Newbie 1992 | Game Over

[Karnage]

Vote Count 1.11

Marashu (2) ~

skitter30, Menalque,

Datisi (1) ~

team rocket queen,

clidd (1) ~

word321,

Not voting (5) ~

Marashu, GeneralWu, Maduisha, clidd, Datisi,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2020-03-27 19:08:54)

V/LA:

• skitter30 - Fridays and Saturdays

[clidd]

Im back.

[clidd]

I would like to have more time to develop my analysis, but the material seems appropriate to make a personal guess in the slot.

I also observed the progression of a collective thought about me, which is comforting to see. Evidently, I have a high death rate on the first and second night, so I believe that increasing suspicion on me is indirectly avoiding the chances of me being killed, so I would like to congratulate the attitude.

Without further ado:

Posts

14

~

20

, TRQ.

Spoiler:

hello friends!

or should i say,

Hi guys im mason

Any reason you are copying Saudade's intro from that game?

skitter was innocent child in that game and mason is the only day 1 confirmed town in this setup and i didn't want maduisha to get bored enough to yolohammer someone slightly later on like in 1987 so i figured i'd say something that might get the game moving a bit.

- After observing from a few angles, I believe that there was a motivation originated before daystart, but not necessarily linked to an alignment.

[NAI]

Posts

22

~

26

, TRQ.

Spoiler:

You did meta research on Maduisha?

I hate day 1 because it always feels super slow, but I'll do my best not to get impatient this time around.

this interested me.

how'd you get to Large Normal 220?

oh! town's play in that game is why i signed up to play. when i first found the site i was reading through a few completed games but i was having trouble finding myself invested. then i found jazz mafia.

Any reason you want to get the game moving (without me needing to read up on other games to try to figure out your play)? We still have 4 people who haven't posted and you're already moving us out of the joke votes.

none other than those already stated.

TRQ, was Mad town or scum in 1987?

maduisha was town and instrumental in town's victory in 1987.

- I feel that post 22 was substantial, as there was no sequence in what was cited as ''interesting'' in post 26, where she totally changes the subject in a short period of time.

[Suggestive]

Posts

60

~

75

, TRQ.

Spoiler:

btw reading other people's games to try and figure out how they usually play is often an ineffective way of solving a game. It's better if you've had firsthand experience with that player (rather than reading a game you never played in), and even then it's still not quite effective compared to other methods.

i think the more information one has access to, the better. i also find reading other games to be a very effective way to learn the game, in general. but i am very new and there probably comes a point of overload.

But then, I'm not really a fan of D1 mason flip anyway, so it might just be a personal thing.

treating me as confirmed feels like an early attempt to get pressure on me if/when i become unconfirmed.

I feel like playing in games is much better than reading them
Because you get to firsthand experience all the stuff.
Whereas in reading a game you haven't played in before, you're generally more prone to bias and misinterpretation.
In addition, meta doesn't work well on people who have vastly different playstyles from game to game.

it is, but one can read a lot more games a week than they can play in. i think it is a good exercise for townplay, at the very least, since while reading you do not have any hidden information and therefore are basically a member of town that cannot post or vote. like the scene at the end of instellar where cooper is banging on the bookshelves only no one notices, more or less.

hmm this is odd

yes, very

- These responses suggest a more relaxed state of mind, but do not add anything to the development of the game.

[NAI]

Post

83

, TRQ.

Spoiler:

trq do u have any reads?

i think marashu was kinda scummy for the way they were viewing my opening because if it was simply a new player thing why would they have an opinion on d1 claims. i liked the way generalwu talked about 1987 but i didn't like the way clidd talked about it. there doesn't seem to be a hard correlation between drawing attention to something that seems innocuous to me as a possible attempt at pocketing in the games i've read, but it seemed scummy here. datisi's style of asking questions in this game seems more about getting townread than gaining information, but i think that's nai.

I disagree; in reading a game, you're able to see the results of the game first.

clicking the spoiler first seems both less enjoyable and less useful of an exercise. if i decide i want to review it with full information based on how the game played out, i then read through it again.

- I believe that the first impressions cited were not sufficiently elucidated, as well as the lack of organization in the way of displaying her reads hindered the transparency of the reasoning process used. She starts talking about Marashu, then changes instantly to GW and mentions a particularity about me, with an unconvincing explanation to support the suspicion presented. The sequence is even worse, as it has an inconsistency:

''

datisi's style of asking questions in this game seems more about getting townread than gaining information, but i think that's nai.

''

- It is not natural to consider that looking only for townread without looking for information is something NAI. Scum players already have all the alignment information in advance, so they just need to ensure townread to stay alive in the game, so what was described above is a characteristic of the scum attitude and should be seen as scum indicative. Her interpretation of this was very unrealistic, and seemed to show signs of insecurity in positioning a specific read on Datisi.

Conclusion:

The inability to show her reads in an organized, explanatory and intuitive way hurt the integrity of the message she tried to convey here, especially due to the conclusion about the observation she obtained on Datisi, which did not seem natural and shows a strange neutrality about the slot . The lack of

''hook''

for further development indicates a disregard in starting an expressive progression on these reads, almost as if they had only been shown to fill space and give a vague notion of what she was thinking at the time.

[Scum indicative]

Posts

104

,

106

,

109

,

113

,

222

,

233

,

237

,

262

~ TRQ.

Spoiler:

i dislike that they've been going on and on about the merits of meta-reading off of old games without really interacting with what else is going on this game much

if i interact with the game more generally going forward would you be likely to view that as happening because you drew my attention to it?

i don't understand what you're trying to say, sorry :/

sorry, i will reword. if from now on you observe me interacting with more of thread, instead of specific posts addressed to me (the conversation with generalwu, you asking me for reads), do you think this would be because you drew my attention to the fact that i wasn't?

i rescind.

not in particular, i guess?
idk this is a weird question in response

i was trying to see the town benefit in telling me if you think i'm mafia, i guess.

I see GW ask people if they think the mason claim is legit, but I want to ask you directly. Is this a meme claim, or are you serious?

i was excited and fangirling.

i kinda agree with this, i feel like he's asking a lot of questions but not like doing anything with them
like he's using them to look busy but they're not actually going anywhere

this ^ is mainly what i meant by this:

datisi's style of asking questions in this game seems more about getting townread than gaining information,

because their early questioning regarding the mason thing was weird and i was thinking of voting them

i think marashu was kinda scummy for the way they were viewing my opening because if it was simply a new player thing why would they have an opinion on d1 claims.

a lot of our reads seem similar to me, but my conversation with generalwu was largely non-productive so i get why it was scummy.

one thing i was interested in hearing about *didn't* get mentioned but the whole thing gets kinda ruined if i explicitly prod about it so

what's the benefit of saying this? to make us think, "hm, i wonder what it is, let me reread the thread looking for exactly this. oh i think i found something, but i better not draw attention to it." because that does not seem very towny to me.

i mentioned it because it was on my mind and i was also curious to other's reactions to my comment as well
do you think mentioning that makes me outright scummy or?

maybe not outright scummy but i do not understand the benefit, still. upon reviewing the thread looking for something that didn't get mentioned, it did not feel like i was on a quest given to me by a townsperson. thus, my reaction.

VOTE: marashu

- Considering the progression from post

104

to

262

, there are interactions with three different players, but at no moment does she send a message to Marashu who, in theory, was her voting preference at that time. That is, there is an incoherence of her not trying to resolve the doubts about the slot and automatically voting just to have a vote on someone, mainly due to the fact that in post

262

we had already left the RVS, therefore, she should have build a context to have some meaning in her vote. If it was for the purpose of pressure, for example, it should have been accompanied by questions to help her determine whether the reads in the slot were correct or not.

why are you voting marashu

no benefit to not having my vote on someone

were you voting randomly though
or was it a legitimate vote

i did not choose marashu at random

- First she induces the interpretation that the vote was sporadic, that is, random. Then she goes back and contradicts the content of the previous post, without explaining what happened. The lack of transparency makes it difficult to understand her line of reasoning, giving the impression of an unconscious bipolarity.

Conclusion:

Difficulty in focusing and lack of cohesion in the development of reads creates an atmosphere of uncertainty and insecurity, although it is not possible to say with one hundred percent certainty whether these traits are totally unintentional. However, the oscillation of consistency in the progression of reads seems too absurd to have been premeditated, which leads me to imagine more than one scenario to explain this behavior.

[Suggestive]

Posts

320

~

321

, TRQ.

Spoiler:

General consensus is that Marashu is scummy because he took your meme claim as serious right away. Is your reason the same one, and that's why you didn't mention it? Or is it a different one?

it wasn't simply that they took it seriously, but also the way they asked questions about it. i was the first person in thread to give those reads of marashu:

treating me as confirmed feels like an early attempt to get pressure on me if/when i become unconfirmed.

i think marashu was kinda scummy for the way they were viewing my opening because if it was simply a new player thing why would they have an opinion on d1 claims.

so it is odd to me that two of you then asked me for reasoning, as if i had never given any. at the time i voted for marashu, i was also 90% sure datisi was scum. datisi's second post this game was:

First post not a vote or a gif

Scumfirmed

VOTE: Marashu

i extended the logic that scum are more likely to call themselves scum to apply to partners as well, since the first post this game that was not a vote or a gif was not made by marashu, but was in fact the very first post of the game, also made by datisi:

Boop

from reading his completed games, it becomes apparent that datisi would potentially flex like this.

after the two experienced players that are not datisi said datisi was scummy, i went back to his posts with my finest toothed comb, and found this (seemingly addressed to no one in particular):

yeah i'm not seeing it chief

will get back to this once the sun is up

goodnight friends

which sent my mind racing. not seeing it... hmm... once the sun is up could mean real world tomorrow but could also mean in game tomorrow...

and it followed a very particular pattern, one which i had used earlier in the game:

hello friends!

or should i say,

Hi guys im mason

a pattern not completely uncommon to datisi (see the marashu vote above), but also 12 hours after that post:

hello friend

are you scum

please be honest

hm. friend again. let's see how common it is for him to refer to someone this way. (you have to enter 'friend' into the text box, i don't know how to link the completed search)

https://forum.mafiascum.net/search.php? ... r_id=32624

18 matches in 7269 posts, many of which of which are having to do with masons and others are about a breadcrumbing claims... let's look into that further.

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=82195

so he has a pattern of doing this. and it would make sense for him to have done so in this game because a newbie referring to a specific role early is probably that role. however,

i'm not a mason so datisi is probably scum here.

i've downgraded the severity of my scumread slightly since i have not yet been able to find a more complex solve to the potential breadcrumbing, if there is one.

tldr; i'm not a mason so datisi is probably scum here.

VOTE: datisi

- I had difficulty understanding this process completely, but after a lot of patience in checking the data presented, I managed to get slightly closer to the logic used for structuring her read. However, it still seemed very circumstantial and little close to the reality we are in. There are inconsistencies that I prefer not to comment on in order to avoid offenses, so I will consider the effort applied here.

[Suggestive]

Post

334

, TRQ.

Spoiler:

i don't follow the logic of like any of that, sorry

i may be moonbrained. okay, i know i'm moonbrained, but i may be right here.

Like if you were 90% on me being scum when you voted for marashu they why tf did you vote for marashu
None of this makes any sense
What

because marashu seemed like your most likely partner to me at the time, there was already some pressure on you, and i was searching your posts for a more complex solve before posting. unable to find one quickly, i thought i would outsource to the thread/make my reads known.

Like, in a hypothetical scenario in which you were claiming masons with Datisi and using this as a way to tell us it was like that all along, I would be pretty confused.

the hypothetical situation it would be useful to datisi in would be if he thought i was a mason and thus killed me in the night and then i flipped mason and then he wanted to counterclaim the remaining mason. it's a pretty narrow situation so i doubt he'd have felt the need to make a super strong breadcrumb but him wanting to have something seems pretty likely.

- She had a significantly stronger scumread, but voted for another player, who she believed to be the partner.



- This is absolutely illogical, but it may be due to a special interpretation of the facts. It doesn't seem premeditated.

[Suggestive]

442

~

466

, TRQ.

Spoiler:

So, it would be logical to assume that you would remain in the town line using it, to be more successful when rescuing that meta to win townread in other games.

sacrificing the likelihood of winning any given game to increase your winrate in future games is definitely not okay.

Why not ? I've seen some players doing this, and consistently avoiding trust-tell.

The margins: 2/9 chances to be scum and 7/9 chances to be town weigh more for the benefit of strengthening the town meta.

Statistically, the tendency is that you will play more games as town than scum. So improving your chances of winning as a town should significantly improve your overall winratio.

this is extremely shitty to your mafia partners if you roll scum and can definitely be viewed as not playing to your win condition.

- Hum, these two posts were a final test for the theory I was putting together to explain the process by which she was architecting her impressions and reads. She answers two posts that imply similar ideas, but with a degree of gentleness that spreads from post

442

to

466

, intensifying an unconscious opinion on the subject. The temporal distance between the two posts also suggests some reflection, which does not correspond to the cautious way that Newbie!Scum plays.

[Town Indicative]

After making some mental inferences about the behavior of TRQ, I noticed that a good part of the logic used is presented in a vandalized way, with little organization and transparency in elucidating the reasons. The increase in the number of inquiries in many directions makes explicit the lack of self-preservation, as well as the inability to detect whether others are understanding her denotations or not. There are many inconsistencies in the reasoning process, which seem to skip steps and change angles very early, without the expressive development of a concrete conclusion. Communication with many players in parallel indicates a natural distance, that is, there is an implication of the absence of a private chat with them, with the exception of Menalque, who was mentioned only 3 times in her ISO. The lack of focus is also an element that intensifies the volatile content of the approaches she takes with each post that, although they seek in a well-intentioned way to contribute to the resolution of the game, they have a reverse effect of damaging her social image in the face of opinions so absurd and inaccurate.

Conclusion:

TRQ presents peculiar characteristics of sophistry, but does not share the bias that this type of event suggests. Therefore, it is better classified in the spectrum of paralogism, which, although similar in principle, differs in the user's intention. With that in mind, I am inclined to think that she can only be

scum

if Menalque is, due to the lack of significant interaction between these two, observed in ISO. Otherwise she is

town

.

[Datisi]

if this is mena/trq, and mena made that case on me and told trq to post it so he can townread her

we will be having a word post-game

i really don't think it is, but.

[clidd]

With that said, I have doubts about GeneralWu, Marashu, Menalque and Skitter.

Interestingly, I believe that there are 2

scums

among these players,

considering

that Datisi is not mimicking his behavior in our last game in common.

[Maduisha]

Hi, Clidd! Thank you for your extensive read on her. I want to bring attention to two things you said there.

- First she induces the interpretation that the vote was sporadic, that is, random. Then she goes back and contradicts the content of the previous post, without explaining what happened. The lack of transparency makes it difficult to understand her line of reasoning, giving the impression of an unconscious bipolarity.

First being this one. While I don't disagree with your read about the difficulty in focusing and lack of apparent cohesion, I want to point out that the nature of the way she posts makes the big picture harder to see (short messages, things she wants to tie being far apart in different messages of the thread and she doesn't call back to her own messages all the time to tell us what is she talking about), that doesn't mean she's doing things at random. Maybe her wording in this message gave the impression that she was voting Marashu to just have her vote on someone, but I think what she tried to say is "I had FoS on Marashu, and there's no benefit from me not directly placing the vote for pressure." It's a matter of wording, but I think it changes the meaning of that message and eliminates this incoherence.

The second thing being that you said TRQ can only be scum if Menalque is scum. Are there any other reasons why you think that, aside from what you just said? Also, you said there's lack of interaction between them, but I wonder about that. You yourself said she mentioned Menalque directly three times, and I do recall Menalque saying he townreads her at least twice. They haven't conversed per se, but I wouldn't say they've been avoiding each other. I agree that I would like to see more interaction between the two, though.

[clidd]

The impression that there is a scum between Menalque and Skitter is getting stronger and stronger by PoE.

[Datisi]

considering that Datisi is not mimicking his behavior in our last game in common.

this is the conspiracy game right? are you talking about round 1 or round 2 here?

[clidd]

Hi, Clidd! Thank you for your extensive read on her. I want to bring attention to two things you said there.

- First she induces the interpretation that the vote was sporadic, that is, random. Then she goes back and contradicts the content of the previous post, without explaining what happened. The lack of transparency makes it difficult to understand her line of reasoning, giving the impression of an unconscious bipolarity.

First being this one. While I don't disagree with your read about the difficulty in focusing and lack of apparent cohesion, I want to point out that the nature of the way she posts makes the big picture harder to see (short messages, things she wants to tie being far apart in different messages of the thread and she doesn't call back to her own messages all the time to tell us what is she talking about), that doesn't mean she's doing things at random. Maybe her wording in this message gave the impression that she was voting Marashu to just have her vote on someone, but I think what she tried to say is "I had FoS on Marashu, and there's no benefit from me not directly placing the vote for pressure." It's a matter of wording, but I think it changes the meaning of that message and eliminates this incoherence.

The second thing being that you said TRQ can only be scum if Menalque is scum. Are there any other reasons why you think that, aside from what you just said? Also, you said there's lack of interaction between them, but I wonder about that. You yourself said she mentioned Menalque directly three times, and I do recall Menalque saying he townreads her at least twice. They haven't conversed per se, but I wouldn't say they've been avoiding each other. I agree that I would like to see more interaction between the two, though.

1. Ok.

2. The lack of interaction between the two is the only reason. I don't see the scenario Scum!TRQ wasting time and straining her cognitive ability to question her partner, because theoretically, they already have a private chat to discuss.

[clidd]

considering that Datisi is not mimicking his behavior in our last game in common.

this is the conspiracy game right? are you talking about round 1 or round 2 here?

Yes, round 2. I believe I was able to identify many patterns of your towny tone in that game.

[Datisi]

so, you've noticed my towny tone in round 2 (where i was town), and i'm *not* mimicking them here, so i'm town?

[Maduisha]

With that said, I have doubts about GeneralWu, Marashu, Menalque and Skitter.

Interestingly, I believe that there are 2

scums

among these players,

considering

that Datisi is not mimicking his behavior in our last game in common.

Menalque talks a lot, so I have a hard time thinking he's scum. He'd slip once or twice with the amount of message and message speed he has. If he is scum, I'd be impressed. There's lack of premeditation in his behavior, is what I'm seeing. I would like to know what you think about Skitter, because so far I don't know how to read her. Are your doubts about Marashu the same as everyone else's? (That he took the mason claim seriously).

About GeneralWu, I said I had a TL on him, but I'm starting to think he's more of a null slot, because he has been making sort of anchor posts saying he'll read later at least twice, ignored posts addressed at him, but still took the time to reply at comments about Marashu that were on the same page, so I wonder. He's posting a bit too much for someone that has to catch up still, yet he does it in small bursts and then disappears again. This is not his meta from last game entirely, because he poured effort into deceiving us last time, and now he's acting blatant enough to even directly ask for summaries. I thought that was scummy, but then I read Marashu say that maybe it's so blatantly scummy that it can only come from town, and I feel a bit wifom about it. What do you think about GWu?

[clidd]

so, you've noticed my towny tone in round 2 (where i was town), and i'm *not* mimicking them here, so i'm town?

Not only that, I believe that Scum!Datisi would have played paranoia when quoting about Scum!Clidd in that match to reduce my credibility.

Since you didn't do that, I can conclude two things: 1-alternative strategy, 2- you are town.

Item 1 has the problem that you went back on your vote in TRQ, when it would be more beneficial to establish a tunnel on her, which would be justified by the sporadic behavior that she has been presenting.

So item 2 is more likely to be true.

[Datisi]

Menalque talks a lot, so I have a hard time thinking he's scum. He'd slip once or twice with the amount of message and message speed he has.

that is a very very not good reason to TL him.

[Datisi]

Not only that, I believe that Scum!Datisi would have played paranoia when quoting about Scum!Clidd in that match to reduce my credibility.

eh, i'm not sure i would've even been allowed to do that (depending on what specific instance you're talking about here) as the second game finished only recently, and i couldn't discuss it while ongoing. you're still on my suspect list if you've noticed.

[Maduisha]

Menalque talks a lot, so I have a hard time thinking he's scum. He'd slip once or twice with the amount of message and message speed he has.

that is a very very not good reason to TL him.

Is it not? He interacts with everyone a good deal, and the way he posts makes me think he isn't planning the questions he asks, or the reactions he'd get. I'd say transparent lack of premeditation is towny.

[Datisi]

meh, if we're talking about the message amount, i can assure you scum!mena is more than capable. I haven't yet mulled over most of his interactions with other slots, though.

[Maduisha]

If he is capable, then he's a scary player, indeed. But I think the fact that he interacts a lot with everyone is also very telling, not just post count. I'm aware that most of his messages are short.

[clidd]

With that said, I have doubts about GeneralWu, Marashu, Menalque and Skitter.

Interestingly, I believe that there are 2

scums

among these players,

considering

that Datisi is not mimicking his behavior in our last game in common.

Menalque talks a lot, so I have a hard time thinking he's scum. He'd slip once or twice with the amount of message and message speed he has. If he is scum, I'd be impressed. There's lack of premeditation in his behavior, is what I'm seeing. I would like to know what you think about Skitter, because so far I don't know how to read her. Are your doubts about Marashu the same as everyone else's? (That he took the mason claim seriously).

About GeneralWu, I said I had a TL on him, but I'm starting to think he's more of a null slot, because he has been making sort of anchor posts saying he'll read later at least twice, ignored posts addressed at him, but still took the time to reply at comments about Marashu that were on the same page, so I wonder. He's posting a bit too much for someone that has to catch up still, yet he does it in small bursts and then disappears again. This is not his meta from last game entirely, because he poured effort into deceiving us last time, and now he's acting blatant enough to even directly ask for summaries. I thought that was scummy, but then I read Marashu say that maybe it's so blatantly scummy that it can only come from town, and I feel a bit wifom about it. What do you think about GWu?

Menalque and Skitter have one thing in common: they have no linguistic vices. That is, their typing pattern is not something that you associate from one game to the other, as with some players who tend to type certain terms and act in a certain way according to the alignment, which makes it difficult to distinguish whether they are in their meta scum or not. In this context, the only way to measure a read on them is through content analysis, which is also hampered by the objective and dividing way in which they organize their posts, making it difficult to identify explicit scumtells. Given these circumstances, I believe that evaluating their slot by PoE significantly reduced this difficulty, since the mathematical factor is more accurate in that sense.

Generalwu is acting in a very strange way, different from the other game. What I believe is a contradiction to her meta scum, because if she is able to articulate more freely as a scum, she must also be able to loosen up more as town, because she has, in theory, nothing to hide. In particular, she's in the unsure pool now because of some interactions with me, which did not seem to be genuine questions. She can be better evaluated as the day progresses.

[clidd]

Not only that, I believe that Scum!Datisi would have played paranoia when quoting about Scum!Clidd in that match to reduce my credibility.

eh, i'm not sure i would've even been allowed to do that (depending on what specific instance you're talking about here) as the second game finished only recently, and i couldn't discuss it while ongoing. you're still on my suspect list if you've noticed.

Hum, I didn't expect that answer. I'll probably have to check on you again.

[Datisi]

Huh, what did you expect?

[Maduisha]

Interesting. So, I can't trust Menalque just on transparency from what you two have told me, since he can fake that as well. That makes me feel a bit uneasy, because I was reading him as town already. The same thing applying to Skitt is also troublesome, but I didn't have a strong feeling about her, anyway. She makes interesting questions, but aside from her interaction with Melanque/Datisi early on, I feel a bit at a loss on what to look at (and it's not because of lack of post volume, of course).

[clidd]

Huh, what did you expect?

I expected a suggestive inclination to change opinion or flexibility to my slot.

[Datisi]

Sorry, I don't understand what you mean.

[Maduisha]

As for GWu acting strange, I feel the same. I was pretty confident with the towny tone I was feeling from him on the first pages because it felt like a different playstyle from scum!GWu, but now he's doing this weird thing of appearing saying he has not read the thread more than once, but still interacts with the latest posts to defend Marashu, while ignoring the talk about him that was happening just the page prior. I feel contradictory things, so I feel he's more of a null slot for the time being. FoS on him because I feel his recent actions are a bit iffy (the anchor posting, mostly), but I don't want to vote him yet. He said he'd have more time on Saturday, so I hope he'll pay us a visit soon.

But it's late where I live, so it's time I disappear.