Mini Normal 2115: Fin

[gobbledygook]

VC 1.2

Looker
EeveeLution Army
Wimpy
Ame
Luca Blight
Alchemist21 (2) - insomnia, Macabre
Chara
Macabre (2) - Alchemist21, Wimpy
insomnia (1) - AaronFrost
JTheophrastus Bartholomew (2) - profii, Egix96
profii (3) - Chara, Ame, Luca Blight
AaronFrost
Egix96 (1) - JTheophrastus Bartholomew

Not Voting

(2) — Looker, EeveeLution Army

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2020-01-24 16:00:00)[/color]

[Alchemist21]

Spoiler:

@Alchemist: Considering the reasoning behind the two posts above, do you still hold somni's post as coming from town? Additionally, if you had to gamble on who mafia were at this point, who would you choose?

I disagree with them and still think Insomnia is Town.

I’m not compelled to move my vote from Macabre but if I had to I would move it to Profii.

My perspective on insomnia's 57 is that mafia often dance around their reads because they know they are pushing town and so are sensitive to the fact that their reasoning is flawed in some way. That's the impression I get from somni's read on you. (1) Do you think this is a valid interpretation? (2) And if you still disagree, what specifically makes you think otherwise? Furthermore, you stated that insomnia plays aggressively as town. (3) Have you played in a game where he was scum? (3a) And if not, what makes you think he wouldn't play the same way as scum? Surely he'd want to emulate his town style.

I wasn't clear with my question before: (4) if you had to gamble on who the mafia

team

was at this point, who would you choose? Basically, I'm interested in your suspicions other than profii. If you're not comfortable answering the team question, I'd just like to hear your general suspicions on players (not town reads).

(5) For what reason are you not inclined to remove your vote from Mac? You stated before that your vote was just an attempt at moving out of RVS.

When you respond, could you number each question as provided?

To add to Wimpy's post: it is AI because it indicates that were not making a genuine attempt at game solving and that your reasoning was made up after the fact in response to somni's inquiry.

I’ll answer 1-3 jointly because the answers are all related. I think the other takes on Insomnia are understandable and my disagreement is largely based on my previous experience with Insomnia. I’ve only played with him once, as Town, but I do think he’s Town here because he’s taking our history into account when trying to read me. He could mimic an aggressive style as scum, but last time we were both Town and got into a big argument with each other and it didn’t exactly end well for me. If he was scum who wanted to push me he could have just done the exact same thing and it would have looked just like last time and he could have just written me off as a bad player if he got me lynched to absolve himself of the mistake. I don’t really see him being scum taking the WIFOM route of taking our history into account because why would scum feel a need to tailor their play towards a single player they played with exactly once? His quick timing to correct himself also comes off as more Towny to me - scum would more likely have double checked their post to make sure what they said makes sense. This looked like a knee-jerk response followed by realization they read the post wrong.

4) I don’t have any other suspicions right now so I can’t try to name a whole team right now.

5) Macabre’s posts are confusing to me and if they continue to be then I doubt I’ll be able to read him and would rather lynch it than keep having to keep being confused. If I stop being confused by their posts then I’ll be willing to change my vote. My problem with Profii isn’t big enough to change from Macabre because I can develop a better understanding of Profii to know if they’re scum or not as the game goes on.

Thanks! A few more questions:

-Knowing that I am scarf boy and profii is chimera, which of Mac's posts don't you understand?

-Given this:

insomnia - why ask that question? it doesn't help you figure him out

alch - yes it does, it tells me that he responds well to pressure

The bolded is the issue. I don't want to be endlessly harassed doesn't mean I like pressure or I respond well to it. It just means i am not going to take my ball and go home every time I am pressured.

Do you agree that your conclusion of Wimpy was premature/incorrect? (If not, please explain how the last two lines are not true).

-Lastly, do you think this reasoning is valid:

To add to Wimpy's post: it is AI because it indicates that were not making a genuine attempt at game solving and that your reasoning was made up after the fact in response to somni's inquiry.

(And if not, why?)

Macabre thinks I made some kind of Freudian slip with me and Wimpy when I’m trying to understand his posts and am obviously confused by them and I don’t know why and I’m expecting myself to be confused again when he starts talking about more people. Also, the term “sleeps with,” which is what confused me initially, is apparently an accusation of you two being scum together but I never got a clear answer on that from Macabre, and if there are more euphemisms like that in store I’ll probably be confused by them too.

Wimpy keeps saying he actually does respond poorly to pressure so I guess my conclusion is premature. I’m also open to the idea that he’s being modest but if something happens down the line I’ll just remember Wimpy warned us in advance.

Lastly, no that reasoning isn’t valid. Knowing the type of player you’re dealing with is important to developing a better read. Knowing someone’s general tendencies helps filter out what’s NAI from actually scummy stuff in their posts. I think you can look at my conversation with Wimpy before Insomnia asked about it and see I was trying to determine who he was as a player there, I asked for clarification of his posts and when the response wasn’t what I expected I adjusted my take on Wimpy. I don’t see what people think would be the scum motivation for that. I guess people thought the question had a condescending tone and I was trying to stir the pot but in that case I wouldn’t have re-evaluated on Wimpy.

[insomnia]

My perspective on insomnia's 57 is that mafia often dance around their reads because they know they are pushing town and so are sensitive to the fact that their reasoning is flawed in some way.

Ok, don't misrep me here. That read was not because I was dancing around my scum read, I am actually more a type of in your face kind of guy, I don't back down on my scum reads as either alignment. But whatever. Actually, I'm more likely to challenge someone that calls out my read.

The progression was exactly this :

>read that post devoid of context. so, i just saw the second question instead of the first and gave my reaction on that
> looked back to re-check what the whole context was about
> realized that in context it was actually reasonable, but I was still scum reading him for the question that, at it's core, doesn't help him sort wimpy;s alignment. That's the analysis I am making, if I don't see questions that have an intent at sorting, I react at them almost immediately, especially if it's something like that.

If I believed it was a bad push, I would've rechecked and not even posted that, or, if I posted it, I'd keep pushing the idea, not knowing I fucked up. It really is like that with me.

[Looker]

Okay, I think I'm here now. First, the simple approach.

@Ame / JTheophrastus Bartholomew / Luca Blight / Egix96 / profii:

Who among you is town? I don't really expect any of you to know, but it's good for managing consistency in the future. I personally have no idea.

VOTE: Luca Blight Votes keep the game moving

[insomnia]

To clarify the last arrow, I didn't retract anything, I was just apologizing for making him look like a malicious person, not because of my scum read on him. That's maybe where you and the others found it scummy and where I didn't really explain a lot on, mainly because I thought it would be obvious.

Which also explains why my vote is still standing on Alch. I never retracted my read, I just apologized for blowing that out of proportion.

[EeveeLution Army]

early townread on alchemist imo. not my normal hard read but its worth an early one

[Chara]

Looker wearing his heart on his sleeve (along with his process) is interesting. i kind of like it.

best townread right now is probably insomnia. that he can talk about it so much while being internally consistent feels good to me. though i could be biased in that i TRed the initial interaction regarding Alch to begin with.

Alch's 201, or rather the end of it, i agree with completely. i said as much when we started about finding it a good idea to figure out how players tick. i don't find Alch misunderstanding wimpy's answer to be scum indicative, and i'm not sure why it would be. especially since the given scum motivation to that (i forget who said this, sorry) was something along the lines of trying to get players to push wimpy in order for him to react badly. that's a strategy i personally find just a little bit gross, not awful or anything but not something i believe Alch would attempt as scum in the first place.

pedit: i can give a plus one to that. though it's more a disagreement with what he's being pushed for.

[insomnia]

I still don’t think alchemist is town. Something about his read on me doesn’t think that it awards a town read. A one game experience is not enough to predict how a person would react, let alone understand that person’s thought process.

His read on me can be summarized as “He could’ve also done that, but he didn’t. He could’ve kept pushing, etc”

There’s a lot of variables in there that he has no knowledge on, so I don’t know why his read is that strong. I think my play here is a lot different as well.

[insomnia]

By the way, I think because of my aggressive and tunnely play style, people would much rather lock me town than having to deal with me, so there’s also definitely a motivation for scum!Alch to town read me here.

But I don’t want this to turn into a tunnel again, I’mma let him do his work, I’ll do mine and at EoD if I have nothing better, I’ll most likely advocate for his lynch.

[JTheophrastus Bartholomew]

Okay, I think I'm here now. First, the simple approach.

@Ame / JTheophrastus Bartholomew / Luca Blight / Egix96 / profii:

Who among you is town? I don't really expect any of you to know, but it's good for managing consistency in the future. I personally have no idea.

VOTE: Luca Blight Votes keep the game moving

Me, Ame and pertentially Luca.
For whomever was asking I currently have scum reads on both profii and egix. which is why I'm voiting there.

[Chara]

what do you think of my townread on you?

pedit: to insomnia.

[JTheophrastus Bartholomew]

Also, are you from dgames?

I don't know what dgames is so that'll be a no

[insomnia]

what do you think of my townread on you?

pedit: to insomnia.

I can follow your thought process on it. It’s much more focused on what’s actually here instead of alch’s additional meta read, which feels contrived.

[insomnia]

I can also tell you don’t have any agenda in town reading me or anything, it kind of flowed naturally, in the sense that you noticed that retraction, gave it a town read, focused elsewhere and when the time came to express some reads you remembered that retraction which you initially town read. Feels natural.

[Ame]

@Chara what didn't you like about profiis jtb vote?

[Chara]

that it assigned an alignment to an NAI opinion about day 1. even if saying "first scum" sounds like an exaggeration/joke from profii. not the biggest thing but as i still haven't found anything else to chew on i'm fine with it, and profii's posting in general doesn't have townvibes so far. it's really not a big read, but since i didn't elaborate before i get why you're asking.

it does make me wonder about what seems to be a consensus against profii, who as far as i can see hasn't done anything acutely scummy except for "bad vibes". not sure yet if it means an intuitive feeling on the part of some townies that she's scum, or scum seeing some remarks against a player and deciding they work.

insomnia: thanks for the answer.

[Looker]

Permanent townread on the guy with the glasses - you make me feel comfortable. Beauty is really reassuring.

[AaronFrost]

I kind of agree with you on profii. Last game I played with him he felt pretty obviously town. Granted I was scum in that game so I didn't exactly have to read him too much but I could never push him either. Not quite getting the same vibes from him here as he's been mostly under the radar.

Imagine for a moment that profii is someone you've never played a game with before - what do you think of him now?

Probably more towards null territory but still a scumlean. He's the second highest poster in the game right now but I feel like he hasn't said much of value.

One thing I find interesting about this wagon is that no one has really jumped to profii's defense. Most people seem to have him as a scumread and/or are voting him right now. Is anybody townreading him right now? If so why?

I'm too lazy to count how many votes are on him atm so I'm just gonna wait until gobbles updates us with a VC before I look at the wagon.

[Ame]

@Insomnia

I understood your ~town train of thought; however, I believe what I posted is a valid hypothesis for what may have actually been going on as ~scum. That being said, I believe you and my impression has reversed. Rereading your posts, they read natural and uncontrived. I also agree with your reasoning behind your Alch read in 207. I was expecting ~town Alch to lessen his read of you based on the reasoning I presented (that hasn't seen your scum game). The fact that he stood by it is worrying. However, I am leaning town because I think that finding someone suspicious for opening with "hi" is absurd enough that scum wouldn't be inclined to post it.

@Aaron

you stated in 184 that you hadn't seen insomnia's retraction when you made your vote in 75, but in 133 you referenced his retraction as a part of why you scum read him:

So what are you scum reading me for again?

Mostly for post 56 which felt a little exaggerated and forced to me. Followed by your immediate retraction about two minutes later. To me it read like 'oh shit I said something that might be perceived as scummy better retract it real quick.'

It's not a strong read tbh but it's a start.

Could you clarify.

@Chara

[Ame]

Ignore the @chara, that's for the next post.

[AaronFrost]

To clarify the last arrow, I didn't retract anything, I was just apologizing for making him look like a malicious person, not because of my scum read on him. That's maybe where you and the others found it scummy and where I didn't really explain a lot on, mainly because I thought it would be obvious.

Which also explains why my vote is still standing on Alch. I never retracted my read, I just apologized for blowing that out of proportion.

I wasn't trying to imply that you retracted the read so sorry if it came off that way. What I didn't like was how you acknowledged that it was overblown. It felt like you were trying to do some early damage control.

Someone (I don't remember who sorry) brought up the point that scum!you might be more cautious of how you worded that though so that is something I'm taking into consideration.

[AaronFrost]

@Aaron

you stated in 184 that you hadn't seen insomnia's retraction when you made your vote in 75, but in 133 you referenced his retraction as a part of why you scum read him:

So what are you scum reading me for again?

Mostly for post 56 which felt a little exaggerated and forced to me. Followed by your immediate retraction about two minutes later. To me it read like 'oh shit I said something that might be perceived as scummy better retract it real quick.'

It's not a strong read tbh but it's a start.

Could you clarify.

Sure

Basically both posts gave me pings. 56 felt overblown and forced and then 57 felt like he was trying to do damage control. I thought I commented on 57 after that post but I guess I didn't (maybe I was tired or something not sure).

[Alchemist21]

@Aaron

What are your thoughts on me? You’ve said a lot about Insomnia and Profii and most of their posts have been focused around my interaction with Wimpy so I’m interested to see what you think about the topic they’ve been posting about.

[Ame]

@Chara

Looker wearing his heart on his sleeve (along with his process) is interesting. i kind of like it.

(1) What in Looker's post above are you referencing as wearing their heart on their sleeve? (2) Have you played with Looker before?


You stated in 162 that you voted for profii because of his JTB vote post, and provided your reasoning in 214 that it was because it assigned AI to a NAI opinon:

Egix: i was wondering why you were concerned about what seemed to be two of many random votes flying around, but it does look like you had a reason. i voted profii for 10, mainly.

@Chara what didn't you like about profiis jtb vote?

that it assigned an alignment to an NAI opinion about day 1. even if saying "first scum" sounds like an exaggeration/joke from profii. not the biggest thing but as i still haven't found anything else to chew on i'm fine with it, and profii's posting in general doesn't have townvibes so far. it's really not a big read, but since i didn't elaborate before i get why you're asking.

But you agreed with his reasoning here:

Nobody is a fan of day 1.

Yet we all have to do it

So I find it really frustrating in every other game I play when someone comes in and goes "Day one? Nope"

It's not fair on all the other players

+1
i'm fine with day 1 because the first step for me in understanding how to read someone is getting a feel for how they play and think.

(3) Could you clarify.

(4) What do you think of JTB's scum reads?
(5) What do you think of Aaron's play so far and the contradiction I mentioned above (and am going to subsequently respond to)?

[Alchemist21]

Okay, I think I'm here now. First, the simple approach.

@Ame / JTheophrastus Bartholomew / Luca Blight / Egix96 / profii:

Who among you is town? I don't really expect any of you to know, but it's good for managing consistency in the future. I personally have no idea.

VOTE: Luca Blight Votes keep the game moving

Why did you pick these names for this question. Why did you vote Luca out of all of them?