whole no lynch thing was definitely some more fuel to my fire and maybe that’s why people are so hung up on that. Like I said earlier it looked like you were just throwing more dirt on rask who was already doing a good job making himself look bad and your conclusions to me don’t make sense logically. I’ve never seen anyone say no lynching is playing against their win condition. It’s not like he was going to actually gain momentum for it. Some people I’ve seen argue no lynching helps town and while I don’t agree I understand their logic. I don’t understand yours. I don’t see it coming from town unless they are a newbie which you aren’t. It’s hands down the best information available to us. Definitely better than the reasons others have given (magna for example)

Someone read these and let me know if they find any discrepancies. Thanks.

Ewwww.... Are you actively looking for a problem in his posts?

I think you're being tunnely-town, here.

Read up to page 11.

All this "liar"talk gives me a feeling that Gustavo is being a pedant wrt inferno. I will have to confirm via iso eventually

The case on me is weak sauce. Something about coasting being scummy but not willing to call scum over it. As a rule of thumb, voting someone over one tell is a bad idea

Your posting is weaksauce.

I don't even know your reads by this point of the thread because they're either not memorable/well-pushed or very fluid, perhaps both.

And what does

"wrt"

mean? If this implies any suspicion on

Gustavo

, you're going to warrant the side-eye from me. ;P

I have played against and read games where TW was scum and his play has read the same way D1 as it does now. It may be to early to tell IMO.

May not be too early. It doesn't feel like he's doing anything. Have you ISOed him?

I would like to point this out.

I have issues with his stances so far. Self voting and no lynch voting aren’t playing against a win condition regardless of alignment. I feel like he should know better since he’s not a newbie.

He does need to make less wordy posts though. That’s why they come off as iioa

This post clearly contradicts what Gustavo is claiming his read is based off of right now.
Which is why I asked that question earlier.

...but is it really scum tho?

Omg omg omg omg omg
AAAAAAAANDYYYYYYYYYY ♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡♡

I dont know how any of you can question the alignment of the Gus slot. It's a prime example of a specific kind of player that makes really clear slips as scum. Like scum has to convince themselves of their own argument before they can convince the town,

and I don't think for a second that Gus thought he could be wrong. That doesn't come from a scum mind.

Which is good cuz it means we can conftown the single most wonderful person ever ♡

Currently not at home, but ill prolly vote flubs once I get back and reread. His most recent posts have been less than stellar.

!!!!!

Finally! SOMEONE IN THIS THREAD I AGREE WITH.

The bolded is a perfect verbalization of my thoughts on

Gustavo

, and I feel better about

dramonic

a lot right now.

Re 184, I'm not going to say I have a great explanation, but dramonic's posts just feel like scum posting. It's pure gut, and no real evidence, yeah, but, like everything feels like he's too calculated, I guess would be the right phrase, to be town.

I also don't think 482 is a town post, but, again, I can't quite put my finger on why.

My dramonic read is purely instinct, and I cannot read his posts and tell my stupid instinct with my brain that it's being stupid.

You're casting suspicion on someone and actively admitting it has no legitimate reason.



You're devaluing your own read as you being dumb, but if you actually felt strongly on

dramonic's

posts, why are you saying that?



This post is nothing less than transparent suspicion, and it's painfully obvious.



This post is a good embodiment of the rest of your ISO.



I'm not voting just yet, but I'm very tempted to.

~~~

~

Gustavo/Inferno

was so painful to watch... ugh. I don't think I can lynch

Andrius

at all in this game, tbh.

~

Feeling good about

dramonic

, he's got good sense where this thread/playerlist seems to be severely deprived from.

~

Brass

is getting worse by the page to me. There's other people I could vote, but I want to push this.

Conclusion: There's a few powerlynch-worthy people right now, and that's scary.

[Taly]

Ugh... at this point, I'm going to need some apple juice.

haven't read into the scumteam call-out and may not tonight but can definitely get in on this Sky wagon.

VOTE: SkyGazer

...what? Did I miss something?

VOTE: SkyGazer

As promised.

...ewww.

I just did another read through on Sky and there is something definitely scummy about her posts. I can get behind this wagon.
But someone else I’ve been stuck on is Elbirn. I keep rereading his ISO and thee is something really odd about his posting. I can’t figure out what though.
VOTE: Skygazer

Inferno

b stronger town plz.

I don't think it's true that my ISO is naked, I have definitely given content.

Don't think I stated this explicitly but my issue with Flubber was the thing MOI pointed out: the point on Rask being scum coasting made no sense that early.

VOTE: Skygazer is a good wagon.

Why

Sky

and not

Flubb

then?

Trying not to dominate discussions again

When were you dominating discussions?

so I'll probably take a backseat for a few hours at least after this, but my main issue with the iso for Skygazer is that there are 18 posts, one of which is substance light, the rest do nothing.

We are far enough in that a lack of content while still posting every few hours, to me, is scummy. I get the feeling that Sky is posting to be like "Well, I'm not lurking" and saying just enough to remember he is making posts, but not actually saying anything in the posts to deliberately avoid being a scum read. Once you get to 18 posts, I feel like there should be some posts that moves the game forward, unless you are Not_Mafia, but that's neither here nor there.

So, Sky is a good wagon.

Raskol

,

MoI

,

HeWhoSwims

,

xyzzy

have had less posts than her. Some with more content, yes, but less post frequency. There's also been some people with mild content.

And it's only been 7 days....

I don't see the weight in this argument?

Scum reads (mostly WIP towards the top)

Ausuka - as stated before, sketchiest of my sketch wagon

lol no. You don't even sound like you believe this scumread. You don't say anything about it.

Elbrin - has exactly one post that isn't fluff or related to the early flame war

lol don't agree. and what was this

"one non-fluff"

post?

Davesaz - I totally get being more observant than talkative, but every time he posts, nothing really changes. There's lots of questions in his iso, but a lot of it boils down to minute clarifications that don't really read into motivations. A lot of his commentary is "I agree with this point or that point" but it's again looking through the forest ignorant of the trees.

I also really don't like my recent interaction with him. Dave is a really analytical guy. He can very much piece things together through solid logic. However, the only way to do that is with a solid foundation. That starts D1 with a sample of good votes and detailed reasoning. The closest he's done to that so far is give my concern for the state of the game lip service. Dave concludes that my concern is valid with nothing more than a gripe that time is finite. Totally respectable, but if that's the case, then the town thing to do is at least start a discussion on how to push the game's voting habits towards in a more effective direction.

VOTE: davesaz

Have you played with

dave

before? Because if you told me that you did without linking, I wouldn't believe you.

Also, profii, of everyone that "wagoned" rask,why did you vote me?

missed this earlier sorry

I will be amazed if we aren't finding a scum in {The worst / flubber / xyzzy / sky } so i've been monitoring you lot more than any other group of players tbh.

i dont think it's tw so ive ruled him out.

Sky has pressure and in the spirit of being chill, I'm waiting for her to overcome the IRL things making her lurk. but idk, maybe I'm being mod manipulated into not death tunnelling there.

i dont like your posturing post that got mentioned, i know it was really early but it bugged me a lot. You then also got into Gus and Ausuka - i think gus doesn't like day 1 at all, so he's just nai for day1 tbh. I also think Ausuka will become easily sortable later in the game, idk how well you know her scum game? But seemed a weird read. My gut is just telling me you are using highly conflicting logic to me

i dont like xyzzys post in 180 either. It has random reads mixed with non-relevant content, almost sent to confuse or make it look like there is more content than there really is.


I guess the timing was wrong because that sky wagon sucked all the pressure off you so my vote alone isnt really going to pressure anything out of you. I could vote sky but I've asked what her scum reads are and I'm chilling so I'm being less forthright with my vote but i also wanted to move off RVS on to something more real

Notably, you agreed with my 309 post - who would you say is the scum involved in rask wagoning
'?

I think

xyzzy

is most likely town out of your pool. Not sure what to think on the

Sky

wagon.

Other than that, this post makes me feel better about

profii

, I can see the worry with

the worst

and

flubbernugget

So I’m still slotting Flubber as potential scum. Still unsure that his explanation that he used a poor language choice in regards to the whole Rask “coasting” post or that it was potentially scummy enough to bring up as a possibility but not worth voting early on. I find generally that Town are less concerned with how their votes are perceived and scum generally work harder at justifying their votes (or lack thereof). Additionally 445 and 446 feel like a side-step … suddenly its not that Ausuka has no other reads but “she is the worst”. In a set of three people someone will always have the lowest amount of reads. The question is whether Ausuka was pursuing other reads at all. My impression – she was and is. And even the suggestion that “PT Slipping” is a thing to scumread someone for is suspect given I know Flubber has played in games and has to know that Mafia PTs are standard.

But time to vote my darkhorse read now that he’s finally answered the questions I had outstanding for him …

VOTE: Davesaz

I’ve been suspicious of him since 124 which is a bunch of words that are mostly empty fence sitting (I find this odd but from Player X it is normal) with a profii scum reads evidenced but no accompanying vote. In general his posting is vague and non-committal. 459 I think illustrates that. And his self-meta explanation is no excuse for not being willing to give opinions (even early ones … the game has to get going with something) while being quick to criticize others for a perceived lack of opinion. Overall his ISO is mostly waffling back and forth on most issues with a few small Town or scum reads. I don’t see someone looking to find scum. Thus my vote.

Ehhhh... this and

Dramonic's

vote are the ones I can understand.

Dave+SkyGazer+chick.

Please don't N1 kill me so that I can see you all hang.
VOTE: SkyGazer first?

So, is your entire posting this game going to be throwing scum possibilities and narratives around while you vote someone and cast suspicion on another person?

Your reasonings do not align with your votes, oh wait, what reasoning?

Oh yeah, Dramonic still fits as a fourth.

Do we even have 4 scum??

Your posts are disingenuous.

I can't tell if you're town being bullheaded or scum throwing enough shade to where town can't see the truth.

You could be hiding your thoughts for self-preservation, I guess??? I don't like what I'm seeing, especially in conjunction with your posts on

Pagd 27

.

Can you just talk to me?

~~~

~

I had a slight moment where I was like

"could I be wrong on

Brass

"?

It happened when I was unprepared, so I want to push him, but I don't think he's most worth my vote right now.

~

Flubb

does not feel natural.

~

Hit

does not feel natural, but I've seen town play similar to he has.

Conclusion: Scum is either very strong, or town is very weak. No middle ground. I feel like there's been much more town-wagons and town-suspected in this game than anything else.

I can easily and greatly empathize with Dave and Gustavo's frustration with this game.

[Taly]

Universal Readslist Upon Catch-Up

Town
Ausuka, dramonic, Andrius, Inferno, xyzzy, MoI, Elbirn (volatile), Raskol, profii

???
HeWhoSwims, Chickadee, Sky, the worst

Scum
brassherald (volatile), HitAlt, Flubbernugget

This readslist in general is volatile, but

Elbirn/Brass

are most in this category - volatile means their read can change quickly, since I'm processing a lot of info. at once.

It's also not in order of strength in a read. So just because

Ausuka, brass, HeWhoSwims

are at the top in their order, doesn't mean they're the highest OR lowest in strength.

But this is where I'm at after the initial catch-up.

I'd much appreciate people asking about my reads rather than pushing them at the moment. There's too much adversity in the thread, and based on

Page 27

, I feel like new perspective's are perceived as threats in this game.

Which is not conducive to a town-gamesolve in terms of gamestate or atmosphere.

[the worst]

reckon you could vaguely tier your townreads for me? or is that like, a townbloc?

[Taly]

VOTE: Flubbernugget

I see nothing in their posts that tell me they're town; I'll ISO them a bit more in depth later... and I'm a bit burnt-out.

~~~

HOW DID I DO FOR TACT

LORDE

?

EVA GREEN?

E-E-Eva?

Just walk it off,

Eva

!

[Taly]

reckon you could vaguely tier your townreads for me? or is that like, a townbloc?

No townreads are strong enough for a townbloc, yet.

But I really do like

dramonic's

posting in retrospect, and

Ausuka

feels town-her.

I also feel

Inferno

is towny, even though I don't agree with them that much in this game. I guess I'm finally developing the ability to tone-read a little?

These would probably be the stronger townreads at the moment.

[Taly]

Andrius

is strong townread too, but that's a lot in his predecessor so I'm not solid there yet.

I like

xyzzy

,

MoI

posts but I need to look a bit deeper soon.

The volatility in

Elbirn

is because I didn't like his posts in page 27.

I automatically have frustration with anyone who writes my posts off as

"nonsensical babble"

. But I still hold my original impression as town.

Raskol

and

profii

are mid-town, I'd say, for different reasons though.

[Taly]

Lorde

,

Eva

, and

Pinecone

are townblocc'ed tho.

[HeWhoSwims]

Yeah I'll reread the case for brass but I'd let him live over Taly here

Taly would you agree there isn't that much... Important content from Stargazer

[Taly]

Yeah I'll reread

the case for brass but I'd let him live over Taly here

Taly would you agree there isn't that much... Important content from Stargazer

Love that the consistent reaction to me catching up and posting in this game goes like:

Side note, not sure how I'm feeling about your posting so far.

Side note, not sure how I'm feeling about your posting so far. I feel like you've taken every chance to mention that you're town. And bumping someone because they town read you is baaaad.

Hard agree.

Side note, not sure how I'm feeling about your posting so far. I feel like you've taken every chance to mention that you're town. And bumping someone because they town read you is baaaad.

Agree with this.

Am I literally insane for thinking that Taly is scum for babbling about having a meta read on his own predecessor Dave?

but i don't think he's scum with Dave/Taly slot so here we are, trapped in the amber of this moment.

At any rate his nonsensical babble about having a team-solve and trying to push that through is, if not scummy, certainly bad play

I like dave's posting just before he replaced out but there are a few things that bother me about Taly?

Granted, Taly's… Talyness could just be them being who they are but man there's a few key problems with what happened here and that worries me.

Am I literally insane for thinking that Taly is scum for babbling about having a meta read on his own predecessor Dave? One of the oldest scum tells in the book, albeit I've forgotten the name of it, but yeah no one? Anyone? Bueller?

You are not alone.

If I'm mislynched, I'm not going to feel bad.

I don't think I've ever had suspicion so thoroughly parroted onto me.

I'm remembering why I don't replace in much.

Taly would you agree there isn't that much... Important content from Stargazer

But no, to answer your question - I don't see a lot of important content from

Star

I don't feel comfortable with the wagon right now, and honestly, I'd say other people in this thread have been lackluster with content.

So I don't understand your thinking here.

Also thanks for the

brass/Me

dichotomy,

HeWhoSwims

[Taly]