Mini Normal 2141: The World of Tomorrow [Game over!]

[CantHateAPuppy]

959 is actually a good case on r2r from votato, makes me want to go back to my case on votato from d1 and figure out if i still agree with it. would be entirely happy at this point to resolve between votato/r2r from yesterday, still

yeah wtf. you can resolve that later. but today we lynch gamma. VOTE: gamma. thats L-1

ok well thats actually a hammer

just to be clear, it's highly unlikely votato didn't see VP's vote before him on gamma because of how MS notifies you when posts have been made between start post and end post

it's possible that he clicked through it or didn't realize, but i don't think votato has ever actually clarified how this happened. it's a little convenient if you ask me that he hammered scum on "accident" when he'd spent all day defending that scum

its unlikely, yet thats what happened. there are three scenarios i think are possible, but i have no idea which is true, since i didnt see a preview pane.
1) the post wasnt there when i started reading the page, but was there when i started replying, and i dont think this would cause a preview pane to appear, since the post is there while im crafting my post in the reply editor down below. possible, but i think i may have used quick reply, and probably would have hit preview post to make sure i didnt fuck up the formatting of my vote tags
2) the post showed up in preview and i missed it. possible, but unlikely.
3) we hit submit at virtually the same time, so while his post hit the server first, my post hit before the thread had updated to give a preview notice. im not sure if this is possible.

best case this is a stupid wifom argument you have going.

it's not a stupid wifom argument, i want to see what you claim in response. if you're actually town and are tunnelled into me maybe i shouldn't expect a different attitude here, but you have to agree that this is worth looking into, right?

like, let me put this another way. NPOM was a PR and probably figured he wouldn't get lynched. in the run up to his lynch he was concerned with whether he would claim or not and seemed to assume he wouldn't get lynched, which in his case is probably right.

so isn't it interesting that he got lynched anyways?

a spotlight needs to be shone on why, and naturally the two players who deserve the most interrogation here are you and Dunn. that's a pretty objective analysis imo, if you really think i'm scum you should be wondering why no one else in the town has thought of it until now. i'm not just tryign to single you out here

[votato]

i dont see why suspecting blair day 2 was bad. the progression seemed off, people picked up on that. some might have suspected that she was PR, but some of us didnt. seeing strange progressions and scumreading the person isnt scummy just because the person winds up being town. maybe i should have suspected that blair was a PR, but i never claimed to be good at this game.

[votato]

i feel like the hammer there was discussed and moved on from. unfortunate, but no reason to suspect foul play. you bringing it up this much later pings as reaching. why didnt you mention this on day 2, and in particular while we were all discussing the flip? why wait until im pressuring you and you're trying to start a counterwagon?

[CantHateAPuppy]

In this thread: people saying my hammer was bad, but when quick was saying to hammer the guy yesterday they didn't comment on that at all

That guy was a night 4 vigilante. Kind of a weird role for a mini normal

It is heavily implied that there is another vigilante,

because town killing into an even number of players in the day is bad (especially on night 4, where it brings the number from 5 people alive to 4 people alive, assuming no other kills or protects).

this is really interesting, in light of the fact that gamma later also seemed to think a second vigilante was a plausible claim, and there's not really any evidence that this is actually the case

[CantHateAPuppy]

If Gamma is scum, it may be worth hunting between R2R and Dunn tomorrow, as scum may have picked up the PR tells and slid on the wagon early.

blair made the same point i'm making now

so it isn't just some conspiracy i made up to try and frame you, votato

it's a reasonable question: did scum drive NPOM up to an early lynch on purpose? (quick, you say you want to discuss this so let's discuss this!)

[CantHateAPuppy]

Assuming Gamma is scum I'd guess Votato for partner.

They've tried to get 3 other wagons off the ground (r2r, midway, blair), and he also threw some shade at me pre-gamma vote just based off of my hammer. Post 1166 is scummy

would scum dunn try bussing scum votato here? would scum votato and scum dunn coordinate to drop the L-1 and the hammer on NPOM like that?

I'm thinking not. I think there's good odds one of dunn/votato is scum, and this might be where we need to resolve most atm

[CantHateAPuppy]

Something about puppy's catchup is off to me. Like they're pretending not to know about the most recent of events on purpose

Also you didn't comment on anything I said at all which gives me bad feelings

anything specific you want, let me know

otherwise, there wasn't much in the last page or so that looks answerable. "puppy pretending that he hasn't read the latest stuff" -- yeah, I got killed in another game and had time for this one and started where i left off. it's an understandable reason to sketch me, but it's not really something i can answer, either you believe me or don't /shrug

I was under the impression that you at least slightly scumread me. The way you talk to me feels off, like you're assuming I'm town here. Is anybody else seeing this weirdness?

this is two times dunn throws some shade at me. (and this is actually throwing shade, where he calls me scummy so other people will notice while phrasing it as though he's talking to me) but afaik right now he had me as town and he later comes and sheeps my votato case:

after reading blair's arguments yesterday i really want to go after quick or votato, blair clearly felt pressured yesterday and i'm not sure that was all town pressing her

idk about this argument. If you're referring to the claim that was all quick's doing.

I do see Votato as scummy/scum with Gamma

VOTE: Votato

[CantHateAPuppy]

i dont see why suspecting blair day 2 was bad. the progression seemed off, people picked up on that. some might have suspected that she was PR, but some of us didnt. seeing strange progressions and scumreading the person isnt scummy just because the person winds up being town. maybe i should have suspected that blair was a PR, but i never claimed to be good at this game.

i don't think i called it bad, i think it's just interesting. you took a strong side on blair v. gamma before there was a claim and most players didn't. so that's something to consider when analyzing your slot. i actually think it's a point in favor of you being town, because i don't know if scum would defend gamma that hard when there was no special reason to.

i feel like the hammer there was discussed and moved on from. unfortunate, but no reason to suspect foul play.

you bringing it up this much later pings as reaching.

why didnt you mention this on day 2, and in particular while we were all discussing the flip? why wait until im pressuring you and you're trying to start a counterwagon?

it's not reaching. i am genuinely trying to solve the game. you will see this when i flip green and then you'll know that i genuinely think i made a good point

and it doesn't stop being a good point just because some people discussed it already or because i missed when other people did discuss it. actually, i think i've made a novel point here i haven't seen discussed, because i think I (i guess blair too) am the only person speculating if scum thought NPOM was a PR and lynched early on purpose

[CantHateAPuppy]

why wait until im pressuring you and you're trying to start a counterwagon?

by the way

why does it matter if i'm trying to start a counterwagon? of course i want someone else lynched. that's part of my wincon. "not wanting to get lynched" is maybe the most null indicator in the game.

i think i've accepted at this point that a few players want to lynch me, it sounds like it's just a failure to communicate, most of the things people find scummy just seem to be my style of dipping in and out of the thread and asking questions in the way i ask questions. can't really do anything about that. but if you guys are going to mislynch me i'd rather have dug up some good scumreads for you guys to follow later because, as i've said, i don't think y'all knowing i'm green will actually move town that much closer toward lynching the real scum

[mavsfan41]

Post 1904 & 1905 throw around 3 names. Dunn, R2R, and votato. I don’t see where you’re focused as you’ve tried to make random cases for all here (other than R2R I see).

What you’re suggesting in 1905 is that scum!Dunn has bus’ed BOTH scum!Gamma AND scum!votato? That’s your suggestion? 1906 furthers the scum!Dunn theory.

So are you now suggesting a votato/Dunn pairing?

[votato]

If Gamma is scum, it may be worth hunting between R2R and Dunn tomorrow, as scum may have picked up the PR tells and slid on the wagon early.

blair made the same point i'm making now

so it isn't just some conspiracy i made up to try and frame you, votato

it's a reasonable question: did scum drive NPOM up to an early lynch on purpose? (quick, you say you want to discuss this so let's discuss this!)

blair's point is that we should be looking at the early parts of the gamma wagon, not the late parts of the NPOM wagon. blair thinks maybe dunn started bussing early because dunn saw the claim coming. dunn was also late on the NPOM wagon, which means if gamma is right and you are right then it really implicates dunn.

[CantHateAPuppy]

i'm basically all finished redigesting the game now, apologies for all the thread spam everybody else. i'll try to condense my thoughts in a few key points:

Vote Count 1.10 (Final)

NoPowerOverMe

[/b] (7): Atarashi Hajimari, Quick, mavsfan41,

Blair

, votato, ready2rock, Dunnstral

ready2rock

(5): VP Baltar,

Gammagooey

,

CantLynchAPuppy, Nauci, NoPowerOverMe

votato

(1): iDanyboy

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.[/area][/color]

[/quote]

* the wagon on NPOM badly needs resolving. there are too many unflipped slots there.

* Quick / Votato / Dunn are the slots that need resolving most for the game to start to make sense

* Votato / Dunn should be scrutinized extra carefully on the theory that scum might have wanted NPOM lynched without a chance to claim (but I don't think they're scum together)

* VPB is probably not scum if Gamma felt comfortable joining a wagon with him. I don't think two scum would sit on r2r like that D1.

* r2r is probably town given the way gamma kept pushing him D1 and D2. that looks more like a genuine attempt at a mislynch than a bus.

[CantHateAPuppy]

Post 1904 & 1905 throw around 3 names. Dunn, R2R, and votato. I don’t see where you’re focused as you’ve tried to make

random cases

for all here (other than R2R I see).

you see random cases, i see myself trying to examine the game from a lot of angles and solve it

i know i can't convince you this is the case, i guess, but i have pointed out a few times now that when i ask questions and post my thoughts i'm not just trying to sink my teeth into an easy lynch. (if i had wanted to do this i think i've passed up a few better opportunities tbh)

What you’re suggesting in 1905 is that scum!Dunn has bus’ed BOTH scum!Gamma AND scum!votato? That’s your suggestion? 1906 furthers the scum!Dunn theory.

So are you now suggesting a votato/Dunn pairing?

no, i think only one of votato/dunn would be scum, they dont' make sense together. at the same time, i think the odds that exactly one of them are scum is extremely high

[CantHateAPuppy]

blair's point is that we should be looking at the early parts of the gamma wagon, not the late parts of the NPOM wagon. blair thinks maybe dunn started bussing early because dunn saw the claim coming. dunn was also late on the NPOM wagon, which means if gamma is right and you are right then it really implicates dunn.

ah, shoot, i got my thread places mixed up, this is after blair claims

i still think it's fair to wonder if scum quicklynched NPOM on purpose. he definitely thought he would have a chance to claim and then didn't, which is mildly suggestive

[VP Baltar]

Quick -- is there a meaningful difference between midway and hellbrooks this game?

My case for hellbrooks being a good choice would be that she is waffling more than I think is reasonable, she could definitely fit with Gamma, and she is posting plenty in GD on her other account ... so she is clearly around more than we are seeing.

[ready2rock]

VOTE: Hellbooks

OK, so after rereading day 3 last night, I think either puppy and hellbooks should be the lynch today. Out of these two, I think that hellbooks has come out of today looking scummiest overall. As others mentioned, it’s jumping out to me the way that she’ll post something that seems like it has the implication of a read without actually giving a read. 1602 for example, where she starts calling puppy into question, without actually committing to a read herself.

Then she jumps back into the thread and votes puppy with absolutely no explanation or case (1811), then unvotes, again with no explanation the second puppy is put at L-1, and says both that she doesn’t like a post that’s give (again, doesn’t explain why) in 1828, then the very next post that puppy makes she said feels towny (1834). On top of that, in 1830 she tries to get attention away from puppy by fishing for if she can get a lynch on me going out of nowhere. All in all it’s fence sitting in a way that feels extremely scummy to me

As for puppy, in rereading I was trying to track down a concrete or comprehensive case on puppy last night and just couldn’t find anything. Besides what I said in my last post about constantly going back and forth on mavs and votato, the biggest strike against puppy to me is the way they just disappeared for most of day 2 and the start of day 3, though I think lack of effort is probably an overall null tell. As for others’ cases, it is curious that it took until we put puppy at L-1 in order to them to start putting effort in, and I think that’s the biggest strike against puppy atm, but I see the hellbooks case is more solid right now.

Would still like hellbooks and midway to answer the questions I asked them in my previous post

[Quick]

Quick -- is there a meaningful difference between midway and hellbrooks this game?

My case for hellbrooks being a good choice would be that she is waffling more than I think is reasonable, she could definitely fit with Gamma, and she is posting plenty in GD on her other account ... so she is clearly around more than we are seeing.

VOTE: Hellbooks

OK, so after rereading day 3 last night, I think either puppy and hellbooks should be the lynch today. Out of these two, I think that hellbooks has come out of today looking scummiest overall. As others mentioned, it’s jumping out to me the way that she’ll post something that seems like it has the implication of a read without actually giving a read. 1602 for example, where she starts calling puppy into question, without actually committing to a read herself.

Then she jumps back into the thread and votes puppy with absolutely no explanation or case (1811), then unvotes, again with no explanation the second puppy is put at L-1, and says both that she doesn’t like a post that’s give (again, doesn’t explain why) in 1828, then the very next post that puppy makes she said feels towny (1834). On top of that, in 1830 she tries to get attention away from puppy by fishing for if she can get a lynch on me going out of nowhere. All in all it’s fence sitting in a way that feels extremely scummy to me

As for puppy, in rereading I was trying to track down a concrete or comprehensive case on puppy last night and just couldn’t find anything. Besides what I said in my last post about constantly going back and forth on mavs and votato, the biggest strike against puppy to me is the way they just disappeared for most of day 2 and the start of day 3, though I think lack of effort is probably an overall null tell. As for others’ cases, it is curious that it took until we put puppy at L-1 in order to them to start putting effort in, and I think that’s the biggest strike against puppy atm, but I see the hellbooks case is more solid right now.

Would still like hellbooks and midway to answer the questions I asked them in my previous post

You both make sense here.

I think VP is right that there is essentially no difference between midway and hellbooks. The difference is that hellbooks can be teamed with votato and midway can be teamed with Puppy. Any way you slice it between those three, it will tell us something about the rest of the players in the game, I think.

I like R2R's point that there hasn't really been a "case" on Puppy at this point in the game. That's a small difference, but it IS a difference.

I am going to go ahead and try and work with Town and...

VOTE: hellbooks

That's L-1

[Dunnstral]

Guess who I've been voting all day puppy

[CantHateAPuppy]

i think hellbooks having doubts isn't a compelling point. uncertain ideas is just as much a town tell as a scum tell, it could show a mind struggling to work out the game. (@VP: what is a reasonable amount of waffling?)

A hellbooks lynch at least resolves one of the slots on NPOM wagon, although since Atarashi was so inactive D1 I don't think it will really clear up much.

however looking at the hellbooks iso i agree that there's not much there and i might be willing to hammer if that continues.

personally, i'd still rather lynch in votato/dunn/quick.

p-edit: yeah dunn i still want to lynch votato. but don't tell me my VCA on D1 makes no sense at all.

[ready2rock]

i think hellbooks having doubts isn't a compelling point. uncertain ideas is just as much a town tell as a scum tell, it could show a mind struggling to work out the game.

Not in the way that she was on and off your wagon, it came across to me as not wanting to pin down her position on you so that she could set herself up to take whatever vague position she wanted after your flip.

Plus, weren't you one of the people on quick's case earlier today for changing his reads so much?

[votato]

wait im just realizing hellbooks is atarashi. hmmm.... im ok with hammering that slot in 24 hours pending claim. why could i be scum with that slot? also why cant puppy midway be scum with hellbooks?

[ready2rock]

wait im just realizing hellbooks is atarashi. hmmm.... im ok with hammering that slot in 24 hours pending claim. why could i be scum with that slot? also why cant puppy midway be scum with hellbooks?

This strikes me as a question worth asking people, including yourself

If we get a hellbooks flip, what do you think that tells us about the remaining scum? Especially if hellbooks flips scum?

[midwaybear]

yep I'm fine with hellbooks lynch
If she is town, then votato looks worse and vice versa. Not sure about others.

[Quick]

yep I'm fine with hellbooks lynch
If she is town, then votato looks worse and vice versa. Not sure about others.

You have it opposite. If hellbooks flips red votato looks worse and you look worse.

That being said, midway is fine with a hellbooks flip? Saying it's fine if they are green? That doesn't make a whole lot of sense and seems kinda TMI.

Also, I really don't care who we flip between midway/Puppy/hellbooks. hellbooks is good based on content, but they are too wishy washy. I will concentrate my efforts on Puppy/midway if hellbooks flips green. I also think if we have any investigative powers then I expect those to be on Puppy. I wouldn't mind a Vig on one of the remaining two either.

[votato]

mm i have a strong preference for lynching in midway or puppy, but im ok with hellbooks. i at least think we should get a claim and use this opportunity to force more reads out of the slot.