Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Bernie Sanders]

I wish mathdino didn't go away before taking a hardstand this game.

[Momrangal]

Ok so I have a weird hang up this game
TW is voting momrangal
momrangal is voting invisibility
invisibility voted gemini/TW
strong odds on at least a scum is in this grouping but guess wrong and probably instead detracts from town who is pushing scum (though tbf there's not much pressure from any of these which maybe again loops back to the read to begin with)

math voting nauci because nauci should be more obvtown as town
nauci I'm floating though even as gamma vote read lazy pressure on gamma isn't really the worst thing in the world

essentially people are more pro-town than usual e.g. nobody iirc is pushing my better townreads (at least then you can more comfortably spec scum motivation) at least based on where I'm sitting and ehhhh
possibly this may imply 1 sided distancing (as opposed to 2way which I think is more common) or a misread elsewhere though not necessarily

ultimately it's possible this is completely nothing or a red herring though

This doesnt read fence sitty at all?

[Momrangal]

mom i'm kinda confused why i'm the person you're reaching out to talk about bernie right now tbh. like if you have trouble with bernie idk why you aren't talking to him about it

I have him as scum. I reached out to you, Key and shos. Why would i talk to him about why im scum reading him, im not going to convince him im correctly reading him.

I need to know where you stand regarding him though so i know how hard i need to work to convince you to vote with me to get my desired lynch.

Also yeah, said post was the case and key (possibly inadvertently) made it more likely its the case.

Also what i am saying is this.

Yesterday, bernie hammered gamma and i thought i saw the reason for it being something about me being flash lynched while V/LA yesterday.

Today, knowing im V/LA he makes a push for it before i even come back from said V/LA

[Momrangal]

this bit is kinda inaccurate to me since the wagon only got up to L-3 at that point

I remember discussion and someone voting him to L-2. Even it was just L-3, he was being wagoned when he stated that he could be active later on in the week, aiming to possibly lynch him before he had the chance to get less busy.

As far as gamma goes, shos talked about why im unlikely scum with him.

I waffled at one point yeah, but you are looking at just that.
State of gammas wagon, and the previous stance i had on him was one of the few things overlooked.

Like i said.

"I got cold feet on a gamma bus"

[Shoshin]

Momrangals first focus here on a townread somewhat betraying(?) her rather than on who is scum or analyzing anything given gamma flipped is no bueno.

That wasn't really the focus of her post.

[skitter30]

This doesnt read fence sitty at all?

i mean, i guess a little because he doesn't come to a firm conclusion? but it's a post from like weeks ago and like 1500 posts ago and in general i have a pretty good sense of where he's holding and i don't in general get the vibe that he's like leaving himself room to change his mind.

--

I need to know where you stand regarding him though so i know how hard i need to work to convince you to vote with me to get my desired lynch.

Also yeah, said post was the case and key (possibly inadvertently) made it more likely its the case.

Also what i am saying is this.

Yesterday, bernie hammered gamma and i thought i saw the reason for it being something about me being flash lynched while V/LA yesterday.

Today, knowing im V/LA he makes a push for it before i even come back from said V/LA

ok, more specifically what i'm confused by is that i've been telegraphing that i was probably going to vote for you when you came back so i don't really get why you think:

a) i'm going to be voting with you to vote bernie

b) my stance differs that much from bernie's that you want me to vote him over it

like i don't recall anyone making a serious proposition to flashwagon you while v/la tbh. yes a few people voted you while you were gone (i was one of them even) today and eod yesterday but like i don't think the intent was to lynch you before you came back or anything

[Momrangal]

though towards the end, it was partially a matter that he was claimed VT and I was slightly worried of an certain outside risk of deadline flash wagon momrangal VLA even if I scumread her more).

Yeah here.

I dont understand why he would be worried if he scum read me.

Further more, this proves he's aware of my V/La and the fact that he pushed be knowing i couldnt respond.

Also, if he was worried of the flash wagon, why wouldnt he be still worried of it considering i was still V/LA

[Shoshin]

Bernie, what's your read on Skitter?

[brassherald]

George Washington decided not to run for a third term of office, setting a tradition that was so ingrained in American government that a man attempted to assassinate Teddy Roosevelt when he ran for a third term.

Votecount 2.5

the worst(3)

~ Nauci, Errantparabola, skitter30

momrangal (1)

~ Bernie Sanders

Shoshin (1)

~ Gustavo

Not_Mafia(1)

~ Irrelephant11

skitter30 (1)

~ shoshin

Nauci (1)

~ the worst

Not Voting (4): BlackVoid, Momrangal, Not_Mafia,Keyser Soze

With 12 alive it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 deadline is in (expired on 2018-07-15 20:30:00)

[Gustavo]

I did not know that

[Irrelephant11]

Keyser why aren’t you voting?
Gustavo what do you think of Skitter/Bernie/Mom(/Shoshin if you want) in regards to the last few pages?
Not_Mafia who did you try to shoot last night?

There’s a lot going on in terms of votes and it’s making things a little messy

As it turns out Skitter has actually tried to “told you so” a lot more about Gamma’s lynch than Nauci. So switch Skitter and Nauci in my earlier vca reads
Nauci has said things that feel scummy but as I read her ISO with “town!Nauci” glasses it actually explained some things and made more sense than just trying to discern her alignment as I went.

VOTE: skitter30, you said EOD1 you lost your townread on nauci, then later said you townread Nauci because “there’s gotta be town somewhere”. What happened in between those reads?

[Irrelephant11]

For the record I was also considering voting tw but idk I’m not ready for L-2 on him yet

[skitter30]

As it turns out Skitter has actually tried to “told you so” a lot more about Gamma’s lynch than Nauci. So switch Skitter and Nauci in my earlier vca reads

i apparently get really really annoyed and frustrated when i'm right and people don't listen to me; feel free to ask tw for reference

VOTE: skitter30, you said EOD1 you lost your townread on nauci, then later said you townread Nauci because “there’s gotta be town somewhere”. What happened in between those reads?

are you like voting me cuz i switched my read on her?

also are you even paying attention to context?

actually i reconsider my take on the lack of opposition to the gamma thing; nauci, if gamma ever flips scum that's a gross post and you're my first bet for a partner

specifically i'm considered that the first time you brought up this take is *after* i made a thing about it, and that you've been pushing the gamma and/or his wagon for a while now despite not joining it

like how do you just now decide 'at a glance i find the lack of a counter wagon' possibly disturbing; you literally just had a thing about people's voting patterns, and nm has been on the wagon for like three irl days now.

either way, i just lost the townread; i'm down to like ~3 now

it was because of this that i lost the townread; i was suspicous of her for voicing her suspicions wrt gamma just like i did; i was kinda worried that if she was scum with gamma she was piggy-backing on my objections to stall the lynch on her partner

gamma flipped town so that was kinda a moot point for scumreading her

she hasn't done anything actively scummy imo and nearly everyone else is scummier so she's like provisionally town because there has to be town

[BlackVoid]

Bernie is getting harder to read so even though I want to keep him in my townreads it’s hard.

I didn't feel this way at all based on Bernie's posting a few posts before yours. He's being vague about his TheWorst read because he didn't seem to want to out his alt at that point but none of it comes across as disingenuous and I didn't feel like he was being vague because he wanted to conceal a lack of good reasons for his reads.

All of his early posts reek of eagerness to look like he's doing something productive and meaningful while doing absolutely jackall.

He's sitting there looking pretty, playing it safe, and it looks like hes engaging with people but the questions are empty.

I'm not seeing how you got that from 39. It looks like he was clarifying whether Shoshin's scumread on Math was RVS or not.

@Shoshin - now’s the time to share that irrefutable meta evidence for town-invisibility. momrangel actually came back with a bang.

I don't think her post was particularly good. Admittedly, it's better than her previous posts but "came back with a bang" feels like an exaggeration for a pretty banal post. I also want to note that I see a lot of hanging back and letting other people push each other from you. For example, complimenting Momrangal for the Invisibility push and then asking Shoshin for her Invisibility meta-read. Do you think it's pro-town to get other people to argue with each other? Would you say this is how you normally play (I'm going to check but I'd like your opinion as well)? Also, Shoshin already elaborated on her Invisibility townread. I want to know why you aren't taking a stance here with your own opinions.

What do you think of mom’s choice to fixate only on invisibility so far?

This feels like a weird turn from “momrangel came back with a bang” (the post implies a town Mom and a push on Shoshin) to now, where you’re kinda asking town Shoshin to scumread Mom?

This is a fair point actually. He's basically been encouraging other people to respond to each other's arguments but not much in the way of inserting his own opinions in there very strongly. I'll come back to this when I figure out whether this is normal for him. It's like everytime someone makes a point at someone else, he turns around and asks the other person how they respond, almost as if he's moderating a debate.

His 31, 88, 89, 210, and 414 feel overly performative.

Can you elaborate on "performative?"

I wanted to sit back and watch Shoshin and Momrangel to play out the inner conflict in my head I have over Invisibility.

I like the transparency here. This confirms what I was thinking about Keyser but I don't think scum would be blatant about the fact that they are in fact sitting back.

@Keyser - can you describe how you normally play as scum?

DUCCKKKKYYYYYY!!!!if scum, never playing with Gemini again

I'm not following what you're trying to say here. Is replacing out as scum a blacklist-worthy offence? People replace out when they don't have time to play. Alignment should never be a factor.

shoshin/math and shoshin/stun really didn't look like early s/s and stun and dino both seemed independently towny

and then I was sorta light-scumreading all three of the second list and there was nothing to indicate they had different alignments

Your second list was Keser/Stungun/Skitter. Were you townreading or scumreading Stungun?

Like what if you're buddying me and really good at it
Oh well. It's honestly fine for now if it's true
Consider me buddied, we're buddies now. Buddied up from now till lylo see you then <3

I really don't like this post because it feels like you want to present yourself as a townie that's being buddied by Shoshin. If you're townreading her but have mild paranoia, you could probably just say that. If you're actually scumreading her, you'd be pushing her. But there's this weird read where you're basically calling her scum that's buddying you but who you won't push until LYLO. It looks more like that's the image you want to present to the game as opposed to it being a genuine read. So, that mid to late game if Shoshin is alive/comes under suspicion, you can come back to this and say "oh, yeah I got buddying vibes from Shoshin" and use that as a reason to push her then.

what I found is that her play here is consitent with her play in town games and actually slightly different from her play in scum games.

Can you give me a short overview of the differences you found in Momrangal's town and scum games.

I like Nauci's re-entrance in 656. But the rest of the catchup is somewhat null. I don't see much that strikes me either way. I'm still mulling over what Nauci's suspicions of Irrelephant means for both of their alignments. Haven't ruled out any combination yet.

My rule of thumb that I absolutely don't vouch for is that, when heavily pressured, scum!tw becomes exponentially more dodgy/bullshitter, and slightly more serious as town. (based on one game w/ him and skimming a couple of others)

Why reveal this before you have a chance to see what he's like under pressure? Even if he's not pressured immediately, there's a chance he would be at some point. Edit: Just read 675 where you call it a placebo effect. Why can't he act serious if he's scum and gets pressured if he knows that's what you're expecting?

578, 583 I post this kind of crap when I'm unmotivated scum so it's hard not to read it this way

Would you mind linking me to places where you've said this as scum.

I generally gives 0 fucks about how I'm perceived in the game. If I am challenged on a specific thing or if someone has misinterpreted something I said, I'll address that. Otherwise, I just endeavor to town harder.

This pinged. This is a game of perceptions and to do well as town, you need to read people correctly and be read correctly. "I give zero fucks about how I'm perceived" feels like bravado/putting up a front. The most content you've written about anyone in your readslist is yourself (tied with Irrelephant) which is also odd for someone who doesn't care about how they are perceived.

I actually don't like anything you've written under the heading of yourself. Why give bullet-points when you don't like self-meta?

I'm extremely capable of separating someone's read of me with my evaluation of the circumstances of how they read me as if it was any other player and their content.

What's the point of saying this?

I will get exhaustibly pedantic to correct a misconception so try not to make any or I will be here arguing w/ you on it for 9 pages.

It's well within your control to not argue with people for 9 pages if you don't think it's alignment-indicative so I don't see the point of this either. Obviously if do think it's alignment-indicative, then it's a good lead and not just being pedantic.

How do you reconcile your stance of not sheeping with using TheWorst's vouch of Bernie as part of your reason to townread Bernie?

As for Nauci's actual readslist, I don't disagree with any of her townreads. I'm not so confident in Keyser being town but I'm leaning town. I think Stungun, Skitter, Bernie, and Shoshin are town. I know Math and Gamma are town. If she's scum, she's got a list where both her buddies would be in the bottom five reads and I think it's a less likely approach as scum than having at least one partner higher up in their reads. So, that gives me townvibes from Nauci. Overall, I'm pretty conflicted.

It this a bus, or is it opportunism? Funnily enough, this late push on TW followed TW's famous "Bernie Sanders remains probably my strongest townread" line Makes me want to re-look at TW's read of you too.

Bernie pushing TheWorst when TheWorst was townreading him so hard makes Bernie less likely to be scum. I think the scenario where the TheWorst is scum and buddying Bernie and Bernie not buying it is the most probable one. I don't know why you jumped to them being scum together as the most likely conclusion. One scum hard-townreading and vouching for another and the other voting them is actually a pretty unlikely interaction.

699 is a pretty underwhelming catchup by Invisibility with a few rehashed points.

Nauci's Irrelephant push in 702 and 704 felt genuine. The more I think about it, I actually don't think that after a great game as scum together, Nauci's strategy in the next game she plays with Irrelephant is to keep pushing for his mislynch on the basis of his good scumplay at least this early in the game (in the Nauci-scum, Irrelephant-town scenario). I suppose she could but I'd expect it more in the form of "why is he still alive" a few day phases from now as opposed to this paranoia push which is much less likely to gain traction.

@TheWorst, you never answered which posts of Gemini's you mindmelded on. I also want to know what alignment you prefer to play.

That's to the end of page 30. Catchup is going slower than expected but I'm still hoping I'll be caught up by tonight. We shall see. Feel free to engage my posting. I feel like I have a bit more solid take on the game now. My focus from POE is mostly on Irrelephant, Momrangal, TheWorst, and Northsidegal's slot (but I haven't read any of the replacement's posts yet). I'll do an actual readslist when I'm caught up.

[Shoshin]

Hey BV, I like your catchup posts quite a bit. One very important question for you, why is Skitter town?

[Shoshin]

Can you give me a short overview of the differences you found in Momrangal's town and scum games.

I can't remember exactly as I was mostly checking a few things for consistency. I'm pretty sure I read a town game where she opened very similarly to the way she opened here, sort of ignoring everything that had happened and going after a lurker. As scum, she tended to look sort of townish but hedged quite a bit more than she did as town and she'd sheep almost any opportunity for a mislynch.

I'm not sure Mom's town anymore. There was one game where she got caught for some blatant buddying and I'm a bit paranoid that's what she's doing to me.

[Shoshin]

I'm really glad to see BV questioning Mom's early push on Invis. I had similar thoughts but brushed them off because I know how easy it is for town to suspect Invis when they haven't played with him before (he's been mislynched in nearly every game he's ever played).

[BlackVoid]

Hey BV, I like your catchup posts quite a bit. One very important question for you, why is Skitter town?

I'm trying to think of how best to explain it since there's a pretty big meta component here. To put it succinctly, she's a lot more persistent about pushing reads and gamesolving when she's town. I don't have first hand experience with her scumgame but from the few games I've read, she can fake analytical-looking posts to a certain extent but there's a lack of drive to keep pushing, finding answers and solving the game. As scum, she sometimes has a tendency to get a bit lurkish/burn out from the effort. In her towngames, it doesn't feel like it's a chore for her to keep churning out more content. She can just keep going until she gets to the bottom of whatever she's pushing. Since you're into reading previous games, take a glance through some of skitter's scum games and I think you'll get what I'm talking about. They are several months old but the mindset still holds. She prefers playing town over scum and this game, she's

well

out of her scumrange.

[BlackVoid]

I'm speeding up my catchup so I'll try to just comment on things significantly affecting my reads.

Momrangel's Bernie case and defense of TheWorst is 794 is really convoluted (she lampshaded it in her next post but it doesn't help). Why would Bernie be pushing a mislynch on someone who vouched for him being town? When there are so many other players that he could have pushed and even used TheWorst to help him push those lynches? I also don't get how Bernie was taking a "neutral stance" on TheWorst. And I don't think people would be so simplistic as to simply go after the ones who pushed TheWorst hardest in the event of a townflip. I also thought the narrative of TheWorst as the vulnerable player being piled on and mislynched by Bernie seems a bit forced.

TheWorst's actual posting didn't make any impression on me. A lot of the one-liner type stuff feels like things he could post as either alignment and I have a hard time reading people who employ the conversational one-liner style without deeper analysis. I think he's more likely than not scum through POE.

Ugh Nauci you’re sounding towny sometimes but you keep calling for my lynch and it doesn’t feel like you actually think I’m scum you just want me lynched and I want us both to be town but we’re never gonna be able to work together if we are, are we

I highly doubt this is something scum would say to someone they are scum reading/trying to lynch.

I disagree. I don't think Irrelephant as scum would need to lynch Nauci specifically. If he can get Nauci to back off with an emotional-type appeal, that's just as good for him.

she had like 2 posts and both of them were like "saem bro"
honestly can't give you more than that

I'd prefer if you can elaborate actually. Gemini has three posts of game relevant content none of which take any strong stances. What did you agree with?

Also, I feel like everyone has made a decision on duck based on his pred replacing out.

Who did this besides you and Stungun? You literally said in 470 that if TheWorst is scum, you're never playing with Gemini again.

It doesn't seem like no one had taken into consideration that she replaced out because of IRL reasons

and it didn't seem like anyone looked for proof in other games she might be in.

That being said, duck has 30 pages to read to catch up on and that's not an easy feat

The bolded is super weird because you're the one reading into her replace out. You're also very charitable towards TheWorst which makes me not feel good because you're both in my POE pool and you're stretching pretty hard to defend him. I dislike your Bernie and Nauci pushes as well.

intersting to note that mom votes nauci and duckling moves his vote off of mom onto nauci. i'm *pretty* sure from voting patterns that mom and duckling aren't scum together even though mom's defending him; the timing of their votes don't really feel like partners to me.

I noticed that too but my impression was that they wanted to swing momentum onto another viable-looking wagon as an alternative to TheWorst. I didn't like how Momrangal defended both Irrelephant and TheWorst and pushed their attackers and tried to get a wagon going elsewhere.

she feels less attached and engaged here and I cannot shake the feeling that her posting is pushing an agenda and specific preconceived stances rather than actively forming opinions fluidly as she goes.

If by "agenda," you mean Nauci's push on Irrelephant, how do you differentiate between scum pushing a agenda and town pushing their scumreads when they develop a read they feel confident in? I'm not sure what agenda is being served by going all-out on D1 talking about how good Irrelephant is as scum and hard-pushing a case and trying to convince a lot of people that their townread is wrong as opposed to going for an easier lynch, bringing up Irrelephant-paranoia later on. People are generally more willing to lynch good scumplayers out of paranoia if they are alive too long than on D1.

I've caught up to page 47. I'll take a break and continue later. I don't think I'll read the whole game today but I'll try to finish up before I leave for work tomorrow.

[the worst]

hi

for the balance of the game I will not be reading any posts with more than 300 words and God awful formatting ty for your cooperation

[the worst]

If by "agenda," you mean Nauci's push on Irrelephant, how do you differentiate between scum pushing a agenda and town pushing their scumreads when they develop a read they feel confident in? I'm not sure what agenda is being served by going all-out on D1 talking about how good Irrelephant is as scum and hard-pushing a case and trying to convince a lot of people that their townread is wrong as opposed to going for an easier lynch, bringing up Irrelephant-paranoia later on. People are generally more willing to lynch good scumplayers out of paranoia if they are alive too long than on D1.

huh

[the worst]

I'd prefer if you can elaborate actually. Gemini has three posts of game relevant content none of which take any strong stances. What did you agree with?

did

[the worst]

Bv if you have specific questions for me can you please ask them succinctly in clear English without answering your own question with your own opinions

and preferably in their own short posts so I read them

like rn I'm reading maybe 1/10 of your posts and praying to the mafia gods that you eat a nk or get copped so I don't have to sort you

[the worst]

holy mother of busywoek

if the cop isn't on BVslot they should be embarrassed

[Shoshin]

holy mother of busywoek

if the cop isn't on BVslot they should be embarrassed

BV's very obviously town here.