Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[davesaz]

Sorry my last couple days have been way busier than anticipated.

I had a key that allows me to escape if I am in a game at any time. The key word is had, I gave it to ABR last night because he needed it more than me. Idk if the games with nothing happening were because of that yet because I have not read past like the first page of this Day.

How is it pro-town to reveal this now?

[Morning Tweet]

John Kramer would be a terrible fake claim for Jigsaw. Cause John Kramer IS jigsaw.

Jigsaw's fakeclaim would be an entirely random victim or other side character somewhere in the movies

I already accounted for that.

Like that felt needlessly rude.

my bad, i read it too quickly and misread what you said

[Gamma Emerald]

Just an FYI if we decide we want to lynch ABR today we should instead give him a day to hand off the key and revisit the next day

Plus like BM’s speculation means ABR isn’t likely to be Jigsaw anyway so that’s another reason to not lynch there yet

[Gamma Emerald]

Sorry my last couple days have been way busier than anticipated.

I had a key that allows me to escape if I am in a game at any time. The key word is had, I gave it to ABR last night because he needed it more than me. Idk if the games with nothing happening were because of that yet because I have not read past like the first page of this Day.

How is it pro-town to reveal this now?

Because I knew I was in yesterday’s PoE and my goal was just to get it to someone I trusted, and with the fact two traps failed I assumed it might have been used.

[Battle Mage]

There is 2 scum in my hood

jesus

Jesus may have survived an encounter with Jigsaw, but he definitely didn't become one of his acolytes.

Sorry my last couple days have been way busier than anticipated.

I had a key that allows me to escape if I am in a game at any time. The key word is had, I gave it to ABR last night because he needed it more than me. Idk if the games with nothing happening were because of that yet because I have not read past like the first page of this Day.

Whoops. We won't be getting that back then lol.

Oh god ABR and BM are 1v1ing what the fuck happened

The only thing to say on this, is I am convinced ABR is scum. ABR seems to think I'm town, although did also crumb that I was Jigsaw (not sure why).

(´-ω-｀) neither of them are scum gamma do not worry

Your key hasnt been used, ABR has never been tested

ABR is still scum for all reasons previously stated. It's our purpose to lynch him today.

bm can I lynch Gamma

I'd rather you didn't, but thanks for asking permission. Some towncred for that. You should unite behind the divine ABR wagon.

Inferring off of this, I think the multitude of kills is actually within the balance and if we kill Jigsaw we stop the rapid deaths. Pretty sure this was said D2 as well but I want to re-affirm it.

Yep I said this Day 2. It's a strong argument for lynching outside of the hoods to try and hit Jigsaw. If we did that, there would be 3 candidates:

BBmolla
Pisskop
GuiltyLion

One of those is Jigsaw. In theory, you could also put Vecna in there, but he has claimed and it seems pretty plausible.

[Gamma Emerald]

Later.

I am on my way to work as we speak.

Take the day off, this is life or death!!

dude what the fuck

[Battle Mage]

Just an FYI if we decide we want to lynch ABR today we should instead give him a day to hand off the key and revisit the next day

Plus like BM’s speculation means ABR isn’t likely to be Jigsaw anyway so that’s another reason to not lynch there yet

Yes, that's 1 argument for not lynching ABR. In fact, it's the only sensible argument I've heard all day, so kudos for that! But 1/3 still isn't the best odds.

I don't think we're getting that key back...

Sorry my last couple days have been way busier than anticipated.

I had a key that allows me to escape if I am in a game at any time. The key word is had, I gave it to ABR last night because he needed it more than me. Idk if the games with nothing happening were because of that yet because I have not read past like the first page of this Day.

How is it pro-town to reveal this now?

Because I knew I was in yesterday’s PoE and my goal was just to get it to someone I trusted, and with the fact two traps failed I assumed it might have been used.

I suppose I can't really blame you for this, I thought ABR was town yesterday too. But I can confirm he has not been in any traps during the game. Take from that what you will.

[Gamma Emerald]

I still kinda want to just lynch iDanyBoy or Gamma in a vacuum, they're my strongest independent scumreads.

Yesterday I felt that Blake was scum but given that ABR/BM are both still alive, I'm a little less eager to jump to a quick conclusion there. I'm also not sure it's something that has to be resolved today.

Guilty lion keeps posting exactly the thoughts that are in my head.

How did both ABR and BM survive both N1 and N2 after that D1?

It might be a scum ploy to make them look suspicious, but in this game town has plenty of stuff to be suspicious about already.

It stands out.

Also, blake and Drixx seem to have zero interest in thsi game at all. Drixx makes a post and its some talk about his internal mech thinking. Who does that after all the shit that has gone down as town, knowing you havent participated in the main threat at all (pretty much).

Also, that hammer on Xtox went through reallly really quickly.....

BM was being extremely arrogant and annoying yesterday about xtoxm. I suspect BM still is going to be playing incredibly stupidly for the rest of the game and thats why hes alive. BM also claimed bulletproof so make of that what you will.

I'm a VT, no powers.

I feel incredibly betrayed by xtoxm lynch yesterday and BM had no remorse whatsoever. He's just incredibly dumb.

VOTE: Blake

This turnaround on Xtoxm is curious

Wasn’t that one of the names in the D2 PoE? I definitely feel like ABR was on board with that D2

[Morning Tweet]

Yep I said this Day 2. It's a strong argument for lynching outside of the hoods to try and hit Jigsaw. If we did that, there would be 3 candidates:

BBmolla
Pisskop
GuiltyLion

One of those is Jigsaw. In theory, you could also put Vecna in there, but he has claimed and it seems pretty plausible.

Keep in mind one of these three is only jigsaw if your theory is correct, which we cant know yet
(* >ω<)

What do you think about letting ABR hand off the key tonight before lynching him another time?

pedit: nevermind

[Gamma Emerald]

Ayt. Pisskop wanna vote xtoxm?

VOTE: xtoxm

Yep as I recalled he was on it and on board with it

[Gamma Emerald]

Side note I now understand how Titus suddenly started hating D1

Because D1 this game was practically unplayable but after that it’s been fine

[Morning Tweet]

BM if ABR is town, we're gonna lose a key, another day, several ppl die, and quite frankly it doesnt feel like we'd learn a lot because we havent yet considered the other options

i beg u to consider possibly letting him live an additional day to hand the key off
(人･ω･)

[Battle Mage]

Later.

I am on my way to work as we speak.

Take the day off, this is life or death!!

dude what the fuck

I was kidding!

Battle Mage's Setup Theory

4 person survivor hood - includes 2 scum (Momo and ABR)
3 person FBI hood - NO SCUM
8 person (Cop?) hood - Likely only 1 scum, outside chance of 2.
No hood - Likely 2 scum, outside chance of 1.

I'll case ABR properly later, but wanted to set out my theory on the setup first. Reason for this is partly flavour (I spent the night phase reading up on all the Saw flavour!) and partly what I think the Mod would do to balance the game whilst making it consistent with the flavour.

Assumption:

Flavour consistency is very important to the Mod. So far, everyone in hoods, has conformed to the flavour of that hood. This INCLUDES SCUM. Momo had a fakeclaim of a town survivor, but his actual scum character was a survivor in the movies.

One of the premier baddies in Saw is a character called Amanda Young. She was also, notably, a Jigsaw Survivor. My hypothesis is that ABR is Amanda Young, and therefore my hood contained 2 scum originally.

There was only 1 cop who was a baddy in the franchise, Det Mark Hoffman. So he is presumably in the 8-person hood.

John Kramer (Jigsaw) would be outside of any hood. And the remaining scum, I theorise, is most likely to be Lawrence Gordon, who was a doctor, and wouldn't fit in any of the hoods either.

From a gameplay perspective, unbalanced number of scum in the hoods makes sense (to give false positives in the small hood, and everyone chasing shadows in the big hood with only 1 scum). Hoods with the right proportions of scum would be too town heavy, especially with the amount of PRs. Plus it's Saw, so the point is the game is meant to screw with you.

In the game that means:

ABR is scum.
There is 2 scum within: Pisskop, BBmola, Vecna and GuiltyLion
Blake and MorningTweet are town.
There is only 1 scum in big hood, which I still think is Danyboy (especially if ABR is scum, as he loves Danyboy). But we shouldn't be hitting here yet as we have lower mathematical odds of success.

Scum aren’t put into hoods where their own flavor would make sense, but their fakeclaim’s flavor. Albeit there’s enough Saw movies (8 by now?) that your theory can work does that change your thinking at all?

Had this conversation with MorningTweet - I believe scum ARE put into hoods where their own flavour would make sense, AND their fakeclaim's flavour. I could be wrong, but there's no evidence to suggest I am thus far.

I think what's been most interesting to me is that there are a great deal of people calling for BBMolla and Gamma's heads.

I have always had dave, Drixx, Blake, iDany at the bottom of my own list personally. I found admittedly not huge reasons to townread Gamma and BB. What is your guys reasons for suspecting BB/Gamma?

I only recall 1 person calling for Gamma's head? Great deal seems like an exaggeration.

Also is John Kramer Jigsaw’s (supposed?) fakeclaim flavor or his true identity?

John Kramer would be a terrible fake claim for Jigsaw. Cause John Kramer IS jigsaw.

Jigsaw's fakeclaim would be an entirely random victim or other side character somewhere in the movies

Got quite excited here, thinking someone had claimed John Kramer!

Jigsaw would, I expect, not be in any hoods.

I dont think we should focus on hoods and metrics and fakeclaims. Lynch scummy for being scummy

We can all agree that several people occupy the bottom tiers of most people's reads . . . so lets do a competing wagon on them.

These are convenient positions for somebody who, if this advice wasn't followed, would be one of the top contenders to be lynched.

[pisskop]

The key is secondary. Honestly, if he is scum and has a key, giving him a night to pass it on (to his scumbuddies) isnt going to help.

[pisskop]

These are convenient positions for somebody who, if this advice wasn't followed, would be one of the top contenders to be lynched.

Except I wouldnt?

[pisskop]

The only one vocalizing support for my lynch is you, bm, and we've all had to talk you down from the ledge already.

[pisskop]

BM is calling my disdain for his plan counter intuitive, but its actually a completely ass plan.

[Morning Tweet]

I felt like Gamma got mentioned by more than a few ppl but maybe im making that up. BB definitely was

[Morning Tweet]

The key is secondary. Honestly, if he is scum and has a key, giving him a night to pass it on (to his scumbuddies) isnt going to help.

Yeah true

what i mean is kinda think the risk of lynching ABR is starting to add up to me not wanting to lynch him due to the amount of downsides itd have if he's town. which is kinda what im thinking

[Gamma Emerald]

I am asking the mod a question and based on the answer I might have a plan.

[Battle Mage]

Ayt. Pisskop wanna vote xtoxm?

VOTE: xtoxm

Yep as I recalled he was on it and on board with it

Yes, he also fuelled it earlier by endorsing my case - in reality, we probably couldn't have lynched Xtoxm without ABR backing it.

Yep I said this Day 2. It's a strong argument for lynching outside of the hoods to try and hit Jigsaw. If we did that, there would be 3 candidates:

BBmolla
Pisskop
GuiltyLion

One of those is Jigsaw. In theory, you could also put Vecna in there, but he has claimed and it seems pretty plausible.

Keep in mind one of these three is only jigsaw if your theory is correct, which we cant know yet
(* >ω<)

What do you think about letting ABR hand off the key tonight before lynching him another time?

Actually no - I thought Jigsaw was not in a hood, WAY before I had my clever theory idea. I think that bit is fairly obvious right? Even if there isn't a clear link between flavour and hoods, you think Jigsaw would just be some random goon in a hood? Pfft, show the Mod some respect, he's not an animal.

If you wanted to test my theory, it's like I said earlier, we could lynch ABR and prove it one way or another. The alternative is we try and take a punt at hitting Jigsaw. I don't mind that play, but it's lower odds. And if your theory is right that Jigsaw is some randomer in a hood, then it could even be ABR!

BM if ABR is town, we're gonna lose a key, another day, several ppl die, and quite frankly it doesnt feel like we'd learn a lot because we havent yet considered the other options

i beg u to consider possibly letting him live an additional day to hand the key off
(人･ω･)

The key is secondary. Honestly, if he is scum and has a key, giving him a night to pass it on (to his scumbuddies) isnt going to help.

Agree with Pisskop here, and in addition, ABR has claimed VT. So IF he's town, even with the key, it might be better to lynch him than to out/kill any more town PRs.

[Gamma Emerald]

Well we already know Xtoxm's claim actually since he sent it to me via pm last night.

Yeah Blake, what do you think about dany?

She's just protecting Xtoxm dude, it's distraction tactics.

You've got my support but I think both should claim today.

VOTE: xtoxm

Ayt. Pisskop wanna vote xtoxm?

You say you feel extremely "betrayed" by the xtoxm wagon?

I was townreading Xtoxm. His idea Xtoxm was Jigsaw didn't even make any sense but I was too annoyed to fight for a blake lynch.

After the flip I just realized he wanted to kill xtoxm for personal reasons. I tried to get him on track yesterday but his confbias was too annoying to deal with for a whole day.

I feel disgusted by the whole thing and I should never give leadership up to BM or any inferior player.

Suuuure

Also the key giving can be roleblocked so I don’t think we can try to conf anything off the key so never mind the idea of sparing ABR for the key

Plus the fact he can give it to a buddy also wasn’t one I had fully considered.

[davesaz]

My question for Gamma wasn't about giving the key, it was about revealing who the key went to.
If ABR is town, doesn't get lynched, and scum are the ones making the choices on traps, it tells them who not to trap.
If ABR is scum and this information makes us want to not lynch him, then that's bad too.

[Battle Mage]

These are convenient positions for somebody who, if this advice wasn't followed, would be one of the top contenders to be lynched.

Except I wouldnt?

The only one vocalizing support for my lynch is you, bm, and we've all had to talk you down from the ledge already.

I'm not suggesting a lynch on you today at all! But to answer your first post above - if we lynched based on setup mechanics or whatever, which you didn't want to, my point was that you would be one of the top contenders (because you have no hood). Whereas lynching based on scummiest behaviour has you lower down the pecking order. So I stand by my point, but perhaps I wasn't clear about it.

The key is secondary. Honestly, if he is scum and has a key, giving him a night to pass it on (to his scumbuddies) isnt going to help.

Yeah true

what i mean is kinda think the risk of lynching ABR is starting to add up to me not wanting to lynch him due to the amount of downsides itd have if he's town. which is kinda what im thinking

In the dialogue we've had over the past several pages, I've never got the slightest impression that you wanted to lynch ABR. And I think you've gone to considerable leaps to persuade yourself and/or others that he shouldn't be lynched. In a normal situation, I would find this peculiar, or even scummy, behaviour irrespective of ABR's alignment.

[Gamma Emerald]

I still kinda want to just lynch iDanyBoy or Gamma in a vacuum, they're my strongest independent scumreads.

Yesterday I felt that Blake was scum but given that ABR/BM are both still alive, I'm a little less eager to jump to a quick conclusion there. I'm also not sure it's something that has to be resolved today.

Guilty lion keeps posting exactly the thoughts that are in my head.

How did both ABR and BM survive both N1 and N2 after that D1?

It might be a scum ploy to make them look suspicious, but in this game town has plenty of stuff to be suspicious about already.

It stands out.

Also, blake and Drixx seem to have zero interest in thsi game at all. Drixx makes a post and its some talk about his internal mech thinking. Who does that after all the shit that has gone down as town, knowing you havent participated in the main threat at all (pretty much).

Also, that hammer on Xtox went through reallly really quickly.....

BM was being extremely arrogant and annoying yesterday about xtoxm. I suspect BM still is going to be playing incredibly stupidly for the rest of the game and thats why hes alive. BM also claimed bulletproof so make of that what you will.

I'm a VT, no powers.

I feel incredibly betrayed by xtoxm lynch yesterday and BM had no remorse whatsoever. He's just incredibly dumb.

VOTE: Blake

Worth noting, ABR claimed on the first page of the PT "There are no VTs in this game".

So that was another lie then!

Basically today is simple: if I'm town, ABR is scum.

I'm gonna let all the personal digs slide, because I know I've got you nailed and you're panicking.

See I remembered it being role madness from the advertisements I saw and this affirms my suspicions.

@Dave the fact two games failed was why I claimed target, if they hadn’t I very likely wouldn’t have. But I figured whoever had it used it up and so I wanted to confirm that person as town and also remove some the stink that has surrounded me up to now.