Excalibur [Endgame]

[Auro]

How was that a misrepresentation? This was our exchange back then.

Spoiler:

Hey GENIUSES going on about "oh the plan falls apart if 2-3 town don't cooperate"

What happens if Merlin doesn't claim? Then the plan is useless and it only took one town to 'ruin' it

False equivalence, JUST the Merlin player throwing the game is less likely than ANY 2-3 town from the 13 town not co-operating.

Hey GENIUSES going on about "oh the plan falls apart if 2-3 town don't cooperate"

What happens if Merlin doesn't claim? Then the plan is useless and it only took one town to 'ruin' it

False equivalence, JUST the Merlin player throwing the game is less likely than ANY 2-3 town from the 13 town not co-operating.

That's arguable

Also on the LLD note I think auro is expecting everyone in this game to play logically and that definitely won't happen knowing some of these players...

I'm constantly showing my disdain over the plausibility of everyone working together logically, lol.
I'm trying to find a strategy where we can make use of a good part of town working logically, and also account for a few town who won't.

@Dunnstral: Dependence on *one* player is a lot better than dependence on *13 players* at the same time. I think it's pretty clear

Going to reaffirm
HURT: Untrod Tripod

HEAL: Auro
Because he sounds better, consider this me unvoting him rather than expressing a townread

In exchange:

HURT: Elsa Jay

[Dunnstral]

What do you think I've been arguing Auro?

I never said all 13 town need to band together and join hands and spin in a circle, I compromised and said the three people who were definitely having a go at the sword (Varsoon, UT, LLD) could do so and we could work with that

I also said I'd like for people who were going to be lynched anyway to grab the sword and then step away so that the sword could be used again (and who knows, maybe they're arthur)

We really just need to put pressure on people and then when they feel like they're going to be mislynched, GRAB THE SWORD

I never ever said we needed the entire town to cooperate on something so I'm confused about what you're getting at - the whole basis of my arguments have been around some town working together, even what you just said:

LOL are you serious? I feel like me + DVa + maria have been saying some variation of this all game day long

AFAIR, you were arguing with me that the likelihood of *one* town screwing up as Merlin was arguably as much as two or three town out of 13 not co-operating. I said it's pretty clear that's untrue, and you then stopped engaging me there.

Something_Smart's pointing out that it's worth searching for a strategy expecting a degree of cohesion but not *perfect* cohesion, which early DVa's plan required.

Can you show me the relevant quotes from you guys that say this?

Shows that you understand this? Like, what do you think that 2-3 town is representing? That's who needs to co-operate... I WAS ARGUING WITH YOU RIGHT THERE ABOUT TWO-THREE TOWN COOPERATING

[Dunnstral]

The misrepresentation is you linking to 2 posts to describe my entire play in a game where I've posted over 100 times

It doesn't matter what's in those quotes

[Dunnstral]

Hey GENIUSES going on about "oh the plan falls apart if 2-3 town don't cooperate"

What happens if Merlin doesn't claim? Then the plan is useless and it only took one town to 'ruin' it

False equivalence, JUST the Merlin player throwing the game is less likely than ANY 2-3 town from the 13 town not co-operating.

That's arguable

What stance am I taking here:

1)We should get 1 town member to co-operate
2)We should get some town to co-operate, like 2-3 or even 4 or 5
3)We should get all 13 town members to co-operate

[Auro]

What do you think I've been arguing Auro?

I never said all 13 town need to band together and join hands and spin in a circle, I compromised and said the three people who were definitely having a go at the sword (Varsoon, UT, LLD) could do so and we could work with that

I also said I'd like for people who were going to be lynched anyway to grab the sword and then step away so that the sword could be used again (and who knows, maybe they're arthur)

We really just need to put pressure on people and then when they feel like they're going to be mislynched, GRAB THE SWORD

I never ever said we needed the entire town to cooperate on something so I'm confused about what you're getting at - the whole basis of my arguments have been around some town working together, even what you just said:

I see that, but there's a slight difference from what Something_Smart said. His intent in finding a strategy with a basic starting point of finding achievable town cohesion was transparent. You're saying that your actions later have expressed this intent (and that you were going to work towards a solution accounting for this), and I simply did not read it that way among the other posts. I'll read over your posts.

What stance am I taking here:

1)We should get 1 town member to co-operate
2)We should get some town to co-operate, like 2-3 or even 4 or 5
3)We should get all 13 town members to co-operate

If that was your stance while making it, cool! You can see how, at the time, I thought that was just a stubborn jab at Varsoon's strategy in favor of a strat that required 100% cohesion which would *probably* not happen - which could come from scum, right?

HEAL: Dunnstral

[Varsoon]

I literally just agreed about hypoclaim on this page.
Also, no, lynch pool doesn't become 12 if people don't claim because people won't know who is who and won't know that UNLESS THEY CLAIM. Worst case scenario is that Arthur gladiates Merlin or the Sword Holder. You're working on the assumption that the lynch pool is 12 without the claims because, once gladiated/run up, the player can claim, but then we haven't looked in that pool, we've just run up or, worse, gladiated a player we can't lynch due to IC, forcing our lynch onto the other option, which is awful because then there's no criticism that can really be levied for mislynches and no associatives based solely on voting.

Screw it.
You want townies to kill themselves impaling on Excalibur every night, go with that plan.
When we lose the game thanks to that rubbish plan, I'll be in post laughing at you.

I said I was done talking about this garbage on Page 10. Why am I still getting dragged into this?

Also, Dunn, just because I think your ideas are awful doesn't mean I'm going to hurt tag you over them. Sometimes you can be wrong and town, which is something I have to reconcile, because it either applies to me or like eight other people in this game right now.

[Auro]

Also, no, lynch pool doesn't become 12 if people don't claim because people won't know who is who and won't know that UNLESS THEY CLAIM. Worst case scenario is that Arthur gladiates Merlin or the Sword Holder. You're working on the assumption that the lynch pool is 12 without the claims because, once gladiated/run up, the player can claim, but then we haven't looked in that pool, we've just run up or, worse, gladiated a player we can't lynch due to IC, forcing our lynch onto the other option, which is awful because then there's no criticism that can really be levied for mislynches and no associatives based solely on voting.

Sorry I'm talking about mechanics again, but - this would be countered by consensus hurts well before the deadline, and sticking to an "ethical gladiating protocol". The most hurt gets to claim, and if not Merlin/Arthur, declares intent to gladiate another player (preferably second-most hurt) who gets a chance to claim. The prior interactions till then

with

the ICs are actually useful IMO, and should help this process.

[Auro]

And a gladiation policy doesn't require 100% town co-operation, just a significant chunk - which is easily achievable.

[Varsoon]

Not really, because if we do a Merlin Hypoclaim, scum have a very assured pool of who Merlin/Arthur are and can just play around those wagons in a way that won't create negative associative information.

I joined this game because I generally enjoy FakeGod games, but I should've realized how tediously governed the entire mechanical system would become. I really can't stand when that happens, even if it does give us a better chance to win. It's just not fun for me.

Honestly, I might dip out just because of that. I dunno.

[Auro]

Spoiler: Mechanics talk

Which implies that Merlin/Arthur can't easily be pushed to consensus gladiate, too - forcing them to look elsewhere for mislynches, which means that the case where Merlin/Arthur have to gladiate is less likely.

Even with a mislynch, if they don't get Merlin/Arthur in the NK, this means D3 ends up with 4 scum, 8 town, 1 Merlin.

The best-case benefit of hypoclaim+(no outing) is having an alive Merlin/Arthur+Swordholder in D3, which then narrows the effective lynch pool to 10 people - 4 of whom are scum (Assuming we'd follow an all-outing strategy then, although this could probably continue into further days). Seems pretty good compared to the cost of lack of associations to me, although I'll stop discussing mechanics for now and let better people figure this out.

[Varsoon]

Literally I am beyond caring.
Do whatever you guys want.

[Auro]

What are your scumreads at the moment?

[Varsoon]

DVa's the only one I have decent confidence on. I recently played BoR (of which this setup is a watered down version in a lot of ways) and DVa's play there was entirely different.

[Varsoon]

I should probably be more critical of UT and LLD but their posts and bullishness regarding the mechanics resonates with me a lot.

[Auro]

No one on the list of big personalities should be dueling people day 1. It's too galvanizing. Force of personality, in one direction or the other, will be a huge confounding factor and ruin too many connections.

I think a good day one duel would be Veridian v. Elsa, or Cakez v. UT or Auro v. Any of those names.

Make people take a stand.

1. What's your scumcase on me?
2. Is it that bad for a big personality to duel even if they have majority hurts? (Re-asking)
3. If town were to follow your plan of "make non-big personalities duel", this means I help my win-con as either alignment by asking a "big personality" replace into my slot - or any "non-big personality" slot who happens to be scumread by a few. Am I right?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

No one on the list of big personalities should be dueling people day 1. It's too galvanizing. Force of personality, in one direction or the other, will be a huge confounding factor and ruin too many connections.

I think a good day one duel would be Veridian v. Elsa, or Cakez v. UT or Auro v. Any of those names.

Make people take a stand.

1. What's your scumcase on me?
2. Is it that bad for a big personality to duel even if they have majority hurts? (Re-asking)
3. If town were to follow your plan of "make non-big personalities duel", this means I help my win-con as either alignment by asking a "big personality" replace into my slot - or any "non-big personality" slot who happens to be scumread by a few. Am I right?

You're polarizing in the reads catagory and I think that you've yet to give me a reason to believe your posting isn't scum hiding behind mechanics play. It's not a hard scum read, it's just a really good way of seeing where people fall and making them make a choice.

Yeah, I think it is. You only learn about how people feel about them... without any of their reads being checked. It's too easy to put a hurt on someone in the public eye and parrot people's thinking at them. People want to be agreed with and seen as "right". Most people would ignore it. It can't go that way.

It's only a one day thing and if the whole town was "big personalities" the overton window would shift towards even bigger ones within that group. Having less loud less big personalities is required, inevitable, and over time it functions to assist the game. It's just day 1 you can't do it without being punished and losing a lot of valuable info.

[Firebringer]

i am a medium personality

[Firebringer]

I should probably be more critical of UT and LLD but their posts and bullishness regarding the mechanics resonates with me a lot.

varsoon is a bully confirmed.

[Lady Lambdadelta]

i am a medium personality

I don't disagree. You're not nearly as loud as others, but in some games you're definitely the loudest at the table.

[Firebringer]

i am as loud as the table. sometimes the table is a lie.

[Something_Smart]

I literally just agreed about hypoclaim on this page.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "we're on the same page".

Also, no, lynch pool doesn't become 12 if people don't claim because people won't know who is who and won't know that UNLESS THEY CLAIM. Worst case scenario is that Arthur gladiates Merlin or the Sword Holder. You're working on the assumption that the lynch pool is 12 without the claims because, once gladiated/run up, the player can claim, but then we haven't looked in that pool, we've just run up or, worse, gladiated a player we can't lynch due to IC, forcing our lynch onto the other option, which is awful because then there's no criticism that can really be levied for mislynches and no associatives based solely on voting.

Do you agree that everyone should be announcing intent to gladiate before they do so? I bet if we tell people to, they will, especially since if someone yolo gladiates Merlin or Arthur it never ends well for them.

Screw it.
You want townies to kill themselves impaling on Excalibur every night, go with that plan.
When we lose the game thanks to that rubbish plan, I'll be in post laughing at you.

I said I was done talking about this garbage on Page 10. Why am I still getting dragged into this?

Look at you Mr. Mind Reader over there, telling me what I want and don't want when all I'm doing is keeping an open mind (and I still haven't stated what I think is the best plan because I don't know yet).

Also, Dunn, just because I think your ideas are awful doesn't mean I'm going to hurt tag you over them. Sometimes you can be wrong and town, which is something I have to reconcile, because it either applies to me or like eight other people in this game right now.

So why'd you hurt tag me? The previous paragraph seems to imply you think I'm town anyway.

[Untrod Tripod]

I should probably be more critical of UT and LLD but their posts and bullishness regarding the mechanics resonates with me a lot.

varsoon is a bully confirmed.

[Firebringer]

UT the only person i love in this playerlist is Dva. But don't tell her.

[Varsoon]

Dunnstrall isn't trying to rope me into more mechanics discussion when it's already pissed me off so much the mod warned me to stop.

I'm done talking about mechanics.

Also, I really think people should look at https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=77673 and try to evaluate if Auro's play here matches how he played in this scum win he literally got today. I'm way way way too close to it to make an unbiased judgment.

[Untrod Tripod]

UT the only person i love in this playerlist is Dva. But don't tell her.