Open 773: Masons and Mafia: RVS Awards (GAME OVER)

[Klick]

Spoiler: Mostly off-topic preface to Enter

Can't find the post in your ISO on my phone atm, but I think you said something about me along the lines of sensing that I'm avoiding interacting with you. That would be basically accurate, and if we're ever going to cooperate in this game I should probably at least explain why I'm doing that so you can understand my thought process better.

I play Mafia on this site for fun. I've mostly stopped playing Mafia because I find it increasingly difficult to have fun playing here. That's in large part because of the playerbase - there is a decently-sized group of users who can't help but get toxic in games and elsewhere around the site. You fall into that category. (It's also worth mentioning that I'm a particularly sensitive person even in the context of this site, so I'm willing to accept that this could be an overreaction/partially me not having the capacity to get over myself.)

When you first got pretty active as the Enter alt, I actually enjoyed a lot of the points you would make particularly in the Speakeasy. In a lot of circumstances it felt like you were making a lot of sense in contrast to the MS hive mind, and you weren't being a dick about it. Then I stopped paying attention to the forum for a few months, came back and kept finding a ton of inflammatory stuff from you. And I joined Correspondence Mafia because it looked like a good time, and while most slots in that game flaked because of the activity limitations, I lost all interest when you tried to pick a fight with me over a fairly innocuous request for you to answer an outstanding question. Combine that with what I've seen around the site, and I'm just not that interested in playing with someone who, from what I've seen, is mostly here to pick fights with people on the Internet. And like I said, that's probably mostly on me for choosing to play Mafia of all games.

But I don't think it's a coincidence that my impulse in this game was initially to avoid contact with Miss Lynch. Your arguments with TSE throughout the game have really demoralised me from going back and reading things. I considered replacing out when I found out you were Enter, but I've mostly stuck around because this is my favorite setup and most of this playerlist is great.

We're at MyLo at this point, so if you're town I'm going to have to cooperate with you. You seem aware enough of that that we should be able to progress smoothly from here if you're town. I'm not interested in going further into out-of-game stuff - it's just going to clog the thread without sufficient purpose and be fun for no one - but I figure you should have a basic explanation for why I've been avoiding interacting with you.

So the main thing that gives me the heebie jeebies about ML is her townslip. On Page 41 after the Egix lynch, she shows a lack of setup knowledge that scum would definitely have. To be clear, regardless of her alignment I read it as super fake. Cheeky shooting herself makes zero sense to the point that I don't think it's the assumption anyone makes of the situation. Also, the distance between her post at 1005 and her 'realisation' at 1006 is literally 31 seconds.

@ML: Are your townslips fake?
If not, can you please explain how you thought this setup worked when you were making your posts on Page 41?

The problem is that I think ML-town could conceivably be faking her lack of setup knowledge if she felt it would get her townread. I don't know how much it's worth putting weight to that consideration though.

The other thing I'm finding suspicious is how her reads are framed. It feels like she's organising her reads to allow herself to both take stances and allow herself to flip on those stances when it's convenient. The amount of times she's thrown my name out/wondered why people aren't suspecting me while simultaneously not pushing any real case against me is the best example of this. She's expressing controversial reads in comparison to the status quo, but she's not doing anything about them, implying she's actually fine with how things are currently. I know Auro said he liked ML's read on him, but I really... don't? Her current strong townread on Auro leaves open the caveat that he could just be really strong scum, and spends a lot of time clarifying that he looks exactly how she would expect scum to look. There's dissonance between what she claims to believe and how she tries to appear. This also happens in her reads on Chemist and pops (I appreciated how vague the '50% clear' comment was after Cheeky flipped scum). Most notably, she has remarkably little interest in the Suji push despite Suji being in all her PoE pools, and seems to be shopping around for alternatives today while looking like she has Suji down as scum.

Heading out for now, but basically I think she faked her townslip, and her reads don't match up with how she's trying to influence the game.

This post gave pretty much all my thoughts on you-scum. You responded to the townslip stuff and I think it could go either way, but you didn't really have a response to the second half about your reads. Your reads feel convenient while also trying to look like they're against the grain.

The main thing I'd add to that is that your push on me just now/criticism of the CSF push feels super weak/unsubstantiated and reactionary.

Also, as you seem to have put together the solve that looks most likely to me right now is you/CSF/Auro. You/Auro in particular have interactions today that have pinged me as SvS. Auro's switch over to scum!Klick seemed to happen when I started presenting rationale for Chemist!town and pops!town, but it also coincided with when the first semblance of pressure started up on you. TSE keeps suggesting a vote on you, but Auro is just sort of ignoring that/pushing it aside without actually quashing it. You'd think as town that reads you town, he'd be concerned about the possibility of TSE voting you without him tomorrow.
My read earlier of you/Auro being TvS also seems to be close to the forefront of his mind - he brought it up quickly when I suggested him/Suji was TvS earlier. This makes me think he was thinking about it consciously, which I think is indicative of you two being partners. There's a decent chance he's been banking on my read of you two being TvS for a while now.

A big motivating factor for wanting to lynch CSF is that I haven't seen a reason to townread her that I gel with thus far, yet she's getting widely townread for relatively little content. For someone you're consistently calling 'lynchbait' she's had zero legitimate pressure until now.
I also really like pops' point about her potentially minimising her interactions - her reads throughout the game feel super milquetoast and I don't think there's a player in the game that I'd say is particularly unlikely to be buddies with her in a vacuum. I think that's by design.

I also really don't like this post by Auro about CSF:

How is it a good case? There's something about people not including her in teams, and her "minimizing interactions" - I never got that impression through CSF's posting this game. She's been asking questions whenever she comes online.

That first point is pretty good and you're just kinda saying it like it's nothing - it's the main thing putting me in the 'this is a solid lynch' camp

That first point is pretty good

No, it's not. She's interacting with people when she comes to the thread. Every instance she's been here she's been asking questions. Point me to any question directed to her she avoided.

Turns out he thought so little of the first point that he didn't even realise I was referring to it - I was talking about the bit where pops said people weren't including CSF in their PoE pools. But he takes the 'minimizing interactions' point and shoves it in a box to mean 'avoiding questions' instead. CSF asks questions and doesn't avoid them, but that's not what 'minimizing interactions' means and he should know that.

Those are the main things tying together a CSF/ML/Auro team for me at the moment.

[Miss Lane]

Additionally, I think explanations for votes are overrated and used far more often than warranted. While it's possible, even likely, that we don't see eye-to-eye on this matter, thinking that it's scummy seems to be a bit of a stretch in my opinion.

Finally, I think it's pretty scummy that of the players in the game right now, the only two you can really list as possibly scummy are Homura and me. Several players have acted outside the bounds of solid, consistently town play and have solid reasons for suspicion, but none of them seem to catch your eye at all.

Which players fit this criteria?

Klick, woodchuck, Asgor, chemist

That's the post I've been scumreading you from.

I can case you if you'd like, but me scumreading you is pretty damn hard to argue is reactionary.

[Miss Lane]

He's calling the whole thing about me v auro as SvT because when you said it it was scummy as fuck and it is also consistently contradictory with your views on the game.

[Miss Lane]

I think if you legitimately read my posts and you can't gather that I'm still trying to figure out where I stand because I'm not entirely sold on any one subject yet, that's a you problem. I'm not going to go to extra efforts to convey that, and I think most other people have caught on. Also TSE is the ONLY player pushing my vote right now other than you, and I think that's the only reason you're trying to take it seriously. I think if you pay any attention whatsoever to how consistently TSE misrepresents the people he is discussing with or fights straw men or just how completely he fails to understand anything about what is going on at all, you will very much understand why Auro has yet to take his pushes seriously.

[popsofctown]

TSE is sometimes wrong, but that doesn't mean he's never right. He had a perfect solve in Assassins. Come on now, if you're town you don't need to stoop to that ML.

[Miss Lane]

A big motivating factor for wanting to lynch CSF is that I haven't seen a reason to townread her that I gel with thus far, yet she's getting widely townread for relatively little content. For someone you're consistently calling 'lynchbait' she's had zero legitimate pressure until now.

'lynchbait' was the wrong word.

This isn't a good reason to want to lynch anyone, BTW. Push? Sure. Lynch? Definitely not until you've seen something you like from them. And putting votes down in Mylo is sketchy.

I also really like pops' point about her potentially minimising her interactions - her reads throughout the game feel super milquetoast and I don't think there's a player in the game that I'd say is particularly unlikely to be buddies with her in a vacuum. I think that's by design.

Are you trying to say... she's lurking? Because that's a really fancy and complicated way of saying that that throws a whole lot more shade on her than is maybe deserving of someone who is lurking.

[Miss Lane]

TSE is sometimes wrong, but that doesn't mean he's never right. He had a perfect solve in Assassins. Come on now, if you're town you don't need to stoop to that ML.

You obviously haven't had a conversation with him like I've had.

Have you seen our interactions?
Are your interactions with him nothing like mine?

[Miss Lane]

Have you seen the way he responds to me?

I think my reaction is very much justified, especially if you'd dealt with him across multiple games the way I have.

[Miss Lane]

TSE stop calling me sweetheart.

Ok sweetheart.

This sums up my interactions with him pretty well, if you discount the 70% of interactions that are him completely failing to understand what I'm saying or him adding something completely inane.

[popsofctown]

You're taking this angle that something is even less likely to be true than if TSE didn't have an opinion on it at all. That's pretty clearly wrong.

I've found TSE obnoxious in some contexts but it's weird the way you're somehow linking him to an argument that TSE has Insane Cop cleared you in the thread

[Klick]

I can case you if you'd like, but me scumreading you is pretty damn hard to argue is reactionary.

But that's not what I said. I said your

push

on me, and your criticism of the CSF push, feel weak and reactionary. You've been limping Klick!scum for ages, but you're only going hard now.

He's calling the whole thing about me v auro as SvT because when you said it it was scummy as fuck and it is also consistently contradictory with your views on the game.

Explain why you think this?
Regardless, this is obviously false for Auro, who claimed to have a townread on me up until today. Not sure why you're putting words in his mouth.

I think if you pay any attention whatsoever to how consistently TSE misrepresents the people he is discussing with or fights straw men or just how completely he fails to understand anything about what is going on at all, you will very much understand why Auro has yet to take his pushes seriously.

How is that relevant? If Auro thinks TSE is town and you're town, it doesn't matter if he thinks TSE's read on you is bollocks - he

has

to care about TSE's read on you.

And so do you, if you're town and you think TSE is town.

[Klick]

A big motivating factor for wanting to lynch CSF is that I haven't seen a reason to townread her that I gel with thus far, yet she's getting widely townread for relatively little content. For someone you're consistently calling 'lynchbait' she's had zero legitimate pressure until now.

'lynchbait' was the wrong word.

This isn't a good reason to want to lynch anyone, BTW. Push? Sure. Lynch? Definitely not until you've seen something you like from them. And putting votes down in Mylo is sketchy.

For what it's worth I have zero expectation that CSF will get the 5 votes needed to get lynched today, especially if my solve is right. But I'm still going to try, and I think it's been productive and will continue to be productive.

I also really like pops' point about her potentially minimising her interactions - her reads throughout the game feel super milquetoast and I don't think there's a player in the game that I'd say is particularly unlikely to be buddies with her in a vacuum. I think that's by design.

Are you trying to say... she's lurking? Because that's a really fancy and complicated way of saying that that throws a whole lot more shade on her than is maybe deserving of someone who is lurking.

Not just lurking - 'active lurking' is the most accurate meta label you could stick on it, if you really want. But it goes deeper than that - I think she's avoiding content that will help solve her and her partners. That's why all of the linking content that I've found for my solve has come from you and Auro, not her.

[Miss Lane]

You're taking this angle that something is even less likely to be true than if TSE didn't have an opinion on it at all. That's pretty clearly wrong.

I've found TSE obnoxious in some contexts but it's weird the way you're somehow linking him to an argument that TSE has Insane Cop cleared you in the thread

What? How am I doing this?

[Miss Lane]

Starting from TSE has never demonstrated any form of understanding of mafia (at least as far as I've seen);
Explain to me why I should care what TSE's read on me is if I'm town and he's town?
Why Auro should care what TSE's read on me is if he's town and TSE is town?

[Miss Lane]

But that's not what I said. I said your push on me, and your criticism of the CSF push, feel weak and reactionary. You've been limping Klick!scum for ages, but you're only going hard now.

I'm not going hard on anything/

I am not pushing anything.

You haven't played with me in a while if you think this is me pushing.

[Miss Lane]

Earlier today I

slightly

pushed you to the point where I indicated that I'm starting to want you lynched.

Up until that point i have not had a solid "this is a person I am pushing" at all. On anyone.

[Miss Lane]

But that's not what I said. I said your push on me, and your criticism of the CSF push, feel weak and reactionary. You've been limping Klick!scum for ages, but you're only going hard now.

There's no way this is what you meant initially.

How is my "push on you reactionary" if my read has been constant?
Are you saying I was preparing a scum read on you from the beginning of the game only to push it in the eventuality that you decided to push me?
I said CSF is likely town a long time ago.

Literally all of your "problems" with me can be answered by just reading my earlier posts.

[Miss Lane]

"limping Klick!scum"
lul
Explain what this means.

Please quote my posts that support this argument

wow i'm actually so mad after reading that post.

i'm so afraid you're not scum and you actually just haven't read shit of what i've done

[Miss Lane]

i'm shaking

read my shit, klick

then come back

[popsofctown]

You're taking this angle that something is even less likely to be true than if TSE didn't have an opinion on it at all. That's pretty clearly wrong.

I've found TSE obnoxious in some contexts but it's weird the way you're somehow linking him to an argument that TSE has Insane Cop cleared you in the thread

What? How am I doing this?

Because you are bringing him up and shading him when he's not even a party to the argument as though it discredit's Klick's read?

[Klick]

Starting from TSE has never demonstrated any form of understanding of mafia (at least as far as I've seen);
Explain to me why I should care what TSE's read on me is if I'm town and he's town?
Why Auro should care what TSE's read on me is if he's town and TSE is town?

What is your plan to get scum lynched, today or tomorrow?
Because it either involves scum bussing or full town cooperation.

But that's not what I said. I said your push on me, and your criticism of the CSF push, feel weak and reactionary. You've been limping Klick!scum for ages, but you're only going hard now.

I'm not going hard on anything/

I am not pushing anything.

You haven't played with me in a while if you think this is me pushing.

I'm not sure why you took that to be relative to how you usually play.
In this game, you have been throwing my name out as likely scum for ages without going anywhere with it (Aka what I am calling 'limping'). I start pushing CSF, and you start applying pressure, relative to you limping me as scum before that.

But that's not what I said. I said your push on me, and your criticism of the CSF push, feel weak and reactionary. You've been limping Klick!scum for ages, but you're only going hard now.

There's no way this is what you meant initially.

But it's exactly what I said.

How is my "push on you reactionary" if my read has been constant?
Are you saying I was preparing a scum read on you from the beginning of the game only to push it in the eventuality that you decided to push me?

Yeah, I think you've been sitting on a Klick scumread without doing anything with it, waiting for the prime opportunity to actually make something happen with it.
Tell me this - if you've had me as a scumread since like page 10, then why

haven't

you pushed it yet?

I said CSF is likely town a long time ago.

I remembered you posting a solve of CSF/Suji/me somewhere, though I can't find it right this second.
I also remember you shading her in a recent post.
Apologies for not remembering the time you mentioned her as town - is that one your real read?

[popsofctown]

Starting from TSE has never demonstrated any form of understanding of mafia (at least as far as I've seen);
Explain to me why I should care what TSE's read on me is if I'm town and he's town?
Why Auro should care what TSE's read on me is if he's town and TSE is town?

What is your plan to get scum lynched, today or tomorrow?
Because it either involves scum bussing or full town cooperation.

Falso, this game uses plurality lynching. I think it's pretty possible that becomes relevant.

[Klick]

That only seems relevant in a scenario where four town group together today. I suppose that's viable?
Still, not caring about the reads of someone you think is town makes an already difficult position significantly worse, and I doubt it comes from town

[Klick]

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82282
Basically ML it feels like you've read this article and are trying to emulate your way into looking town by following Thought 3:

3) People who have really out there reads, stick out too much, don't agree with the generally established townblock, and want to do their own thing which people don't largely disagree with get lynched incredibly consistently. They also incredibly consistently flip town.

But then you're also trying to avoid the part where you get lynched for it.

[Miss Lane]

I remembered you posting a solve of CSF/Suji/me somewhere, though I can't find it right this second.
I also remember you shading her in a recent post.
Apologies for not remembering the time you mentioned her as town - is that one your real read?

Everything you've said this game seems ignorant of almost every post I've had up until now.
Even your read of me is only aware of the fact that I mentioned you as possible scum a while ago, and only because I brought it up.

I feel blatantly misrepresented throughout the entirety of this conversation and I have no intention of continuing it at this point because I don't really see it going elsewhere. I don't really wanna start quoting myself at you and I don't have the time or the energy to do so.