Mini Normal 2128: Normal Mafia - Game Over!

[TheTrollie]

@Mavs

I see your question - It's a really good one and tbh haven't read into that earlier post. I will take a look at it later when I have more time and get back to u.

In the meantime -

have tried to pay a little attention to Trollie since I voted for them.
they, as they announced in advance, went and voted for madoken

madoka - i like ur last post. thats the first post I've liked from ur slot the whole game actually.

What are your reads? Are you ready to place a vote?

Hi Titus!

later on this post, which feels like inching towards moving vote away.
There is less flipping their votes around sinc ei posted about them, but I don't really want to move my vote anywhere

I keep going back and forth on gerain, but I really don't love this post. feels so over defensive. There's no reason he has to say anything about me/his vote right now. idk - curious what other people think but I can SO easily see this as scum. MT agrees that his push on me isnt good & iDanny starts to see my case on Skell...gerain feels like his wagon of choice is losing steam....he posts this. i guess i mostly think thats possible bc its a bad post. doesnt make sense "I hate flip floppers trollie is a flip flopper so vote trollie" ...[3 pages later]..."trollie stopped flip flopping but idk i still dont know where i'd move my vote"

Anyone else feel like its odd for gerain to feel the need to justify still voting me even though I havent switched my vote recently?

[Titus]

Desperately frustrated by the number of people that think it's ok to answer on behalf of anyone else, much less Danyboy and Expressojet. Almost certainly one should be scum. If it's a fact question sure, but such defenses get in the way of reading shots.

He pretty much answered first in 469. That post makes it fairly clear to me he doesn't have any new townread on Dany.

I considered not making the comment, but I think asking "Why is Dany town?" to someone who hasn't indicated he townreads Dany, then again indicates he doesn't intend to defend Dany is at best unuseful and at worst some kind of loaded question setup

That being said if this is some kind of scumhunting technique I apologize if I hindered it

A person who is lurking and has no reason to be considered town should be the top of the lynch pool not the bottom barring a heavy scumread which I don't see ExpressoJet or Danyboy saying someone else is a heavy better lynch.

If someone is active and a weaker scumread, keeping them alive over a lurker with a weaker scumread serves two purposes. First, the active slot will actually produce content allowing the read to be confirmed or denied. The second is that an active scumfuck will lead you to their partners if you're good enough to listen to what people

want

as opposed to the literal text of their words. A lurker will just continue to lurk.

This is also why I am pressuring the ExpressoJet/Danyboy connection theory I have and wanting to know just WHY ExpressoJet thinks Danyboy is a bad lynch as opposed to waffling bullshit of it could be town or scum. I want to pressure him to take a stand on it.

Third, based on what I've seen since I subbed in, I'm not sure a lurker definition is fair to apply to Danyboy, unless applying the definition of active lurking (lots of posts that say nothing).

[TheTrollie]

@Trollie: How do you feel about post 116? I’ve been reading Skellen’s entrance into the game over and over both framed as she’s scum and then as town. Post 116 seems to suspect Allomancer who she does eventually vote. Post 119 agrees with Allomancer’s read. Post 121 is the defense of Allomancer and post 122 is the Allomancer vote. This seems to flip flop quite a bit on Allomancer. None of her posts have consistency on Allomancer. You’ve pointed out the inconsistencies in posts 121 and 122. But this was a theme earlier with less conviction. She seems to be fixated on Allomancer leading to a wide range of thinking he’s town then thinking he’s scum. I can see town skellen doing this whereas scum Skellen would just be lazy and make a case for a bob vote. The Unvote of allomancer as the first post she makes after you throw suspicion on her and that whole post in general has a weird feel to it. Thoughts? You’ve got my vote, but I don’t wanna let iDanyboy bully me into a vote, so can’t do it in this post

yeah so - this fits into my interpretation of skells entrance to the game - goes through poking holes where she can - including in my "faked townread" post that has gotten so much attention.

Then she gets down to placing a vote, and votes allo without realizing that the scumread on allo is inconsistent with that post against me.

As a matter of fact mavs, I think this is pretty damning. 119 shows that the scum-allo read was very early on in her reading of the game. It's the first post of content she gives us. So again, I just don't buy that town-skell asks me to defend the idea that scum-allo can fake townie posts. If she can't get fully behind that claim, she also can't scum-read skell.

[Bambi Jay]

So who we voting, Titus?

[TheTrollie]

If someone is active and a weaker scumread, keeping them alive over a lurker with a weaker scumread serves two purposes. First, the active slot will actually produce content allowing the read to be confirmed or denied. The second is that an active scumfuck will lead you to their partners if you're good enough to listen to what people want as opposed to the literal text of their words. A lurker will just continue to lurk.

I agree with this.

I'd vote Bambi actually for this alone - I like her but like, just going out there and saying "eh ill wait till day 2 to do anything" is p anti-town.

p-edit: speak of the devil

[Allomancer]

@Trollie: How do you feel about post 116? I’ve been reading Skellen’s entrance into the game over and over both framed as she’s scum and then as town. Post 116 seems to suspect Allomancer who she does eventually vote. Post 119 agrees with Allomancer’s read. Post 121 is the defense of Allomancer and post 122 is the Allomancer vote. This seems to flip flop quite a bit on Allomancer. None of her posts have consistency on Allomancer. You’ve pointed out the inconsistencies in posts 121 and 122. But this was a theme earlier with less conviction. She seems to be fixated on Allomancer leading to a wide range of thinking he’s town then thinking he’s scum. I can see town skellen doing this whereas scum Skellen would just be lazy and make a case for a bob vote. The Unvote of allomancer as the first post she makes after you throw suspicion on her and that whole post in general has a weird feel to it. Thoughts? You’ve got my vote, but I don’t wanna let iDanyboy bully me into a vote, so can’t do it in this post

yeah so - this fits into my interpretation of skells entrance to the game - goes through poking holes where she can - including in my "faked townread" post that has gotten so much attention.

Then she gets down to placing a vote, and votes allo without realizing that the scumread on allo is inconsistent with that post against me.

As a matter of fact mavs, I think this is pretty damning. 119 shows that the scum-allo read was very early on in her reading of the game. It's the first post of content she gives us. So again, I just don't buy that town-skell asks me to defend the idea that scum-allo can fake townie posts. If she can't get fully behind that claim, she also can't scum-read skell.

I think you can agree with someone's read but disagree with their reasons for having that read.

[SirCakez]

Votecount 1.11

Espressojet (2) - Espressojet, iDanyboy
Madoka (2) - TheTrollie, Cat Scratch Fever
iDanyboy (2) - BBmolla, Titus
TheTrollie (1) - geraintm
mavsfan41 (1) - Allomancer

Not voting (5) - Bambi Jay, bob3141, Madoka, mavsfan41, Morning Tweet

(expired on 2020-04-06 10:34:00) remain until day end

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to reach a majority.

[TheTrollie]

@Trollie: How do you feel about post 116? I’ve been reading Skellen’s entrance into the game over and over both framed as she’s scum and then as town. Post 116 seems to suspect Allomancer who she does eventually vote. Post 119 agrees with Allomancer’s read. Post 121 is the defense of Allomancer and post 122 is the Allomancer vote. This seems to flip flop quite a bit on Allomancer. None of her posts have consistency on Allomancer. You’ve pointed out the inconsistencies in posts 121 and 122. But this was a theme earlier with less conviction. She seems to be fixated on Allomancer leading to a wide range of thinking he’s town then thinking he’s scum. I can see town skellen doing this whereas scum Skellen would just be lazy and make a case for a bob vote. The Unvote of allomancer as the first post she makes after you throw suspicion on her and that whole post in general has a weird feel to it. Thoughts? You’ve got my vote, but I don’t wanna let iDanyboy bully me into a vote, so can’t do it in this post

yeah so - this fits into my interpretation of skells entrance to the game - goes through poking holes where she can - including in my "faked townread" post that has gotten so much attention.

Then she gets down to placing a vote, and votes allo without realizing that the scumread on allo is inconsistent with that post against me.

As a matter of fact mavs, I think this is pretty damning. 119 shows that the scum-allo read was very early on in her reading of the game. It's the first post of content she gives us. So again, I just don't buy that town-skell asks me to defend the idea that scum-allo can fake townie posts. If she can't get fully behind that claim, she also can't scum-read skell.

I think you can agree with someone's read but disagree with their reasons for having that read.

pls read my ISO. as I've explained half a dozen times at this point - my case has nothing to do with skell's ability to question my scumread on allo while also scumreading allo. Read my ISO. look for the most recent one with idanny and the TLDR - i can't go through this again but its just not what I've ever said.

[mavsfan41]

Trollie, you’ve been pretty consistent in your read of Skellen and really do feel like you’re tying to figure the game out. I’ll vote Skellen.

Vote: Madoka

[TheTrollie]

fuck it - I did it anyway

@Allo

Spoiler: On why Trollie's case on Madoka =/= "Skell couldnt scumread allo and ask trollie for reasons he is scumreading allo"

On first glance I got a good impression on Para and Dany. I liked Para's "wall" even although I don't agree with most of it, but I think I get where he is coming from.

I think I like Allo the least so far. He comes a bit off to me, like he is walking a thin line between everything. He hasn't really tried to sort Para since he voted him and I feel he takes stances just to dismiss them quickly like change from mavs to Para or reading Dany/MT as TvT just to agree with bob's suspicion against MT (at least that's how it came across to me) like as if he doesn't really believe in them.

VOTE: Allomancer

I don't like this at all. Post 121 requires that Skellen has some level of resistance to my conclusion that Allo is scum. If she thinks Allo is scum then she also thinks the potential towntells are either not towntells or are fabricated. I don't see her posting 121 and then joining me in 122.

VOTE: Skellen

I'm not sure i love your summary of what the case is - The case is that in order for her to criticize me for feeling that Allo's potential towntells were fabricated, she would have to read allo as town. If she read allo ask scum even slighly, she would naturally also get that I thought Allo's posts were scummy and that those potential towntells were BS. But then she goes along and votes Allo in her next post. It stinks of scum going through and reading trying to poke holes and "scumfind" where she can because her two inqusitions don't match up to a single narrative of what her take on the game was as she read - she either thinks I'm stretching to make a case that Allo is scum or she agrees that allo reads scum

The response that skellen can read allo as scum but still want to grill me on my read isn't responsive to my argument.

My case is that her entrance to the game reads as scum coming in and finding holes to poke in various places down the line without all of the reads she makes fitting into a cohesive, town-motivated view. I say i think allos towntells are easy to fake, and she says just because they are easy to fake doesnt mean that they are, and rhen presses me on it. In the very next post she votes allo bc she thinks allo is scummy. Those dont line up - if she scum reads allo then how would she even think to ask me how i could view allows potential tells as fabricated - she supposedly agrees he could be scum, so must therefore agree that any town posts are fabricated. It just reeks of someone who is faking a position instead of tracking and actually making reads.

I don't think that it's that scummy, I actually agree with Skellen's questioning of Trollie.

I don't think I'm making my case clear - it has nothing to do with the fact that she pushed me on my reads.

The case is that for Skellen to say "what makes you think so that scumAllo is faking his towntells here?" has only 1 good response - that Allo is scum. By definition, if you think someone is faking townie posts it is because you think they are scum. You cannot fake a town post as town.

I just don't see a town player who reads Allo as scum as also pressing the only other person voting Allo on why I thought Allo's townieness was fake. I thought it was fake cuz i read him as scum. Skell also MUST HAVE THOUGHT they were fake because she was claiming to read him as scum.

Trollie, I think your case on Skellen is disingenuous. It's apparent that her reasons for finding Allo suspicious in 122 were different than the reasons she questioned in 121.

The case is that for Skellen to say "what makes you think so that scumAllo is faking his towntells here?"

has only 1 good response - that Allo is scum

. By definition, if you think someone is faking townie posts it is because you think they are scum.

This is incorrect. To answer that you believe the towntells are fake because he is scum is circular reasoning, and not what she was looking for. She wanted you to explain what

about his posts

gave you the impression that they were fake.

I'm apparently doing a really bad job at explaining the case against Skellen - but for the like 3rd time -

this is a strawman.

I never questioned Skellen's case against Allo - What was scummy about skellen was that there is only one reason to believe that someone is faking townie posts, and that reason is that the person is scum. Town don't "fake" town posts. So what was scummy of skellen's post was that if she was reading allo as scum (and according to her vote, she was), then it makes no sense to ask me why I thought the towntells were faked. If you were reading allo as scum, YOU ALSO HAD TO READ THE TOWNIE POSTS AS FAKED - BY DEFINITION.

U say that is circular reasoning - it isnt. Town don't fake town posts. They can't. So if I thought Allo was faking townie posts, it is BECAUSE I was scum-reading him. And then when another player goes "oh look at that allo is so town bc in post #whatever he said "WHATEVER" and bro only town would say that" - OBVIOUSLY, anyone SCUMREADING allo would say "no way - "WHATEVER" is such a fake townie post"

***THIS IS THE IMPORTANT PART:

If Skell didn't also think "nah man, "WHATEVER" isn't really a towntell that could be someone tryharding to be town," THEN, Skell PROBABLY WASN'T ACTUALLY SCUMREADING ALLO because IN ORDER TO SCUMREAD someone, you have to also believe that anyone townreading them is incorrect, and that those "townie" posts are just feigned attempts.

***

I stand by this argument - it actually makes more and more sense every time I make it (despite me not being able to properly explain it apparently). And tbh I don't think Madoka does a great job convincing me or defending the town-ness of that slot so I am gonna go back and

VOTE: Madoka

I stand by this argument - it actually makes more and more sense every time I make it (despite me not being able to properly explain it apparently).

I agree with Madoka here.

What happened was you voted Allo because it's town tell's are easily fabricated. Skellen ask's you how you know they are fabricated and agrees that it's scummy but for a different reason than you.
Let's say Allo's flips scums and Skellen voted it because of X. Then she reads your reasoning for voting it as Y, and Y is bad reasoning than it is likely you two were bussing. This is what I got from here post, and I agree with it.

I get this. But the thing is - I wasn't voting allo

because

I thought he was faking towntells. That is not only not consistent with what I said - it is impossible. You cannot believe someone is faking townie posts without scumreading them.

I voted allo because I thought he was scum, and then when BB (or someone can't remember) said "allo is town bc he's got all these townie posts," my response was to say that the posts he felt were "town-Allo" weren't the type of townie posts that struck me as especially hard for scum-Allo to fake.

So then when Skell comes on and plays catchup - my case is that she - being scum, saw the strawman argument to vote me that iDannyboy is positing here. Which is fine - that isn't inherently scum motivated. BUT, if Skell was town who truly was reading Allo as scum (as she claimed), I don't buy that she would have thought to make the argument you are making here iDanny. Because if Skell was town with a legit scumread on Allo, then when she got to my post that says "yeah Allo has some townie looking posts but they don't strike me as especially hard to fake," TOWN-Skell would have to have AGREED with that completely. Because if she was scumreading allo, then she has to also agree that any townie looking posts are fabricated from scum-allo. The reason I think that slot is scum is becuase scum-Skell, with a fake-scumread on Allo would know Allo is town, and then pounce on my post saying "What makes you think Allo is faking"

I really think that only Scum-Skell could have interpreted my post the same way you are, iDanny. I don't buy that town-skell would make that same misinterpretation if she was scumreading Allo.

I really think that only Scum-Skell could have interpreted my post the same way you are, iDanny. I don't buy that town-skell would make that same misinterpretation if she was scumreading Allo.

Why couldn't the post come from town Skell, when you know I see it the same way but you don't think I'm scum for it.

Because you werent scum-reading allo.

I really think that only Scum-Skell could have interpreted my post the same way you are, iDanny. I don't buy that town-skell would make that same misinterpretation if she was scumreading Allo.

Why couldn't the post come from town Skell, when you know I see it the same way but you don't think I'm scum for it.

Because you werent scum-reading allo.

Because if Skell was town with a legit scumread on Allo, then when she got to my post that says "yeah Allo has some townie looking posts but they don't strike me as especially hard to fake," TOWN-Skell would have to have AGREED with that completely. Because if she was scumreading allo, then she has to also agree that any townie looking posts are fabricated from scum-allo. The reason I think that slot is scum is becuase scum-Skell, with a fake-scumread on Allo would know Allo is town, and then pounce on my post saying "What makes you think Allo is faking"

I feel like we're going in circles, but this is the part that doesn't make sense with me, she can agree with you that the town tells are fake but asking why you feel he is scummy is to find out if you have a valid reasoning or your making it up because you already know the alignments.

Totally. Everything you said is true. But it's a strawman - the way you describe her actions is incorrect. She wasn't "finding out if I had valid reasoning" for "why I feel he is scummy" and she didn't "agree that the town tells are fake."

She specifically picked out my response to BB where I argued against his claim that allo was obvs-town, and seems to indicate that she

does not

or at least has questions as to whether the allo posts are authentically town or not:

Allo is town homeboys

I agree he has some townie posts but i think all of his towntells are easily fabricated.

Just because they are easily fabricated doesn't necessarily mean they are. Since you are voting him I assume you think they are fabricated, so what makes you think so that scum!Allo is faking his towntells here?

If the above post was more like the situation you articulated above, I wouldn't have had a problem with it. The part that makes it scummy is that it didn't go down as you described it. I'm not making a case in 106 for scum-allo, I'm defending my vote by saying that allo having townie looking posts is not inconsistent with my read on him as scum, because they could just as easily have been scum faking town.

tl;dr

106 says:

"It is possible to believe that scum-Allo would be making the same posts that you all are reading as town."

To question the legitimacy of that take is inconsistent with a player who is, in their next post, going to vote allo. If you are going to vote allo, you also MUST agree with 106, and Skell's 121 shows that she's not fully on board.

[Espressojet]

I never said we shouldn't lynch iDany, just that the reason was bad

[mavsfan41]

@Trollie: I forget who (I think it was Morning Tweet) asked you how to pronounce your name. And you said Trolley. Is your signature “scum, scum, scum went the Trollie” a reference to The Trolley Song from Meet Me in St. Louis? I think I got it.

[Madoka]

Trollie, you’ve been pretty consistent in your read of Skellen and really do feel like you’re tying to figure the game out. I’ll vote Skellen.

Vote: Madoka

Can you point out where in my case against Trollie's case you disagree?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I might as well just reread the game at this point.

Happy Friday!

[Bambi Jay]

Welp Elsa's 50p large is cancelled and she isn't online as much, so now I get to post more! Ain't that fun.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Welp Elsa's 50p large is cancelled and she isn't online as much, so now I get to post more! Ain't that fun.

me irl

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I suppose I'll make a readslist.

For now: VOTE: Bob

Allomancer's changed my mind.

noting this post, wonder if it will be indicative of future voting from paragon.

What do you mean by this?

I like to note when there are people who switch their votes because someone else has persuaded them to do so. I find it can help spot people placing votes that end up being scummy.

What did you think of mavsfan's progression on Madoka?

[Cat Scratch Fever]

Madoka what made you townread Skellen's ISO before you replaced in?

[Madoka]

Madoka what made you townread Skellen's ISO before you replaced in?

It was more that I thought she had a greater chance of being town than rand% based on her catchup, her newbie status, and quick comparison to her mini normal 2111 iso. Scum are more likely to be hypersensitive to potential inconsistencies as they want to maintain a consistent narrative. Town are more reckless/stream of consciousy without really caring about their presentation. Her questioning trolley's Allo read in 121 then voting Allo in 122 indicated that she was playing stream of consciousy and not to make friends. An alternative example of how scum!skellen might act in this case is either

defend

Allo or

buddy

Trolley. But the fact that she questioned both, tells me she was in a scumhunting mindset, not a presentation mindset.

(There was also the possibility that she and Trolley were mates because her question did look like scum might address their partner, but I didn't think this likely based off trolley's side of the interaction)

[Cat Scratch Fever]

I've read mavsfan's ISO and his ISO in Mini 2121, and there's one glaring difference between his play here and there.

He generally seems more fence-sitty and is more likely to appeal to public opinion in this game

. For instance, in 155 he asked whether anyone else found iDany's early game to be overly defensive.

166 is another similarly fence-sitty post where he asked everyone what he thought of iDany. It's important to note that he has yet to vote iDany at this point and instead has his vote on a lurker. Additionally I did not see a pattern of reluctance to vote his scumreads in Mini 2121, regardless of how unsure he was of them.

Being uncertain of one's reads isn't scummy in of itself, but the way he is doing that here reads a lot like testing the waters. The contrast between his play this game and the last towngame of his strengthens that read.

mavsfan's progression onto Madoka also exhibited this same pattern of initial uncertainty only to eventually place a vote on Madoka.

He asks Trollie for thoughts multiple times before voting there (e.g. 429 and 478).

478 - what was the point of the questions in this post? In this very post, he even admits that Trollie already "has his vote," so the questions asked don't feel like genuine sorting. His progression feels pocket-y (of Trollie in particular) and fake.

Mavsfan also doesn't offer a whole lot of original scumhunting on his own. For instance:

326 - he states 1) a townread on bob and 2) that it's unlikely that the bob wagon was all town. He talks about Allomancer and Paragon as good starting points for finding scum on bob’s wagon based on their wagon positions.

333 - asks bob about me being potential scum on bob’s wagon. He has only asked bob what he thinks of the people on his wagon; he doesn't appear to offer any original thought on us at all and hasn't brought up this line of argument again to pressure us afaict.

VOTE: mavsfan

[Cat Scratch Fever]

An alternative example of how scum!skellen might act in this case is either defend Allo or buddy Trolley. But the fact that she questioned both, tells me she was in a scumhunting mindset, not a presentation mindset.

I see. This does make sense

[TheTrollie]

@Trollie: I forget who (I think it was Morning Tweet) asked you how to pronounce your name. And you said Trolley. Is your signature “scum, scum, scum went the Trollie” a reference to The Trolley Song from Meet Me in St. Louis? I think I got it.

Yes. As is my new avatar

[TheTrollie]

I'm gonna go to bed but I'm pretty sure Madoka's explanation here contradicts her analysis of the skell quarell from when they entered the game

[Madoka]

I change my mind on Trollie. I think we should focus on Bambi, Espresso, and Gera.

[Cat Scratch Fever]

What's the contradiction?