Mini 2018 - American Presidents Mafia (Game Over)

[Bernie Sanders]

I don't think Bernie's scum, Mom.

that being that he isn't even entirely committing to me.

Expand on this

[Shoshin]

What's bizarre about it?

My focus has been on (X) this entire day but I've not voted him because it would just be one vote so what's the point.

Seems like someone who has given up.

[Gustavo]

Yeah, I'm noticing that as well. Very difficult to get people to work as a team here.

Hey sho, what happened to this person? Why are you so anti-working together this game?

I've been trying to work with everyone... You're the one who refuses to work with me. I tried discussing reads with you but all you want to do is tell me how I'm scum when I know I'm not.

Do I need to remind you of the way you reacted to me asking you questions when I came in? You were very combative and blatantly lied.

So want to give me a better answer? Or do you just want to claim scum that I know you are?

[Gustavo]

Nauci

Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

Because I want your reason.

No shit. What do you think my answer will tell you about my alignment if you know I do this as town?

You aren’t trying to work together here.

[Gustavo]

VOTE: Gustavo

Or here

[Gustavo]

I regret replacing into this game now. None of my scum reads are ever going to get lynched and my cases get ignored.

[Shoshin]

Nauci

Why did you vote nauci immediately after math did with absolutely no reason for it and hardly any mention of him prior?

As you know from Tropical, I don't always state my reasons for voting. So why ask this question?

Because I want your reason.

No shit. What do you think my answer will tell you about my alignment if you know I do this as town?

You aren’t trying to work together here.

I felt (and still feel) like you are the one who isn't trying to work with me.

As I explained to you, I thought your question was asking why I voted without giving a reason, not why I voted for Nauci in particular. I answered by referring you to a town game where I didn't always give reasons for my votes, implying that the question I thought you were asking wasn't helpful to sorting my alignment.

I also asked you a question about your question. But rather than answer my question, you gave a combative non-answer ("because I want your reason" isn't an answer). In response, I was more aggressive because I thought you were refusing to answer a valid question. Look at this from my point of view - I thought you knew better than to ask that question because we had played together in Tropical, so I was questioning the point of your question.

Ever since, you've been saying I'm lying and anti-working together. But as others have tried telling you, I didn't lie, I don't always state my reasoning when I vote, and I'm clearly trying to work with everyone jhere, including you despite the fact that you scumread me - that's why I asked you about your reads assuming I'm town, because I wanted to pull you into the game in a meaningful way since you're sitting on the side lines talking about me when that's not helping anyone.

Now, if you want to keep pushing me and ignoring all the evidence that I wasn't lying and all the evidence that I'm working with people in this game, then there's nothing I can do about that. It's unfortunate, because I'd like to work with you, but for the moment there's not much to be done about it.

[Bernie Sanders]

As an analogy here momrangal if she was town given her POV should have at least a tiny little bit of what gustavo is showing.

[Gustavo]

I felt (and still feel) like you are the one who isn't trying to work with me.

You are correct. Because you are caught scum or town playing horrible. If town you burned a bridge you didn’t have to burn. You lied when you didn’t have the lie. You were combative when you didn’t need to be.

[Gustavo]

Now, if you want to keep pushing me and ignoring all the evidence that I wasn't lying

Evidence proves you were though.

[Shoshin]

Holy fuck, Gustavo. I didn't lie. And everyone in the game agrees with me, not you. You're just blinded by your own arrogance. And you're the one who has been needlessly combative from your very first question to me. Everyone in this game agrees with me, and if it weren't for Stun, lots of people wouldn't even townread you.

But whatever. I'm pretty tired of this, so fuck it, I'm just gonna claim because I'd rather have you invested in the game in a meaningful way.

I'm a doctor. I protected you last night.

I don't know if I'm the only doctor or protective in the game so I can't guarantee that Gustavo was the nightkill, but I'm guessing he was because it just makes a lot of sense.

I voted him today to see if I could tease out some reactions from scum. Then I decided to stop doing that because it was obviously pissing Gustavo off. I didn't think he'd actually abandon the wagon on Key because of my prodding but I guess he's obsessed with me to the point of still harping on all this lying bullshit.

And with that, I'll probably die tonight. Which is okay with me, I'm getting burned out from mafia anyway.

Now, Gustavo, stop talking about me and reevaluate the game please. I actually want your input and want you invested in this.

[Bernie Sanders]

Jake literally does this every game just ignore him.

[Shoshin]

I can't. Having my townreads tunnel me like this actually throws me off my game.

[Gustavo]

Jake literally does this every game just ignore him.

I’m not Jake.

[Bernie Sanders]

Zzzzzzzz

[Shoshin]

Whatever, I hope he gets into the game now instead of tunneling me.

[Gustavo]

I can't. Having my townreads tunnel me like this actually throws me off my game.

This is all your own doing. You could have just had a normal conversation and answered my questions. This game would be completely different.

Now I’m scum reading you and literally nothing you say can change that.

[Gustavo]

Whatever, I hope he gets into the game now instead of tunneling me.

Why would I stop tunneling you?

[Shoshin]

Wow. What a fucking idiot.

[Shoshin]

Please don't replace into my games anymore.

[brassherald]

Hey, guys, play nice. Attack the play, not the player.

[Gustavo]

Wow. What a fucking idiot.

Unnecessary.

[Nauci]

Gustavo can you please respond to this, or maybe let me know that you're going to later? I'd like to know why you are no longer scumreading Bernie or Keyser, and whether or not you scumread me (& if so, why).

I don’t town read you. I’m good with day 1 policy lynches.

Sho/skittles/nauci are my current scum reads. I don’t have good feelings about you or Bernie.

Though I’m kind of annoyed right now. Not a single person scum reads the scummiest person in the game yet nobody can explain what about this behavior makes him town.

Maybe you just haven't read those explanations, or refuse to acknowledge they exist, or we live in parallel universes where some parts of this mafia game are a crossover event

[skitter30]

@bv (spoilered for length):

Spoiler:

@Skitter, is TheWorst usually capable of reading you accurately? He doesn't seem to realize that you're town here and I'm trying to figure out whether it's alignment-indicative. How well/deeply does he normally read you?

i think this is the fourth game we've played together:

math's stack-the-deck - we were both town, and mind-melded pretty easily. he townread me pretty fast and started sheeping me a lot. iirc i was paranoid that he was trying to buddy me via sheeping

Subject: ♥ ♠ Open 711: Stack The Deck - Game Over ♣ ♦

I detest being a sheep but Skitter is speaking right into my soul. If it's between Una/Srceen Una is the correct player to pressure at this point.

Subject: ♥ ♠ Open 711: Stack The Deck - Game Over ♣ ♦

Skitter I am sheeping a little while I don't feel like I can be strongly influential. Also I think you're town which makes you v easy to gravitate towards.

brass's pick your poison open - both town, iirc mindmelded pretty easily although i got slightly tunneled on him at the end of day1 and kinda accidentally talked people out of lynching scum cuz i was pr reading him so the townread kinda degraded, but look at the early-game posts

Subject: Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

Doing good thanks.

skitter do you have any scum meta? thinking back to Math's Stack the Deck you're too easy a townread for me.

Subject: Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

well

as I said I like skitter so far, she skittered well considering her last post was on page 3.
I also think she has good instincts so far--hit me up if you aren't picking up what I'm putting down here.

Subject: Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

Yo skitter30! Either we are mind melding again or youre pocketing me!

Thoughts on Sajj, Sunsh and the other duckling?

Subject: Open 721: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

I

Other reason I am concerned about confbias--I will give townreads too easily for people based on their stances. If I'm wrong this means I run the risk of townblocking scum.

For example atm I am townreading the fuck out of skitter but I am passively aware of the fact scum!skitter pockets me here every time.

latest iteration of jungle republic, which just ended - we were both town - i kinda tunneled him day1 and tried to get him lynched and he scumread me in retaliation, but in my defense he was purposefully trying to anti-mind-meld and be tonally off since he was the one and only pr and was trying to be scummy enough to not get nk'd. he got a guilty n1 and i incidentally started day2 casing his guilty and trying to get him to vote him with me so he claimed the guilty at which point we worked together pretty well

so yeah that's why i'm finding his trajectory on me to be ????

i guess the one thing that's throwing me off is that it would be probably easier for him as scum to just townread me and pocket me? i don't think scum!him thinks he can like actually lynch me here and there's a very good chance i can get *him* lynched so purposefully scumreading me doesn't really have a lot of scum motivation for him tbh

unless he's just trying to brush off my scumread of him by telling me i must be wrong and scum - when i'm tunneled town!him usually tells me i'm either tunneled or scum - he tried to pull that line here but given that he's telling me i'm scum pushing him i don't think he actually believes that

(somethign else to say maybe about tw in jungle republic a little later; don't think it's expedient to get into this right now)

--

I don't think there's any way Skitter, Shoshin, or Bernie are flipping scum here. I think most of that sentiment holds true for Gustavo as well but I'm wary because I was spectating a game where he was scum against Shoshin. He acted so confident that Shoshin was flipping scum to the point where continuous analysis was useless and I remember thinking he could be a conf-biased townie. But combined with Stungun's very town posting, I'm more willing to throw Gustavo in the townpile here.

i'm somewhere around

{shoshin}
{gustavo}
{you, bernie}
{}
{nauci}
{nm, errant} - null - can't read nm and i don't really think errant's done much AI either way
{irrelephant, keyser} - upon a mom townflip keyser goes way down
{}
{mom}
{tw}

although shoshin and gustavo are my highest townreads i really don't trust their reads at all whatsoever and i'm kinda tuning them out tbh because i don't think arguing with either of them will get me anywhere right now

i also don't know anything about rask or his scumrange but i'm *slightly* paranoid of him

--

I really want to put Nauci in that group as well. I also felt like her reads make sense generally. The reason I don't feel as confident is that I have the feeling that Nauci is the type of player who can replicate most of what she does as town as scum so I have hard time finding anything and saying this is definitely town and there's no chance she's scum the way I can for Rask (who admits to having an average at best scumgame), or Shoshin or Skitter.

There's a lot of effort, yeah. But there's also a lot of things I could see good scum doing that I don't think are as useful/helpful for town. Like that extensive voting analysis.

I also think she's overstating how much she and Skitter are mindmelding. They both have different playstyles and ways of approaching reads. Skitter is significantly more logic based for instance that I can't help wondering if she's scum buddying.

this is basically what i feel wrt nauci, especially the bolded

I also don't think his arguments for any of his pushes or townreads are strong at all (I've commented on what I didn't like in my catchup). I felt like based on that game, if he were town here, he'd be posting at least something that would resonate with me. He does have scumreads but they often keep changing in ways that I can't really get behind the thought process underlying them and there's an element of following the crowd.

i'm getting the same vibe too - he feels very ... mercurial is a good word. he just lacks convcition about like everything; his votes keep changing and i don't really understand why; his read trajectories are really ???? and i can't really follow what he's thinking easily

Don't have it in me to ISO anyone right now, but I've made my stance clear on BS and (despite his saying otherwise) he's been my focus for today.

The only thing he's gotten right is the fact that I'm not voting him mostly because I'm just one vote

i hope things get better for you soon :)

i'm not entirely sure why you don't vote him anyways tbh. it's not like you have any bigger scumreads

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

yes but we stopped pushing that yesterday because you weren't here and i agree that wagoning someone v/la is kinda pointless and *strongly* disagree with lynching someone v/la or mia or an empty slot that can't claim or defend itself, i don't really have a problem with wagoning someone shortly before their declared v/la is to end with the understanding that the individual should have time to react to it when they get back

do you really think that bernie was trying ot lynch you while you weren't here? because i didn't get that vibe at all. (and if i did i would have made a huge thing protesting it even though i scurmead you because i don't believe in lynching people who aren't here). i felt that he was encouraging a wagon, which i don't think is the same thing as immediately encouraging a lynch

FTR vla should only stop a wagon d1 because it's about content/pressure then. I kind of just want flip now.

Also, Skitter Bernie admitted right here that he was aiming to push me to lynch and that my V/la means fuck all

Today, yeah.

ok i apparently read this whole thing wrong. i thought he wanted to wagon you while you were v/la with the understanding a lynch would only happen once you came back; i didn't realize he was pushing to lynch you during v/la - i very much object to this

--

@gustavo and @shoshin: you're both town but i think you should stop talking to each other for a bit; you're quibbling and i don't think either of you are going to see the other's side and it thus won't really get anywhere.

gustavo, even if you scumread her just let it be today; she isn't getting lynched today

shoshin i think you should just stop engaging him

--

I'm a doctor. I protected you last night.

I don't know if I'm the only doctor or protective in the game so I can't guarantee that Gustavo was the nightkill, but I'm guessing he was because it just makes a lot of sense.

this is good info to know but ffs :facepalm:

p-edit: can the two of you just stop it please?

[Gustavo]

So if you are town. You were combative when you didn’t need to be. You blatantly misrepped (lied) about your play last game (I proved this true), and you claimed doctor when you were under no threat of being lynched.

Yeah don’t worry if I’m wrong about you, I’ll never play with you again.

That said, I don’t think I’m wrong about you. It doesn’t matter though cause nobody is lynching you.

I will say that if you were town, there is no way scum would kill me so your story is definitely not believable. You as town were more likely the person to be killed.

Why would scum kill me unless my reads were right. If they are right you are scum