Changes to Normal Games (update September 2022)

[Gamma Emerald]

At this point it looks like "jailkeeper" has been transition from a role to a concept

[mastina]

At this point it looks like "jailkeeper" has been transition from a role to a concept

Not exactly wrong; it is a nifty reference point for discussing revisions to Normal Game Guidelines. It is the prototypical combination role.

[Alchemist21]

Is there a reason Masonizer isn’t whitelisted? Masons are whitelisted and Loyal Neighborizer, which is extremely close to Masonizer, is a legal combo. Personally I’d like to see Masonizer used more in games.

[schadd_]

combine loyal neighborizer + friendly neighbor

[callforjudgement]

Masonizer is almost impossible to balance around.

I tried something similar once (balancing around Weak Neighbourizer), and it left the rest of the town power so weak that town didn't have much fun.

It might work a bit better in a Large, but it's unbalanced for the same reason that Cults are; if the recruiter doesn't die quickly, they nearly always win.

[mastina]

Masonizer is almost impossible to balance around.

Ungated masonizer, sure, but a masonizer can easily be gated with a reasonable modifier--most likely, one-shot.

A one-shot masonizer is a stronger one-shot cop, confirming both the target and user as town rather than just the target.

That's significantly easier to balance around, yes?

[callforjudgement]

It's still pretty difficult, but less so.

There's still an absolutely huge swing if the Masonizer dies (or is forced to claim, allowing scum to shoot them overnight) before they can use their shot.

[Skygazer]

thats easy, just have backup one-shot loyal friendly-neighbor neighborizer

...

[Lycanfire]

Backup Mason is arguably the better role for anti swing

[mastina]

It's still pretty difficult, but less so. There's still an absolutely huge swing if the Masonizer dies (or is forced to claim, allowing scum to shoot them overnight) before they can use their shot.

Same is true for a one-shot cop.

[Not Known 15]

It's still pretty difficult, but less so. There's still an absolutely huge swing if the Masonizer dies (or is forced to claim, allowing scum to shoot them overnight) before they can use their shot.

Same is true for a one-shot cop.

Well, not exactly. A one-shot cop is less powerful.

[popsofctown]

How is it "an absolutely huge swing" for a one shot masonizer to be forced to claim? They're getting downgraded from a role worth 2 ICs down to 1 IC. The second IC effect was targetable and more powerful than an average clear, sure, but the first IC effect clearly was too: it was someone who would have been mislynched, but for the role. So, you're shifting from a role that, in a vacuum, is an average clear + an above average clear to instead be just an above average clear. So the swing is 1 average clear. That's gotta be about as small as swings get.

[callforjudgement]

Ah right, I missed that the control over the scum kill was particularly valuable here. (This does imply a fairly bad interaction with scum roleblockers, though, who make

both

confirmations invalid, but at least you can avoid that particular design.)

Incidentally, a one-confirmation kill isn't all that small; most swings are smaller than that (e.g. a Tracker dying D1 rather than D2 is a swing, but not a big one, and that sort of swing happens all the time in setups).

[Oversoul]

At this point it looks like "jailkeeper" has been transition from a role to a concept

Why exactly did that happen? I never really thought it’s interactions were clunky.

[Gamma Emerald]

That's not what I meant

[implosion]

Hello once more, friends!

This isn't a normal rules update, just an FYI: last night, I went through and released something like a year's worth of review PTs, both for regular reviews and pre-designed setup creation. If you're interested in getting a look at what the new normal review process has become, or what pre-designed setup creation looks like, head on over!

If you have any questions or comment, feel free to put them in this thread.

[OkaPoka]

me gusta

[Gamma Emerald]

Has there been discussion of including the Personal modifier in the normal whitelist?

[mastina]

Has there been discussion of including the Personal modifier in the normal whitelist?

Uh, quite possibly?

[Nexus]

Bloody hell you've been normal list mod for ages.

[Gamma Emerald]

What?

[Wake1]

I'm unsure which thread is the right place to ask this, but is it possible to make Super Saint an acceptable role in Normal games?

We already have the Vengeful modifier which allows the lynched to kill anyone they want. The SS seems like a far more restricted role: weaker than Vengeful modifier.

[callforjudgement]

Supersaint makes vote/hammer order relevant; it normally isn't in Normals.

As such, I don't think this would be a good idea, because optimal play in a game that could potentially contain a Supersaint is to for town to leash who hammers on every single lynch (even if there isn't an actual Supersaint there). That would end up making all Normals worse, even ones without the role, for a very minimal game; so the role should probably be blacklisted.

[Wake1]

Supersaint makes vote/hammer order relevant; it normally isn't in Normals.

As such, I don't think this would be a good idea, because optimal play in a game that could potentially contain a Supersaint is to for town to leash who hammers on every single lynch (even if there isn't an actual Supersaint there). That would end up making all Normals worse, even ones without the role, for a very minimal game; so the role should probably be blacklisted.

I don't understand why Vengeful is allowed then, because the Vengeful modifier is far more powerful, allowing the lynched to kill literally anyone.

[Plum]

A role being Normal has little to do with its power level. The impact on play across games based on a consistent limited set of roles and interactions is very important to Normalcy as a body, and callforjudgement's answer is basically what I think is the correct answer for why Supersaint is not an appropriate choice for a Normal role.

That said Vengeful itself is kind of a strange Normal role - not because it's too powerful, but because it acts in Twilight, a game phase that otherwise doesn't formally exist in Normal games at all.

Edit: I do get what you're saying - isn't Supersaint a strict subset of Vengeful? But really the fact that it interacts with a part of the game that no other Normal roles interact with - previous placement of votes - that makes it questionable for inclusion as a Normal Role. Some Normal modifiers key off of alignment and Vanilla/not-Vanilla status, but nothing keys off of discrete typical dayplay interactions like whom a player voted and whether they placed the hammer vote.