Mini 2133: XP Mafia II (Game Over)

[Flight of the Conchords]

I have check with the mod, and he said we are allowed to vote end day without capturing. This is clearly the best mechanical option. No lynch is forced upon us, and until such time that lynch becomes available, we should not be using this anti-town ability. We want all town powers being used.

Ideally today should be short, choose a power, then end day. When lynch becomes available, we should start to discuss.

VOTE: End day

- Bret

[Pink Ball]

I'm aware of Hectic being more serious than I'm used to, but that seems to be because of spring putting him on the spot rather than an alignment thing. It's a new angle for me.

No I don't think it's AI for spring, that's what I meant

[springlullaby]

I have check with the mod, and he said we are allowed to vote end day without capturing. This is clearly the best mechanical option. No lynch is forced upon us, and until such time that lynch becomes available, we should not be using this anti-town ability. We want all town powers being used.

Ideally today should be short, choose a power, then end day. When lynch becomes available, we should start to discuss.

VOTE: End day

- Bret

Have you committed to the quest?

[Farkset]

@PB why is spring not reevaluating his thoughs? He got quite solid feedback from people but instead of doubt he persist even more.
~ker

[Flight of the Conchords]

I share the feeling with NK15 that the quest is dangerous as it allows mafia to clear XP from a town player, so my instinct is to avoid it. Can you convince me it is worthwhile?

- Bret

[springlullaby]

^Day 1 is a no brainer for quest, it is totally protown:
- Low XP pool
- Low accuracy for sabotage

Risk/Reward is win for town.

ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU VOTE ME THE MOST AWESOME LEADER ON EARTH

QUEST PLEDGE LIST DAY 1

Confirmed:

springlullaby
Hectic
Pink Ball
Pine
Raya36
Ame
Fark
momo

Waiting (lame or scum):

mastina
Ginngie
Lady Chloe
Flight of the Conchords
Not Known 15

Leader:

springlullaby

Correct your position if it is reflected incorrectly.
Again, failing to do so in thread shall be considered scummy because it misinforms town's decision to go into quest or not.

[Flight of the Conchords]

Low XP pool on D1 is a fair argument. If it has widespread agreement, then I am open to it. I will talk to Jemaine about it and then give an update.

- Bret

[springlullaby]

Think of it like this

On N1:

Mafia may minus 1 town XP with sabotage.
Town wins a minimum of 1 XP.

Impact on town XP pool = null.

-----

Town gains one item.
Town gains one roleblock (with default accuracy)

Impact on town = null again.

-----

Town gains an investigative device in how Leader affect item, and how item is used.

Net of quest for N1 is gain for town.

Barring mechanics unknown to me.

Situation, and strategy on how to maneuver quest may vary depending on how the game evolve.

[Pink Ball]

@PB why is spring not reevaluating his thoughs? He got quite solid feedback from people but instead of doubt he persist even more.
~ker

That seems about right and consistent with her playstyle and personality

[Hectic]

That said, it was a similar attitude that got me townread until d4 in undertale, but trust me that there are very few players who would be able to pull that. It takes physical and psychological effort, lots of it.

How did you have the mental capacity to pull that kind of thing off? Sheer willpower?

I honestly don't know. I didn't want to do it. It wasn't the best strategy i could possibly go with. It just happened, and i was unable to back off of that, so i had to push it through with all my might.

I am very motivated to win games in general, and being scum gives me even more motivation because i can't blame my own, or my town teammates' ignorance of the game and setup - it falls entirely on my shoulders to not let them down. Which also means i usually get nervous when playing scum, but i still like it more than being town. Being town can be really frustrating at times, and more often than not you can't even test your reads because other people don't listen to you. I want to improve my communication skills, but i often get caught in a fight against my ego and my ego usually wins.

-Farkran

It was really impressive honestly.

I get what you mean there. I think I enjoy town more overall, but only because my desire to win goes up drastically when playing scum which makes it somewhat stressful. Which in a way might mean I enjoy the challenge of playing scum? Not sure.

[springlullaby]

@NK15 is this vote because springlullaby irritated you or do you have an AI read on her?

They are either overconfident and rude town or powerwolfing scum. The second is a real possibility, and that one is higher than default, so yes, I have a scumread on them. A weak one. If we had access to lynch, which we sadly don`t, a lynch would be highly recommended because them being alive is heavily anti-town.
And about questing: Town should not want that sabotage being around at Night 2+ because losing all stored xp is... too bad at that point. I can get behind the reasoning for a day 1/night 1 quest but after that, the potential damage is just too big.

Do I know you, how do you know I'm a powerwolf?

[Hectic]

Bret, why do you think mafia should have strongman available to them in a philosophical game sense? The game should be balanced regardless of what we choose, and there's plenty of other setups which have no strongmen.

[springlullaby]

@FOC does 307 makes sense to you?

[Lady Chloe]

Apologies for the long-winded post, but I must interact with several posts in succession for transparency and sorting-sake:

^
Yes.

You say you misunderstood the mechanics.
I said you were wrong. Aka gearing the town toward bad choices for bad reasons.
Big difference.

I misunderstood the mechanics, and paved an otherwise different strategy.
You misunderstood the mechanics, and changed my perspective of how we should approach.
Ame was openly flexible about her perspective.
Mastina has been accused of "attempting a townslip."
Not Known 15 and Pine have changed votes, albeit for differing reasons under other contexts.

How do these situations yield different conclusions on our alignments - or, if not - how you approach us?

... what?

Your neighborizer choice was poor as well as the reason you displayed in justifying it.

Mastina and Lady Chloe did not such thing.

Are you saying that Mastina and Chloe are town, scum?

I believe you fail to differentiate mechanical choice and alignment. While a sound point on this approach exists, it is lazy.

Furthermore:
-You deem Momo/Hectic are scum.
-You differentiate that Mastina and I are different than Hectic in action, but not in alignment.
-You accuse Hectic as scum in the same sentence of inquiring whether he believes Mastina and I are town.

If Hectic said any read other than null - what would you have concluded?

Actually Hectic and Farkset can be scum together again.

You point the finger to many people, is that to overshadow the fingers pointed at you?

If you want a Leader position, you might want to stop forcing your will onto others.

[Lady Chloe]

They're both pretty close to null. But I like Lady Chloe better based on her recent posts and 282.

Side note: I'm pretty sure I know who you are, Lady Chloe

You may guess to humor me or others, but I do not guarantee any validation to your theories.

-

Lighter note, I like FotC's recent posting off first-glance.

UNVOTE:

I will assess critically later.

[Flight of the Conchords]

@FOC does 307 makes sense to you?

Yes it does, and personally I am convinced - you broke it down mechanically in the way I was looking for, and make it clear the commitment is for D1 only with a plan to review the appeal of questing as the game progresses.
I still would like to talk to Jemaine, but I think we will be joining you.

- Bret

[Farkset]

Apologies for the long-winded post, but I must interact with several posts in succession for transparency and sorting-sake:

^
Yes.

You say you misunderstood the mechanics.
I said you were wrong. Aka gearing the town toward bad choices for bad reasons.
Big difference.

I misunderstood the mechanics, and paved an otherwise different strategy.
You misunderstood the mechanics, and changed my perspective of how we should approach.
Ame was openly flexible about her perspective.
Mastina has been accused of "attempting a townslip."
Not Known 15 and Pine have changed votes, albeit for differing reasons under other contexts.

How do these situations yield different conclusions on our alignments - or, if not - how you approach us?

... what?

Your neighborizer choice was poor as well as the reason you displayed in justifying it.

Mastina and Lady Chloe did not such thing.

Are you saying that Mastina and Chloe are town, scum?

I believe you fail to differentiate mechanical choice and alignment. While a sound point on this approach exists, it is lazy.

Furthermore:
-You deem Momo/Hectic are scum.
-You differentiate that Mastina and I are different than Hectic in action, but not in alignment.
-You accuse Hectic as scum in the same sentence of inquiring whether he believes Mastina and I are town.

If Hectic said any read other than null - what would you have concluded?

Actually Hectic and Farkset can be scum together again.

You point the finger to many people, is that to overshadow the fingers pointed at you?

If you want a Leader position, you might want to stop forcing your will onto others.

Uhm… The bolded doesn't look like a thought line you would have if you are considering springlullaby as potential scum, which you should be based on 282 and this quoted post. I mean, sure, everyone is potential scum, but it looks like you have a scumlean on springlullaby specifically, am i wrong in saying so? If i am, please tell me.

However, if i am correct, why are you even considering her as a leader, instead of saying something along the lines of "no way i will ever accept you as the quest leader"?

Please clarify your position, because as it is it looks like you're either TMIing her town or trying to distance from her and you slipped - however i don't know you and i'd like to hear what your thought process was exactly when writing this post.

-Farkran

[springlullaby]

I misunderstood the mechanics, and paved an otherwise different strategy.
You misunderstood the mechanics, and changed my perspective of how we should approach.
Ame was openly flexible about her perspective.
Mastina has been accused of "attempting a townslip."
Not Known 15 and Pine have changed votes, albeit for differing reasons under other contexts.

How do these situations yield different conclusions on our alignments - or, if not - how you approach us?

Info which may be or not be relevant as the mechanics of the game is unveiled.
This is a bizarre way to ask for a read-list. If that's what is asked of me I may commit later. Is that what you are asking?

I believe you fail to differentiate mechanical choice and alignment. While a sound point on this approach exists, it is lazy.

Furthermore:
-You deem Momo/Hectic are scum.
-You differentiate that Mastina and I are different than Hectic in action, but not in alignment.
-You accuse Hectic as scum in the same sentence of inquiring whether he believes Mastina and I are town.

If Hectic said any read other than null - what would you have concluded?

I did not conclude anything yet, it's more about judging how Hectic react.
Also, I just type whatever goes through my mind at the time.
For the record, I don't like how Hectic keeps chaining himself to a set of players in one sentence.

You point the finger to many people, is that to overshadow the fingers pointed at you?

That's LOADED.

If you want a Leader position, you might want to stop forcing your will onto others.

Do you mean you're giving me the leader position? YAY!

[springlullaby]

@Farkset: STEALER OF THUNDER

[Lady Chloe]

Farkset,

To clarify, I do suspect springlullaby as potential scum. However, the bolded statement was to give her the benefit of the doubt, so I may evaluate how she viewed the statement for a more accurate read of her.

springlullaby,

I will respond to you in full later. To further explain myself, I am not committing to Leader-ing you, nor am I committing to not. It is not a concrete call I make right now, as I'm unsure of whether I'll quest. The list is at 8 people, currently. Even then, my reservations of Questing are only slightly reduced by most or all the players joining.

[springlullaby]

^Your limit was 9 to join. We are at 9 if your join. Even if you need 9+you. FOC has half committed.

Any reason to the change of mind?

[Ame]

I have check with the mod, and he said we are allowed to vote end day without capturing. This is clearly the best mechanical option. No lynch is forced upon us, and until such time that lynch becomes available, we should not be using this anti-town ability. We want all town powers being used.

Ideally today should be short, choose a power, then end day. When lynch becomes available, we should start to discuss.

VOTE: End day

- Bret

This would be very much to our disadvantage. Capturing hurts mafia more than it hurts town, especially in the early Days when everyone is low on XP. The key to this is the fact that we know they must expend XP to preform the Night kill. A D1 captured mafia member who began the game with 1XP would not only be prevented from carrying out the Night kill N1 but N2 as well since they would have lost their original XP and would have been unable to train during the previous Night. So by capturing a mafia, we have a chance of significantly hindering their movement as a whole. Capturing Town, on the other hand, does not significantly set us back (1) because many of the personal roles seem to not require the exhaustion of XP and (2) we have not yet gained any shared roles that do. At worse, we prevent a PR from taking a N1 action and/or set someone back from upgrading for a Night or two.

Furthermore, failing to use this mechanic robs us of information we could use to look back on later. This is, without a doubt, the most hurtful strategy that has been proposed.

[Lady Chloe]

springlullaby,

Nothing other than my original grievances of joining.

I will decide soon. I am quite likely to join.

I'd say I'll feel better the more others join, but with Ame's logic in mind, that feels hypocritical of me.

[Flight of the Conchords]

I have check with the mod, and he said we are allowed to vote end day without capturing. This is clearly the best mechanical option. No lynch is forced upon us, and until such time that lynch becomes available, we should not be using this anti-town ability. We want all town powers being used.

Ideally today should be short, choose a power, then end day. When lynch becomes available, we should start to discuss.

VOTE: End day

- Bret

This would be very much to our disadvantage. Capturing hurts mafia more than it hurts town, especially in the early Days when everyone is low on XP. The key to this is the fact that we know they must expend XP to preform the Night kill. A D1 captured mafia member who began the game with 1XP would not only be prevented from carrying out the Night kill N1 but N2 as well since they would have lost their original XP and would have been unable to train during the previous Night. So by capturing a mafia, we have a chance of significantly hindering their movement as a whole. Capturing Town, on the other hand, does not significantly set us back (1) because many of the personal roles seem to not require the exhaustion of XP and (2) we have not yet gained any shared roles that do. At worse, we prevent a PR from taking a N1 action and/or set someone back from upgrading for a Night or two.

Furthermore, failing to use this mechanic robs us of information we could use to look back on later. This is, without a doubt, the most hurtful strategy that has been proposed.

Incorrect. There are 3 mafia, and a captured mafia is very low reward for town - one of the others can perform the factional kill. Town roles are not afforded this luxury. A captured town role is a lost role for the night. Capturing at this stage of the game is very low reward and high risk. The overwhelming likelihood is that a town player will be captured. The most important thing right now is to ensure town players with powers are using them unimpeded, not having them captured, or forcing them to claim to avoid being captured.

- Bret

[springlullaby]

^Me like.